"DGDevin" wrote in message
the billions of dollars spent, the millions of people sent to prison, the
huge distortions of our laws all to combat street drugs can't actually do
what they are supposed to do, why are we still doing it, why didn't the
lesson of the failure of Prohibition sink in?

I only have one response to your idea that drugs, guns, whatever should be
legalized and controlled.

Right now we have a functioning, more or less civil society. And that's
despite the amount of people who are presently incarcerated and the money
spent on crime prevention. You have no idea whatsover what will happen to
society if we go the route of legalizing it all and taxing it or whatever.
You think you know, but that's just your opinion. There's the real
possibility is that it could lead to terrible repercussions. Nobody who
tries a habit forming drug wants to become an addict. Yet, there are new
addicts all the time. Pray tell, what will happen when those drugs become
legal and many more people try them out just for recreation.

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of some
developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it all. Until you
can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble conjecture and nothing
else. And no, I'm not the least bit interested in the society I live in
being the first to attempt it.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"DGDevin" wrote in message
the billions of dollars spent, the millions of people sent to prison, the
huge distortions of our laws all to combat street drugs can't actually do
what they are supposed to do, why are we still doing it, why didn't the
lesson of the failure of Prohibition sink in?

I only have one response to your idea that drugs, guns, whatever should be
legalized and controlled.

Right now we have a functioning, more or less civil society. And that's
despite the amount of people who are presently incarcerated and the money
spent on crime prevention. You have no idea whatsover what will happen to
society if we go the route of legalizing it all and taxing it or whatever.
You think you know, but that's just your opinion. There's the real
possibility is that it could lead to terrible repercussions. Nobody who
tries a habit forming drug wants to become an addict. Yet, there are new
addicts all the time. Pray tell, what will happen when those drugs become
legal and many more people try them out just for recreation.

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of some
developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it all. Until you
can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble conjecture and
nothing else. And no, I'm not the least bit interested in the society I
live in being the first to attempt it.


UK, and more so the Netherlands.

--
Ever wonder why doctors, dentists and lawyers have to Practice so much? Ever
wonder why you let them Practice on You?

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
UK, and more so the Netherlands.

Yes? Cocaine, amphetamines, methamphetamines, ecstasy, heroine? Are you
telling me they're all legal?

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
UK, and more so the Netherlands.

Yes? Cocaine, amphetamines, methamphetamines, ecstasy, heroine? Are you
telling me they're all legal?

At one point in time, all those were legal or at least some legal and some
decriminalized.

It was a failure. They were forced to put more restraints in place. I was
there, and saw people sitting around parks in plain view downtown, shooting
heroine between their toes. Filth everywhere, as were so many shady people,
all I wanted to know was how quickly I could get the family out of town.
--
Jim in NC

On 2/14/2011 11:17 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
the billions of dollars spent, the millions of people sent to prison, the
huge distortions of our laws all to combat street drugs can't actually do
what they are supposed to do, why are we still doing it, why didn't the
lesson of the failure of Prohibition sink in?

I only have one response to your idea that drugs, guns, whatever should be
legalized and controlled.

Right now we have a functioning, more or less civil society. And that's
despite the amount of people who are presently incarcerated and the money
spent on crime prevention. You have no idea whatsover what will happen to
society if we go the route of legalizing it all and taxing it or whatever.
You think you know, but that's just your opinion. There's the real
possibility is that it could lead to terrible repercussions. Nobody who
tries a habit forming drug wants to become an addict. Yet, there are new
addicts all the time. Pray tell, what will happen when those drugs become
legal and many more people try them out just for recreation.

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of some
developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it all. Until you
can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble conjecture and nothing
else. And no, I'm not the least bit interested in the society I live in
being the first to attempt it.


What about alcohol addiction? Caffeine addiction? Refined sugar
addiction? Tobacco addiction? (Completely legal) prescription drug
addiction?

In article ,
says...

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
UK, and more so the Netherlands.

Yes? Cocaine, amphetamines, methamphetamines, ecstasy, heroine? Are you
telling me they're all legal?

At one point in time, all those were legal or at least some legal and some
decriminalized.

It was a failure.

In what way was it a "failure"?

They were forced to put more restraints in place.

Forced in what way?

I was
there, and saw people sitting around parks in plain view downtown, shooting
heroine between their toes.

And this was worse than the current situation in which the drug dealers
shoot 9mm between people's eyes?

Filth everywhere,

And this had what to do with drugs?

as were so many shady people,

And of course there are now no shady people.

all I wanted to know was how quickly I could get the family out of town.

And the situation has been improved in what way?

The same sort of argument can be made about alcohol. And we know how
banning _that_ turned out.

The drug ban has created a huge criminal class, just as Prohibition did,
and has not reduced drug availability. It is an expensive failure. The
time to pull the plug and try a different approach is long, long past.

In article ,
says...

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
UK, and more so the Netherlands.

Yes? Cocaine, amphetamines, methamphetamines, ecstasy, heroine? Are you
telling me they're all legal?

At one point in time, all those were legal or at least some legal and some
decriminalized.

It was a failure. They were forced to put more restraints in place. I was
there, and saw people sitting around parks in plain view downtown, shooting
heroine between their toes. Filth everywhere, as were so many shady people,
all I wanted to know was how quickly I could get the family out of town.

If the ban on heroin fixed that you have to be more than 100 years old--
it was prohibited in the US in 1906 and that prohibition has never been
rescinded, although the penalties have been increased several times.

In article ,
says...

On 2/14/2011 11:17 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
the billions of dollars spent, the millions of people sent to prison, the
huge distortions of our laws all to combat street drugs can't actually do
what they are supposed to do, why are we still doing it, why didn't the
lesson of the failure of Prohibition sink in?

I only have one response to your idea that drugs, guns, whatever should be
legalized and controlled.

Right now we have a functioning, more or less civil society. And that's
despite the amount of people who are presently incarcerated and the money
spent on crime prevention. You have no idea whatsover what will happen to
society if we go the route of legalizing it all and taxing it or whatever.
You think you know, but that's just your opinion. There's the real
possibility is that it could lead to terrible repercussions. Nobody who
tries a habit forming drug wants to become an addict. Yet, there are new
addicts all the time. Pray tell, what will happen when those drugs become
legal and many more people try them out just for recreation.

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of some
developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it all. Until you
can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble conjecture and nothing
else. And no, I'm not the least bit interested in the society I live in
being the first to attempt it.


What about alcohol addiction? Caffeine addiction? Refined sugar
addiction? Tobacco addiction? (Completely legal) prescription drug
addiction?

Actually he's right, we don't know what will happen. But we don't know
what will happen with most social programs. Didn't stop us from
implementing them.

In the US drugs were completely legal prior to 1906. We had a
functioning, more or less civil society then. Why would we not have one
that is at least as well functioning and more or less civil now?

In article , "Upscale" wrote:

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of some
developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it all.

The Netherlands.

Until you
can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble conjecture and nothing
else. And no, I'm not the least bit interested in the society I live in
being the first to attempt it.

It wouldn't be.

(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article ,
"Upscale" wrote:

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of
some developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it all.

The Netherlands.

Until you
can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble conjecture and
nothing else. And no, I'm not the least bit interested in the society
I live in being the first to attempt it.

It wouldn't be.

In the Netherlands they are slowly (it's the Netherlands) coming back
from a too permissive attitude. Firstly, the sleaze is finally having a
backlash in Amsterdam and other bigger cities. Secondly, in cities near
the borders with especially Germany, there are too many less desirables
from outside Holland who come and misbehave. What and how they are
exactly going to accomplish this "pullback", I don't know, since I have
never cared for this type of recreation.

I think the only real legalization I would be for is if there is a way to
determine excessive usage by an individual. Something like being able to
buy only with a credit card tied to a person's identity. snicker.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Feb 15, 7:32*am, Han wrote:


I think the only real legalization I would be for is if there is a way to
determine excessive usage by an individual. *Something like being able to
buy only with a credit card tied to a person's identity. snicker.


I'm not disagreeing with your view on this, but the legalization will
bring the prices down and the dealers can't have that now can they?
I especially refer to the 'big' dealers, the ones with their own
fleets of aircraft, pockets full of politicians and lawmakers, law-
enforcement people and all things corruptible. All you have to do is
follow history's path of the drug/opium trades from the poppy fields
of Afghanistan to the port of the old Shanghai and the subsequent wars
that have been fought over this business.
Some speculate that covert funding of special ops comes from drug
sources. Just ask Karzai's brother.
That element will always find a source of income and if it isn't
drugs, 12-year old sex slaves will do.
You can't eliminate those who profit from people's weaknesses.

Aside from the collected taxes, governments have other reasons to
allow cigarettes to be sold. Smokers die younger so the social
security pay-out is less... actuarially calculated to be much less
that the short, painful medical condition that needs to be funded.
Think about it... what better way to control social security spending
than allowing the potential recipients to die younger?

And just because some people refuse to see the true ugliness that
surrounds us, doesn't make it less so.

J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 2/14/2011 11:17 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
the billions of dollars spent, the millions of people sent to
prison, the huge distortions of our laws all to combat street
drugs can't actually do what they are supposed to do, why are we
still doing it, why didn't the lesson of the failure of
Prohibition sink in?

I only have one response to your idea that drugs, guns, whatever
should be legalized and controlled.

Right now we have a functioning, more or less civil society. And
that's despite the amount of people who are presently incarcerated
and the money spent on crime prevention. You have no idea whatsover
what will happen to society if we go the route of legalizing it all
and taxing it or whatever. You think you know, but that's just your
opinion. There's the real possibility is that it could lead to
terrible repercussions. Nobody who tries a habit forming drug wants
to become an addict. Yet, there are new addicts all the time. Pray
tell, what will happen when those drugs become legal and many more
people try them out just for recreation.

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of
some developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it
all. Until you can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble
conjecture and nothing else. And no, I'm not the least bit
interested in the society I live in being the first to attempt it.


What about alcohol addiction? Caffeine addiction? Refined sugar
addiction? Tobacco addiction? (Completely legal) prescription drug
addiction?

Actually he's right, we don't know what will happen. But we don't
know what will happen with most social programs. Didn't stop us from
implementing them.

In the US drugs were completely legal prior to 1906. We had a
functioning, more or less civil society then. Why would we not have
one that is at least as well functioning and more or less civil now?

life, people, morals, and general ethics of society's lessened personal
responsiblity beliefs have changed to the detriment. in the general case, of
course.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 01:17:42 -0500, Upscale wrote:

Right now we have a functioning, more or less civil society. And that's
despite the amount of people who are presently incarcerated and the
money spent on crime prevention. You have no idea whatsover what will
happen to society if we go the route of legalizing it all and taxing it
or whatever. You think you know, but that's just your opinion.

Well, we know what happened when Prohibition came in, and it's the same
thing that's happening now with drugs. We also know that when
Prohibition was repealed the country did not fall apart as some claimed
it would. Why should we not expect the same result with drugs?

And, as has been pointed out, other countries have done it and not
collapsed.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
Well, we know what happened when Prohibition came in, and it's the same
thing that's happening now with drugs. We also know that when
Prohibition was repealed the country did not fall apart as some claimed
it would. Why should we not expect the same result with drugs?

And, as has been pointed out, other countries have done it and not
collapsed.

Other countries have not done it, not to the extent that you are suggesting.
And as far as some of the Scandinavian countries go, we seem to have
testimony from several former people who lived in those countries where it
was *was* legalized was that it was a failure. They couldn't wait to move
away.

Have you ever looked at statements from people living in the region of a
safe injection site? Almost without exception, they've lobbied against
having them in their area and land values have decreased in those areas.
It's patently obvious that honest, law abiding people do not want those drug
freedoms you propose and certainly do not want them where they live. Tell me
Larry, would you want to live a few doors away from such a facility, knowing
that your children had to pass by it every day on their way to and from
school? I sure as hell wouldn't and no one I know would.

In article ,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 2/14/2011 11:17 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
the billions of dollars spent, the millions of people sent to
prison, the huge distortions of our laws all to combat street
drugs can't actually do what they are supposed to do, why are we
still doing it, why didn't the lesson of the failure of
Prohibition sink in?

I only have one response to your idea that drugs, guns, whatever
should be legalized and controlled.

Right now we have a functioning, more or less civil society. And
that's despite the amount of people who are presently incarcerated
and the money spent on crime prevention. You have no idea whatsover
what will happen to society if we go the route of legalizing it all
and taxing it or whatever. You think you know, but that's just your
opinion. There's the real possibility is that it could lead to
terrible repercussions. Nobody who tries a habit forming drug wants
to become an addict. Yet, there are new addicts all the time. Pray
tell, what will happen when those drugs become legal and many more
people try them out just for recreation.

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of
some developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it
all. Until you can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble
conjecture and nothing else. And no, I'm not the least bit
interested in the society I live in being the first to attempt it.


What about alcohol addiction? Caffeine addiction? Refined sugar
addiction? Tobacco addiction? (Completely legal) prescription drug
addiction?

Actually he's right, we don't know what will happen. But we don't
know what will happen with most social programs. Didn't stop us from
implementing them.

In the US drugs were completely legal prior to 1906. We had a
functioning, more or less civil society then. Why would we not have
one that is at least as well functioning and more or less civil now?

life, people, morals, and general ethics of society's lessened personal
responsiblity beliefs have changed to the detriment. in the general case, of
course.

Could be. And it could be that unenforceable bans on this and that and
the other that create huge classes of outlaws and scofflaws is the
cause.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...


There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of some
developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it all. Until you
can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble conjecture and
nothing else. And no, I'm not the least bit interested in the society I
live in being the first to attempt it.

By that logic no law should be passed until another nation has tried it and
proved it works. Unfortunately that means such a law will never exist
because there will never be grounds for any nation to try, there will be no
precedent.

So despite the mountainous evidence that the War On Drugs has been a hugely
expensive failure, despite the millions of criminal convictions and the
distortion of our laws all in the name of suppressing drugs, we can't try
anything different because..., well just because. We haven't tried it,
therefore we shouldn't try it. Brilliant, really, circular logic that dooms
us to the same policies that have failed us for most of the past century.

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message ...

On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 01:17:42 -0500, Upscale wrote:

Right now we have a functioning, more or less civil society. And that's
despite the amount of people who are presently incarcerated and the
money spent on crime prevention. You have no idea whatsover what will
happen to society if we go the route of legalizing it all and taxing it
or whatever. You think you know, but that's just your opinion.

Well, we know what happened when Prohibition came in, and it's the same
thing that's happening now with drugs. We also know that when
Prohibition was repealed the country did not fall apart as some claimed
it would. Why should we not expect the same result with drugs?

Well said. We tried Prohibition, it was a massive failure and created a
whole new problem by enriching The Mob. So what did we do with drugs? We
repeated the same failure all over again. If we *wanted* to make street
drugs widely available we couldn't have done a much better job, they're
everywhere, and they support street gangs and drug cartels which have caused
more harm than addicts ever could.

We're beating our collective head against a brick wall, the wall is always
going to win, and yet there are people terrified of stopping. It is truly a
bizarre situation.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...


"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
Well, we know what happened when Prohibition came in, and it's the same
thing that's happening now with drugs. We also know that when
Prohibition was repealed the country did not fall apart as some claimed
it would. Why should we not expect the same result with drugs?

And, as has been pointed out, other countries have done it and not
collapsed.

Other countries have not done it, not to the extent that you are
suggesting.

Alcohol is the single most destructive drug in history. The nation didn't
miraculously benefit when booze was illegal, in some respects it got worse
(i.e. the rise of organized crime). And when booze became legal again, the
nation didn't descend into chaos. So in fact the experiment has been tried,
and we learned that prohibition doesn't work. If there was any doubt, we've
tried it again with other drugs and learned the same lesson--you can't shut
off the demand, so all illegality accomplishes is enriching the criminals
who will invariably meet that demand.

"DGDevin" wrote in message
So despite the mountainous evidence that the War On Drugs has been a
hugely expensive failure, despite the millions of criminal convictions and
the distortion of our laws all in the name of suppressing drugs, we can't
try anything different because..., well just because. We haven't tried
it, therefore we shouldn't try it.

Not really. You shouldn't try it out of common sense. Assuming that you're
an adult with experiences similar to most, common sense should tell you when
something is dangerous to try. What you're advocating, is extremely
dangerous to attempt and has the real possiblity of destroying society as we
know it today. With all the bad things that happen daily and my cynical view
of the human race in general, I believe our present society has a lot of
good, even great things going for it. I for one, am not willing to risk
destroying it just to 'try something new' like you propose.

Lobby Dosser wrote:

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of
some developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it all.
Until you can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble
conjecture and nothing else. And no, I'm not the least bit
interested in the society I live in being the first to attempt it.


UK, and more so the Netherlands.

In both cases, illicit use did not diminish. Both countries simply ended up
with more addicts.

In article ,
says...

Lobby Dosser wrote:

There hasn't been and you can't show me one successful instance of
some developed country doing what you propose and legalizing it all.
Until you can do that, whatever you have to say is just feeble
conjecture and nothing else. And no, I'm not the least bit
interested in the society I live in being the first to attempt it.


UK, and more so the Netherlands.

In both cases, illicit use did not diminish. Both countries simply ended up
with more addicts.

Neither legalized the sale of any drug other than by prescription.

And you are conflating illict _use_ with illicit _sales_. In the
Netherlands it is not unlawful to buy or use drugs, so for the most part
use is not illicit. What is illicit is _sales_.

J. Clarke wrote:

Neither legalized the sale of any drug other than by prescription.

And you are conflating illict _use_ with illicit _sales_. In the
Netherlands it is not unlawful to buy or use drugs, so for the most
part use is not illicit. What is illicit is _sales_.

EVERY drug illegal to possess in the US is also illegal to possess in the
Netherlands.

Common drugs considered contraband (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin, etc.) are
also contraband, i.e., illegal on their face, in The Netherlands.

In article ,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:

Neither legalized the sale of any drug other than by prescription.

And you are conflating illict _use_ with illicit _sales_. In the
Netherlands it is not unlawful to buy or use drugs, so for the most
part use is not illicit. What is illicit is _sales_.

EVERY drug illegal to possess in the US is also illegal to possess in the
Netherlands.

Common drugs considered contraband (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin, etc.) are
also contraband, i.e., illegal on their face, in The Netherlands.

You might want to check again. Oh, and see what's been going on in
Portugal while you're about it.

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
UK, and more so the Netherlands.

Yes? Cocaine, amphetamines, methamphetamines, ecstasy, heroine? Are you
telling me they're all legal?

At one point in time, all those were legal or at least some legal and some
decriminalized.

It was a failure. They were forced to put more restraints in place. I
was there, and saw people sitting around parks in plain view downtown,
shooting heroine between their toes. Filth everywhere, as were so many
shady people, all I wanted to know was how quickly I could get the family
out of town.
--
Jim in NC

Portland, Oregon 2011.

--
Ever wonder why doctors, dentists and lawyers have to Practice so much? Ever
wonder why you let them Practice on You?

J. Clarke wrote:

EVERY drug illegal to possess in the US is also illegal to possess
in the Netherlands.

Common drugs considered contraband (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin,
etc.) are also contraband, i.e., illegal on their face, in The
Netherlands.

You might want to check again. Oh, and see what's been going on in
Portugal while you're about it.

I checked before I posted. Visit the chart at:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/c...e/dolin1-e.htm

The Netherlands, Portugal, and the U.S. are signatories to the United
Nations Single Convention Treaty on drugs. The treaty provides that
signatories provide criminal penalties for the use, manufacture, sale,
transport, blah-blah-blah, listed drugs.

Inasmuch as our constitution says that "This constitution and treaties made
pursuant thereto shall be the supreme law of the land," we cannot make ANY
proscribed drug legal without abrogating the treaty. Same with the Dutch and
Portugese.

In article ,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:

EVERY drug illegal to possess in the US is also illegal to possess
in the Netherlands.

Common drugs considered contraband (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin,
etc.) are also contraband, i.e., illegal on their face, in The
Netherlands.

You might want to check again. Oh, and see what's been going on in
Portugal while you're about it.

I checked before I posted. Visit the chart at:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/c...e/dolin1-e.htm

The Netherlands, Portugal, and the U.S. are signatories to the United
Nations Single Convention Treaty on drugs. The treaty provides that
signatories provide criminal penalties for the use, manufacture, sale,
transport, blah-blah-blah, listed drugs.

Inasmuch as our constitution says that "This constitution and treaties made
pursuant thereto shall be the supreme law of the land," we cannot make ANY
proscribed drug legal without abrogating the treaty. Same with the Dutch and
Portugese.

Do some more research.

J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:

EVERY drug illegal to possess in the US is also illegal to possess
in the Netherlands.

Common drugs considered contraband (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin,
etc.) are also contraband, i.e., illegal on their face, in The
Netherlands.

You might want to check again. Oh, and see what's been going on in
Portugal while you're about it.

I checked before I posted. Visit the chart at:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/c...e/dolin1-e.htm

The Netherlands, Portugal, and the U.S. are signatories to the United
Nations Single Convention Treaty on drugs. The treaty provides that
signatories provide criminal penalties for the use, manufacture,
sale, transport, blah-blah-blah, listed drugs.

Inasmuch as our constitution says that "This constitution and
treaties made pursuant thereto shall be the supreme law of the
land," we cannot make ANY proscribed drug legal without abrogating
the treaty. Same with the Dutch and Portugese.

Do some more research.

You are the one who asserted that it is not illegal to buy or use drugs in
the Netherlands. I disputed that, sort of. I showed you that it is illegal
in The Netherlands to "possess" virtually all drugs. By buying or using
drugs, one is "possessing" them, therefore both of those conditions are
illegal.

It is now up to you to validate your claim.

In article ,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:

EVERY drug illegal to possess in the US is also illegal to possess
in the Netherlands.

Common drugs considered contraband (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin,
etc.) are also contraband, i.e., illegal on their face, in The
Netherlands.

You might want to check again. Oh, and see what's been going on in
Portugal while you're about it.

I checked before I posted. Visit the chart at:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/c...e/dolin1-e.htm

The Netherlands, Portugal, and the U.S. are signatories to the United
Nations Single Convention Treaty on drugs. The treaty provides that
signatories provide criminal penalties for the use, manufacture,
sale, transport, blah-blah-blah, listed drugs.

Inasmuch as our constitution says that "This constitution and
treaties made pursuant thereto shall be the supreme law of the
land," we cannot make ANY proscribed drug legal without abrogating
the treaty. Same with the Dutch and Portugese.

Do some more research.

You are the one who asserted that it is not illegal to buy or use drugs in
the Netherlands. I disputed that, sort of. I showed you that it is illegal
in The Netherlands to "possess" virtually all drugs. By buying or using
drugs, one is "possessing" them, therefore both of those conditions are
illegal.

It is now up to you to validate your claim.

Any ggogleing of "Netherlands Drug Policy" will show that oan walk into
a restaurant in the Netherlands and buy drugs off a menu.

Technically, they are unlawful however the official policy is that the
law is not enforced. The same is true in Portugal. If you want to call
something done in accordance with official government policy "illicit"
go right ahead.

"J. Clarke" wrote in
in.local:

Any ggogleing of "Netherlands Drug Policy" will show that oan walk into
a restaurant in the Netherlands and buy drugs off a menu.

Only true for a "coffeeshop" a Dutch euphemism for a pot cafe. Restaurant
are different establishments.

Technically, they are unlawful however the official policy is that the
law is not enforced. The same is true in Portugal. If you want to call
something done in accordance with official government policy "illicit"
go right ahead.

Technically correct. But since jurisprudence is important in Holland, as
it is here in the US, it is difficult to reverse the Dutch laissez faire
attitude that regards soft drugs as tolerated openly.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 02/17/2011 01:58 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In articlej4OdnQNl3sF3KMHQnZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d@earthlink .com,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:
In articlelLudnYqEv_LOSsbQnZ2dnUVZ_oqdnZ2d@earthlink .com,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:

EVERY drug illegal to possess in the US is also illegal to possess
in the Netherlands.

Common drugs considered contraband (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin,
etc.) are also contraband, i.e., illegal on their face, in The
Netherlands.

You might want to check again. Oh, and see what's been going on in
Portugal while you're about it.

I checked before I posted. Visit the chart at:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/c...e/dolin1-e.htm

The Netherlands, Portugal, and the U.S. are signatories to the United
Nations Single Convention Treaty on drugs. The treaty provides that
signatories provide criminal penalties for the use, manufacture,
sale, transport, blah-blah-blah, listed drugs.

Inasmuch as our constitution says that "This constitution and
treaties made pursuant thereto shall be the supreme law of the
land," we cannot make ANY proscribed drug legal without abrogating
the treaty. Same with the Dutch and Portugese.

Do some more research.

You are the one who asserted that it is not illegal to buy or use drugs in
the Netherlands. I disputed that, sort of. I showed you that it is illegal
in The Netherlands to "possess" virtually all drugs. By buying or using
drugs, one is "possessing" them, therefore both of those conditions are
illegal.

It is now up to you to validate your claim.

Any ggogleing of "Netherlands Drug Policy" will show that oan walk into
a restaurant in the Netherlands and buy drugs off a menu.

Technically, they are unlawful however the official policy is that the
law is not enforced. The same is true in Portugal. If you want to call
something done in accordance with official government policy "illicit"
go right ahead.


The same situation with our current immigration "policy" versus our
immigration laws.

J. Clarke wrote:

EVERY drug illegal to possess in the US is also illegal to
possess in the Netherlands.

Common drugs considered contraband (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin,
etc.) are also contraband, i.e., illegal on their face, in The
Netherlands.

You might want to check again. Oh, and see what's been going on
in Portugal while you're about it.

I checked before I posted. Visit the chart at:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/c...e/dolin1-e.htm

The Netherlands, Portugal, and the U.S. are signatories to the
United Nations Single Convention Treaty on drugs. The treaty
provides that signatories provide criminal penalties for the use,
manufacture, sale, transport, blah-blah-blah, listed drugs.

Inasmuch as our constitution says that "This constitution and
treaties made pursuant thereto shall be the supreme law of the
land," we cannot make ANY proscribed drug legal without abrogating
the treaty. Same with the Dutch and Portugese.

Do some more research.

You are the one who asserted that it is not illegal to buy or use
drugs in the Netherlands. I disputed that, sort of. I showed you
that it is illegal in The Netherlands to "possess" virtually all
drugs. By buying or using drugs, one is "possessing" them, therefore
both of those conditions are illegal.

It is now up to you to validate your claim.

Any ggogleing of "Netherlands Drug Policy" will show that oan walk
into a restaurant in the Netherlands and buy drugs off a menu.

Technically, they are unlawful however the official policy is that the
law is not enforced. The same is true in Portugal. If you want to
call something done in accordance with official government policy
"illicit" go right ahead.

I'm glad you finally agree with my statement above, "EVERY drug illegal to
possess in the US is also illegal to possess in the Netherlands."

If you want to discuss police and prosectorial malfeasance, corruption in
government, and subverting the rule of law, that's a whole 'nother thread.

In article ,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:

EVERY drug illegal to possess in the US is also illegal to
possess in the Netherlands.

Common drugs considered contraband (Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroin,
etc.) are also contraband, i.e., illegal on their face, in The
Netherlands.

You might want to check again. Oh, and see what's been going on
in Portugal while you're about it.

I checked before I posted. Visit the chart at:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/c...e/dolin1-e.htm

The Netherlands, Portugal, and the U.S. are signatories to the
United Nations Single Convention Treaty on drugs. The treaty
provides that signatories provide criminal penalties for the use,
manufacture, sale, transport, blah-blah-blah, listed drugs.

Inasmuch as our constitution says that "This constitution and
treaties made pursuant thereto shall be the supreme law of the
land," we cannot make ANY proscribed drug legal without abrogating
the treaty. Same with the Dutch and Portugese.

Do some more research.

You are the one who asserted that it is not illegal to buy or use
drugs in the Netherlands. I disputed that, sort of. I showed you
that it is illegal in The Netherlands to "possess" virtually all
drugs. By buying or using drugs, one is "possessing" them, therefore
both of those conditions are illegal.

It is now up to you to validate your claim.

Any ggogleing of "Netherlands Drug Policy" will show that oan walk
into a restaurant in the Netherlands and buy drugs off a menu.

Technically, they are unlawful however the official policy is that the
law is not enforced. The same is true in Portugal. If you want to
call something done in accordance with official government policy
"illicit" go right ahead.

I'm glad you finally agree with my statement above, "EVERY drug illegal to
possess in the US is also illegal to possess in the Netherlands."

If you want to discuss police and prosectorial malfeasance, corruption in
government, and subverting the rule of law, that's a whole 'nother thread.

The policy in Portugal is implemented by public law. So how is that
"police and prosecutorial malfeasance, corruption in government, and
subverting the rule of law"?

Sorry, but you really need to get your head of the DEA's ass and start
doing some research on your own--the DEA has a vested interest in making
us believe that drugs are an immense problem that can only be resolved
by draconian measures implemented by the DEA busting all and sundry.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...


Sorry, but you really need to get your head of the DEA's ass and start
doing some research on your own--the DEA has a vested interest in making
us believe that drugs are an immense problem that can only be resolved
by draconian measures implemented by the DEA busting all and sundry.

Yup, as a rule bureaucracies rarely report to the legislature that they
should receive less funding and less power because they aren't really fixing
the problem.

J. Clarke wrote:

If you want to discuss police and prosectorial malfeasance,
corruption in government, and subverting the rule of law, that's a
whole 'nother thread.

The policy in Portugal is implemented by public law. So how is that
"police and prosecutorial malfeasance, corruption in government, and
subverting the rule of law"?

Sorry, but you really need to get your head of the DEA's ass and start
doing some research on your own--the DEA has a vested interest in
making us believe that drugs are an immense problem that can only be
resolved by draconian measures implemented by the DEA busting all and
sundry.

I knew nothing about Portugal, so I didn't comment on it. Since you
insisted, I looked it up.

EVERY drung illegal in the U.S. is likewise imposes a sanction on the
Portugese.

While up to a ten day's supply of a drug is not subject to CRIMINAL
penalties in Portugal, people who possess these drugs ARE subject to CIVIL
remedies, including fines and incarceration.

You are confusing "decriminalization" with "legalization." Illegal drugs are
still "illegal" in Portugal, though only through the civil process.

In article ,
says...

J. Clarke wrote:

If you want to discuss police and prosectorial malfeasance,
corruption in government, and subverting the rule of law, that's a
whole 'nother thread.

The policy in Portugal is implemented by public law. So how is that
"police and prosecutorial malfeasance, corruption in government, and
subverting the rule of law"?

Sorry, but you really need to get your head of the DEA's ass and start
doing some research on your own--the DEA has a vested interest in
making us believe that drugs are an immense problem that can only be
resolved by draconian measures implemented by the DEA busting all and
sundry.

I knew nothing about Portugal, so I didn't comment on it. Since you
insisted, I looked it up.

EVERY drung illegal in the U.S. is likewise imposes a sanction on the
Portugese.

While up to a ten day's supply of a drug is not subject to CRIMINAL
penalties in Portugal, people who possess these drugs ARE subject to CIVIL
remedies, including fines and incarceration.

Only if they are not addicted.

You are confusing "decriminalization" with "legalization." Illegal drugs are
still "illegal" in Portugal, though only through the civil process.

Yes, they are technical violations of the law.

You seem to be getting hung up on minor technicalities and not on the
actual effect of the policies.

On Feb 18, 10:56*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:


You seem to be getting hung up on minor technicalities ........

Pot, kettle.....