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How many clamps?
I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people
here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. Thanks in advance. |
How many clamps?
In article ,
Greg Guarino wrote: I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. Thanks in advance. Looks like enought to me if you use some cauls or blocks with those bar clamps. -- Often wrong, never in doubt. Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org |
How many clamps?
Greg Guarino wrote:
I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide You only need enough to eliminate/close the gap. I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. See above. I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. Calls would eliminate the need for so many clamps b Thanks in advance. |
How many clamps?
On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Greg Guarino
bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping, I'd never just glue on any part of your project. Almost everything I build, I overbuild. To that end, I'd use my Domino and/or my Kreg wherever possible. But, if I was just gluing, I'd clamp the face frame enough to close any gaps. |
How many clamps?
Greg Guarino wrote:
I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. Two would be enough, three won't hurt. Why no clamps on top & bottom rails? I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. No. I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. Faster to eschew clamps and use countersunk screws and face grain bpugs. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
How many clamps?
dadiOH wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote: I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. Two would be enough, three won't hurt. Why no clamps on top & bottom rails? Because he has stated that he used pocket screws for the top and bottom rails. That lead me though, why not just use pocket screws for all of the rails, since they won't be seen. -- -Mike- |
How many clamps?
Mike Marlow wrote:
dadiOH wrote: Greg Guarino wrote: I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. Two would be enough, three won't hurt. Why no clamps on top & bottom rails? Because he has stated that he used pocket screws for the top and bottom rails. That lead me though, why not just use pocket screws for all of the rails, since they won't be seen. Should have read - That lead me though, to wonder why not... -- -Mike- |
How many clamps?
Greg Guarino wrote: I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. -------------------------------------------------- Other than use biscuits to maintain registration between carcass and F/F, what does your gut tell you? Lew |
How many clamps?
On Mar 24, 8:16*am, "Mike Marlow"
wrote: dadiOH wrote: Greg Guarino wrote: I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh.... and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh.... I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. Two would be enough, three won't hurt. Why no clamps on top & bottom rails? Because he has stated that he used pocket screws for the top and bottom rails. That lead me though, why not just use pocket screws for all of the rails, since they won't be seen. Well, they could be seen, if one were to look under the shelves. This will be easy to do for the upper shelves, as these units will rest on existing boxes that raise them up about 30". The top shelf will be above eye height, at least for height-challenged folks like me. The better question is why I shouldn't use pocket screws for the stiles, drilled in from the outside of the boxes. These two bookcase units will be flanked on one side by another bookcase and on the other by the side walls of the room. The answer is that I did consider it, and haven't entirely rejected the idea. I just wonder if I'll regret it someday. By Murphy's Law, putting pocket holes in the outside walls of the cabinets will guarantee that we'll need to re-purpose them at some point; the new configuration exposing the sides. Now this is a pretty minor concern, and I could be convinced otherwise if I thought it was structurally necessary to reinforce the glue. Is it? |
How many clamps?
On Mar 24, 12:51*am, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Greg Guarino bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. *Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping, I'd never just glue on any part of your project. Almost everything I build, I overbuild. To that end, I'd use my Domino and/or my Kreg wherever possible. That's one of the reasons that I made all of the shelves fixed, in dadoes. My experience is limited, but I have trouble imagining these boxes failing with so many glued joints. They will also have backs, rabbeted in, and the face frames. |
How many clamps?
On Mar 24, 9:22*am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote: I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh... and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh... I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. *I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. -------------------------------------------------- Other than use biscuits to maintain registration between carcass and F/F, what does your gut tell you? Lew I have a few ideas on the subject of "gut". What we call "gut" or "feel" is a mental association built up over multiple repetitions of some observation or activity. It's what allows people to accomplish tasks that are too complex for conscious calculation, like hitting a curve ball, or playing music without a written score. (In my case, that would be "yes" for the latter, "no" for the former) I think I have developed a reasonable mechanical sense over the years, and what "gut" I have tells me that it will probably work fine, even with fewer clamps than I show. But I am always willing to learn from people with better-developed "guts". |
How many clamps?
On 3/23/2013 11:19 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. It's hard to use too many, and easy to not use enough. Base it on the material, and the particular job ... if there is any doubt whether you have enough by the way the job is clamping up (as in is some of the material bowed and not making good contact?), add more to those spots, it will rarely hurt to do so; if not, don't worry about it. Your photos appear to be just about right for most face frame glue-ups. Just remember, to effectively glue two wood parts together with most modern wood glues you need both contact between the parts, and adequate pressure (which may vary with the application). -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
How many clamps?
