Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )

Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
with the bulbs:

Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.

When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.

I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:


In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!


BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
actually get 80% of it.

I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
That's got to be better than the approach I was using.


For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )

Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2
categories of 5000K, T8 bulbs.

Thank you,
Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...

Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )

Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably better
at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home with the
bulbs:

Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.

When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.

I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:


In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me to
believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please advise me
whether I should return what I have and get a box of the Phillips bulbs.
Any other comments which will further my education about this are of
course welcome too!


BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to actually
get 80% of it.

I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
That's got to be better than the approach I was using.


For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and washed
at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering to the
suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it" principle).
About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on leaving my poor wife
to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a 10% sale at Lowes last
week, and got an additional 5% for getting a Lowes CC, so I bit the
bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and wire you can get for the
price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem to take pride in pointing
out..they don't wash dishes! ; )

Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2 categories
of 5000K, T8 bulbs.

Thank you,
Bill


Go for lumens. The color temperature may be "pleasing" (whiter, etc) but
the lumens is a measure of the light output.
The more the better in a shop environment.

Max

"Bill" wrote in Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens,
CRI-90.

When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.

I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:


In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!


I seriously doubt that the difference in Lumens is anywhere near the
difference as the specs would make you believe.

The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt you
could tell the difference looking at them side by side.

You know how Sears power tools and such say they are 5 HP and use 110V and
draw 13 amps, while other tools are 2 HP at the same voltage and amps? It
is all in how you measure it.

You want to get some really big time light? Go with an 8 foot high output
fixture. Wow!

-- Jim in NC

In article , says...

Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )

Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
with the bulbs:

Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.

When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.

I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:


In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!


BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
actually get 80% of it.

I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
That's got to be better than the approach I was using.


For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )

Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2
categories of 5000K, T8 bulbs.

Looking at their web site, the Sylvanias you have seem to be some kind
of special purpose bulb, however I couldn't tell much more--their web
site is a model of worthlessness. They do have others that have
illumination levels more in line with the Phillips. I'd take them
back.

In article , says...

"Bill" wrote in Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens,
CRI-90.

When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.

I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:


In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!


I seriously doubt that the difference in Lumens is anywhere near the
difference as the specs would make you believe.

The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt you
could tell the difference looking at them side by side.

You might be surprised. Brightness in fluorescent lamps comes from
phosphor chemistry as well as wattage. The particular lamps that he has
seem to have compromised efficiency to gain a 90 CRI. The same company
makes 5000K F32T8 lamps with a 2700 lumen output and an 85 CRI.

You know how Sears power tools and such say they are 5 HP and use 110V and
draw 13 amps, while other tools are 2 HP at the same voltage and amps? It
is all in how you measure it.

However the same company measuring the same way has bulbs that have
specifications almost identical to the Phillips he's looking at. It's
not "Sears vs Ingersoll-Rand" or whatever, it's more like an induction
motor vs a universal motor.

You want to get some really big time light? Go with an 8 foot high output
fixture. Wow!

-- Jim in NC

J. Clarke wrote:

Sorry if I've distracted you, my main concern is about those 2
categories of 5000K, T8 bulbs.

Looking at their web site, the Sylvanias you have seem to be some kind
of special purpose bulb, however I couldn't tell much more--their web
site is a model of worthlessness. They do have others that have
illumination levels more in line with the Phillips.

Yes, but not inventoried at Home Depot or Menards.

I'd take them back.

Yep! Will do!

Thanks,
Bill

On Tue, 10 May 2011 20:48:45 -0400, Bill wrote:


Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )

Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
with the bulbs:

Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.

When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.

I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:


In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!

I have trouble believing that the higher-lumen bulbs have a worse CRI.
And the CRI differing that much for the same 5000k rating is odd.

I'd opt for the brighter bulbs, Bill. And I'd get the box of 25.
They're invariably -considerably- less expensive that way, like a buck
or two cheaper each.


BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
actually get 80% of it.

Especially after they get wood dust all over 'em. Efficiency report:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fluor_lamps.pdf


I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
That's got to be better than the approach I was using.

A.R. Bill Rides Again! snort


For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )

I suppose you then said "Well get in there and do them, woman. I'm
going to the Borg to buy lamps & fixtures." titter

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

Larry Jaques wrote:
snip

BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
actually get 80% of it.

Especially after they get wood dust all over 'em. Efficiency report:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fluor_lamps.pdf

Hey, that was pretty interesting!



I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
That's got to be better than the approach I was using.

A.R. Bill Rides Again!snort

You write that as if attention to detail is a bad thing...



For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )

I suppose you then said "Well get in there and do them, woman. I'm
going to the Borg to buy lamps& fixtures."titter

Naw..I'm a little more discreet about my shopping than that. But if
conversation should turn in that direction, I'll be ready with: "That
dang dishwasher cost ne'r twice as much as all of my light fixtures
combined!" (there's no need to confuse matters with the box of bulbs or
the spools of wire...)

By the way, what Mike M. termed the "DP Baseboard of my dreams" this
past winter may finally be constructed in the next few days. The weather
and a few other matters held me off-track until now. I might start
sooner, but I've got to go bulb shopping again tomorrow... I hope
someone here is amused by my humble attempts at humor... The "Mrs."
doesn't think I have a good sense of humor...beyond that, opinions vary
widely... lol ; )

Bill


BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:

These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"

Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.





--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

IMHO I think a big factor in deciding between 3000k (warm) and 5000k
(cool) or even 6500k (daylight) bulbs is the following...

Where will the stuff you're making be seen?

If you're making indoor furniture, stick with warm bulbs, because most
people use warm bulbs in their houses.

If you're making outdoor stuff, go with cool or daylight bulbs.

For office furniture, stick with warm-cool (flourescent). Etc.

The idea is, you'll be seeing the finish in your shop, the same color as
the customer will be seeing it when they bring it home.

On Wed, 11 May 2011 02:12:52 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
snip

BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
actually get 80% of it.

Especially after they get wood dust all over 'em. Efficiency report:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fluor_lamps.pdf

Hey, that was pretty interesting!

Yeah, but take it with a grain of salt. It was, you see, a gov't pub.


I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
That's got to be better than the approach I was using.

A.R. Bill Rides Again!snort

You write that as if attention to detail is a bad thing...

Nah, not bad. Just humorous to others.


For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )

I suppose you then said "Well get in there and do them, woman. I'm
going to the Borg to buy lamps& fixtures."titter

Naw..I'm a little more discreet about my shopping than that. But if
conversation should turn in that direction, I'll be ready with: "That
dang dishwasher cost ne'r twice as much as all of my light fixtures
combined!" (there's no need to confuse matters with the box of bulbs or
the spools of wire...)

Smart man.


By the way, what Mike M. termed the "DP Baseboard of my dreams" this
past winter may finally be constructed in the next few days. The weather

Don't be surprised if you get as much flak as I did with my bow saur
project in the last century. Har!


and a few other matters held me off-track until now. I might start
sooner, but I've got to go bulb shopping again tomorrow... I hope
someone here is amused by my humble attempts at humor... The "Mrs."
doesn't think I have a good sense of humor...beyond that, opinions vary
widely... lol ; )

You have...?, er, never mind. giggle


BTW, here's a good example of a "bad joke" I read the other day:

These two muffins were in the oven. One muffin said, "Gosh, it's hot in
here!" The other muffin went "Eeeek!!!, A talking muffin!"

Dont' tell anyone you heard it from me--I'll deny it.

I don't doubt that.

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

I really like the 6500 K fluorescent tubes for working, whether shop or
kitchen. I do **NOT** like the 6500K CFL bulbs though. I find them harsh and
too cold for anything. The long tubes are better suited anywhere in that
temp colour but not the CFLs???

ON a side note We have many pot lights in home and many have 6500K CFLs in
them. The light is a nice colour but we constantly come home at nights to
find them on around the house. If you have any daylight coming in windows
you don't notice when the bulbs are on upon leaving. The colour matched the
window light so well it isn't noticed until dark outside.

The 5000K CFLs look about the same except appear to have a reddish tinge to
them and a little less briliiance.

The 2700K - 3000K are needed for TV watching and bedroom usage. The 2700K
are a bit too yellowish for me and it feels too dark with them. More
"wattage" is required.


"DJ Delorie" wrote in message ...


IMHO I think a big factor in deciding between 3000k (warm) and 5000k
(cool) or even 6500k (daylight) bulbs is the following...

Where will the stuff you're making be seen?

If you're making indoor furniture, stick with warm bulbs, because most
people use warm bulbs in their houses.

If you're making outdoor stuff, go with cool or daylight bulbs.

For office furniture, stick with warm-cool (flourescent). Etc.

The idea is, you'll be seeing the finish in your shop, the same color as
the customer will be seeing it when they bring it home.

On Wed, 11 May 2011 00:57:29 -0400, Bill wrote:

My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by

Let's see, 22 x 2,700 lumens = 59,400 lumens. That's the equivalent of
almost SEVENTY ONE 60W bulbs. Now do you see why that's absolute
overkill to the Nth degree? I still think that you'd have plenty of
light with 4 fixtures in addition to the two which are already up
there, and adding spot illumination where necessary.

Power used by 11 fixtures (bulbs + ballasts) would be about a
horsepower and a half, 1100W all the time you're in the shop.
Even fluor can get expensive to run if there's too much of it.


25' space, on 3 switches. One switch would have just two fixtures over
my workbench/table (I think of that as "mood lighting", sort of
comparable to light over a pool table) and the other 9 would be divided
among the other 2 switches. I will do some actual experiments in the
immediate future to help me decide whether this many bulbs produces more
light than I want or not.

You'll need an arc welding helmet to walk in that Lew-Approved(tmLJ)
room. Time for cataract surgery so you can see again, guys.


The way I am planning to do the wiring (EMT/THHN) offers considerable
latitude in reassigning lights to switches. For my 3 hot wires A, B, C
I'll have an A-B row, and two B-C rows. Thus I'll be running just 4
wires, 2 hots, White and Ground along each of my three rows of fixtures.
My uncle explained to me why he didn't think I should use the metal
conduit as a ground (even though it may be allowable).

Not only is it illegal in most places, it's a safety hazard. If you
lost your neutral (white wire), you'd have current (plus the resultant
resistances) in iffy connections, which could be a fire hazard.

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

Sorry, I was trying to give you a helping hand hoping you may learn in the
right direction.

Since you still demonstrate ignorance , of this difference, in bulb
construction, I will leave you with it.


-----------
"Leon" wrote in message
...
Perhaps you should do the research yourself, I have and am happy with the
results

We certainly do not know how much light is being reflected off the walls and
objects in the room so the Lux measurement is a moot point. Since we are
comparing what we do know, lumens and watts, that is the only measurement
that one can use in determining how much light to expect from a particular
lamp.

----------------
"Josepi" wrote in message ...

Learn the difference between "Lumens" and "Lux" and your understanding of
these matters will likely be better.

Lux tells the tale. Lumens are only part of the formulae in lighting.

Some smaller wattage bulbs put out higher Lux than others in the same
technology. There is a reason for that but since you are "happy with the
results" what are you asking here?

-------------
"Leon" wrote in message
news No, lumens tell the tale. A 23W CFL bulb is both brighter and nicer
than a yellow old incan 100W bulb.

-----------
The wattage is what tells the tale. Both are the same wattage. I doubt
you
could tell the difference looking at them side by side.

On May 11, 9:27*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Wed, 11 May 2011 00:57:29 -0400, Bill wrote:
My "maximal plan" would have 22 T8 bulbs (11 4' fixtures), in my 20' by

Let's see, 22 x 2,700 lumens = 59,400 lumens. That's the equivalent of
almost SEVENTY ONE 60W bulbs. *Now do you see why that's absolute
overkill to the Nth degree? *I still think that you'd have plenty of
light with 4 fixtures in addition to the two which are already up
there, and adding spot illumination where necessary.

Power used by 11 fixtures (bulbs + ballasts) would be about a
horsepower and a half, 1100W all the time you're in the shop.
Even fluor can get expensive to run if there's too much of it.

25' space,

20' x 25' is roughly 6 meters by 8 meters. 47 square meters. Divide
59,400 lumens by 47 square meters and you get 1254 lux. Which fits in
very well with the following chart.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/li...oms-d_708.html

Normal Drawing Work, Detailed Mechanical Workshops, Operation
Theatres 1,000 lux
Detailed Drawing Work, Very Detailed Mechanical Works 1500 - 2000 lux

I'd say woodworking fits into the detailed mechanical work format.
1254 lux is bright but none too bright. You would still need task
lighting for dovetail work.











on 3 switches. One switch would have just two fixtures over
my workbench/table (I think of that as "mood lighting", sort of
comparable to light over a pool table) and the other 9 would be divided
among the other 2 switches. I will do some actual experiments in the
immediate future to help me decide whether this many bulbs produces more
light than I want or not.

You'll need an arc welding helmet to walk in that Lew-Approved(tmLJ)
room. Time for cataract surgery so you can see again, guys.

The way I am planning to do the wiring (EMT/THHN) offers considerable
latitude in reassigning lights to switches. *For my 3 hot wires A, B, C
I'll have an A-B row, and two B-C rows. Thus I'll be running just 4
wires, 2 hots, White and Ground along each of my three rows of fixtures.
*My uncle explained to me why he didn't think I should use the metal
conduit as a ground (even though it may be allowable).

Not only is it illegal in most places, it's a safety hazard. If you
lost your neutral (white wire), you'd have current (plus the resultant
resistances) in iffy connections, which could be a fire hazard.

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
* * * * * * * * * * -- George Herbert

On May 10, 8:48*pm, Bill wrote:


Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90. Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85.

Looks as if Lumens per watt would be the deciding factor - unless the
price of the bulbs varied significantly. But you could determine
Lumens Per Dollar Per Watt, no?

You could buy the 25 bulbs from HD, take two out and compare the
brightness and, if not much better than the others, slip them back in
the box and return the whole thing - just don't break any in the
process!

Larry Jaques wrote:

By the way, what Mike M. termed the "DP Baseboard of my dreams" this
past winter may finally be constructed in the next few days.

Don't be surprised if you get as much flak as I did with my bow saur
project in the last century. Har!

Larry,

The reputation of your bow saur is renown (had to consult my the-saurus
there...)! Have you published a magazine article about it, or a photo
or video somewhere?

Bill

Leon wrote:

I simply tied into the existing light boxes in the attic, they had extra
terminals for that purpose.

That's a pretty good idea. It's one that was evidently well-exploited
before I arrived on the scene and it helps gives me a historical
perspective. I will keep the lesson in mind for my future use!

Thanks,
Bill

wrote:

20' x 25' is roughly 6 meters by 8 meters. 47 square meters. Divide
59,400 lumens by 47 square meters and you get 1254 lux. Which fits in
very well with the following chart.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/li...oms-d_708.html


Thanks for calculating and posting the link above. It gives a very
helpful perspective!

Bill

dadiOH wrote:
Bill wrote:
Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care
to be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )

Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came
home with the bulbs:

Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.

When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K,
2850 Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25
(only), which is why I passed them up while I was there.

I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:


In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!


Facts& Opinion

There are two bad lighting conditions in any workspace: under lighted and
over lighted; one is as bad as the other IME.

The Kelvin rating of the bulbs is relatively unimportant as all fluorescent
bulbs are deficient in red; 5000K is fine.

For general illumination in a shop you want about 70 footcandles per ft.sq.;
for task lighting, around 100-150.

Lumens and footcandles are measuring two different things; however, for your
purpose, you can consider them to be 1:1.


The intensity of light varies inversely to the square of the distance.
__________________

Procedure

1. Add up the total potential lumens from all bulbs

2. Divide the total by the area of your shop. You now have the maximum
light AT ONE FOOT FROM THE BULBS

3. Apply the inverse square law to determine light at work surface height.
a. at two feet from bulb, light will be 1/2...at 4', 1/4...etc.



Let's see:
(1) 2700 lumens x 22 bulbs = 59,400 lumens
(2) 59,400 lumesn/500 ft^2 = 118.8 lumes/ft^2.
(3) If my lights are at 8 ft and I work at 4 ft, then I'm supposed to
divide the 118.8 by 4 (or 16, I think--Pi are square), giving 29.7 or
7.425 lumens.

I think it makes more sense to perform the calculations "locally" (in
the areas where it matters) and I may do so. But, for the sake of
discussion, I assume the 118 figure the one to use in your general
guidelines below?

For general illumination in a shop you want about 70 footcandles per
ft.sq.; for task lighting, around 100-150.

Perhaps you can help me resolve and/or interpret my calculation in (3)?

Thanks!
Bill

"Josepi" wrote in message ...

Sorry, I was trying to give you a helping hand hoping you may learn in the
right direction.

Since you still demonstrate ignorance , of this difference, in bulb
construction, I will leave you with it.


Jeez, I am probably one of the few left that has not yet plonked you. And
then you BS me with non experience as opposed to my experience.

I certainly hope you have nothing that might benefit me in the future as
I'll never see it.

"Leon" wrote

Jeez, I am probably one of the few left that has not yet plonked you.
And then you BS me with non experience as opposed to my experience.

I certainly hope you have nothing that might benefit me in the future as
I'll never see it.


He changes his email addy from time to time. So killfiling this troll is a
constant exercise. He was gone for awhile, then he came back. Like a bad
smell, he is hard to get rid of.

On May 11, 5:41*pm, "Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast
dot net wrote:
"Leon" *wrote

Jeez, *I am probably one of the few left that has not yet plonked you..
And then you BS me with non experience as opposed to my experience.

I certainly hope you have nothing that might benefit me in the future as
I'll never see it.

He changes his email addy from time to time. *So killfiling this troll is a
constant exercise. *He was gone for awhile, then he came back. *Like a bad
smell, he is hard to get rid of.

He's a ****ing idiot. Has no clue about anything, lies like a rug and
is dangerous with his bad advice to boot.

Don't forget color.

A yellow color is like the sun and is much brighter than the same
in cool or other whites.

Martin

On 5/11/2011 12:14 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2011 20:48:45 -0400, wrote:


Probably all of the regular readers hear are as familiar as they care to
be with my "shop lighting" plans. So I won't belabor them again.
Earlier, I was advised here to seek out "5000K" T8 bulbs. Reviewing my
notes, I saw I wrote that down a few times! : )

Today I headed out into to cruel, understocked world, to pick up a
few items to begin my lighting experiments. Prices were noticeably
better at the BORGs than online. Along with a few fixtures I came home
with the bulbs:

Sylvania ("Spectre Maximal"), T8, 32w, 5000K, 1800 Lumens, CRI-90.

When I got home I noticed that Phillips has a bulb: T8, 32w, 5000K, 2850
Lumens, CRI-85. I believe Home Depot had those in boxes of 25 (only),
which is why I passed them up while I was there.

I came home with a few of the first sort from Menards. It's the
difference in "Lumens output" which has me concerned:


In Sylvania's catalog, their bulbs above (1800 Lumens output) were
suggested for "display, signage and backlighting". This is leading me
to believe that they may be inappropriate. ***Agree???*** Please
advise me whether I should return what I have and get a box of the
Phillips bulbs. Any other comments which will further my education
about this are of course welcome too!

I have trouble believing that the higher-lumen bulbs have a worse CRI.
And the CRI differing that much for the same 5000k rating is odd.

I'd opt for the brighter bulbs, Bill. And I'd get the box of 25.
They're invariably -considerably- less expensive that way, like a buck
or two cheaper each.


BTW, In Sylvania's cataglog, it says that 850 Lumens ~ 60 Watt
incandescent bulb. I'm not sure if multiples of this relation are
meaningful (probably not). BTW2, I did notice that the Lumens Output
listed is a "nominal measurement" (ha) --one may be doing well to
actually get 80% of it.

Especially after they get wood dust all over 'em. Efficiency report:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/fluor_lamps.pdf


I finally got a big binder last night to hold my plans and designs in.
That's got to be better than the approach I was using.

A.R. Bill Rides Again!snort


For those of you who remember my broken dishwasher: It washed and
washed at 100 decibels or more for the past few months (I was adhering
to the suggested "if it's not *really* broke, then don't fix it"
principle). About a week ago it tripped the GFCI switch it was on
leaving my poor wife to bail the dishwasher out by hand. I noticed a
10% sale at Lowes last week, and got an additional 5% for getting a
Lowes CC, so I bit the bullet. I pondered how many light fixtures and
wire you can get for the price of a new dishwasher, but as my wife seem
to take pride in pointing out..they don't wash dishes! ; )

I suppose you then said "Well get in there and do them, woman. I'm
going to the Borg to buy lamps& fixtures."titter

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

On Wed, 11 May 2011 09:44:07 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/li...oms-d_708.html

Normal Drawing Work, Detailed Mechanical Workshops, Operation
Theatres 1,000 lux

Like the 500W halogen spotlight over dental chairs and ER tables?
Right. We need that kind of light to cut wood. g


Detailed Drawing Work, Very Detailed Mechanical Works 1500 - 2000 lux

I'd say woodworking fits into the detailed mechanical work format.
1254 lux is bright but none too bright. You would still need task
lighting for dovetail work.

I wouldn't. And I would truly want to wear sunglasses in that shop.

We all have different requirements, don't we?

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

On Wed, 11 May 2011 16:34:39 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

By the way, what Mike M. termed the "DP Baseboard of my dreams" this
past winter may finally be constructed in the next few days.

Don't be surprised if you get as much flak as I did with my bow saur
project in the last century. Har!

Larry,

The reputation of your bow saur is renown (had to consult my the-saurus
there...)! Have you published a magazine article about it, or a photo
or video somewhere?

Nah. It lives in infamy in Wreck memories everywhere(?), as well as
Google's lobotomized DejaVu history files.

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

On Wed, 11 May 2011 16:19:28 -0500, "Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

"Josepi" wrote in message ...

Sorry, I was trying to give you a helping hand hoping you may learn in the
right direction.

Since you still demonstrate ignorance , of this difference, in bulb
construction, I will leave you with it.


Jeez, I am probably one of the few left that has not yet plonked you. And
then you BS me with non experience as opposed to my experience.

I certainly hope you have nothing that might benefit me in the future as
I'll never see it.

Let's see: 1 possible gem vs. 10,000 certain bull****s, offenses,
lies, trolls, and twists? That's -not- a hard decision.

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

What I did over my wood lathe and metal lathe - create a wood box
and put a bright headlight into it. Then Slave a 12V a.c. transformer
to them and turn on the light. Nice spot on the work area.

Lasts a long time - designed for it. Bright. Replaceable.
Easy.

Martin

On 5/11/2011 8:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 11 May 2011 09:44:07 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/li...oms-d_708.html

Normal Drawing Work, Detailed Mechanical Workshops, Operation
Theatres 1,000 lux

Like the 500W halogen spotlight over dental chairs and ER tables?
Right. We need that kind of light to cut wood.g


Detailed Drawing Work, Very Detailed Mechanical Works 1500 - 2000 lux

I'd say woodworking fits into the detailed mechanical work format.
1254 lux is bright but none too bright. You would still need task
lighting for dovetail work.

I wouldn't. And I would truly want to wear sunglasses in that shop.

We all have different requirements, don't we?

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

Well, now I have 3 fixtures and new bulbs like Leon has, I think (GE,
32w, 5000K, 2800 Lumens). So I'm going to assemble one of the biggest
sawhorsies you ever saw, using "old-style sawhorse hinges and
full-length tubafours spanned by an 8' tubafour. We (I) will find out,
whether 3 fixtures in the span of 8 feet produces "too much" light or
not!!! : ) Better to find out now, than after the fixtures are screwed
down. Larry recommended an experiment of this sort back when there was
snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...

In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
(*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect
eye-balling it will give me decent results. I thought to put the 3
fixtures across the middle of the ceiling first, and then put 3 more on
each side of them (making a 3 by 3 grid). Larry will probably say I've
over-thought it, but I think my approach will produce better results
than if I just worked from one row to the next.

It seemed to go from 50 degrees to 85 degree very quickly in my locale
(IN). Plenty warm enough for joint compound to set now! : )

The remarkable phenomenon to me, that I've already experienced a few
times in the last few days, and I sort of forgot about since last
summer, is how once I get started on the work--say even by just moving
stuff around, something else kicks in and takes over and it doesn't seem
as much like work.

I was thinking about this while driving today. Surely influenced by my
recent reading of the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (Matthew Crawford).
The phenomenon may have something to do with the personal process of
changing physical stuff. Jokingly I thought (yeah, I tell jokes to
myself...), even if you miss the nail and hit your finger with the
hammer, it may be more satisfying than if you never had a chance to
swing the hammer. In earlier years, I earned several blood
blisters...lol..none lately. Surely, I just cursed myself... : )

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message ...

Well, now I have 3 fixtures and new bulbs like Leon has, I think (GE,
32w, 5000K, 2800 Lumens). So I'm going to assemble one of the biggest
sawhorsies you ever saw, using "old-style sawhorse hinges and
full-length tubafours spanned by an 8' tubafour. We (I) will find out,
whether 3 fixtures in the span of 8 feet produces "too much" light or
not!!! : ) Better to find out now, than after the fixtures are screwed
down. Larry recommended an experiment of this sort back when there was
snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...

How about screwing in a simple eye-bolt or hook and
attach the fixture's with some string hanging from the hook, to see how they
are going to work.



In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
(*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect
eye-balling it will give me decent results. I thought to put the 3
fixtures across the middle of the ceiling first, and then put 3 more on
each side of them (making a 3 by 3 grid). Larry will probably say I've
over-thought it, but I think my approach will produce better results
than if I just worked from one row to the next.

I simply looked at which direction the ceiling
joists ran and used a stack of rare earth magnets to locate them. I
measured from the wall to insure that the fixtures were parallel to a wall.



It seemed to go from 50 degrees to 85 degree very quickly in my locale
(IN). Plenty warm enough for joint compound to set now! : )

Oh keep in mind that these lamps will take a
short period of time to come up to full brightness in cool weather.

The remarkable phenomenon to me, that I've already experienced a few
times in the last few days, and I sort of forgot about since last
summer, is how once I get started on the work--say even by just moving
stuff around, something else kicks in and takes over and it doesn't seem
as much like work.

I was thinking about this while driving today. Surely influenced by my
recent reading of the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (Matthew Crawford).
The phenomenon may have something to do with the personal process of
changing physical stuff. Jokingly I thought (yeah, I tell jokes to
myself...), even if you miss the nail and hit your finger with the
hammer, it may be more satisfying than if you never had a chance to
swing the hammer. In earlier years, I earned several blood
blisters...lol..none lately. Surely, I just cursed myself... : )

Bill

On Thu, 12 May 2011 00:12:52 -0400, Bill wrote:

Well, now I have 3 fixtures and new bulbs like Leon has, I think (GE,
32w, 5000K, 2800 Lumens). So I'm going to assemble one of the biggest
sawhorsies you ever saw, using "old-style sawhorse hinges and
full-length tubafours spanned by an 8' tubafour. We (I) will find out,
whether 3 fixtures in the span of 8 feet produces "too much" light or
not!!! : ) Better to find out now, than after the fixtures are screwed
down. Larry recommended an experiment of this sort back when there was
snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...

HUH? The last "roof" I did was the PT and steel roofing over my 8x12'
patio.


In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
(*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect

If she didn't get you a Straitline Intersect (or equiv) have her go do
the right thing. If you want to shoot perpendicular lines, you need a
2-line laser. http://goo.gl/DDsI2 or 5-line? http://goo.gl/Bsdox
The Bill, a 42-line laser, is in the works. Patience, please.


eye-balling it will give me decent results. I thought to put the 3
fixtures across the middle of the ceiling first, and then put 3 more on
each side of them (making a 3 by 3 grid). Larry will probably say I've
over-thought it, but I think my approach will produce better results
than if I just worked from one row to the next.

If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy.
But he does nice work.


It seemed to go from 50 degrees to 85 degree very quickly in my locale
(IN). Plenty warm enough for joint compound to set now! : )

The remarkable phenomenon to me, that I've already experienced a few
times in the last few days, and I sort of forgot about since last
summer, is how once I get started on the work--say even by just moving
stuff around, something else kicks in and takes over and it doesn't seem
as much like work.

That's called "focus". It's what's called A Good Thing(tm).


I was thinking about this while driving today. Surely influenced by my
recent reading of the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (Matthew Crawford).
The phenomenon may have something to do with the personal process of
changing physical stuff. Jokingly I thought (yeah, I tell jokes to
myself...), even if you miss the nail and hit your finger with the
hammer, it may be more satisfying than if you never had a chance to
swing the hammer. In earlier years, I earned several blood
blisters...lol..none lately. Surely, I just cursed myself... : )

I'll have to start that again some day soon. You really have to pay
attention to him to "get it".

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

Larry Jaques wrote:


Larry recommended an experiment of that sort back when there was
snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...

HUH? The last "roof" I did was the PT and steel roofing over my 8x12'
patio.

Yep, that's the project I meant. Has that project been signed-off on yet?



In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
(*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect

If she didn't get you a Straitline Intersect (or equiv) have her go do
the right thing. If you want to shoot perpendicular lines, you need a
2-line laser. http://goo.gl/DDsI2 or 5-line? http://goo.gl/Bsdox


I think I'll have to get by with one laser and a framing square--or like
Leon said, measuring from a wall. I don't trust my walls as much as I do
a laser though. Unfortunately, my mom gave away my dad's transit (it
had no laser)..lol, I have his slide rule!


If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy.
But he does nice work.

LOL...Gosh, can I put you down as a reference? I believe from
indirectly-related experience that design and development is a
"circular" process (not that many contractors would probably care to
admit it). James Krenov probably used a spherical process! I'm
pleased that you are willing to give me credit for doing "nice work"
even though I haven't provided you with many samples. My neighbor, a
plumber, told me his reputation is on the line on every piece of work he
does. As one of my harshest critics, I think LH is even tougher!
Who ya gonna call? --the guy who just hammers it up there (he,
coincidentally, used to live where I do now), or the guys who shows you
a few SketchUp models first (Swingman and Leon)? : ) You may have heard
the analogy that begins, "Quality is like buying oats, if you want nice
clean, fresh oats...".


I'll have to start that [Shop Class as Soulcraft] again some day soon. You really have to pay
attention to him to "get it".

IMO, Those parts are the best parts of the book, in particular where he
has included thoughtful excerpts from the works of other scholars. I
thought some of the middle chapters contained an awful lot of "padding",
but I think the book began and ended strong. As an academic with such
strong credentials, I thought he should have known to cut, re-cut,
double-cut and edit again much of what he had written for the sake of a
better book. Unfortunately, he probably came under the pressure of
satisfying a publishers ideals (certain number of pages, etc). As
someone who has reviewed more than one book, IMO, I think I could have
helped make this one better. The publisher may have figured the
difference wouldn't sell any more copies... I guess that's part of
publication in the 21st century. By most measures, the book was darn
successful! You, or even I, could probably take the word "focus" from
your previous post, and embellish around it to a very insightful new
chapter, more interesting than some extant in the book!

Bill

On Fri, 13 May 2011 01:05:25 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:


Larry recommended an experiment of that sort back when there was
snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope
he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...

HUH? The last "roof" I did was the PT and steel roofing over my 8x12'
patio.

Yep, that's the project I meant. Has that project been signed-off on yet?

Oh, yeah, months ago. I had a couple days without rain and gat 'er
dun.


In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some
sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought
(*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined
up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to
stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go
along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect

If she didn't get you a Straitline Intersect (or equiv) have her go do
the right thing. If you want to shoot perpendicular lines, you need a
2-line laser. http://goo.gl/DDsI2 or 5-line? http://goo.gl/Bsdox


I think I'll have to get by with one laser and a framing square--or like
Leon said, measuring from a wall. I don't trust my walls as much as I do
a laser though. Unfortunately, my mom gave away my dad's transit (it
had no laser)..lol, I have his slide rule!

I want pictures if you decide to try the slipstick method. Color pics!


If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy.
But he does nice work.

LOL...Gosh, can I put you down as a reference? I believe from
indirectly-related experience that design and development is a
"circular" process (not that many contractors would probably care to
admit it). James Krenov probably used a spherical process! I'm
pleased that you are willing to give me credit for doing "nice work"
even though I haven't provided you with many samples. My neighbor, a

You're right. I take it back. snort


plumber, told me his reputation is on the line on every piece of work he
does. As one of my harshest critics, I think LH is even tougher!
Who ya gonna call? --the guy who just hammers it up there (he,
coincidentally, used to live where I do now), or the guys who shows you
a few SketchUp models first (Swingman and Leon)? : ) You may have heard
the analogy that begins, "Quality is like buying oats, if you want nice
clean, fresh oats...".

I first heard that in the mid '70s when I was a QA inspector.


I'll have to start that [Shop Class as Soulcraft] again some day soon. You really have to pay
attention to him to "get it".

IMO, Those parts are the best parts of the book, in particular where he

I got a dozen pages in and found my mind wandering so I put it back on
the shelf. When I'm done with W.E.B. Griffin's _The Corps_ tomes, I
may pick it back up. (I have 3.5 to go.)


has included thoughtful excerpts from the works of other scholars. I
thought some of the middle chapters contained an awful lot of "padding",
but I think the book began and ended strong. As an academic with such
strong credentials, I thought he should have known to cut, re-cut,
double-cut and edit again much of what he had written for the sake of a
better book. Unfortunately, he probably came under the pressure of
satisfying a publishers ideals (certain number of pages, etc). As
someone who has reviewed more than one book, IMO, I think I could have
helped make this one better. The publisher may have figured the
difference wouldn't sell any more copies... I guess that's part of
publication in the 21st century. By most measures, the book was darn
successful! You, or even I, could probably take the word "focus" from
your previous post, and embellish around it to a very insightful new
chapter, more interesting than some extant in the book!

I'll address that once I've read the book. Remind me, won't you?

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler

Larry Jaques wrote:

I got a dozen pages in and found my mind wandering so I put it back on
the shelf. When I'm done with W.E.B. Griffin's _The Corps_ tomes, I
may pick it back up. (I have 3.5 to go.)

Wow! Did you serve in the marines?

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy.

I wondered once what folks thought of me here. Now I have the answer,
and I could not have guessed. I'm glad you included "hammered", because
I am known for hammering things down real good so they don't get away! lol

On Fri, 13 May 2011 02:00:31 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

I got a dozen pages in and found my mind wandering so I put it back on
the shelf. When I'm done with W.E.B. Griffin's _The Corps_ tomes, I
may pick it back up. (I have 3.5 to go.)

Wow! Did you serve in the marines?

No, I lucked out of service in Vietnam by moving back from school in
AZ to home in CA. The CA draft board was full up when I got back. I
was an Air Force brat. Dad retired after his lifer term +6 was up.

But I got hooked on Griffin when a friend recommended the President's
Agent books. They were so good, I started the Corps series. I'll
probably continue on with the Badge of Honor series, too. Our library
has only the books on tape for the Brotherhood of War series. This guy
has written over forty books. I finished the entire Louis L'Amour set
a few months ago, along with some McMurtry and Elmer Kelton.

With no television to infect me, I get more projects done and read
lots of books for fun. I have an entire 3x7' bookshelf as an inbox for
gardening, DIY, sci-fi, western, military fiction, woodworking, and
metalworking books. Slowly but surely...

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler

On Fri, 13 May 2011 06:51:26 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back
and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least
'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and
belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy.

I wondered once what folks thought of me here. Now I have the answer,
and I could not have guessed. I'm glad you included "hammered", because
I am known for hammering things down real good so they don't get away! lol

We gotcher number, boy.

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler

"Larry Jaques" wrote

I finished the entire Louis L'Amour set
a few months ago, along with some McMurtry and Elmer Kelton.

Have you read any by Cormac McCarthy?

I've enjoyed them all.

Max

Larry Jaques wrote:

But I got hooked on Griffin when a friend recommended the President's
Agent books. They were so good, I started the Corps series. I'll
probably continue on with the Badge of Honor series, too. Our library
has only the books on tape for the Brotherhood of War series. This guy
has written over forty books. I finished the entire Louis L'Amour set
a few months ago, along with some McMurtry and Elmer Kelton.

That Griffin guy must write dern good!
Come on now, is military fiction really better than a "Rocky" movie?


With no television to infect me, I get more projects done and read
lots of books for fun. I have an entire 3x7' bookshelf as an inbox for
gardening, DIY, sci-fi, western, military fiction, woodworking, and
metalworking books. Slowly but surely...

I enjoy trying to keep up with my inbox too. Aren't you working on your
musicianship too? We have been discussing the idea of dropping Comcast
cable-tv service in our household (when our introductory "triple-play
discount" runs out soon). That doesn't mean that we'd be television-free
though. I just recently started exploring my options.
I could get by well-enough with MSNBC and PBS. Throw in a local network
for weather and JJ, and everyone is basically happy. I'll see if you
can guess what JJ stands for.

Bill


--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler