Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022 x113
01.908.542.0244
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-HQ.com
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://www.Drill-HQ.com/?page_id=226
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill


V8013-R

On 2011-10-20, Joe AutoDrill wrote:
Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.

Screw compressor, no doubt. You need a 200-250 HP compressor.

I just sold a nice screw compressor, 25 HP.

i

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:37:10 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022 x113
01.908.542.0244
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-HQ.com
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://www.Drill-HQ.com/?page_id=226
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill


V8013-R



Cameron Compressor has a plant in Cheektowaga, NY, a suburb of
Buffalo. My old neighbor worked there.

Here's one of their smaller ones:
http://www.c-a-m.com/forms/Product.a...6-db8a312b326b

A couple of years ago one of the workers there was killed after being
sucked into the intake of one of their larger compressors.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an
aluminum bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two
newsgroups)...
In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him
he needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM,
had an air dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you
have.
If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run
across so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about
when I quote these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw
compressor... But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with
that guess too.

Damn Joe - you're out of my league! I've got a great compressor, but
geeze...

--

-Mike-

Damn Joe - you're out of my league! I've got a great compressor, but
geeze...

Hey now... I use a small 3 ph. compressor for all I do and when it craps
out, I have enough air from a 180 psi. Craftsman unit to cover me. I barely
use any air... It takes me a week or two to fix the 3 ph. unit (usually,
someone forgot to check the oil) and I'm back up at 10x my needed capacity
again.

However, I only really stroke a few air cylinders at a time while breaking
in machines. My customers run the air cylinders, air motors, air clamps,
air bagel dispensors, air coffee makers, etc. Some of these shops think air
is free. I'm constatly trying to talk people into 3 phase motors rather
than air motors but I'll happily supply either.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022 x113
01.908.542.0244
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-HQ.com
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://www.Drill-HQ.com/?page_id=226
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill


V8013-R

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:37:10 -0400, Joe AutoDrill wrote:

Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022 x113
01.908.542.0244
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-HQ.com
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://www.Drill-HQ.com/?page_id=226
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill


V8013-R

Joe,

Were using about 1500hp of compressors here at work, the largest
units are 200hp ingersoll rand screws at 875 CFM at 125 psi,
if you only needed 90psi, you could get close with a 200hp
but otherwise you would have to go to a 250hp or even a 300hp
for even higher pressure.

basilisk

Joe,

Were using about 1500hp of compressors here at work, the largest
units are 200hp ingersoll rand screws at 875 CFM at 125 psi,
if you only needed 90psi, you could get close with a 200hp
but otherwise you would have to go to a 250hp or even a 300hp
for even higher pressure.

basilisk

That's about what I figured he would need. Rule of thumb for me is 4 SCFM
per HP.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022 x113
01.908.542.0244
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-HQ.com
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://www.Drill-HQ.com/?page_id=226
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill


V8013-R

"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
...
Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an
aluminum bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two
newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an
air dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run
across so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I
quote these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.
V8013-R


Before my retirement, I was Engineering Manager fora number of production
companies,and we always had compressed air available. My best results
generally was with Atlas Copco screw compressors and refrigerated air
dryers. They varied in size from 500 to 2000 CFM.
If capital is readily available, then get one with an inverter drive. Over a
few years the electrical cost savings will pay for the additional cost. A
refrigerated air dryer, is necessary. If you expect to use the compressed
air for food or pharmecuetical use then an oil free compressor is required.

On 2011-10-20, Joe AutoDrill wrote:
Joe,

Were using about 1500hp of compressors here at work, the largest
units are 200hp ingersoll rand screws at 875 CFM at 125 psi,
if you only needed 90psi, you could get close with a 200hp
but otherwise you would have to go to a 250hp or even a 300hp
for even higher pressure.

basilisk

That's about what I figured he would need. Rule of thumb for me is 4 SCFM
per HP.

totally wrong for screw compresors at 100 PSI

On 10/20/2011 01:37 PM, Joe AutoDrill wrote:
Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.
Well, I did see some gigantic Ingersoll one-lung compressors in a
factory here on a tour. I was amazed they were from 1952. Gigantic
horizontal cylinder about 8 - 10" diameter and probably a stroke
of a foot.

