Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 8:44 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
The whole country is F'd by the ability of the politicians to print
money.
The U.S Government does not print money. The Federal Reserve Bank does
that. And the Federal Reserve Bank is a private corporation not run by
politicians. We're still screwed, but we should be clear about who is
the screwer.


If you think the screwer is the Fed (the "Federal Reserve", not the
Federal Reserve Bank), you are not paying attention. Although, they
deserve some of the credit, in recent years, for articially keeping the
Fed Funds Rate (the rate that commercial banks can borrow at)so darn
low, which tranlates into 1% rates on CDs, etc.

Don't wish to be nit-picky, but it's the "Bureau of Printing &
Engraving", I believe, which prints money. I've seen them do it!
They print the bills in big sheets and then cut em up! The tourist is
left thinking, "Could I maybe take one home as a souvenir?"

On 5/23/2012 9:44 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
The whole country is F'd by the ability of the politicians to print
money. When the govt is the debtor, and they hold the debt there is
something wrong.

Everytime they print money our self worth becomes less. And fixing it
becomes less obtainable.

I agree to some extent however if the government did not print more
money/put more in circulation the economy would not grow. For example
if there were only one trillion US dollars to work with the economy
would get worse as the population grows. Read that as fewer dollars
available per person. And when those that do not spend every dollar
they make there are fewer dollars in circulation.

One of the problems is printing more money to pay government dept before
taxes are collected for that purpose.

Basically there are several reasons that the government prints more
money to increase circulation. Paying off debt is not a good one.

On Thu, 24 May 2012 01:17:27 -0400, Bill wrote:

Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 8:44 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
The whole country is F'd by the ability of the politicians to print
money.
The U.S Government does not print money. The Federal Reserve Bank does
that. And the Federal Reserve Bank is a private corporation not run by
politicians. We're still screwed, but we should be clear about who is
the screwer.


If you think the screwer is the Fed (the "Federal Reserve", not the
Federal Reserve Bank), you are not paying attention. Although, they
deserve some of the credit, in recent years, for articially keeping the
Fed Funds Rate (the rate that commercial banks can borrow at)so darn
low, which tranlates into 1% rates on CDs, etc.

Don't wish to be nit-picky, but it's the "Bureau of Printing &
Engraving", I believe, which prints money. I've seen them do it!
They print the bills in big sheets and then cut em up! The tourist is
left thinking, "Could I maybe take one home as a souvenir?"

Yes, a sheet of Woodrow Wilson bills, please! ($100,000 apiece!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_d...tates_currency

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2012 01:17:27 -0400, wrote:

Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 8:44 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
The whole country is F'd by the ability of the politicians to print
money.
The U.S Government does not print money. The Federal Reserve Bank does
that. And the Federal Reserve Bank is a private corporation not run by
politicians. We're still screwed, but we should be clear about who is
the screwer.


If you think the screwer is the Fed (the "Federal Reserve", not the
Federal Reserve Bank), you are not paying attention. Although, they
deserve some of the credit, in recent years, for articially keeping the
Fed Funds Rate (the rate that commercial banks can borrow at)so darn
low, which tranlates into 1% rates on CDs, etc.

Don't wish to be nit-picky, but it's the "Bureau of Printing&
Engraving", I believe, which prints money. I've seen them do it!
They print the bills in big sheets and then cut em up! The tourist is
left thinking, "Could I maybe take one home as a souvenir?"

Yes, a sheet of Woodrow Wilson bills, please! ($100,000 apiece!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_d...tates_currency


Backed in Gold too! Not sure whether the G'ment had fixed the price of
Gold when those bills were circulated (1929). I remember when it was
fixed at $20/oz, or so.





--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

On 5/23/2012 11:17 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 8:44 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
The whole country is F'd by the ability of the politicians to print
money.
The U.S Government does not print money. The Federal Reserve Bank does
that. And the Federal Reserve Bank is a private corporation not run by
politicians. We're still screwed, but we should be clear about who is
the screwer.


If you think the screwer is the Fed (the "Federal Reserve", not the
Federal Reserve Bank), you are not paying attention. Although, they
deserve some of the credit, in recent years, for articially keeping the
Fed Funds Rate (the rate that commercial banks can borrow at)so darn
low, which tranlates into 1% rates on CDs, etc.

Don't wish to be nit-picky, but it's the "Bureau of Printing &
Engraving", I believe, which prints money. I've seen them do it!
They print the bills in big sheets and then cut em up! The tourist is
left thinking, "Could I maybe take one home as a souvenir?"

Actually, what the Bureau prints is not money, it's promissory notes
issued by the Federal Reserve System. (The Bureau also prints documents
(but not money) for the U.S. government.) The Federal Reserve System
includes 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks. Those regional banks are
owned, NOT by the federal government, but by privately owned national
banks and some state banks that meet certain requirements. About 38
percent of the nation’s more than 8,000 banks are members of the system,
and thus own the Fed banks.

Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 11:17 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 8:44 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
The whole country is F'd by the ability of the politicians to print
money.
The U.S Government does not print money. The Federal Reserve Bank does
that. And the Federal Reserve Bank is a private corporation not run by
politicians. We're still screwed, but we should be clear about who is
the screwer.


If you think the screwer is the Fed (the "Federal Reserve", not the
Federal Reserve Bank), you are not paying attention. Although, they
deserve some of the credit, in recent years, for articially keeping the
Fed Funds Rate (the rate that commercial banks can borrow at)so darn
low, which tranlates into 1% rates on CDs, etc.

Don't wish to be nit-picky, but it's the "Bureau of Printing &
Engraving", I believe, which prints money. I've seen them do it!
They print the bills in big sheets and then cut em up! The tourist is
left thinking, "Could I maybe take one home as a souvenir?"

Actually, what the Bureau prints is not money, it's promissory notes
issued by the Federal Reserve System. (The Bureau also prints documents
(but not money) for the U.S. government.) The Federal Reserve System
includes 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks. Those regional banks are
owned, NOT by the federal government, but by privately owned national
banks and some state banks that meet certain requirements. About 38
percent of the nation’s more than 8,000 banks are members of the system,
and thus own the Fed banks.

I disagree that commercial banks own the Federal Reserve Banks. As you
said, the Federal Reserve Banks (which are not commmercial banks) carry
out the business of the Federal Reserve. It is the Fed which sets
reserve requirements, and other rules and requirements, that commercial
banks must obey--and not the other way around. In particular, for
instance, the Fed sets the Fed Funds Rate and chooses a path of monetary
policy. Commercial banks follow suit--they definitely do not call the
shots for the Federal Reserve Banks. That the Federal Reserve Banks may
hold some assets of the Commercial Banks does NOT make them the
"owners"--any more than an checking account at a commercial account
makes you a part owner.

On 5/24/2012 8:16 PM, Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 11:17 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 8:44 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
The whole country is F'd by the ability of the politicians to print
money.
The U.S Government does not print money. The Federal Reserve Bank
does
that. And the Federal Reserve Bank is a private corporation not
run by
politicians. We're still screwed, but we should be clear about who is
the screwer.


If you think the screwer is the Fed (the "Federal Reserve", not the
Federal Reserve Bank), you are not paying attention. Although, they
deserve some of the credit, in recent years, for articially keeping
the
Fed Funds Rate (the rate that commercial banks can borrow at)so darn
low, which tranlates into 1% rates on CDs, etc.

Don't wish to be nit-picky, but it's the "Bureau of Printing &
Engraving", I believe, which prints money. I've seen them do it!
They print the bills in big sheets and then cut em up! The tourist is
left thinking, "Could I maybe take one home as a souvenir?"

Actually, what the Bureau prints is not money, it's promissory notes
issued by the Federal Reserve System. (The Bureau also prints documents
(but not money) for the U.S. government.) The Federal Reserve System
includes 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks. Those regional banks are
owned, NOT by the federal government, but by privately owned national
banks and some state banks that meet certain requirements. About 38
percent of the nation’s more than 8,000 banks are members of the system,
and thus own the Fed banks.

I disagree that commercial banks own the Federal Reserve Banks.

Your disagreement does not change the facts.

As you said, the Federal Reserve Banks (which are not commmercial
banks) carry out the business of the Federal Reserve. It is the Fed
which sets reserve requirements, and other rules and requirements,
that commercial banks must obey--and not the other way around. In
particular, for instance, the Fed sets the Fed Funds Rate and chooses
a path of monetary policy. Commercial banks follow suit--they
definitely do not call the shots for the Federal Reserve Banks.

You're confusing ownership with control The Federal Reserve Banks are
controlled by a 12-member panel. The commercial banks/owners choose
five members of the panel; the President chooses the other seven.

That the Federal Reserve Banks may hold some assets of the Commercial
Banks does NOT make them the "owners"--any more than an checking
account at a commercial account makes you a part owner.

But the fact that the Federal Reserve Banks are owned by stockholders,
and it is the commercial banks who own the stock, does make them the owners.

Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/24/2012 8:16 PM, Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 11:17 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/23/2012 8:44 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
The whole country is F'd by the ability of the politicians to print
money.
The U.S Government does not print money. The Federal Reserve Bank
does
that. And the Federal Reserve Bank is a private corporation not
run by
politicians. We're still screwed, but we should be clear about who is
the screwer.


If you think the screwer is the Fed (the "Federal Reserve", not the
Federal Reserve Bank), you are not paying attention. Although, they
deserve some of the credit, in recent years, for articially keeping
the
Fed Funds Rate (the rate that commercial banks can borrow at)so darn
low, which tranlates into 1% rates on CDs, etc.

Don't wish to be nit-picky, but it's the "Bureau of Printing &
Engraving", I believe, which prints money. I've seen them do it!
They print the bills in big sheets and then cut em up! The tourist is
left thinking, "Could I maybe take one home as a souvenir?"

Actually, what the Bureau prints is not money, it's promissory notes
issued by the Federal Reserve System. (The Bureau also prints documents
(but not money) for the U.S. government.) The Federal Reserve System
includes 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks. Those regional banks are
owned, NOT by the federal government, but by privately owned national
banks and some state banks that meet certain requirements. About 38
percent of the nation’s more than 8,000 banks are members of the system,
and thus own the Fed banks.

I disagree that commercial banks own the Federal Reserve Banks.

Your disagreement does not change the facts.

As you said, the Federal Reserve Banks (which are not commmercial
banks) carry out the business of the Federal Reserve. It is the Fed
which sets reserve requirements, and other rules and requirements,
that commercial banks must obey--and not the other way around. In
particular, for instance, the Fed sets the Fed Funds Rate and chooses
a path of monetary policy. Commercial banks follow suit--they
definitely do not call the shots for the Federal Reserve Banks.

You're confusing ownership with control The Federal Reserve Banks are
controlled by a 12-member panel.


Like you say, I confuse Control with Ownership. To me, the latter
typically implies the former--and that's what I thought you were
suggesting. Since you are not, I'm not sure what sort of meaningful
inference you want to make.


The commercial banks/owners choose five
members of the panel; the President chooses the other seven.

That the Federal Reserve Banks may hold some assets of the Commercial
Banks does NOT make them the "owners"--any more than an checking
account at a commercial account makes you a part owner.

But the fact that the Federal Reserve Banks are owned by stockholders,

I wouldn't say that. That the Fed has "policing power" makes it quite
different than a corporation--it's interwined with government, as you've
indicated above.


and it is the commercial banks who own the stock, does make them the
owners.

No. I would say that the The Federal Reserve is owned by the U.S.
citizens, like the highways and the national debt are. The fact that
some banks deposit money there does not change my point of view. YMMV.

The fed is not owned by the citizens Bill.

owners.

No. I would say that the The Federal Reserve is owned by the U.S.
citizens, like the highways and the national debt are. The fact that
some banks deposit money there does not change my point of view. YMMV.

tiredofspam wrote:
The fed is not owned by the citizens Bill.

In your last post, you wanted to say it was owned by the commercial banks.

It is hard to deny that the federal is ours, whether we approve of its
actions or not. A little like the presidency. It is OUR office.
The fed works, or is supposed to, in our national (i.e. collective)
interest. No one is going to liquidate the Federal Reserve, so the
notion of "ownership" is mute, IMO.




owners.

No. I would say that the The Federal Reserve is owned by the U.S.
citizens, like the highways and the national debt are. The fact that
some banks deposit money there does not change my point of view. YMMV.

Bill that was not my post about it being owned by commercial banks.. It
was a reply to a thread.

As far as the Fed, it has clearly overstepped it's bounds.

And so has our government. After reading a book on this recently it was
brought to light that the feds were prohibited from printing money or
minting. Only the states were given that right.

All of this by the founding fathers to prevent what is happening today.
Where politicians raid the coffers and print money to pay debt. The
states were granted the right to MINT money of a known weight and
quality... talking about precious metals... not paper.

The feds had no rights granted. And history shows why.

On 5/25/2012 1:58 PM, Bill wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
The fed is not owned by the citizens Bill.

In your last post, you wanted to say it was owned by the commercial banks.

It is hard to deny that the federal is ours, whether we approve of its
actions or not. A little like the presidency. It is OUR office.
The fed works, or is supposed to, in our national (i.e. collective)
interest. No one is going to liquidate the Federal Reserve, so the
notion of "ownership" is mute, IMO.




owners.

No. I would say that the The Federal Reserve is owned by the U.S.
citizens, like the highways and the national debt are. The fact that
some banks deposit money there does not change my point of view. YMMV.

On 5/25/2012 2:41 AM, Bill wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/24/2012 8:16 PM, Bill wrote:


The commercial banks/owners choose five members of the panel; the
President chooses the other seven.

That the Federal Reserve Banks may hold some assets of the Commercial
Banks does NOT make them the "owners"--any more than an checking
account at a commercial account makes you a part owner.

But the fact that the Federal Reserve Banks are owned by stockholders,

I wouldn't say that. That the Fed has "policing power" makes it quite
different than a corporation--it's interwined with government, as
you've indicated above.

(a) What "policing power" does the Federal Reserve System have?
(b) Yet the Fed IS a corporation.


and it is the commercial banks who own the stock, does make them the
owners.

No. I would say that the The Federal Reserve is owned by the U.S.
citizens,

Yes, you can certainly that. You're wrong, but don't let that stop you.

like the highways and the national debt are.

(a) What highways are owned by the U.S. Citizens? Where can I find the
deed of title?

(b) The federal debt is not owned by the U.S. Citizens.

The fact that some banks deposit money there does not change my point
of view.

Apparently neither does the fact that the Fed has stockholders who own
the corporation.

On 5/25/2012 1:36 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
After reading a book on this recently it was brought to light that the
feds were prohibited from printing money or minting. Only the states
were given that right.

All of this by the founding fathers to prevent what is happening
today. Where politicians raid the coffers and print money to pay
debt. The states were granted the right to MINT money of a known
weight and quality... talking about precious metals... not paper.

The feds had no rights granted. And history shows why.

Then please explain the meaning of Article I Section 8 of the U.S.
Constitution, which says: "The Congress shall have power . . . to
coin Money, [and] regulate the Value thereof . . ."

BTW, I would point out that the paper bills in your wallet are not
technically money. They are promissory notes representing a debt owed
to their holders by the Federal Reserve banks.

COIN

They have no rights to print money (promissory notes eiter).

BTW read that carefuly. I believe that paper which has no value.
And since gold was removed from backing the dollar, it really has no
value... what does it mean..



On 5/25/2012 5:04 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 5/25/2012 1:36 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
After reading a book on this recently it was brought to light that the
feds were prohibited from printing money or minting. Only the states
were given that right.

All of this by the founding fathers to prevent what is happening
today. Where politicians raid the coffers and print money to pay debt.
The states were granted the right to MINT money of a known weight and
quality... talking about precious metals... not paper.

The feds had no rights granted. And history shows why.

Then please explain the meaning of Article I Section 8 of the U.S.
Constitution, which says: "The Congress shall have power . . . to coin
Money, [and] regulate the Value thereof . . ."

BTW, I would point out that the paper bills in your wallet are not
technically money. They are promissory notes representing a debt owed to
their holders by the Federal Reserve banks.

tiredofspam wrote:
Bill that was not my post about it being owned by commercial banks.. It
was a reply to a thread.

As far as the Fed, it has clearly overstepped it's bounds.

And so has our government. After reading a book on this recently it was
brought to light that the feds were prohibited from printing money or
minting. Only the states were given that right.

The Fed is responsible for a great deal to do with the currency. They DO
affect the money supply by:

1. Changing reserve requirements for commercial banks.
2. Setting the "discount rate" that commercial banks can borrow
(currently very low).
3. Open market operations (buying and selling various financial
instruments from commercial banks).


My knowedge of this is 30 years old, but I found a link for anyone
who is interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation