http://www.tool-rank.com/tool-blog/N...-201207201251/

Dave wrote in
:

http://www.tool-rank.com/tool-blog/N...orking-on-a-sa
w-stop-mandate-work-around-201207201251/

"When a portion of the users body (hand) gets close enough to the blade to trigger the
safety mechanism, the kerf plate of the table saw is driven upward to push the hand (and
likely the material being cut) up and away from the saw blade".

Does anyone else here see a problem with this?

I can't see this sort of mechanism operating anywhere nearly as quickly as the SawStop.
While it might work fast enough to prevent an amputation, I very much doubt that it will be
able to prevent deep cuts and serious injury.

Also, it seems to me that this will almost guarantee a bad kickback if it triggers during a rip
cut: whether the work is guided by hand or by featherboards, it's almost sure to shift a little
bit at least, at the same time that it will be lifted clean off the table (and possibly over the rip
fence). While the device may succeed in preventing (or reducing the severity of) hand
injuries, I can see it *causing* a variety of other injuries, too.

Other questions arise, too: Will it work with shop-made zero clearance inserts (which are
non-conductive), or only with the metal factory throat plate? Will it function properly if there
are hold-downs in use?

I'm betting this never makes it to market.

On 7/21/2012 8:06 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
Dave wrote in
:

http://www.tool-rank.com/tool-blog/N...orking-on-a-sa
w-stop-mandate-work-around-201207201251/

"When a portion of the users body (hand) gets close enough to the blade to trigger the
safety mechanism, the kerf plate of the table saw is driven upward to push the hand (and
likely the material being cut) up and away from the saw blade".

IIRC it is when the hand touches the blade.

""Alternatively, according to a second aspect, the safety mechanism is
arranged to rapidly urge an extremity of the user away from the active
portion of the power tool." So from what I understand, the safety
mechanism detects contact with the blade (active portion), but instead
of stopping the blade, a second safety mechanism is used to move your
hand away from the blade."




Does anyone else here see a problem with this?

So far I don't.


I can't see this sort of mechanism operating anywhere nearly as quickly as the SawStop.
While it might work fast enough to prevent an amputation, I very much doubt that it will be
able to prevent deep cuts and serious injury.

I don't know, if the "lift" on the insert moves as quickly as the saw
stop brake it should work fast enough.

However the plate itself coming up that fast might break a finger,, ;~)



Also, it seems to me that this will almost guarantee a bad kickback if it triggers during a rip
cut: whether the work is guided by hand or by featherboards, it's almost sure to shift a little
bit at least, at the same time that it will be lifted clean off the table (and possibly over the rip
fence). While the device may succeed in preventing (or reducing the severity of) hand
injuries, I can see it *causing* a variety of other injuries, too.

I would think that if it triggers as quickly as the SawStop brake that a
kick back would probably be slight at most.





Other questions arise, too: Will it work with shop-made zero clearance inserts (which are
non-conductive), or only with the metal factory throat plate? Will it function properly if there
are hold-downs in use?

Again since it was inferred that it activates when touching the blade
the material for the insert should not be a factor in triggering.

But then again they double speak and mention when it detects when the
hand is close enough to the blade.

Hard to say what the mean exactly..


I'm betting this never makes it to market.

Perhaps but there was a vast number that said the same about the SawStop.

I also thought about the finger-breaking possibility, too. Kind of like
air bags, which can break glasses, thumbs, or even arms if they get in
the way.

I also wonder about cuts in heavy wood. I don't know about you, but
sometimes I cut large, heavy planks, but not too thick. So if you are
cutting a heavy wide board, weighing 10 or 15 lbs., can this thing push
it up fast enough to urge your fingers out of the way?

As far as the SawStop controversy, jeez, will everyone just get over it?
In mass production it will add a small amount to the prices of saws,
can be disabled if not desired, and if automatically mounted on all saws
will protect the idiots who value a few dollars over their fingers.
Just like seat belts and air bags in cars. They come with the cars, but
can be disabled. If some guys really, really, really want saws without
SawStops, there are uncountable used saws on the market in great condition.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 07:54:57 -0700, scritch
Just like seat belts and air bags in cars. They come with the cars, but
can be disabled. If some guys really, really, really want saws without
SawStops, there are uncountable used saws on the market in great condition.

It's not the money that everybody is PO ed off about. It's "How dare
anyone try to have my money regulated away from me."

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 07:54:57 -0700, scritch wrote:

I also thought about the finger-breaking possibility, too. Kind of like
air bags, which can break glasses, thumbs, or even arms if they get in
the way.

I also wonder about cuts in heavy wood. I don't know about you, but
sometimes I cut large, heavy planks, but not too thick. So if you are
cutting a heavy wide board, weighing 10 or 15 lbs., can this thing push
it up fast enough to urge your fingers out of the way?

As far as the SawStop controversy, jeez, will everyone just get over it?
In mass production it will add a small amount to the prices of saws,
can be disabled if not desired, and if automatically mounted on all saws
will protect the idiots who value a few dollars over their fingers.
Just like seat belts and air bags in cars. They come with the cars, but
can be disabled. If some guys really, really, really want saws without
SawStops, there are uncountable used saws on the market in great condition.

The issue has *nothing* to do with the cost of the hardware. jeez

Subject

Why bother?

Lew

On 7/21/2012 9:06 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
Dave wrote in
:

http://www.tool-rank.com/tool-blog/N...orking-on-a-sa
w-stop-mandate-work-around-201207201251/

"When a portion of the users body (hand) gets close enough to the blade to trigger the
safety mechanism, the kerf plate of the table saw is driven upward to push the hand (and
likely the material being cut) up and away from the saw blade".

Does anyone else here see a problem with this?

I can't see this sort of mechanism operating anywhere nearly as quickly as the SawStop.
While it might work fast enough to prevent an amputation, I very much doubt that it will be
able to prevent deep cuts and serious injury.

Also, it seems to me that this will almost guarantee a bad kickback if it triggers during a rip
cut: whether the work is guided by hand or by featherboards, it's almost sure to shift a little
bit at least, at the same time that it will be lifted clean off the table (and possibly over the rip
fence). While the device may succeed in preventing (or reducing the severity of) hand
injuries, I can see it *causing* a variety of other injuries, too.
Imagine a light piece of 1/2 square being cut.. and triggering while the
miter gauge and fingers are in place. The miter gauge binds... Now you
have a real problem.. Or the 1/2 sq. piece is thrown at the user at a
high rate.

Other questions arise, too: Will it work with shop-made zero clearance inserts (which are
non-conductive), or only with the metal factory throat plate? Will it function properly if there
are hold-downs in use?
I agree, this is probably a big problem.

I'm betting this never makes it to market.

Me too. I think it has a set of problems, but it's a good start.
I still like Saw Stop, but maybe Gass has exceeded his welcome...

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 11:43:45 -0400, Dave wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 07:54:57 -0700, scritch
Just like seat belts and air bags in cars. They come with the cars, but
can be disabled. If some guys really, really, really want saws without
SawStops, there are uncountable used saws on the market in great condition.

It's not the money that everybody is PO ed off about. It's "How dare
anyone try to have my money regulated away from me."

It's more than that. It's more "how dare they regulate money from my pocket
into Gass'". ...or how dare they give a product with a legal monopoly
(patent) a real market monopoly (all power saws).

In article , says...

I also thought about the finger-breaking possibility, too. Kind of like
air bags, which can break glasses, thumbs, or even arms if they get in
the way.

I also wonder about cuts in heavy wood. I don't know about you, but
sometimes I cut large, heavy planks, but not too thick. So if you are
cutting a heavy wide board, weighing 10 or 15 lbs., can this thing push
it up fast enough to urge your fingers out of the way?

As far as the SawStop controversy, jeez, will everyone just get over it?
In mass production it will add a small amount to the prices of saws,
can be disabled if not desired, and if automatically mounted on all saws
will protect the idiots who value a few dollars over their fingers.
Just like seat belts and air bags in cars. They come with the cars, but
can be disabled. If some guys really, really, really want saws without
SawStops, there are uncountable used saws on the market in great condition.

Cost is not the issue. The issue is the government forcing us to buy
something that we don't want and that can be harmful because someone who
will be profiting from it has lobbied for its being made mandatory.

Air bags in cars have killed people, including children, and it is
debatable whether the actually save more lives than the seat belts which
people now routinely wear to protect themselves from the airbags.

Airbag manufacturers, since they lobbied for the product to be made
mandatory, should be strictly liable for all injuries caused by their
product and criminally liable for all deaths caused by it. The same
should be so for any other manufacturer who lobbies for a product to be
made mandatory.

Doug Miller wrote:

I can't see this sort of mechanism operating anywhere nearly as
quickly as the SawStop.
While it might work fast enough to prevent an amputation, I very much
doubt that it will be
able to prevent deep cuts and serious injury.

Also, it seems to me that this will almost guarantee a bad kickback
if it triggers during a rip cut: whether the work is guided by hand
or by featherboards, it's almost sure to shift a little
bit at least, at the same time that it will be lifted clean off the
table (and possibly over the rip fence). While the device may succeed
in preventing (or reducing the severity of) hand
injuries, I can see it *causing* a variety of other injuries, too.

Other questions arise, too: Will it work with shop-made zero
clearance inserts (which are non-conductive), or only with the metal
factory throat plate? Will it function properly if there are
hold-downs in use?


It doesn't have to work with inserts or very well at all.

The only thing it has to do is satisfy the (proposed) California
requirements.

On 7/21/2012 9:34 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Other questions arise, too: Will it work with shop-made zero
clearance inserts (which are non-conductive), or only with the metal
factory throat plate? Will it function properly if there are
hold-downs in use?

It doesn't have to work with inserts or very well at all.

The only thing it has to do is satisfy the (proposed) California
requirements.

I think a little C3 planted around the insert set to blow your hand off
before you could possibly whack off a fing-ee would suffice. In
California a LOT of C3 would be even better...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com