But, today, everything big is rotary screw. 1000 CFM, if you are
serious, is a HUGE compressor, and I doubt you can get a single unit
in that size. They may come up to 500 CFM, but maybe they just make
them bigger and I've just never seen one that size.

If you really need 1000 CFM, there may be serious power supply problems,
this could require power for a several hundred HP motor.

Jon

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:37:10 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.

I haven't worked on anything THAT Big, but Rule Number One in an
industrial situation is you do NOT get one huge compressor and dryer
to supply a factory - that one compressor fails, and you're screwed.

You get three screw compressors and refrigerated air dryers to match,
at roughly 500 CFM each. Three units where two will handle all your
needs gives you one down for maintenance and the place keeps running.
And if one's already down for maintenance or repair and a second one
dies, you have to cut consumption but you still aren't dead in the
water.

You hook them up to a big manifold and have shutoff valves and
vent/drain valves everywhere, so you can isolate the compressors and
air driers under service and keep the main trunk line for the factory
up and running.

And always plan the manifold oversized, because no matter how well you
plan the needs will always grow. You'll want to add another big
compressor or two as your needs grow.

And you have the Plumbers and Fitters rig the compressors and driers
up so you can shut down, disconnect, and slide one of them out for
service while leaving the others running.

Ring Mains in the factory with several shutoffs around the ring, so
you can isolate sections for service (or to stop off a huge leak)
while the rest of the place stays up.

Oh, and you still want to have a smaller (25 HP) piston unit or two
around to hold pressure overnight for the Maintenance Crew, or for
"Oh, S***!" situations. Like the big screw compressors 480V
transformer or Motor Control Center just died, and the 25-HP one is
fed from a separate 480V power system and still runs.

You don't want to leave a screw compressor running all night for
nothing, and the Maintenance Crew doesn't want to mess with starting a
unit up.

-- Bruce --

"Jon Elson" wrote:

If you really need 1000 CFM, there may be serious power supply
problems,
this could require power for a several hundred HP motor.
---------------------------------------
Back in the days when I was involved with such things, the rule of
thumb to limit induction motor powered air compressors to 100 HP.

Above 100 HP, it was synchronous motor time.

Lew

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022 x113
01.908.542.0244
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-HQ.com
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://www.Drill-HQ.com/?page_id=226
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill


Yup, you're looking at a 250-300 HP screw compressor.

Quincy QSI 1000
Ingersol Rand SSR3000

Or newer unit of the same style. We had the SSR3000 in the old shop.
NOISY SOB in a small space.

--
Steve W.

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:37:10 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.


Today, the most economical are usually variable speed screw. There
are still some recips, like the Ingersol Rand models that run at 100%,
50%, or 0% depending on load.

For 1000 cfm, you need about 150 HP. Good places to start are Kaeser,
Ingersol Rand, Atlas Copco.

You need a well laid out installation also. Receiver tank(s), proper
sized lines, proper piping, etc. You need a lot of 3 phase power
also. A really good sales person can do all of that for you.

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 22:46:24 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:37:10 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.


Today, the most economical are usually variable speed screw. There
are still some recips, like the Ingersol Rand models that run at 100%,
50%, or 0% depending on load.

For 1000 cfm, you need about 150 HP. Good places to start are Kaeser,
Ingersol Rand, Atlas Copco.

You need a well laid out installation also. Receiver tank(s), proper
sized lines, proper piping, etc. You need a lot of 3 phase power
also. A really good sales person can do all of that for you.

A friend's manufacturing business uses a very moderate amount of air
MOST of the time, but when the autoclave requires pressurization it
takes a LOT of air. He runs the main shop on a 10HP electric
compressor - Webster I think, on a 50-ish gallon tank. When the
autoclave is fired up, it is pressurized by a good sized diesel
compressor - I think it's an Atlas Copco - a wheeled unit like used
for air hammers etc in construction semi permanently installed in a
corner of the shop, with external exhaust and air intakes and a
furnace type oil tank that is filled from outside.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

You need a well laid out installation also. Receiver tank(s),
proper
sized lines, proper piping, etc. You need a lot of 3 phase power
also. A really good sales person can do all of that for you.
--------------------------------------
An excellent distribution system consists of a rectangular layout of
8" pipe with 4" pipe cross feeds.

Typical pipe lay for a 60' x 100' building would be 40' x 80' with 40'
cross feeds of 4" pipe..

