CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 1:00 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/25/2013 12:52 PM, Leon wrote:

Understood, I was talking more about the actual drawn dimension having
limitations to their resolution.

Like this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink


;)




No, can you think/tell me what that converts to as a fraction off the
top of your head? LOL My calculated industries calculator can't
either. ;~)

I like to see fractions, on my drawings, that I can actually come close
to reproducing. ;~)


A bit off topic, I checked the outside temp a few minutes ago,
42.51232367 degrees F.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 1:20 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/25/2013 1:17 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/25/2013 12:56 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/25/2013 12:34 PM, Leon wrote:
I think the biggest problem with this whole thread is that the OP
posted
to wood working and metal working. His first item on his wish list was
for wood boards and followed by stuff you make at home. He had the
knowledge of 2D CAD programs so he was not totally ignorant of what to
use but IMHO he wanted to do 3D for, most likely, less than extreme
resolution drawings.


My bet is that the OP would be much more than perfectly happy with this
for his simple "3-D metal" drawings:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-n...0/Untitled.jpg




:)

And for the most part a majority in this thread! LOL. There are a few
that may not be and rightfully so but just because I drive a Maserati
does not mean I use it to it's limits. The Camry works just fine and in
many practical ways out performs the Maserati.


LOL ... just ragging on you a bit, Bubba. ;)


I know! LOL Idle hands. Too friggen cold in the shop.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

Leon wrote:

On 11/25/2013 11:23 AM, jim wrote:



Snip


A program like Sketchup caters to people who want to
model something that looks good without paying much attention
precise numbers. But that doesn't mean it is sloppy. It just
means it is not as easy to hit the exact numbers you may want as
in other programs that cater to people who want models driven
by precise numerical inputs instead of mouse actions.


I'm going to take exception to your wording in your last paragraph.
Maybe I misunderstood.

I was an AutoCAD user for about 8 years, other CAD programs since 1986.

Anyway I am a furniture designer and builder. I have completely
converted over to Sketchup.

Now where I might be confused with your wording is that if I draw
something that is 4" long it is precisely 4" If I draw 4.015625, I get
a line that is 4 1/64" long, precisely.


Yes. I said you can do it if you want to, but the program
is obviously targeted at people who want to use the mouse
for input.

What gives you that thought.

I looked at their promotional videos. I didn't see anything
showing off its abilities to make numerically driven
models. It looks like it may be okay for cabinet work, but
what about something like making the scroll on a violin?

http://www.gussetviolins.com/untitled-1.jpg
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...KN7lYyduBV9mZg

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 1:27 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/25/2013 1:00 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/25/2013 12:52 PM, Leon wrote:

Understood, I was talking more about the actual drawn dimension having
limitations to their resolution.

Like this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink



;)




No, can you think/tell me what that converts to as a fraction off the
top of your head? LOL My calculated industries calculator can't
either. ;~)

I like to see fractions, on my drawings, that I can actually come close
to reproducing. ;~)


A bit off topic, I checked the outside temp a few minutes ago,
42.51232367 degrees F.

ROTFLMAO


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 1:33 PM, jim wrote:


Leon wrote:

On 11/25/2013 11:23 AM, jim wrote:



Snip


A program like Sketchup caters to people who want to
model something that looks good without paying much attention
precise numbers. But that doesn't mean it is sloppy. It just
means it is not as easy to hit the exact numbers you may want as
in other programs that cater to people who want models driven
by precise numerical inputs instead of mouse actions.


I'm going to take exception to your wording in your last paragraph.
Maybe I misunderstood.

I was an AutoCAD user for about 8 years, other CAD programs since 1986.

Anyway I am a furniture designer and builder. I have completely
converted over to Sketchup.

Now where I might be confused with your wording is that if I draw
something that is 4" long it is precisely 4" If I draw 4.015625, I get
a line that is 4 1/64" long, precisely.


Yes. I said you can do it if you want to, but the program
is obviously targeted at people who want to use the mouse
for input.

What gives you that thought.

I looked at their promotional videos. I didn't see anything
showing off its abilities to make numerically driven
models. It looks like it may be okay for cabinet work, but
what about something like making the scroll on a violin?

http://www.gussetviolins.com/untitled-1.jpg
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...KN7lYyduBV9mZg


Should not be a problem. Actually I just down loaded one from the 3D
warehouse, rather the whole violin.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11054578036/

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

Swingman wrote:
On 11/25/2013 1:27 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/25/2013 1:00 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/25/2013 12:52 PM, Leon wrote:

Understood, I was talking more about the actual drawn dimension
having limitations to their resolution.

Like this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink



;)




No, can you think/tell me what that converts to as a fraction off the
top of your head? LOL My calculated industries calculator can't
either. ;~)

I like to see fractions, on my drawings, that I can actually come
close to reproducing. ;~)


A bit off topic, I checked the outside temp a few minutes ago,
42.51232367 degrees F.

ROTFLMAO

Would you two quit arguing? This is getting embarassing...

--

-Mike-

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

Swingman on Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:54:00 -0600 typed in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 11/25/2013 12:25 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:00:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
I am a woodworker and routinely work with pieces that measure in 1/8"
resolution

Oh..you work to .125 tolerances then?

When "woodworking", depends upon what you're making/measuring.

In a construction project, .0125" is generally what a framing carpenter
shoots for when measuring for a cut.

Did you mean 1/8th of an inch, or 1/80th of an inch? The former
is reasonable, the later, not so much.

Whereas a trim carpenter would probably base most of his measurements on
.03125".

to the nearest 32nd of an inch. Hmm ...

In a piece of fine furniture or cabinetry, .015625" is often not
acceptable due to its obvious visibility, or when needing parts to be
square.

Why not? What is so fantastic about 1/64th of an inch?



--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

Swingman on Sun, 24 Nov 2013 08:51:59 -0600 typed in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 11/24/2013 8:15 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

There's an old (perhaps true) mythos about when Royce/Rolls first
introduced an automatic transmission. They were adamant about making it
to much tighter tolerances than "consumer" trannies, because they
demanded the utmost in 'quality'. Then they discovered that the valve
body and shuttles HAD to be sloppy in order to work at all. G

John Browning's 1911 .45ACP:

With too tight tolerances, the pistol is unreliable in combat conditions
due to mud, dirt, dust and the debris of a combat environment, and the
guaranteed likelihood of not being able to keep it clean and lubricated
on a regular basis.

That built in sloppiness sacrificed accuracy for reliability, but made
for an excellent tradeoff for a weapon used mostly in close quarters.

Same goes for the AK-47.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

User Bp on Mon, 25 Nov 2013 02:21:44 +0000 (UTC)
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
In rec.crafts.metalworking Gunner Asch wrote:

Ayup...aerospace requires 50 millions or half 10ths all the time.

Which is damned hard to do with machines that hold +/- 2 tenths

Gunner

Yes, but that's how we got where we are. After all, somebody had to
start with rocks and sticks. I'd still like to see a readable account
of how it's done. Moore's "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" gives
a good start, but the narrative is hard to follow beyond the basics.

It is one of those spirals, that each improvement in one area,
eventually chases around until you are back where you were, wishing
you had a "better" one of "these" to take advantage of the new and
improved other thing. The invention of "tool steel", then tungsten
carbide, then ceramics, all let more material be removed per pass, but
after a while, the machines are too slow, so you need faster machines
(meaning bearing, among other things) and more rigid machines to keep
the cutting edge where you want / need / expect it, and then "better"
measuring devices in order to tell the difference, and so on and so
forth.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

"Michael A. Terrell" on Mon, 25 Nov 2013
01:12:21 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Richard wrote:

Now THAT'S an old computer - rock for zero, stick for one...

You just had to stick that in here, didn't you? ;-)

He's lucky he had sticks. All we had were the rocks and sand.
Rock/no rock. that's all we had. http://xkcd.com/505/
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

Gunner Asch on Sun, 24 Nov 2013 23:06:41 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

OTOH, I have worked places where we measured each part, trying to
keep up with the thermal expansion as the day warmed up.

Which is why most good inspection departments are kept at 68' and is
so noted on the print.
Had one of my clients crank out some 1500 parts EXACTLY to spec...in
August. and their air conditioning was down for a week or so.

When they went to the clients QA...they were considerably smaller
than expected. Fortunately..it was a RCH this side of being in
tolerance..if you held your head just right...but it was the first
time in 15 yrs that either side got into a ****ing contest with each
other. And it wasnt Boeing ..but MD.

Company I was at for a while, one of the guys pointed at a part,
sitting on the floor. It was right at the minimum of the +/-
tolerance. As this was a part which would be under a lot of pressure
on a ship at sea, the company and the customer were going round and
round as to whether or not it met the spec. Good news: they weren't
going to take it out of Jim's pay, as it was twice what he made a
year.

You were just cutting parts for Boing! that required .03 tolerances.
Some of their other stuff...very small tenths

Probably over in the hard metal's side of the house. But then
again, I was just knocking out Aluminum stuff in a high speed
production shop.

Speaking of RCH...do our woodworking compadres know about RCH and the
other colors of tolerance?

RCH - Real Cherry Hardwood?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com on Mon, 25 Nov
2013 11:49:47 -0600 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet fired this volley in
m:

I am a woodworker and routinely work with pieces that measure in 1/8"
resolution however the program is quite capable of accurately and quite
quickly drawing a box that is 4 1/16 x 5 3/64 x 9 19/32.

If I were using it for woodworking, I assume those accuracies would be
adequate, if a little gross for a CNC router...

But I work daily with sub-thousandth measurements. Do you really
understand how funny dealing with "thirty-secondths" sounds to a
metalworker?

As the watchmaker's apprentice said when seeing a 1/4-28 tap "My
God, I didn't know they made them that big!"
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

And for the most part a majority in this thread! LOL. There are a few
that may not be and rightfully so but just because I drive a Maserati does
not mean I use it to it's limits. The Camry works just fine and in many
practical ways out performs the Maserati.

Far be it for me to criticize you Leon (you do good work) but I just can not
visualize you in a Camry. ;)

But your point is well taken.

Reminds me of a job I did years ago. I was working with corporate
publications and was hired to figure out the best way to send out
publications to a select group that needed updates on a semiregular basis.
I checked out several types of binding and distribution. My conclusion? 3
ring binders! I got them in contact with a source to make them up some
binders and dividers.. And it was a success. They just copied the
material on 3 hole sheets and sent it out. Simple. And better than any
other alternative. Simple trumps complicated crap every time. Particularly
if it gets the job done quick and easily.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 3:46 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
"Michael A. on Mon, 25 Nov 2013
01:12:21 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Richard wrote:

Now THAT'S an old computer - rock for zero, stick for one...

You just had to stick that in here, didn't you? ;-)

He's lucky he had sticks. All we had were the rocks and sand.
Rock/no rock. that's all we had.http://xkcd.com/505/
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


But we LIKED it!

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 3:46 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Why not? What is so fantastic about 1/64th of an inch?

Nothing ... totally opposite of "fantastic".

In short, errors in precision, no matter how small, are cumulative and
effect how things join, and whether or not they maintain a desired
property, like parallel.

A 1/64" gap in a joint, or between boards in a panel, is highly visible.

Any piece where an angle, or worse, a compound angle, is the norm
(chairs, bow front tables, splayed table legs, etc) 1/64" of an inch
deviation at 12" is roughly 3/16" at 48", which means parts don't meet,
and/or are not flush along their surfaces/edges, or are not the desired
angle when they do.

A 1/64" variance in material _thickness_ will play havoc with the way
other parts fit together.

Cumulative error is the bugaboo of any endeavors, including woodworking,
where precision is required.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 4:09 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:


"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

And for the most part a majority in this thread! LOL. There are a
few that may not be and rightfully so but just because I drive a
Maserati does not mean I use it to it's limits. The Camry works just
fine and in many practical ways out performs the Maserati.

Far be it for me to criticize you Leon (you do good work) but I just can
not visualize you in a Camry. ;)

LOL, Then picture me on a Maserati. ;~) Actually a 2012 Camry SE V6
and 07 Tundra.







But your point is well taken.

Reminds me of a job I did years ago. I was working with corporate
publications and was hired to figure out the best way to send out
publications to a select group that needed updates on a semiregular
basis. I checked out several types of binding and distribution. My
conclusion? 3 ring binders! I got them in contact with a source to
make them up some binders and dividers.. And it was a success. They
just copied the material on 3 hole sheets and sent it out. Simple.
And better than any other alternative. Simple trumps complicated crap
every time. Particularly if it gets the job done quick and easily.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 4:22 PM, Swingman wrote:

1/64" of an inch deviation at 12" is roughly 3/16" at 48

Meant to say roughly "doubled".


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 4:24 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/25/2013 4:09 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:


"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

And for the most part a majority in this thread! LOL. There are a
few that may not be and rightfully so but just because I drive a
Maserati does not mean I use it to it's limits. The Camry works just
fine and in many practical ways out performs the Maserati.

Far be it for me to criticize you Leon (you do good work) but I just can
not visualize you in a Camry. ;)

LOL, Then picture me on a Maserati. ;~) Actually a 2012 Camry SE V6 and
07 Tundra.



Leon, you need to come check in at ToyotaNation(dot)com forums.
All the cool kids hang out there.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:24:02 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 09:42:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in
message . 3.70...
"Mike Marlow" fired this volley in
:


D'Oh! Ok - guess that proves I'm not a machinist. What happened
to
the 100 thousandth though? Wouldn't half a tenth be 50 one
hundred
thousandths?

yes, but that's not common 'jargon'.

Most machinists work to somewhere between 1 and 5 tenths (of a
thousandth
of an inch). Some work to major fractions of a 'tenth' -- half,
quarter,
whatnot... and they usually express it that way, saying stuff like,
"half
a tenth".

A very few work to less, and then they mostly discuss micro-inches.
Lloyd

The downfeed on my 1940's-vintage surface grinder is graduated in
half tenths.
jsw

I wrote that wrong. The graduations are 0.0005" apart.

Resolution accuracy

I feel a bit like Bill in this thread. I thought I had a pretty good handle
on measurements, fractions, and all that crap. It's been a bit embarassing
to have exposed my lack of understanding when it comes to how machinists
measure things, and even more so to have missed at least one point to that
effect, in this thread. But - despite my apparent lack of ability to read,
this has been an enjoyable thread for me. One more thing learned before I
die. Bill is very good at that part of life - likes to learn and is not
afraid to do so. That's where I feel a bit like him with what's been
discussed here.

The guys that have been patient in responding to my obvious ignorance have
been great - especially Gunner (who I see over in rec.guns quite a bit).
Gunner - ping me at the email address below - with the obvious deletion.

Sorry again for my density. It's the Uki blood. Or, just simple density...

Dont feel small or inferior....(Grin)....its just a field that you
probably really didnt know existed ...in the gut.

I really..really appreciate a skilled wood working craftsman. You lads
turn out some absolutely georgious and beautiful work. And thats
something that most metalworkers have a hard time doing.

The world view between the two skillsets..while somewhat similar...is
different enough that we can be worlds apart..and have to really work
our brains to do work in wood. Oh..I can cut, screw and nail dried
vegitable matter together neatly. But it will NEVER be...art.

Gunner

pinged your email addy.


__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Heinlein

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 09:24:59 -0600, jim
wrote:



wrote:

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 18:22:26 -0600, jim
wrote:



wrote:

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 17:08:14 -0600, jim
wrote:



wrote:


People have been making things flat or round to that level of
precision for ages.

Flat and round (spherical) are trivial problems and as you note it's
been done for ages, at least since the middle ages.

And there isn't much advantage in having a
CAD model for those shapes.

There isn't much reason to have a CAD model for a board, either, but
when you want to put a few dozen of them together, having a CAD model
gets rather interesting.


Other shapes are
more difficult, as is size.

And it is doubtful there is anyone reading this who
is cutting complex shapes from CAD models with precision
held to tenths.

Huh??? Have you ever heard of a mirror, or lens, system? Please
explain your statement?

How many have you modeled in CAD and then manufactured
to within tenth of the designed part?

You still make no sense. Are you saying that precision machining
doesn't require the same level of modeling that sloppier work does?
Really?

First of all most of the examples of precision that have
been given involve no 3d modeling at all. And the rest
appear to be at best 2d modeling (e.g.. a lathe profile).

Ah, so neither Boeing or GE use 3-D modeling to design airplanes or
engines. They hand draw anything that requires precision. Got it.

I'm saying that any CAD system can produce geometry that
is far more accurate than any manufacturing process. If a 3d
computer model has dimensions that are different than what you
like them to be, it is because of the input the software was
given, not because the software is sloppy.

A program like Sketchup caters to people who want to
model something that looks good without paying much attention
precise numbers. But that doesn't mean it is sloppy. It just
means it is not as easy to hit the exact numbers you may want as
in other programs that cater to people who want models driven
by precise numerical inputs instead of mouse actions.

Absurd. You *clearly* don't have a clue.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 17:09:48 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:



"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote

And for the most part a majority in this thread! LOL. There are a few
that may not be and rightfully so but just because I drive a Maserati does
not mean I use it to it's limits. The Camry works just fine and in many
practical ways out performs the Maserati.

Far be it for me to criticize you Leon (you do good work) but I just can not
visualize you in a Camry. ;)

But your point is well taken.

Reminds me of a job I did years ago. I was working with corporate
publications and was hired to figure out the best way to send out
publications to a select group that needed updates on a semiregular basis.
I checked out several types of binding and distribution. My conclusion? 3
ring binders! I got them in contact with a source to make them up some
binders and dividers.. And it was a success. They just copied the
material on 3 hole sheets and sent it out. Simple. And better than any
other alternative. Simple trumps complicated crap every time. Particularly
if it gets the job done quick and easily.




True indeed. On the other hand..simple isnt always "simple"

Build a grade 8 ball bearing.

Its simple.

Then do a grade 9

It too is simple...

Grin



__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Heinlein

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:49:49 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com on Mon, 25 Nov
2013 11:49:47 -0600 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet fired this volley in
om:

I am a woodworker and routinely work with pieces that measure in 1/8"
resolution however the program is quite capable of accurately and quite
quickly drawing a box that is 4 1/16 x 5 3/64 x 9 19/32.

If I were using it for woodworking, I assume those accuracies would be
adequate, if a little gross for a CNC router...

But I work daily with sub-thousandth measurements. Do you really
understand how funny dealing with "thirty-secondths" sounds to a
metalworker?

As the watchmaker's apprentice said when seeing a 1/4-28 tap "My
God, I didn't know they made them that big!"
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


ROFLMAO!!

Gunner, with a 1 1/8"x 10 x 1 1/2" x 11 tap on his desk


__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Heinlein

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:49:42 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/25/2013 12:25 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:00:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I am a woodworker and routinely work with pieces that measure in 1/8"
resolution

Oh..you work to .125 tolerances then?



No, that is not what I said, I said I routinely work with pieces that
measure in 1/8" resolution. The tolerances have to be much greater for
a joint to disappear.

Grin

There is a difference between resolution and tolerance. They are not
the same. I simply choose to design using 1/8" as my smallest
increment. The cuts have to be as close to that measurement as
possible. A piece that calls to be 48.125" needs to be as close to that
as possible. 48.120" is way not close enough if you don't want the
joint to stick out like a sore thumb.

Then stack on top of that the wood greatly changes shape, relative to
steel, depending on the relative humidity and a project may have several
hundred pieces that interlock with each other. We wood workers work in
pretty tight tolerances too but don't draw project pieces to sizes that
include minute fractions for the sake of having odd lengths and widths.
I realize this is required in smaller sized metal working projects
where size dictates higher precision.

And in big ones too. As Pytor indicated...he turned 30' shafts that
were in .0004 tolerance. 30 Foot shafts.

Gunner











__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
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CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:54:00 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 11/25/2013 12:25 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:00:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I am a woodworker and routinely work with pieces that measure in 1/8"
resolution

Oh..you work to .125 tolerances then?

When "woodworking", depends upon what you're making/measuring.

In a construction project, .0125" is generally what a framing carpenter
shoots for when measuring for a cut.

Whereas a trim carpenter would probably base most of his measurements on
.03125".

In a piece of fine furniture or cabinetry, .015625" is often not
acceptable due to its obvious visibility, or when needing parts to be
square.

Leon, being a master craftsman, more than likely sets his drawing
"precision" for critical projects when using SketchUp to 1/64", which
gives you a roundup of 1/32" for cutting dimensions on a shop drawings.

That said, most learn quickly to batch cut like parts so that any error
in like components still make for consistent, same size parts.

True indeed. Now if we made stuff that was .015624...we call em
blacksmith fits

Hammer to shape, file to fit..paint to cover.

(Grin)

Gunner

__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Heinlein

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On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:22:02 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 11/25/2013 3:46 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Why not? What is so fantastic about 1/64th of an inch?

Nothing ... totally opposite of "fantastic".

In short, errors in precision, no matter how small, are cumulative and
effect how things join, and whether or not they maintain a desired
property, like parallel.

Yah think?

A 1/64" gap in a joint, or between boards in a panel, is highly visible.

Try it in a engine block.

Any piece where an angle, or worse, a compound angle, is the norm
(chairs, bow front tables, splayed table legs, etc) 1/64" of an inch
deviation at 12" is roughly 3/16" at 48", which means parts don't meet,
and/or are not flush along their surfaces/edges, or are not the desired
angle when they do.

A 1/64" variance in material _thickness_ will play havoc with the way
other parts fit together.

Cumulative error is the bugaboo of any endeavors, including woodworking,
where precision is required.

Indeed it is!!

Gunner

__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Heinlein

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On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:27:31 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/25/2013 1:00 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/25/2013 12:52 PM, Leon wrote:

Understood, I was talking more about the actual drawn dimension having
limitations to their resolution.

Like this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink


;)




No, can you think/tell me what that converts to as a fraction off the
top of your head? LOL My calculated industries calculator can't
either. ;~)

I like to see fractions, on my drawings, that I can actually come close
to reproducing. ;~)


A bit off topic, I checked the outside temp a few minutes ago,
42.51232367 degrees F.

Weather is usally single digit precision. Usually.

(Grin)




__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Heinlein

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"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
On 11/25/2013 12:25 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:00:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I am a woodworker and routinely work with pieces that measure in
1/8"
resolution

Oh..you work to .125 tolerances then?

No, that is not what I said, I said I routinely work with pieces
that measure in 1/8" resolution. The tolerances have to be much
greater for a joint to disappear.

There is a difference between resolution and tolerance. They are
not the same. I simply choose to design using 1/8" as my smallest
increment. The cuts have to be as close to that measurement as
possible. A piece that calls to be 48.125" needs to be as close to
that as possible. 48.120" is way not close enough if you don't want
the joint to stick out like a sore thumb.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granularity

For my circuit board layouts granularity was the snap-to grid spacing,
usually 0.010" or 0.0125" which are 1/100 or 1/80 of an inch.

The resolution was usually 0.002", the size step between track widths
and pad diameters.

The accuracy of the CAD data was 1 micron.

The tolerance was defined as how much larger a pad must be than the
hole drilled through it, to ensure that the drilled hole didn't break
through the outer circumference. IOW it was the allowable
misregistration between the etched copper circuit and the drill
machine. It was a manufacturing constraint, not a designer's choice.

jsw

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 5:39 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
True indeed. Now if we made stuff that was .015624...we call em
blacksmith fits

LOL Actually spent a good part of my yoot as a horseshoer, doing hand
forged, corrective shoeing.

Hammer to shape, file to fit..paint to cover.

Damned hard to 'dimension' a part, other than by eye, that's cherry red.
Amazing how accurate some blacksmith's "eye" can get, though. :)

Woodworkers call it, measure twice, cut once, pound to fit.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:46:18 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sun, 24 Nov 2013 23:06:41 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

OTOH, I have worked places where we measured each part, trying to
keep up with the thermal expansion as the day warmed up.

Which is why most good inspection departments are kept at 68' and is
so noted on the print.
Had one of my clients crank out some 1500 parts EXACTLY to spec...in
August. and their air conditioning was down for a week or so.

When they went to the clients QA...they were considerably smaller
than expected. Fortunately..it was a RCH this side of being in
tolerance..if you held your head just right...but it was the first
time in 15 yrs that either side got into a ****ing contest with each
other. And it wasnt Boeing ..but MD.

Company I was at for a while, one of the guys pointed at a part,
sitting on the floor. It was right at the minimum of the +/-
tolerance. As this was a part which would be under a lot of pressure
on a ship at sea, the company and the customer were going round and
round as to whether or not it met the spec. Good news: they weren't
going to take it out of Jim's pay, as it was twice what he made a
year.

You were just cutting parts for Boing! that required .03 tolerances.
Some of their other stuff...very small tenths

Probably over in the hard metal's side of the house. But then
again, I was just knocking out Aluminum stuff in a high speed
production shop.

Speaking of RCH...do our woodworking compadres know about RCH and the
other colors of tolerance?

RCH - Real Cherry Hardwood?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair%27s_breadth

For you Commonwealth folks...refer to #10
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=R.C.H.


http://www.nuskoolbreaks.co.uk/forum...61492&start=15

Gunner


__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Heinlein

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CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

Weather is usally single digit precision. Usually.

(Grin)

The measurements may be, but climatologists know the rate of global
warming to a tenth of a degree.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 5:59 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The measurements may be, but climatologists know the rate of global
warming to a tenth of a degree.

Makes for much more sensationalism when graphing and discussing rates of
change, akin to measuring crude oil spills in gallons, instead of the
standard unit of barrels.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
google.com/+KarlCaillouet
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 5:37 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:49:42 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/25/2013 12:25 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:00:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I am a woodworker and routinely work with pieces that measure in 1/8"
resolution

Oh..you work to .125 tolerances then?



No, that is not what I said, I said I routinely work with pieces that
measure in 1/8" resolution. The tolerances have to be much greater for
a joint to disappear.

Grin



NOT that kind of joint! ;~)

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 5:39 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:54:00 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 11/25/2013 12:25 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:00:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

I am a woodworker and routinely work with pieces that measure in 1/8"
resolution

Oh..you work to .125 tolerances then?

When "woodworking", depends upon what you're making/measuring.

In a construction project, .0125" is generally what a framing carpenter
shoots for when measuring for a cut.

Whereas a trim carpenter would probably base most of his measurements on
.03125".

In a piece of fine furniture or cabinetry, .015625" is often not
acceptable due to its obvious visibility, or when needing parts to be
square.

Leon, being a master craftsman, more than likely sets his drawing
"precision" for critical projects when using SketchUp to 1/64", which
gives you a roundup of 1/32" for cutting dimensions on a shop drawings.

That said, most learn quickly to batch cut like parts so that any error
in like components still make for consistent, same size parts.

True indeed. Now if we made stuff that was .015624...we call em
blacksmith fits

Hammer to shape, file to fit..paint to cover.

Ahhhh, learning to build with expensive wood. Buy a beautiful piece of
walnut, bring it home and mill it to thickness, straighten one edge then
the other, and cut to length. Oppps, 1/16" too short, cut it again,
still too short. Redraw the plans slightly smaller, start over....
Eventually it is built and you sand the beautiful surfaces through 3
grits and it is finally ready for the finish. Open the can and roll the
paint on!

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

Gunner Asch wrote:

And in big ones too. As Pytor indicated...he turned 30' shafts that
were in .0004 tolerance. 30 Foot shafts.


Well, if you're going to give someone the shaft, you might as well do
it right. ;-)

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

Richard wrote:

On 11/25/2013 3:46 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
? "Michael A. ? on Mon, 25 Nov 2013
? 01:12:21 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
?? Richard wrote:
???
??? Now THAT'S an old computer - rock for zero, stick for one...
??
?? You just had to stick that in here, didn't you? ;-)
?
? He's lucky he had sticks. All we had were the rocks and sand.
? Rock/no rock. that's all we had.?http://xkcd.com/505/?"

But we LIKED it!


I know you did. And it scared all your neighbors away!. :)


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 5:59 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

Weather is usally single digit precision. Usually.

(Grin)

The measurements may be, but climatologists know the rate of global
warming to a tenth of a degree.




ROTFLMAO!



No kidding I just read, and it has to be true cuz i read it on the
internet, that scientist have decided that we in north America and in
Europe we are headed doe a mini ice age. Apparently the SUN, that's
right THE SUN has been causing the earth to get warm! Well apparently
the sun has been falling down on the jolately, maybe the people working
for Al Gore gave up. The sun has had much fewer than expected sun spots
and as a result we are going to experience colder weather. I always
called the global warming thing summer.


Anyway how are we going to be able to afford changing things here on
earth so that the sun is not affected, which in turn keeps us from
turning into an ice cube???


http://www.climatedepot.com/2013/07/...adual-decline/

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 6:07 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/25/2013 5:59 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The measurements may be, but climatologists know the rate of global
warming to a tenth of a degree.

Makes for much more sensationalism when graphing and discussing rates of
change, akin to measuring crude oil spills in gallons, instead of the
standard unit of barrels.



Or,,,,,, OR,,,,...... .0055556455566 Tanker loads.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 11/25/2013 6:07 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/25/2013 5:59 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The measurements may be, but climatologists know the rate of global
warming to a tenth of a degree.

Makes for much more sensationalism when graphing and discussing rates of
change, akin to measuring crude oil spills in gallons, instead of the
standard unit of barrels.



Or,,,,,, OR,,,,...... .0055556455566 Tanker loads.

Bzzzzt ... Gotta be teacups, or the granularity is off. LOL

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

Leon wrote:

A bit off topic, I checked the outside temp a few minutes ago,
42.51232367 degrees F.


Traceable to NIT?


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

CAD for simple 3-D metal & wood projects?
 

On 11/25/2013 5:39 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

True indeed. Now if we made stuff that was .015624...we call em
blacksmith fits

Hammer to shape, file to fit..paint to cover.

(Grin)

Gunner

I've built a couple of airplanes that way.

We call it steel tube blacksmithing...