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Answer from SawStop
"To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is
running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote:
"To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." My reading is the sensor electronics may hang on for very short time but again w/o power the likelihood of the fusible link firing is essentially zero. I'd guess there's also a decent chance the power transient may trash the processor anyway, even if the absolute voltage Vcc hasn't dropped below the Vmin threshold. -- |
Answer from SawStop
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message ... "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. Hmmmm..... a product flaw that is ripe for lawsuit picking. In the scenario where the power fails the workman cannot see to control the wood or keep his/her hands clear of the blade and gets badly cut as the saw is winding down. This problem was foreseeable and preventable... One or more large capacitors, or a UPS (uninterruptable power supply) on the safety device could have kept the safety device active for several seconds or more giving the saw time to wind down and the user to safely remove their hands from the danger area. Out lawyer the lawyer? ;~) John |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. Not as safe but a lot of things would have to go wrong besides the lights and power going out. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. Why are you pushing your HAND toward the blade in the first place? I'm going to misquote Wilbur Wright - If you want perfect safety go sit on the fence... (but fasten a seat belt so you don't fall off!) |
Answer from SawStop
Leon wrote:
"To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How about those impatient souls who turn off the saw then get cut by the coasting blade as they grab the cut-off piece of wood. Does the safety system remain active for more than two seconds after the saw is turned off? -- G.W. Ross Take my advice, I don't use it anyway. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." .... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. .... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 6:06 PM, G. Ross wrote:
.... How about those impatient souls who turn off the saw then get cut by the coasting blade as they grab the cut-off piece of wood. Does the safety system remain active for more than two seconds after the saw is turned off? This isn't turning the saw off; it's loss of power _to_ the saw...totally different. -- |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 6:28 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." My reading is the sensor electronics may hang on for very short time but again w/o power the likelihood of the fusible link firing is essentially zero. I'd guess there's also a decent chance the power transient may trash the processor anyway, even if the absolute voltage Vcc hasn't dropped below the Vmin threshold. -- remember this operates like a GFCI , I don't think it will trash it. There is a chance that the moment b4 power loss, that this might think this is grounded and fire w/remaining voltage. But doubtful. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 5:59 PM, Richard wrote:
On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. Why are you pushing your HAND toward the blade in the first place? Well what direction do you push your hand when cutting wood on a TS? |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 6:10 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." ... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. ... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- Read his first paragraph. He is just covering his ass in the event that does not work. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 6:06 PM, G. Ross wrote:
Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How about those impatient souls who turn off the saw then get cut by the coasting blade as they grab the cut-off piece of wood. Does the safety system remain active for more than two seconds after the saw is turned off? Yes the system is active after the motor is turned off and the blade is still spinning. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 5:38 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message ... "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. Hmmmm..... a product flaw that is ripe for lawsuit picking. In the scenario where the power fails the workman cannot see to control the wood or keep his/her hands clear of the blade and gets badly cut as the saw is winding down. This problem was foreseeable and preventable... One or more large capacitors, or a UPS (uninterruptable power supply) on the safety device could have kept the safety device active for several seconds or more giving the saw time to wind down and the user to safely remove their hands from the danger area. Out lawyer the lawyer? ;~) John So do you propose going after the power company? Under normal circumstances the saw safety will work. If the lights go out and the motor looses power I suspect no one will blame the saw should an accident happen. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 9:22 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/6/2012 6:10 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." ... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. ... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- Read his first paragraph. He is just covering his ass in the event that does not work. Read his last words--he said it won't work reliable...which means it doesn't work and isn't intended to work. -- |
Answer from SawStop
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:20:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. Why are you pushing your HAND toward the blade in the first place? Well what direction do you push your hand when cutting wood on a TS? I never push towards the blade. I push towards the back of the saw, usually along the fence or holding a push block. NEVER in line with the blade. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 10:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:20:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. Why are you pushing your HAND toward the blade in the first place? Well what direction do you push your hand when cutting wood on a TS? I never push towards the blade. I push towards the back of the saw, usually along the fence or holding a push block. NEVER in line with the blade. But pushing towards the back of the saw is towards the blade. Not directly but your hand actually comes closer when pushing. That is the point I am making. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/6/2012 9:30 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/6/2012 9:22 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 6:10 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." ... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. ... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- Read his first paragraph. He is just covering his ass in the event that does not work. Read his last words--he said it won't work reliable...which means it doesn't work and isn't intended to work. -- Does not work reliably = Does not work. Not in my world. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/7/2012 7:54 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/6/2012 9:30 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:22 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 6:10 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." ... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. ... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- Read his first paragraph. He is just covering his ass in the event that does not work. Read his last words--he said it won't work reliable...which means it doesn't work and isn't intended to work. Does not work reliably = Does not work. Not in my world. When the designer/manufacturer says "would not activate the safety system" I think he says exactly what he means. He didn't even say it _might_ work; he said the event which is to be protected against "would not activate the safety system". Can't get more clear than that. Write him back w/ your "explanation" of how that isn't actually what he said and see what he says in return... -- |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/7/2012 8:11 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/7/2012 7:54 AM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:30 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:22 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 6:10 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." ... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. ... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- Read his first paragraph. He is just covering his ass in the event that does not work. Read his last words--he said it won't work reliable...which means it doesn't work and isn't intended to work. Does not work reliably = Does not work. Not in my world. When the designer/manufacturer says "would not activate the safety system" I think he says exactly what he means. He didn't even say it _might_ work; he said the event which is to be protected against "would not activate the safety system". Can't get more clear than that. Actually he did say it "might" work. copied from his reply, if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. Now granted any time after the 1~2 seconds you would be unprotected from the spinning blade. Again I read that as the stop might trigger at the moment after the power failure but not after 1~2 seconds. |
Answer from SawStop
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message ... On 12/6/2012 5:38 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote: "Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message ... "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. Hmmmm..... a product flaw that is ripe for lawsuit picking. In the scenario where the power fails the workman cannot see to control the wood or keep his/her hands clear of the blade and gets badly cut as the saw is winding down. This problem was foreseeable and preventable... One or more large capacitors, or a UPS (uninterruptable power supply) on the safety device could have kept the safety device active for several seconds or more giving the saw time to wind down and the user to safely remove their hands from the danger area. Out lawyer the lawyer? ;~) John So do you propose going after the power company? Under normal circumstances the saw safety will work. If the lights go out and the motor looses power I suspect no one will blame the saw should an accident happen. No... poking fun at the flawless product... |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/7/2012 11:17 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message ... On 12/6/2012 5:38 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote: "Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message ... "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. Hmmmm..... a product flaw that is ripe for lawsuit picking. In the scenario where the power fails the workman cannot see to control the wood or keep his/her hands clear of the blade and gets badly cut as the saw is winding down. This problem was foreseeable and preventable... One or more large capacitors, or a UPS (uninterruptable power supply) on the safety device could have kept the safety device active for several seconds or more giving the saw time to wind down and the user to safely remove their hands from the danger area. Out lawyer the lawyer? ;~) John So do you propose going after the power company? Under normal circumstances the saw safety will work. If the lights go out and the motor looses power I suspect no one will blame the saw should an accident happen. No... poking fun at the flawless product... Oh, OK, ;~) |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/7/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/7/2012 8:11 AM, dpb wrote: On 12/7/2012 7:54 AM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:30 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:22 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 6:10 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." ... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. ... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- Read his first paragraph. He is just covering his ass in the event that does not work. Read his last words--he said it won't work reliable...which means it doesn't work and isn't intended to work. Does not work reliably = Does not work. Not in my world. When the designer/manufacturer says "would not activate the safety system" I think he says exactly what he means. He didn't even say it _might_ work; he said the event which is to be protected against "would not activate the safety system". Can't get more clear than that. Actually he did say it "might" work. copied from his reply, if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. Now granted any time after the 1~2 seconds you would be unprotected from the spinning blade. Again I read that as the stop might trigger at the moment after the power failure but not after 1~2 seconds. The operative word there is "might"...and if the discussion stopped there I might even tend to think he meant what you seem to want it to mean. But, he didn't--he went on and said it won't actuate. Just because it has some voltage that might keep the sensor electronics alive for a while that doesn't mean it'll have enough current to actually blow the fusible link when it wasn't designed for such. You're stretching for some reason I've no clue of why it seems so important to you. I'm killing the thread now so I'm no longer tempted to respond any longer...it's asinine. If you think there really is some way his words are misinterpreted then follow up and ask for the clarification but I think the odds are about Ivory pure that he'll tell you precisely what I've done--the sensor electronics may live for a short time but there's essentially no chance there's enough power to actually trigger the brake once't you pull the plug. -- |
Answer from SawStop
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:20:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:59 PM, Richard wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. Why are you pushing your HAND toward the blade in the first place? Well what direction do you push your hand when cutting wood on a TS? Unless your nickname is "lefty", generally PARRALLEL to the blade. |
Answer from SawStop
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Answer from SawStop
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Answer from SawStop
On 12/7/2012 12:32 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/7/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote: On 12/7/2012 8:11 AM, dpb wrote: On 12/7/2012 7:54 AM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:30 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:22 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 6:10 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." ... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. ... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- Read his first paragraph. He is just covering his ass in the event that does not work. Read his last words--he said it won't work reliable...which means it doesn't work and isn't intended to work. Does not work reliably = Does not work. Not in my world. When the designer/manufacturer says "would not activate the safety system" I think he says exactly what he means. He didn't even say it _might_ work; he said the event which is to be protected against "would not activate the safety system". Can't get more clear than that. Actually he did say it "might" work. copied from his reply, if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. Now granted any time after the 1~2 seconds you would be unprotected from the spinning blade. Again I read that as the stop might trigger at the moment after the power failure but not after 1~2 seconds. The operative word there is "might"...and if the discussion stopped there I might even tend to think he meant what you seem to want it to mean. But, he didn't--he went on and said it won't actuate. Just because it has some voltage that might keep the sensor electronics alive for a while that doesn't mean it'll have enough current to actually blow the fusible link when it wasn't designed for such. You're stretching for some reason I've no clue of why it seems so important to you. I'm killing the thread now so I'm no longer tempted to respond any longer...it's asinine. If you think there really is some way his words are misinterpreted then follow up and ask for the clarification but I think the odds are about Ivory pure that he'll tell you precisely what I've done--the sensor electronics may live for a short time but there's essentially no chance there's enough power to actually trigger the brake once't you pull the plug. -- Ok he said it might work for 1~2 seconds. BUT because it takes longer for spin down to happen it is not going to protect during the whole spin down time period, only the first 1~2 seconds. Since you do not know what my question to him was, that may be the problem. I asked if the saw would protect in the even of a power failure. A simple answer of NO would have been sufficient if it would not protect during a power failure. Because as he explained, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off, you might be protected for the second or two after the power failure. After that period of time you would not be protected during the remainder of the coast down. Either way, you are likely to be cut if every thing goes wrong but there is a slight window of opportunity where you ge an extra second or two that another brand saw would not afford you. |
Answer from SawStop
On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 08:36:04 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: Ok he said it might work for 1~2 seconds. BUT because it takes longer for spin down to happen it is not going to protect during the whole spin down time period, only the first 1~2 seconds. Since you do not know what my question to him was, that may be the problem. I asked if the saw would protect in the even of a power failure. A simple answer of NO would have been sufficient if it would not protect during a power failure. Because as he explained, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off, you might be protected for the second or two after the power failure. After that period of time you would not be protected during the remainder of the coast down. Either way, you are likely to be cut if every thing goes wrong but there is a slight window of opportunity where you ge an extra second or two that another brand saw would not afford you. In reality, how much protection do you need? Spin down of a blade with no load takes a few seconds, a blade in the middle of a cut stops quickly by comparison. I've had the lights go out. I just froze until everything was quiet. Normal reaction time would still keep you a good distance from the blade if you were still pushing. Yes, things can go wrong and we can argue theory all day, but in real life, I don't see it as a problem. Certainly not a deal beaker for me. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/8/2012 8:22 AM, Leon wrote:
On 12/7/2012 10:50 PM, Richard wrote: On 12/7/2012 7:11 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/7/2012 3:11 PM, wrote: On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:20:55 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:59 PM, Richard wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. Why are you pushing your HAND toward the blade in the first place? Well what direction do you push your hand when cutting wood on a TS? Unless your nickname is "lefty", generally PARRALLEL to the blade. And yet if your hand does not come closer to the blade as you push, regardless of of parallel or directly towards, you are not feeding the wood. You hand has to move closer to the blade to feed. I never let my hands get anywhere near the table, much less the blade. Make a few pushers, and use them. Surely your comment is a troll... But to address that, the table is not going to hurt you, it is that round spinning thing that will. If you don't understand that an accident is headed your way. Push sticks are no safer than using your bare hand, something to hold down the work as you push your wood through is by far safer in that they will further help to prevent the front feed end of the work from lifting. Troll? I'm not going to argue with you, Leon. You do it your way. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/8/2012 8:36 AM, Leon wrote:
.... Ok he said it might work for 1~2 seconds. BUT because it takes longer for spin down to happen it is not going to protect during the whole spin down time period, only the first 1~2 seconds. Since you do not know what my question to him was, that may be the problem. I asked if the saw would protect in the even of a power failure. A simple answer of NO would have been sufficient if it would not protect during a power failure. Because as he explained, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off, you might be protected for the second or two after the power failure. After that period of time you would not be protected during the remainder of the coast down. Either way, you are likely to be cut if every thing goes wrong but there is a slight window of opportunity where you ge an extra second or two that another brand saw would not afford you. .... OK, I said I wouldn't but... :) I spent a number of years designing, analyzing and licensing safety systems for commercial reactors (amongst many other things alongst the way; this was mostly early 10-15 yr). If I had _ever_ written such an assessment of a functional safety system or tried to weasel-word such testimony as a "might" to the ACRS (Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards the ultimate technical body that made the judgments on vendor issues before the NRC) it would certainly have been deemed as "doesn't work" and we'd have had to start over. Not to mention, of course, my employer would have likely terminated me before the hearing was over for such incompetence as to think somehow that would be 'ok' for a safety system to perhaps work some of the time or then again, maybe it won't. :) IOW, from what (I presume Dr Gass) wrote, it's clear the scenario is _not_ considered in the design and therefore it's almost purely happenstance if it were to happen to actually trigger under those circumstances. That, to me, is about as clear a "no" as it gets. I think there's essentially no additional protection over any other saw under those conditions. That's not to say it isn't a well-designed and functional system for what the design _does_ include but there's no point in trying to claim it's capable of something that isn't intended on the basis of a random event occurring. -- |
Answer from SawStop
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says... On 12/7/2012 12:32 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/7/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote: On 12/7/2012 8:11 AM, dpb wrote: On 12/7/2012 7:54 AM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:30 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:22 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 6:10 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." ... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. ... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- Read his first paragraph. He is just covering his ass in the event that does not work. Read his last words--he said it won't work reliable...which means it doesn't work and isn't intended to work. Does not work reliably = Does not work. Not in my world. When the designer/manufacturer says "would not activate the safety system" I think he says exactly what he means. He didn't even say it _might_ work; he said the event which is to be protected against "would not activate the safety system". Can't get more clear than that. Actually he did say it "might" work. copied from his reply, if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. Now granted any time after the 1~2 seconds you would be unprotected from the spinning blade. Again I read that as the stop might trigger at the moment after the power failure but not after 1~2 seconds. The operative word there is "might"...and if the discussion stopped there I might even tend to think he meant what you seem to want it to mean. But, he didn't--he went on and said it won't actuate. Just because it has some voltage that might keep the sensor electronics alive for a while that doesn't mean it'll have enough current to actually blow the fusible link when it wasn't designed for such. You're stretching for some reason I've no clue of why it seems so important to you. I'm killing the thread now so I'm no longer tempted to respond any longer...it's asinine. If you think there really is some way his words are misinterpreted then follow up and ask for the clarification but I think the odds are about Ivory pure that he'll tell you precisely what I've done--the sensor electronics may live for a short time but there's essentially no chance there's enough power to actually trigger the brake once't you pull the plug. -- Ok he said it might work for 1~2 seconds. BUT because it takes longer for spin down to happen it is not going to protect during the whole spin down time period, only the first 1~2 seconds. Since you do not know what my question to him was, that may be the problem. I asked if the saw would protect in the even of a power failure. A simple answer of NO would have been sufficient if it would not protect during a power failure. Because as he explained, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off, you might be protected for the second or two after the power failure. After that period of time you would not be protected during the remainder of the coast down. Either way, you are likely to be cut if every thing goes wrong but there is a slight window of opportunity where you ge an extra second or two that another brand saw would not afford you. Why not write back to them/him, quote the explanation and say, "Is this a yes or a no?" and end all speculation. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/8/2012 1:17 PM, Richard wrote:
Unless your nickname is "lefty", generally PARRALLEL to the blade. And yet if your hand does not come closer to the blade as you push, regardless of of parallel or directly towards, you are not feeding the wood. You hand has to move closer to the blade to feed. I never let my hands get anywhere near the table, much less the blade. Make a few pushers, and use them. Surely your comment is a troll... But to address that, the table is not going to hurt you, it is that round spinning thing that will. If you don't understand that an accident is headed your way. Push sticks are no safer than using your bare hand, something to hold down the work as you push your wood through is by far safer in that they will further help to prevent the front feed end of the work from lifting. Troll? I'm not going to argue with you, Leon. You do it your way. That's what I thought. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/8/2012 10:45 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 08:36:04 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: Ok he said it might work for 1~2 seconds. BUT because it takes longer for spin down to happen it is not going to protect during the whole spin down time period, only the first 1~2 seconds. Since you do not know what my question to him was, that may be the problem. I asked if the saw would protect in the even of a power failure. A simple answer of NO would have been sufficient if it would not protect during a power failure. Because as he explained, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off, you might be protected for the second or two after the power failure. After that period of time you would not be protected during the remainder of the coast down. Either way, you are likely to be cut if every thing goes wrong but there is a slight window of opportunity where you ge an extra second or two that another brand saw would not afford you. In reality, how much protection do you need? Spin down of a blade with no load takes a few seconds, a blade in the middle of a cut stops quickly by comparison. I've had the lights go out. I just froze until everything was quiet. Normal reaction time would still keep you a good distance from the blade if you were still pushing. Yes, things can go wrong and we can argue theory all day, but in real life, I don't see it as a problem. Certainly not a deal beaker for me. Exactly |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/8/2012 3:00 PM, dpb wrote:
On 12/8/2012 8:36 AM, Leon wrote: ... Ok he said it might work for 1~2 seconds. BUT because it takes longer for spin down to happen it is not going to protect during the whole spin down time period, only the first 1~2 seconds. Since you do not know what my question to him was, that may be the problem. I asked if the saw would protect in the even of a power failure. A simple answer of NO would have been sufficient if it would not protect during a power failure. Because as he explained, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off, you might be protected for the second or two after the power failure. After that period of time you would not be protected during the remainder of the coast down. Either way, you are likely to be cut if every thing goes wrong but there is a slight window of opportunity where you ge an extra second or two that another brand saw would not afford you. ... OK, I said I wouldn't but... :) I spent a number of years designing, analyzing and licensing safety systems for commercial reactors (amongst many other things alongst the way; this was mostly early 10-15 yr). If I had _ever_ written such an assessment of a functional safety system or tried to weasel-word such testimony as a "might" to the ACRS (Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards the ultimate technical body that made the judgments on vendor issues before the NRC) it would certainly have been deemed as "doesn't work" and we'd have had to start over. Not to mention, of course, my employer would have likely terminated me before the hearing was over for such incompetence as to think somehow that would be 'ok' for a safety system to perhaps work some of the time or then again, maybe it won't. :) IOW, from what (I presume Dr Gass) wrote, it's clear the scenario is _not_ considered in the design and therefore it's almost purely happenstance if it were to happen to actually trigger under those circumstances. That, to me, is about as clear a "no" as it gets. I think there's essentially no additional protection over any other saw under those conditions. That's not to say it isn't a well-designed and functional system for what the design _does_ include but there's no point in trying to claim it's capable of something that isn't intended on the basis of a random event occurring. -- Now I think we are seeing it the same way. ;~) The explanation would be similar to the selling the smoothness of the blade elevation wheel. You can turn it by hand or give it a quick spin and it will spin a few times on it's own. Not really a feature but something that might happen if the stars align properly. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/9/2012 7:21 AM, phorbin wrote:
In article , lcb11211 @swbelldotnet says... On 12/7/2012 12:32 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/7/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote: On 12/7/2012 8:11 AM, dpb wrote: On 12/7/2012 7:54 AM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:30 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 9:22 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 6:10 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:39 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/6/2012 5:28 PM, dpb wrote: On 12/6/2012 4:52 PM, Leon wrote: "To answer your question: if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." ... So here is how I read this. If the lights go out you try not to continue sawing. In the event you are very close to the blade while cutting and the power fails the blade is going to stop more quickly and the brake may activate before the blade stops. How so????...they just explicitly said "under those conditions... touching the blade would not activate the safety system." Power for one to two seconds to trip the brake is enough. I think if you have a black out you are not likely to continue pushing your hand towards the blade and if you do the wood should stop the blade. ... I repeat their words... "So under those conditions (saw coasting down, no power to saw at all) touching the blade would not activate the safety system." No power, no trip... -- Read his first paragraph. He is just covering his ass in the event that does not work. Read his last words--he said it won't work reliable...which means it doesn't work and isn't intended to work. Does not work reliably = Does not work. Not in my world. When the designer/manufacturer says "would not activate the safety system" I think he says exactly what he means. He didn't even say it _might_ work; he said the event which is to be protected against "would not activate the safety system". Can't get more clear than that. Actually he did say it "might" work. copied from his reply, if there is a power failure while the saw is running, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off. Now granted any time after the 1~2 seconds you would be unprotected from the spinning blade. Again I read that as the stop might trigger at the moment after the power failure but not after 1~2 seconds. The operative word there is "might"...and if the discussion stopped there I might even tend to think he meant what you seem to want it to mean. But, he didn't--he went on and said it won't actuate. Just because it has some voltage that might keep the sensor electronics alive for a while that doesn't mean it'll have enough current to actually blow the fusible link when it wasn't designed for such. You're stretching for some reason I've no clue of why it seems so important to you. I'm killing the thread now so I'm no longer tempted to respond any longer...it's asinine. If you think there really is some way his words are misinterpreted then follow up and ask for the clarification but I think the odds are about Ivory pure that he'll tell you precisely what I've done--the sensor electronics may live for a short time but there's essentially no chance there's enough power to actually trigger the brake once't you pull the plug. -- Ok he said it might work for 1~2 seconds. BUT because it takes longer for spin down to happen it is not going to protect during the whole spin down time period, only the first 1~2 seconds. Since you do not know what my question to him was, that may be the problem. I asked if the saw would protect in the even of a power failure. A simple answer of NO would have been sufficient if it would not protect during a power failure. Because as he explained, the cartridge might stay powered for about 1-2 seconds at most while its internal voltage falls off, you might be protected for the second or two after the power failure. After that period of time you would not be protected during the remainder of the coast down. Either way, you are likely to be cut if every thing goes wrong but there is a slight window of opportunity where you ge an extra second or two that another brand saw would not afford you. Why not write back to them/him, quote the explanation and say, "Is this a yes or a no?" and end all speculation. Because the answer would be yes if every thing and the timing is just right for 1~2 seconds and no it would not work normally. It is not a designed feature so it might or might not work. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/9/2012 7:58 AM, Leon wrote:
.... Now I think we are seeing it the same way. ;~) The explanation would be similar to the selling the smoothness of the blade elevation wheel. You can turn it by hand or give it a quick spin and it will spin a few times on it's own. Not really a feature but something that might happen if the stars align properly. Glad to see you finally come around, Leon!!! :) vbg,d&r) -- |
Answer from SawStop
On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 08:21:12 -0500, phorbin wrote:
Why not write back to them/him, quote the explanation and say, "Is this a yes or a no?" and end all speculation. And for you, why not trim over 120 lines of wasted text? "Is this a yes or a no?" and end the speculation that you know what you're doing. |
Answer from SawStop
On 12/9/2012 8:42 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/9/2012 7:58 AM, Leon wrote: ... Now I think we are seeing it the same way. ;~) The explanation would be similar to the selling the smoothness of the blade elevation wheel. You can turn it by hand or give it a quick spin and it will spin a few times on it's own. Not really a feature but something that might happen if the stars align properly. Glad to see you finally come around, Leon!!! :) vbg,d&r) -- ;~O |
Answer from SawStop
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