On 3/23/13 11:51 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Greg Guarino bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping, I'd never just glue on any part of your project. Almost everything I build, I overbuild. To that end, I'd use my Domino and/or my Kreg wherever possible. Coming from someone (me) who generally over-engineers everything, your statement in way too general to be good advice. :-) You said it yourself in your first sentence, "Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping..." If there's no load on a joint, it's just plain silly to use dowel/tenons or screws for strength. In any non-load bearing joint, if the glue alone isn't strong enough, the joint isn't designed properly. Even a butt joint with modern glue is strong enough. Unless they are serving another purpose, screws or dowels/tenons are a waste of time and resources. Tenons for alignment are a another story. They are great way to help perfectly align a joint while clamping or until the glue cures. Pocket screws are a great way to clamp, but according to Kreg and confirmed by my experience, they negate the need for glue. I use pocket screws to clamp all the time, in places they won't be seen, when I don't have enough clamps or I don't want to wait for the glue to cure before moving to the next step in the project. Sometimes, after the glue dries, I'll take the screws out and recycle them because the are no longer doing anything useful-- they were simply tiny clamps. For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for strength and holding. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
How many clamps?
On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. Thanks in advance. Of course you realize that there is no hard and fast rule. and opinions will vary. I have no rule. Just what I feel. Sometimes I over clamp... looks like a porcupine, sometimes not. Cauls are nice if you have them made ahead of time. I tooks some 2x4's and ripped them in half then I planed them so that they have a nice bow. so one side is flat and one arches. I use either depending. Now that I haven't given you an answer, are you finishing the face frame first? or after? -- Jeff |
How many clamps?
Dave wrote: Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping, I'd never just glue on any part of your project. Almost everything I build, I overbuild. To that end, I'd use my Domino and/or my Kreg wherever possible. "-MIKE-" wrote: Coming from someone (me) who generally over-engineers everything, your statement in way too general to be good advice. :-) You said it yourself in your first sentence, "Despite the holding properties of proper glue usage and clamping..." If there's no load on a joint, it's just plain silly to use dowel/tenons or screws for strength. In any non-load bearing joint, if the glue alone isn't strong enough, the joint isn't designed properly. Even a butt joint with modern glue is strong enough. Unless they are serving another purpose, screws or dowels/tenons are a waste of time and resources. Tenons for alignment are a another story. They are great way to help perfectly align a joint while clamping or until the glue cures. Pocket screws are a great way to clamp, but according to Kreg and confirmed by my experience, they negate the need for glue. I use screws to clamp all the time, in places they won't be seen, when I don't have enough clamps or I don't want to wait for the glue to cure before moving to the next step in the project. Sometimes, after the glue dries, I'll take the screws out and recycle them because the are no longer doing anything useful-- they were simply tiny clamps. For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for strength and holding. ------------------------------------------------------------ With the advent of modern day adhesives, the relative strength advantage of fastners v. adhesives for joints is greatly over rated. Ever wonder how Boeing is securing all that carbon fiber they are using to build the current airplanes they are producing? Think maybe various epoxy formulations might be involved? Adhesive for shear load applications is a tough joint to beat. Tensile load joints, not so much, but then tensile joints are no winner for fastners either. Lew |
How many clamps?
On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...ream/lightbox/ I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. Thanks in advance. Greg, see the binaries... -- Jeff |
How many clamps?
On Mar 24, 2:17*pm, "Mike Marlow"
wrote: Greg Guarino wrote: Well, they could be seen, if one were to look under the shelves. This will be easy to do for the upper shelves, as these units will rest on existing boxes that raise them up about 30". The top shelf will be above eye height, at least for height-challenged folks like me. Got it. *In that case, would the plugs that are designed for pocket holes be unacceptable to you? *They'd still show somewhat, but not to the casual observer. True, and I did consider doing that. But it turns out that the plugs are a little too long for 3/4" material and would need to be cut down. And as I stained the ply, they'd have to be stained as well, and surely wouldn't quite match. All of that could be acceptable if I was convinced that there was some need. But my sense of it is that the glue alone will be adequate. I could be wrong; a common enough occurrence when the topic is woodworking. |
How many clamps?
On Mar 24, 6:14*pm, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote: I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh... and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh... I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. Thanks in advance. Greg, see the binaries... -- Jeff No binary access. I use Eternal September on one computer and GG (until I get around to fixing it) on this one. |
How many clamps?
On Mar 24, 3:44*pm, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote: I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh... and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh... I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. I have shown five pipe-style clamps on each side (one at each T intersection) plus some cheap bar clamps in between the shelves that are further apart. Do I also need clamps between the shelves that are closer together? Those are 11.25" apart on center. I feel I'm going to get a lesson on cauls, which, if quick and simple, I could consider. But my spare time has become very spare indeed lately. Thanks in advance. Of course you realize that there is no hard and fast rule. and opinions will vary. I have no rule. Just what I feel. Sometimes I over clamp... looks like a porcupine, sometimes not. Cauls are nice if you have them made ahead of time. I tooks some 2x4's and ripped them in half then I planed them so that they have a nice bow. so one side is flat and one arches. I use either depending. Now that I haven't given you an answer, are you finishing the face frame first? or after? -- Jeff First. They're done, actually. |
How many clamps?
On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:15 -0500, -MIKE-
For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for strength and holding. The cabinet sides and shelving are plywood. That being the case, he would be gluing hardwood face frames to plywood edging. Maybe I've been doing something wrong all these years, but I've *never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. That's my reasoning for more than just glue. |
How many clamps?
Amy Guarino wrote:
On Mar 24, 2:17 pm, "Mike Marlow" wrote: Greg Guarino wrote: Well, they could be seen, if one were to look under the shelves. This will be easy to do for the upper shelves, as these units will rest on existing boxes that raise them up about 30". The top shelf will be above eye height, at least for height-challenged folks like me. Got it. In that case, would the plugs that are designed for pocket holes be unacceptable to you? They'd still show somewhat, but not to the casual observer. True, and I did consider doing that. But it turns out that the plugs are a little too long for 3/4" material and would need to be cut down. And as I stained the ply, they'd have to be stained as well, and surely wouldn't quite match. All of that could be acceptable if I was convinced that there was some need. But my sense of it is that the glue alone will be adequate. I could be wrong; a common enough occurrence when the topic is woodworking. Oh yeah - don't get me wrong... I believe the glue alone will be sufficient in conjunction with the pocket screws you already have in place. I was just thinking out loud so to speak, because I thought you were looking for ideas to augment the glue some more. -- -Mike- |
How many clamps?
Dave wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:15 -0500, -MIKE- For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for strength and holding. The cabinet sides and shelving are plywood. That being the case, he would be gluing hardwood face frames to plywood edging. Maybe I've been doing something wrong all these years, but I've *never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. That's my reasoning for more than just glue. Yeahbut he does have pocket screws holding the face frame on at both the top and the bottom rails. -- -Mike- |
How many clamps?
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 06:51:25 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
That's my reasoning for more than just glue. Yeahbut he does have pocket screws holding the face frame on at both the top and the bottom rails. Oh, I'm not saying that the face frame will move, just that my building preferences demand that most of what I build are comparable to a tank. |
How many clamps?
On 3/24/2013 11:24 PM, Amy Guarino wrote:
On Mar 24, 6:14 pm, woodchucker wrote: On 3/24/2013 12:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote: Thanks in advance. Greg, see the binaries... -- Jeff No binary access. I use Eternal September on one computer and GG (until I get around to fixing it) on this one. Greg see the first two images in: http://imgur.com/a/YbWt2#0 Just meant to show that cauls can be simple and also used for other things. I turn them around at times to lightly clamp for dovetailing. BTW what stain did you use on your inside. I like the color. -- Jeff |
How many clamps?
On 3/24/2013 12:32 AM, Leon wrote:
Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide You only need enough to eliminate/close the gap. Thanks for the helpful advice. I inspected the contact between the face frame and the unit with the clamps on (dry) as shown in the photos I posted. I could see a gap in one spot and made a mental note to add a clamp there as per your suggestion. When I removed the clamps and the face frame to prepare for the actual gluing, I noticed that there was a very slight "lump" of glue near where I had seen the gap; it must have squeezed out of the end of the dado when I glued in the shelves. A few passes with a block plane evened it out nicely, there, and in another location. After I applied the glue, face frame and clamps, I inspected that area again: No gap. |
How many clamps?
On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote:
I've*never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would like? |
How many clamps?
On 3/25/2013 11:32 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote: I've*never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would like? Greg, you won't have a problem with the face frame coming off. it will be fine. -- Jeff |
How many clamps?
On 3/24/2013 7:06 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On Mar 24, 8:16 am, "Mike Marlow" wrote: dadiOH wrote: Greg Guarino wrote: I find that the more simpleminded the question, the more likely people here will argue about it. This should be interesting. I'm finally getting ready to attach the face frames to my first two bookcase units. Apart from some pocket screws for the top and bottom rails (whose holes will never be seen), I plan to just glue and clamp. I took a first stab at laying out where the clamps should go. I find that it's a little less nerve wracking if I have all of the clamps at hand and set to something like the right opening before I apply any glue. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh... and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguari...otostream/ligh... I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. Two would be enough, three won't hurt. Why no clamps on top & bottom rails? Because he has stated that he used pocket screws for the top and bottom rails. That lead me though, why not just use pocket screws for all of the rails, since they won't be seen. Well, they could be seen, if one were to look under the shelves. This will be easy to do for the upper shelves, as these units will rest on existing boxes that raise them up about 30". The top shelf will be above eye height, at least for height-challenged folks like me. you make them be a feature, not a bug. glue in either matching, or contrasting pocket hole plugs. http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...6&site=ROCKLER |
How many clamps?
On 3/25/2013 11:43 AM, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/25/2013 11:32 AM, Greg Guarino wrote: On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote: I've*never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would like? Greg, you won't have a problem with the face frame coming off. it will be fine. At this point it really was more curiosity than worry. I'm always up for learning something more. In any case, the gluing was done yesterday evening. :) |
How many clamps?
On 3/25/13 1:31 AM, Dave wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:15 -0500, -MIKE- For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for strength and holding. The cabinet sides and shelving are plywood. That being the case, he would be gluing hardwood face frames to plywood edging. Maybe I've been doing something wrong all these years, but I've *never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. That's my reasoning for more than just glue. I can't speak to your experience or process, but I glue thick, solid edge banding/reinforcement to plywood all the time and get very strong results. I routinely test small sections of the joint from where I've cut a shelf to length and end up with a cut-off piece of shelf that is 1/4" to 1" wide. It is very difficult to break this joint and it rarely fails at the glue line. I stopped using fasteners (screws or nails) for this joint, several projects ago, as they proved to be unnecessary overkill. As to strong.... well, strong is relative, isn't it. In the case of the OP's bookcase, the shelves look to be about 18" wide in my estimation. Not only does he not need any reinforcement on those shelves, he could probably store electric motors on them with no deflection. :-) The face frames in the OP's bookshelf are just that, face frames. Face frames in cabinetry *do* add rigidity and strength, but in modern cabinetry are much more cosmetic/esthetic. I know of designs in which the face frames of a cabinet is intended to provide critical strength to the construction. This is certainly not the case in the OP's bookcase. The OP's face frame, IMO, is purely cosmetic and could be attached with 18ga trim nails and it would be stronger than needed for the intended purpose. Gluing it on now means it would likely hold up in a circus elephant act. :-) Moving on to a broader discussion of solid edge support.... If I get to the point where I want the edge banding on a plywood shelf to act as reinforcement against deflection, I will often cut a rabbet in the solid wood banding to add strength, like this... http://www.mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_top.jpg http://www.mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_bot.jpg This is generally for shelves that are very wide, like 3feet and more. This adds a great deal of strength and gives the shelves a thinker front profile, which I think looks better. So, it serves a dual purpose. I would never think (any longer) to have any fasteners in this joint. But I can assure you, even without the rabbet, I would use only glue. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
How many clamps?
On 3/25/13 5:51 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Dave wrote: On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:50:15 -0500, -MIKE- For the OP's bookcase project, assuming he used dado joints for the shelves, I see nothing that requires anything other than glue for strength and holding. The cabinet sides and shelving are plywood. That being the case, he would be gluing hardwood face frames to plywood edging. Maybe I've been doing something wrong all these years, but I've *never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. That's my reasoning for more than just glue. Yeahbut he does have pocket screws holding the face frame on at both the top and the bottom rails. I addressed this in my previous post, but from the OP's pictures, that face frame could be more than adequately attached with trim nails. Those shelves are very narrow and are glued/dadoed in as integral segments of the case. IMO, they need no reinforcement at all. The frame certainly will add some strength, especially if glued. But glue AND fasteners is beyond overkill and simply a waste. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
How many clamps?
Greg Guarino wrote:
On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote: I've*never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would like? I don't know about him but I have *NEVER* had a glued joint fail. One of mine, that is. A while back I had to make a couple of glued up arched jambs. I drew my arc on a piece of ply, put short pieces of 2x4 on edge at a few tangents. I attached them by squirting some yellow glue on them and pressing in place (no clamps). When I finished with the jig I reclaimed the plywood by knocking off the 2x4 pieces with a hammer. Generally took more than one hard blow and each one took plywood with it. NP, other side is still good. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
How many clamps?
Greg Guarino wrote in
: I have two questions: Do I need three clamps for each rail, as shown in the photos? Or would two (plus the clamps at the ends of the rails) be enough? The units are 21" wide. regardless of the project size I always use 36 8' 3/4" pipe bar clamps. :) |
How many clamps?
In article ,
Dave wrote: On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 06:51:25 -0400, "Mike Marlow" That's my reasoning for more than just glue. Yeahbut he does have pocket screws holding the face frame on at both the top and the bottom rails. Oh, I'm not saying that the face frame will move, just that my building preferences demand that most of what I build are comparable to a tank. If you have kidds and especially if some of them are boys that is the wise thing to do! -- Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one. Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org |
How many clamps?
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 11:32:48 -0400, Greg Guarino
On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote: I've*never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would like? Initially, I glued a 1" thick strip of pine to a plywood veneered table edge that I built. It started coming off about a month after I built the table. I removed all the pine edging and then shaved about 1/4" off the plywood table edge to remove the remnants of soaked in hardened glue. Then I tried gluing again with a different brand of yellow carpenter's glue. Same problem happened again about two months later. All of this seems really strange because after the second try, I glued on a roll of veneer stripping and that's stayed on quite well ever since then. I can only surmise, that pressure (such as elbows) put downwards force on the table edge. Other than that, to be honest, I'm not sure where the problem lay. Maybe it was me and my technique, the type of glue I used or something else. That's my limited experience with it. I've never tried again. |
How many clamps?
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:46:22 -0500, -MIKE-
will add some strength, especially if glued. But glue AND fasteners is beyond overkill and simply a waste. Possibly. Much of what we build is dependent on how we've built things through the years. For quite a few years, I used a blind nailer on my face frames, something I bought a long, long time ago from Lee Valley Tools. Essentially, it's a mini-plane that raises a thin shaving of wood. I'd then drill a slightly undersized hole in that space and drive in a countersunk finishing nail. The raised shaving would then be glued back down and clamped in place for about ten minutes. I produced an invisible method of joining my face frames. That method worked really well for a long time. Then I bought a Domino and just like the biscuit joiner, I haven't used the blind nailer since. |
How many clamps?
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:49:27 -0400, "dadiOH"
I don't know about him but I have *NEVER* had a glued joint fail. One of mine, that is. I've glued hardwood to hardwood, pine to pine and a combination of both and they've stood up well. It's just the gluing of solid wood to plywood edging that I've had this problem. Never could figure out why. |
How many clamps?
On 3/26/13 3:40 AM, Dave wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 11:32:48 -0400, Greg Guarino On 3/25/2013 2:31 AM, Dave wrote: I've*never* been able glue wood to plywood edging and been able to call it a strong connection. I'm curious, did any such joints actually come loose? Did you perhaps try to pry one apart and find that it was indeed weaker than you would like? Initially, I glued a 1" thick strip of pine to a plywood veneered table edge that I built. It started coming off about a month after I built the table. I removed all the pine edging and then shaved about 1/4" off the plywood table edge to remove the remnants of soaked in hardened glue. Then I tried gluing again with a different brand of yellow carpenter's glue. Same problem happened again about two months later. All of this seems really strange because after the second try, I glued on a roll of veneer stripping and that's stayed on quite well ever since then. I can only surmise, that pressure (such as elbows) put downwards force on the table edge. Other than that, to be honest, I'm not sure where the problem lay. Maybe it was me and my technique, the type of glue I used or something else. That's my limited experience with it. I've never tried again. I wish you had pictures so we could help you out better. My first instinct is not tight enough clamping. Long shot, though, since it doesn't take much pressure at all. As another poster stated, just enough to close the gap. My second is wet wood-- the pine, maybe. Silly question, but was either product pressure treated in any way? Was the pine recycled from another project and treated with any kind of finish or solvent? (Please don't think I'm trying argue, here.) -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
How many clamps?
On 3/26/13 3:50 AM, Dave wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:46:22 -0500, -MIKE- will add some strength, especially if glued. But glue AND fasteners is beyond overkill and simply a waste. Possibly. Much of what we build is dependent on how we've built things through the years. For quite a few years, I used a blind nailer on my face frames, something I bought a long, long time ago from Lee Valley Tools. Essentially, it's a mini-plane that raises a thin shaving of wood. I'd then drill a slightly undersized hole in that space and drive in a countersunk finishing nail. The raised shaving would then be glued back down and clamped in place for about ten minutes. I produced an invisible method of joining my face frames. That method worked really well for a long time. Then I bought a Domino and just like the biscuit joiner, I haven't used the blind nailer since. I love the blind nailing technique. I don't know who invented it or when, but I think it's brilliant. In the case of gluing *and* finish-nailing a face frame, I still contend that the purpose of the nails is to act as clamps until the glue dries. Norm used to mention this a lot on his show. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
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