Eliminates the needs for receivers and minimizes pressure drop from
high demand loads.

Lew

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:48:07 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

You need a well laid out installation also. Receiver tank(s),
proper
sized lines, proper piping, etc. You need a lot of 3 phase power
also. A really good sales person can do all of that for you.
--------------------------------------
An excellent distribution system consists of a rectangular layout of
8" pipe with 4" pipe cross feeds.

Typical pipe lay for a 60' x 100' building would be 40' x 80' with 40'
cross feeds of 4" pipe..

Eliminates the needs for receivers and minimizes pressure drop from
high demand loads.

Lew


Price out that 8" pipe and you'll probably buy a receiver.

It also depends on the point of use of the air. If it is all used in
one place, why pipe the entire perimeter with 8" pipe?

We have our machine area piped with 4" on the perimeter and have a
receiver at each end. To the rest of the plant, a 3/4" copper line
handles it all as it is only maintenance use.

Aside from everything else, check local laws. In our state, receivers
and safety valves must be permitted and be inspected every two years.
That 5 HP compressor many of you have in the garage is OK, but in a
factory, the tank is subject to inspection.

I've read several of the posts, and this one is cram full of
real world wisdom. I'd guess that the refrigerated air
dryers are also able to be isolated, and removed for
service? I'd guess that refrigerated air dryers need regular
service. Condensor cleaned, freon checked.

Drip loops (legs?), and drains are important. I worked as a
refrigeration repair guy in a place that had a poorly
designed air system. The guys were doing sanding and
painting with compressed air. They used to complain that the
air sanders would spit water out, and mess up their work.
The pipe was over head, and came down to the air outlets. No
drip legs (natural gas appliances have drip legs, but not
seen a drain for the drip leg).

Valving off the various parts for maintenance sounds wise.
Many compressors have lubricating oil to check and top off.
Sight glass, or dipstick.

Compressors are often very noisy. Check around, and find a
way to build them into thier own building with LOTS of sound
deadening. Techs in the building likely need ear plugs and
sound protection ear muffs. Way to communicate with
temporarily deaf techs, since they won't be hearing a walkie
talkie or cell phone. Texting?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)"
wrote in message
...

I haven't worked on anything THAT Big, but Rule Number One
in an
industrial situation is you do NOT get one huge compressor
and dryer
to supply a factory - that one compressor fails, and you're
screwed.

You get three screw compressors and refrigerated air dryers
to match,
at roughly 500 CFM each. Three units where two will handle
all your
needs gives you one down for maintenance and the place keeps
running.
And if one's already down for maintenance or repair and a
second one
dies, you have to cut consumption but you still aren't dead
in the
water.

You hook them up to a big manifold and have shutoff valves
and
vent/drain valves everywhere, so you can isolate the
compressors and
air driers under service and keep the main trunk line for
the factory
up and running.

And always plan the manifold oversized, because no matter
how well you
plan the needs will always grow. You'll want to add another
big
compressor or two as your needs grow.

And you have the Plumbers and Fitters rig the compressors
and driers
up so you can shut down, disconnect, and slide one of them
out for
service while leaving the others running.

Ring Mains in the factory with several shutoffs around the
ring, so
you can isolate sections for service (or to stop off a huge
leak)
while the rest of the place stays up.

Oh, and you still want to have a smaller (25 HP) piston unit
or two
around to hold pressure overnight for the Maintenance Crew,
or for
"Oh, S***!" situations. Like the big screw compressors 480V
transformer or Motor Control Center just died, and the 25-HP
one is
fed from a separate 480V power system and still runs.

You don't want to leave a screw compressor running all night
for
nothing, and the Maintenance Crew doesn't want to mess with
starting a
unit up.

-- Bruce --

With that much need for HP, is it practical to get a diesel
powered engine unit, and feed it home heating oil as fuel
source? After all, it's not a road vehicle, and isn't
subject to over the road fuel taxes. Might work out cheaper
than running multiple aught electrical wire, and feeding the
electric bill.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve W." wrote in message
...

Yup, you're looking at a 250-300 HP screw compressor.

Quincy QSI 1000
Ingersol Rand SSR3000

Or newer unit of the same style. We had the SSR3000 in the
old shop.
NOISY SOB in a small space.

--
Steve W.

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:37:10 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

Just ran across a client who needed me to quote some drills for an aluminum
bracket / wood backer application (Thus the copy to two newsgroups)...

In the end, his quote was for somewhere close to $100k and I told him he
needed to find a quality compressor that could supply 1000 SCFM, had an air
dryer, etc.

I've never run across such an animal, but I'm guessing some of you have.

If you don't mind, tell me about the larger compressors you have run across
so at least I can *act* like I know what I'm talking about when I quote
these things...

I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.

I think you are correct. I know of a piston compressor that will put out
1000 SCFM..but it weighs about 6000 lbs and has a 25hp motor on it.

Screw is the way to go.

Gunner


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022 x113
01.908.542.0244
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-HQ.com
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://www.Drill-HQ.com/?page_id=226
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://www.facebook.com/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill


V8013-R



One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:45:19 -0700, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:


I haven't worked on anything THAT Big, but Rule Number One in an
industrial situation is you do NOT get one huge compressor and dryer
to supply a factory - that one compressor fails, and you're screwed.

You get three screw compressors and refrigerated air dryers to match,
at roughly 500 CFM each. Three units where two will handle all your
needs gives you one down for maintenance and the place keeps running.
And if one's already down for maintenance or repair and a second one
dies, you have to cut consumption but you still aren't dead in the
water.

Absolutely correct!

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 14:08:19 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


I presume anything close to that size is going to be a screw compressor...
But I could be indicating my lack of knowledge with that guess too.

I think you are correct. I know of a piston compressor that will put out
1000 SCFM..but it weighs about 6000 lbs and has a 25hp motor on it.

Screw is the way to go.

Gunner

That should be 250 hp motor. Sorry

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 07:10:07 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

With that much need for HP, is it practical to get a diesel
powered engine unit, and feed it home heating oil as fuel
source? After all, it's not a road vehicle, and isn't
subject to over the road fuel taxes. Might work out cheaper
than running multiple aught electrical wire, and feeding the
electric bill.

It's practical as a backup - but primarily when the rest of the
operation is air powered (or you also have a good backup generator)
and you don't need Utility Power to keep the rest of the show going.

I wouldn't use it as a daily Prime Mover to run the whole place unless
you also have a use for the heat produced, as in your own little
Cogeneration Plant. You send the radiator and exhaust heat off to
radiators to warm the plant, or to a adsorption chiller unit to make
cold to cool it.

The other factor that would make it a great idea is the location - If
you are way out in the boonies and have a tiny power line just enough
to run a house, and it'll run you $100,000+ to beef up the utility
feed to run your little factory. Or no power at all, and they want
$250,000 to run 25 miles of poles and wires.

If it wasn't for the extra costs of the engine systems purchase,
maintenance and repairs, and the fuel and supplies delivery costs, you
might actually come out ahead buying Red Dye Off-road Diesel (no road
taxes - the dye keeps people honest) versus buying utility power at
full urban area rates.

Remember, the utility burns fuel to make power - then they lose half
of it to conversion and resistive losses and inefficiencies getting it
from the power plants to you. (Even when they make it with Hydro or
other alternate sources, they still have transmission costs and
losses) You burn fuel and make the power locally, and that cuts out
all the transmission losses.

At best, it would be a very slight financial gain long term - then
your big engine throws a rod and the crankcase and the crankshaft are
both toast and you have to start over fresh...

(Diesel Option Not Available in dense urban areas with Smog laws -
around here, the South Coast Air Quality Management District would
have kittens if you even proposed it. They have strict limits on
emissions - the Phone Company has to keep detailed logs on their
testing and run hours on their backup generators, and huge fines can
be levied for going over the permit limits.)

You can use Natural Gas for that, if you have a pipeline available.
Caterpillar has several engine families that are Dual Fuel Diesel and
NG. Suddenly your fuel costs just got a lot lower.

-- Bruce --

On Oct 21, 6:10*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
With that much need for HP, is it practical to get a diesel
powered engine unit, and feed it home heating oil as fuel
source? After all, it's not a road vehicle, and isn't
subject to over the road fuel taxes. Might work out cheaper
than running multiple aught electrical wire, and feeding the
electric bill.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Steve W." wrote in message

...

Yup, you're looking at a 250-300 HP screw compressor.

Quincy QSI 1000
Ingersol Rand SSR3000

Or newer unit of the same style. We had the SSR3000 in the
old shop.
NOISY SOB in a small space.

--
Steve W.

Amish do it all the time, have some religious/philisophical objection
to running equipment with electric motors/gas engines(electric
ignition). Saw an all hydraulic wood shop once that had a really big
diesel outside running a mongo pump. Don't know how the economics of
the setup were, but they were still in business and making furniture
last I knew.

Stan

On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:27:25 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Oct 21, 6:10*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
With that much need for HP, is it practical to get a diesel
powered engine unit, and feed it home heating oil as fuel
source? After all, it's not a road vehicle, and isn't
subject to over the road fuel taxes. Might work out cheaper
than running multiple aught electrical wire, and feeding the
electric bill.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Steve W." wrote in message

...

Yup, you're looking at a 250-300 HP screw compressor.

Quincy QSI 1000
Ingersol Rand SSR3000

Or newer unit of the same style. We had the SSR3000 in the
old shop.
NOISY SOB in a small space.

--
Steve W.

Amish do it all the time, have some religious/philisophical objection
to running equipment with electric motors/gas engines(electric
ignition). Saw an all hydraulic wood shop once that had a really big
diesel outside running a mongo pump. Don't know how the economics of
the setup were, but they were still in business and making furniture
last I knew.

The factory/store we bought our furniture had no issues with electric tools
but had to be self-sufficient. They weren't "allowed" to be connected to the
grid, so had a bank of Cummins diesel generators. This store had electric
lights but others in the area had gas lights.

On Oct 26, 12:33*pm, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)"
wrote:

You can use Natural Gas for that, if you have a pipeline available.
Caterpillar has several engine families that are Dual Fuel Diesel and
NG. *Suddenly your fuel costs just got a lot lower.

-- Bruce --

I'm curious about NG cogeneration. Say I was to build a 10k sqft
shop, radiant in the floors, well insulated. I could use NG for my
radiant boiler, hot water and air makeup easy-peazy. But now I'm
wondering about being off the grid, and maybe I can get a NG generator
so I can "send the radiator and exhaust heat off to
radiators to warm the plant, or to a adsorption chiller unit to make
cold to cool it." That sounds slick...and expensive. I live upstate
New York so def "need" both heat and AC. Somehow I'd want to be able
to fine tune humidity levels too. And what would I do when power
demand was low - do I need to run this generator 24/7/364? Would it
be cost effective to stay hooked to the grid and sell the power back
at these times? Or would I be better served by a smaller generator or
some sort of battery back-up? PV, maybe? Doubtful...CNY is cloudy
most of the time. Maybe I just stay hooked to the grid and run the
generator during business hours. Probably no possible way that that's
cost effective, even in the long run. Any good forums for this type
of discussion?
JP

On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 06:25:30 -0700 (PDT), JayPique
wrote:

On Oct 26, 12:33*pm, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)"
wrote:

You can use Natural Gas for that, if you have a pipeline available.
Caterpillar has several engine families that are Dual Fuel Diesel and
NG. *Suddenly your fuel costs just got a lot lower.

-- Bruce --

I'm curious about NG cogeneration. Say I was to build a 10k sqft
shop, radiant in the floors, well insulated. I could use NG for my
radiant boiler, hot water and air makeup easy-peazy. But now I'm
wondering about being off the grid, and maybe I can get a NG generator
so I can "send the radiator and exhaust heat off to
radiators to warm the plant, or to a adsorption chiller unit to make
cold to cool it." That sounds slick...and expensive. I live upstate
New York so def "need" both heat and AC. Somehow I'd want to be able
to fine tune humidity levels too. And what would I do when power
demand was low - do I need to run this generator 24/7/364? Would it
be cost effective to stay hooked to the grid and sell the power back
at these times? Or would I be better served by a smaller generator or
some sort of battery back-up? PV, maybe? Doubtful...CNY is cloudy
most of the time. Maybe I just stay hooked to the grid and run the
generator during business hours. Probably no possible way that that's
cost effective, even in the long run. Any good forums for this type
of discussion?
JP

I'd stay on the grid so you don't need to run it 24-7, but that's up
to the local utility - they allow you to use Solar and Wind to
back-feed excess power to the grid, I'm not sure if they'll let you do
it with a Home or Small Business Cogen, because that's not "Green"
energy. Silly rules, and you don't make them.

If they won't let you backfeed and sell them power, you just stop
using the Utility power when you run the Cogen and cover all your own
needs during high demand periods, and have Utility as a backup and for
the low demand overnights & weekends.

You don't keep an expensive engine running 24-7 when your local energy
demand is low, because it's not earning you all that much from the
Power Company. If it wasn't for the advantage of reuse of waste heat
for space heating or AC, it won't make sense.

Making cool from heat is fairly simple, look up adsorption chillers.
The only reason they are expensive is they aren't being mass produced,
start selling them by the thousands in a standardized style, and that
price would drop like a rock.

-- Bruce --

It is futile to compete with your utility company in efficiency. Stick
to your business and do not compete with your utility.

i

On 2011-10-29, JayPique wrote:
On Oct 26, 12:33?pm, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)"
wrote:

You can use Natural Gas for that, if you have a pipeline available.
Caterpillar has several engine families that are Dual Fuel Diesel and
NG. ?Suddenly your fuel costs just got a lot lower.

-- Bruce --

I'm curious about NG cogeneration. Say I was to build a 10k sqft
shop, radiant in the floors, well insulated. I could use NG for my
radiant boiler, hot water and air makeup easy-peazy. But now I'm
wondering about being off the grid, and maybe I can get a NG generator
so I can "send the radiator and exhaust heat off to
radiators to warm the plant, or to a adsorption chiller unit to make
cold to cool it." That sounds slick...and expensive. I live upstate
New York so def "need" both heat and AC. Somehow I'd want to be able
to fine tune humidity levels too. And what would I do when power
demand was low - do I need to run this generator 24/7/364? Would it
be cost effective to stay hooked to the grid and sell the power back
at these times? Or would I be better served by a smaller generator or
some sort of battery back-up? PV, maybe? Doubtful...CNY is cloudy
most of the time. Maybe I just stay hooked to the grid and run the
generator during business hours. Probably no possible way that that's
cost effective, even in the long run. Any good forums for this type
of discussion?
JP

I've heard Amish totally avoid going into debt. Which is
very wise way to live. The power co won't let them prepay,
so they buy generator instead.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

The factory/store we bought our furniture had no issues with
electric tools
but had to be self-sufficient. They weren't "allowed" to be
connected to the
grid, so had a bank of Cummins diesel generators. This
store had electric
lights but others in the area had gas lights.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 08:16:29 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I've heard Amish totally avoid going into debt. Which is
very wise way to live. The power co won't let them prepay,
so they buy generator instead.

That could be it but I thought it was the convenience/necessity thing. They
have calculators, take credit cards, and have a (business) web site, too.

It isn't "very smart" to spend (*lots*) more money to avoid going into "debt".
They could have automatic withdrawal from a bank account, too.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 08:16:29 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I've heard Amish totally avoid going into debt. Which is
very wise way to live. The power co won't let them prepay,
so they buy generator instead.

That could be it but I thought it was the convenience/necessity
thing. They have calculators, take credit cards, and have a
(business) web site, too.

It isn't "very smart" to spend (*lots*) more money to avoid going
into "debt". They could have automatic withdrawal from a bank
account, too.

I've always understood that the Amish do not connect to the power grid
because their interpretation of "Be not connected to the world..." included
connecting to the power grid. That of course, is a very loose
interpretation of the scripture they reference.

--

-Mike-

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 18:09:18 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 08:16:29 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I've heard Amish totally avoid going into debt. Which is
very wise way to live. The power co won't let them prepay,
so they buy generator instead.

That could be it but I thought it was the convenience/necessity
thing. They have calculators, take credit cards, and have a
(business) web site, too.

It isn't "very smart" to spend (*lots*) more money to avoid going
into "debt". They could have automatic withdrawal from a bank
account, too.

I've always understood that the Amish do not connect to the power grid
because their interpretation of "Be not connected to the world..." included
connecting to the power grid. That of course, is a very loose
interpretation of the scripture they reference.

It's something like that. I should have asked more questions when he was
giving us the cook's tour of the place. He was quite open about their
lifestyle and business. Of course he was selling us about $15k worth of
furniture. ;-)