Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth surface.

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

Morris Dovey wrote:

To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth surface.

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!

You might try vacuum pressing the foil to the wood - could make a
smoother looking finish. Of course, the boxes could be too big for a
vacuum bag...

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

The FIL use to make tack boxes for horse owners. He bought the birch ply
with aluminium sheets pre glued to it, and just cut it to size. Maybe you
could find it with stainless and remake the boxes. Save the others boxes for
some other use.
As for the spray glue . I've used something close to that in various brands
at work to glue foam insulation to steel panels. I've not been real happy
with the long term hold of it . You may want to go with the brush/roll on
contact . The spray to me is more like silly string and doesn't cover as
good in my opinion.
I've got a few pictures of his boxes around. If you would like a look at
them to see if it would work for you let me know and I can send them to you.
Jim
"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...

To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt, UV,
bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some wooden
boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth
surface.

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:14:15 -0600, Morris Dovey
wrote:


To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth surface.

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!


I wonder if you sprayed the box with that truck bed liner stuff [
rhino liner?] might work. seems like it would seal every thing tight
and last a long long time.

skeez

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

Morris Dovey wrote:
....

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?
....

Specifically for the question asked, "no, not really"...

I'm wondering why not simply fabricate the boxes from SS or one of the
resistant alloys or even AL and forget the wood entirely?

--

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On Jan 9, 10:14*am, Morris Dovey wrote:
To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

* *http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

* *http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth surface.

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

How big are these boxes, Morris? (Psssst.. I have done a little
laminating in my day.) What kind of wood? Shape?

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/9/2010 9:25 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:

You might try vacuum pressing the foil to the wood - could make a
smoother looking finish. Of course, the boxes could be too big for a
vacuum bag...

Hmmm - I hadn't considered vacuum. I might be able to make a "bag" with
a sheet aluminum top and bottom with plastic around the four sides...

....I definitely need to give the approach some serious thought. Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/9/2010 9:44 AM, Jim Northey wrote:
The FIL use to make tack boxes for horse owners. He bought the birch ply
with aluminium sheets pre glued to it, and just cut it to size. Maybe you
could find it with stainless and remake the boxes. Save the others boxes for
some other use.
As for the spray glue . I've used something close to that in various brands
at work to glue foam insulation to steel panels. I've not been real happy
with the long term hold of it . You may want to go with the brush/roll on
contact . The spray to me is more like silly string and doesn't cover as
good in my opinion.
I've got a few pictures of his boxes around. If you would like a look at
them to see if it would work for you let me know and I can send them to you.

Please. I'd like to take a look - and I confess ignorance as to
suitability of particular adhesives.

This whole exercise is intended to maximize the useful lifetime of the
boxes so, yes, I do care about the long term hold. I'm not committed to
aerosol application - I'd just wanted to avoid a too-thick mass that
might uglify the finished product...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On Jan 9, 10:14*am, Morris Dovey wrote:
To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

* *http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

* *http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth surface.

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

One method we use to remove laminates (and we do use metals sometimes)
is a heat gun. Contact cement and heat don't get along. Something to
keep in mind. I thought of that, because when Morris is around, the
sun can't be far away. What? Waitasec....

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/9/2010 9:56 AM, Robatoy wrote:

How big are these boxes, Morris? (Psssst.. I have done a little
laminating in my day.) What kind of wood? Shape?

Two sizes: 48" x 72" x 8" and 96" x 72" x 8". I only need the s/s around
the four 8" sides of the box.

I'm still experimenting with wood types, and my material choices open up
dramatically if I can ensure that the material is completely shielded
from the elements.

Anticipating your next post, these /will/ be perched in the sun - but
shouldn't be subjected to temperatures higher than about 150°F/65°C or
lower than about -40°F/C.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/9/2010 9:46 AM, skeez wrote:

[ Mis-sent directly to skeez (sorry) ]

I wonder if you sprayed the box with that truck bed liner stuff [
rhino liner?] might work. seems like it would seal every thing tight
and last a long long time.

I'll follow-up on that. I'd like for these things to be good for a
century or so in a high-UV environment, so I'd more or less ruled out
plastics. A trip to the junkyard to look at old pickup might provide me
with some notion as to how bed liner material holds up...

Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/9/2010 9:46 AM, dpb wrote:

[ Mis-sent directly to dpb (sorry) ]

I'm wondering why not simply fabricate the boxes from SS or one of the
resistant alloys or even AL and forget the wood entirely?

I've considered that - but wood has properties that make it particularly
well-suited for these boxes. It appears that it's a lot more economical
to enhance outer surface of wooden boxes with a small amount of metal
than it is to deal with the thermal headaches inherent in an all- or
mostly-metal box.

The boxes already have some 1/8" aluminum trim that I worry about not
holding up well in coastal/salty/high-pollution areas... :(

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/09/10 10:14 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:

To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth surface.

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!

Have you considered asphalt shingles, should last for 15 years or so,
match the building if appropriate, and they would be easy to replace.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

Morris Dovey wrote:
On 1/9/2010 9:46 AM, dpb wrote:

[ Mis-sent directly to dpb (sorry) ]

I'm wondering why not simply fabricate the boxes from SS or one of the
resistant alloys or even AL and forget the wood entirely?

I've considered that - but wood has properties that make it particularly
well-suited for these boxes. It appears that it's a lot more economical
to enhance outer surface of wooden boxes with a small amount of metal
than it is to deal with the thermal headaches inherent in an all- or
mostly-metal box.

I'd think a thin layer of foam/etc. on inside would be far
quicker/cheaper and at least as much thermal resistance as 3/4" ply for
the thermal part...the structural end could still be an issue, granted.

How big are the boxes out of curiosity?

The boxes already have some 1/8" aluminum trim that I worry about not
holding up well in coastal/salty/high-pollution areas... :(

That could be issue w/ common AL alloys, certainly. Altho we had
trouble w/ some SS's being susceptible to grain-boundary-site initiated
corrosion in some areas in paper mills, too (specifically bleaching
operations w/ Cl processes) so depending on the environment even there
may need to consider the specific alloy.

--

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

Morris Dovey wrote:
To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth
surface.
I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor
the foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive
enough to make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!

You didn't say what kind of wood, what the boxes are for or how important
appearance is. I'm assuming plywood since laminating anything to solid wood
is iffy.

If appearance isn't terribly important - and if it were me - I'd laminate
the ply with fiberglass and polyester (not epoxy) resin, then paint it.
I've never done that where it snows but have many times in the
tropics...lots of sun, heat, salt from the ocean. It works well, had stuff
like that for 20+ years.

The potential problem with *any* lamination is DElamination...once water
gets between the two surfaces rot starts quickly. And how about the inside
of the boxes? At the very least, any laminate should be continuous over the
wood edges.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/9/2010 11:03 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:

Have you considered asphalt shingles, should last for 15 years or so,
match the building if appropriate, and they would be easy to replace.

I'd like smooth paintable surface (to at least not clash with house
siding) without penetrating fasteners. The wood, if kept painted, should
last more than 20 years; and I'd like for these things to last for at
least 50 years even if not maintained at all. I'd also like to keep
weight down to control shipping costs.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

"Morris Dovey" wrote

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.


I can't imagine the adhesive holding up that well in these circumstances.
Particularly if it gets hot inside of that box. If you tired this, I would
have to get some kind of assurances from the manufacturer that it would be
suitable for this application.


Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

What you need is some kind of coating over the outside.

Fiberglass comes to mind. I have seen fiberglass work well, but it
deteriorates over time. It would need to be refreshed from time to time.

I used to work for a solar heating company that made the parabolic heaters
for pools. We thermoformed everything. We got the metal coated mylar in
sheets from the plastic company. We then just heated up the thermoforming
machine and made up the parts. We were interested in its reflective
properties.

Since you need a protective covering, you wouldn't need the reflective
coating. Would something like this work? You could talk to the plastics
company guys. They are very knowledgable. It is easy to make a
thermoforming machine. You like to make things low cost knockoffs of
industrial machines anyway. G You can get plastics that last a million
years. Attaching the protective plastic cover to the wood would be the
tricky part.

And also, a spray on material could work as well. I know nothing about this.
I know that somebody suggested the truckliner stuff. Could you go to a
truckliner guy and have him spray the unit?

Is there some other kind of material/process that is sprayable? You might
look at heavy duty spraying eqipment and talk to those guys. They may be
able to give you some suggestions as to who talk to.

And you can always ask Lew for his epoxy suggestions. :)

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/09/10 1:55 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
On 1/9/2010 11:03 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:

Have you considered asphalt shingles, should last for 15 years or so,
match the building if appropriate, and they would be easy to replace.

I'd like smooth paintable surface (to at least not clash with house
siding) without penetrating fasteners. The wood, if kept painted, should
last more than 20 years; and I'd like for these things to last for at
least 50 years even if not maintained at all. I'd also like to keep
weight down to control shipping costs.

Not sure about the painting or colours available, but how about some of
the flat roofing type products (most are probably black I suspect, but
there may be options).

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On Jan 9, 1:55*pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
On 1/9/2010 11:03 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:

Have you considered asphalt shingles, should last for 15 years or so,
match the building if appropriate, and they would be easy to replace.

I'd like smooth paintable surface (to at least not clash with house
siding) without penetrating fasteners. The wood, if kept painted, should
last more than 20 years; and I'd like for these things to last for at
least 50 years even if not maintained at all. I'd also like to keep
weight down to control shipping costs.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

The flashing that roofers use comes in colours and seems to last a
long time.

That .002 SS foil would stick to wood with Wilsonart 3000. That type
of adhesive is just amazing. Weldbond is similar. Water based
technology has come a long way.
And as long as one side of the joint is porous, it will work just
fine.
Just how important is the shipping weight? Isn't size the driver in
the shipping costs more so than a couple of extra pounds?

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/9/2010 11:44 AM, dadiOH wrote:

You didn't say what kind of wood, what the boxes are for or how important
appearance is. I'm assuming plywood since laminating anything to solid wood
is iffy.

Plywood and manufactured sheet goods are a possibility - but right now
I'm working with SYP and poplar. If I can completely prevent moisture
from getting at the wood, then my materials choices widen substantially.

The boxes, of course, are solar heating panels. The front is glazed and
the back will be out of view (inside a south wall). The interior of the
box will be exposed to warm air at the same moisture level as the inside
of the structure - which isn't much of a concern. What I want to do is
protect that portion of the box edges that are exposed to the outdoors.

Appearance is important. I'd like 'em to look smooth, clean, and simple.
Paintable would be very nice, but probably isn't an absolute requirement.

Currently I apply a wipe-on coat of poly, sand lightly with #400, and
brush on a coat of white primer. The customer then applies a color coat
of their choosing - but beyond that point longevity depends entirely on
the customer keeping the exposed portion of the box painted, and I want
to remove that dependency.

If appearance isn't terribly important - and if it were me - I'd laminate
the ply with fiberglass and polyester (not epoxy) resin, then paint it.
I've never done that where it snows but have many times in the
tropics...lots of sun, heat, salt from the ocean. It works well, had stuff
like that for 20+ years.

Twenty years isn't long enough. I'd settle for 50 years, but a century
would be way more than twice as good. I'm determined to make these
things to outlast the customer's grandchildren if I can. :)

The potential problem with *any* lamination is DElamination...once water
gets between the two surfaces rot starts quickly. And how about the inside
of the boxes? At the very least, any laminate should be continuous over the
wood edges.

I'm not worried about the inside of the boxes at all - they tend to be
self-regulating and have good airflow.

I am concerned about the adhesive deteriorating over time (that's one of
the reasons I'm looking for advice here). One of the box's design points
is that all glue and sealant areas are already shielded from UV, and now
I'm wanting to provide 100% protection for the exposed (exterior) wood.

One of the things I like about the foil approach is that I can fold it
over the front edge of the box side so that the front edge of the box is
covered. I'm planning to use a closed-cell foam weather stripping
between that edge and the glazing, and a 1/8" aluminum trim angle over
the edge of the glazing to protect the weather stripping from UV and to
dress up the edge. By doing that, I should be able to prevent moisture
entry and make the glazing removable (it's not now) to allow cleaning
when needed.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

On 1/09/10 2:43 PM, Robatoy wrote:
On Jan 9, 1:55 pm, Morris wrote:
On 1/9/2010 11:03 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:

Have you considered asphalt shingles, should last for 15 years or so,
match the building if appropriate, and they would be easy to replace.

I'd like smooth paintable surface (to at least not clash with house
siding) without penetrating fasteners. The wood, if kept painted, should
last more than 20 years; and I'd like for these things to last for at
least 50 years even if not maintained at all. I'd also like to keep
weight down to control shipping costs.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

The flashing that roofers use comes in colours and seems to last a
long time.

That .002 SS foil would stick to wood with Wilsonart 3000. That type
of adhesive is just amazing. Weldbond is similar. Water based
technology has come a long way.
And as long as one side of the joint is porous, it will work just
fine.
Just how important is the shipping weight? Isn't size the driver in
the shipping costs more so than a couple of extra pounds?

Even a vinyl or aluminum siding product may be worth considering, I am
just thinking of products already designed to be outside anyway.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

Morris have a look at this page. Definitely not smooth or paintable but
lasting .......... yes. 50 year warranty......life expected to last 100
years. Gottem on my house! They make flat sheets for for trimming aroung
chimney's and the like. Lots of color and pattern options. May not be what
you want but the longevity is in the range you require. Decra is not
cheap......you didn't mention price range.
Lyndell

http://www.decra.com/


"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...

To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt, UV,
bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some wooden
boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth
surface.

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Hold my beer - I'm gonna try try something...
 

Morris Dovey wrote:
If appearance isn't terribly important - and if it were me - I'd
laminate the ply with fiberglass and polyester (not epoxy) resin,
then paint it. I've never done that where it snows but have many
times in the tropics...lots of sun, heat, salt from the ocean. It
works well, had stuff like that for 20+ years.

Twenty years isn't long enough. I'd settle for 50 years, but a century
would be way more than twice as good. I'm determined to make these
things to outlast the customer's grandchildren if I can. :)

May have lasted much longer, don't know, 20 years was the length of time I
had the stuff before selling.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
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On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 07:14:15 -0800, Morris Dovey wrote:


To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth
surface.

Besides being expensive, 0.002 stainless foil is THIN. If the completed
box gets any significant rough handling you should expect one or more cuts
through it.

You mention exposure to salt, if the stainless foil is in contact with
salt water (or other source of chlorine ions) in the absence of oxygen it
will corrode fairly quickly. Foil 0.002" thick doesn't allow for much
corrosion. Salt water trapped between your box and another surface or even
a layer of sal****er mud can exclude oxygen to the degree required.

WayneJ

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On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:14:15 -0600, Morris Dovey
wrote:


To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.


'k, I'm intruiged. Can I ask what the use of these boxes is?

-Zz

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On 1/9/2010 2:59 PM, Zz Yzx wrote:

'k, I'm intruiged. Can I ask what the use of these boxes is?

Solar heating panels. They mount in the sunny side of a structure to
keep it warm. Photos at

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Madison/

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

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On 1/9/2010 1:43 PM, Robatoy wrote:

The flashing that roofers use comes in colours and seems to last a
long time.

The metal doesn't appear to be a large cost factor. I thought about
flashing, but my flashing choices here appear to be aluminum and copper.

Copper is expensive and changes appearance (which might be ok with some
customers, but not with others). Aluminum is a little better with
respect to appearance, but would perform poorly on a sal****er coast. I
chose stainless primarily because I want it to hold up well not only in
Des Moines and Sarnia, but also Edinburgh and Oslo...

....for a very long time.

That .002 SS foil would stick to wood with Wilsonart 3000. That type
of adhesive is just amazing. Weldbond is similar. Water based
technology has come a long way.
And as long as one side of the joint is porous, it will work just
fine.

*This* is a big part of what I was after. Thank you! I'll investigate.

Just how important is the shipping weight? Isn't size the driver in
the shipping costs more so than a couple of extra pounds?

It's probably not a major factor, but I still don't want to add any more
mass than necessary. Already I'm discovering that these things are
getting heavier every year...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

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On Jan 9, 7:14*am, Morris Dovey wrote:
To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive ...
to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil

In terms of moisture and fungus attacking the wood, your structure
will need roof-like coverage; that means flashing in addition to
the foil/cement that protects the large flat surface. Stainless
steel will just be a kind of paint, with all the problems of paint
(nicks or cracks will grow into major flaws). Some ventilation
will be required, too, or the protected wood will never have
a chance to air-dry in case of accidental moisture.

Instead of looking at just the protect-flat-surface part of the
problem, you need to examine edge and corner and
overlap areas, and apply appropriate flashing there. It doesn't
seem to me this will be easy.

If dissimilar metals are nearby, and if they touch the stainless,
you can expect accelerated corrosion of the metal. Copper
and lead roof structures have lasted centuries, so
there's certainly hope for success.

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On 1/9/2010 9:14 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Have you looked into any of the vinyl products? Vinyl clad wood seems to
have a pretty good track record.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

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Subject

Trying to laminate a wood core with fiberglass, metal, etc is at best
a very difficult thing to do.

Ultimately the adhesive will get you and wood core structure is heavy.

Stainless steel in a marine environment is a loser.

"Stain Less" are the operative words.

Unless you use 316L, forget it.

Faced with your situation, I'd start talking to the "Plastic Wood"
people.

Seems like a natural, especially since the offer dimensional lumber
sizes.

Lew

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"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

Subject

Trying to laminate a wood core with fiberglass, metal, etc is at best a
very difficult thing to do.

Ultimately the adhesive will get you and wood core structure is heavy.

Stainless steel in a marine environment is a loser.

"Stain Less" are the operative words.

Unless you use 316L, forget it.

Faced with your situation, I'd start talking to the "Plastic Wood" people.

Seems like a natural, especially since the offer dimensional lumber sizes.

Lew

Carbon Fiber over balsa wood like on a Corvette should do the trick...
Strong and light. ;~)

John

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"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

Carbon Fiber over balsa wood like on a Corvette should do the
trick... Strong and light. ;~)

Two basic problems:

Carbon is still on allocation $$$$

Balsa sucks.

Ever have to redo a boat deck that has a rotted balsa core, from
getting water in the balsa core?

Lew

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"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
On 1/9/2010 9:46 AM, skeez wrote:

[ Mis-sent directly to skeez (sorry) ]

I wonder if you sprayed the box with that truck bed liner stuff [
rhino liner?] might work. seems like it would seal every thing tight
and last a long long time.

I'll follow-up on that. I'd like for these things to be good for a century
or so in a high-UV environment, so I'd more or less ruled out plastics. A
trip to the junkyard to look at old pickup might provide me with some
notion as to how bed liner material holds up...

Thanks!


While you are there, maybe check out Undercoat. Some of these folks should
be able to give you the UV tolerance of their products. What do the utility
companies or railroads do?

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On 1/9/2010 10:14 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:

To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.

The rough plan is to apply spray adhesive - something similar to

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY505-2691

to the wood and then very carefully apply 0.002" stainless steel foil
similar to this stuff

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SY326-1520

over the adhesive and use a roller to ensure good contact / smooth surface.

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?

Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!

How about you forgo the wood & SS sheet idea, and think
about extruded aluminum C-channel instead? You can frame
your box, have the edges welded seamlessly, and get a nice
plasma or hard anodize finish applied to the final assembly.
These finishes have excellent aesthetics, and will resist
handling / installation abuse well, as they're part of the
surface micro-structure of the metal (vs. external
coatings). Overall weight is reduced, too, so that might be
beneficial.

Tabs could be added to the inside to attach mountings,
glass, solar panel parts, etc. If you're concerned about
heat loss or conduction, perhaps the inside section of the
channel could be sprayed with foam or other insulator.

Food for thought ... it's not woodworking anymore, of course
.... :)

Aero

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"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
On 1/9/2010 9:46 AM, dpb wrote:

[ Mis-sent directly to dpb (sorry) ]

I'm wondering why not simply fabricate the boxes from SS or one of the
resistant alloys or even AL and forget the wood entirely?

I've considered that - but wood has properties that make it particularly
well-suited for these boxes. It appears that it's a lot more economical to
enhance outer surface of wooden boxes with a small amount of metal than it
is to deal with the thermal headaches inherent in an all- or mostly-metal
box.

The boxes already have some 1/8" aluminum trim that I worry about not
holding up well in coastal/salty/high-pollution areas... :(


I'm not sure stainless holds up all that well in salty applications. I've
seen supposedly stainless measuring cups pit when I use them for sal****er
aquarium water preparation. Brass might hold up better in a salty
environment, but I don't have a clue about that.

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On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 17:17:43 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


Subject

Trying to laminate a wood core with fiberglass, metal, etc is at best
a very difficult thing to do.

Ultimately the adhesive will get you and wood core structure is heavy.

Stainless steel in a marine environment is a loser.

"Stain Less" are the operative words.

Unless you use 316L, forget it.

Faced with your situation, I'd start talking to the "Plastic Wood"
people.

Seems like a natural, especially since the offer dimensional lumber
sizes.

Perhap copper it will last and age well.

Mark

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"LDosser" wrote:

I'm not sure stainless holds up all that well in salty applications.
I've seen supposedly stainless measuring cups pit when I use them
for sal****er aquarium water preparation. Brass might hold up better
in a salty environment, but I don't have a clue about that.

Brass in salt water is strictly a loser, the zinc leaches out leaving
a structure that will crumble in your hand.

Stainless Steel is no winner either.

"stain" and "less" are the operative words.

18-8, of which is what most cooking utensils are made, will pit right
in front of you, if left to continuous exposure of salt warter.

316L, about a 35% price premium, will last a little longer, but
silicon bronze is your best shot.

Lew

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"Markem" wrote:
Perhap copper it will last and age well.

Only problem with copper, other than initial cost, is that it would
get stolen before it gets installed, for it's scrap value.

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Morris Dovey wrote:


To prevent damage from exposure to the environment (rain, snow, salt,
UV, bugs, etc) I've been thinking about wrapping the outside of some
wooden boxes in stainless steel for some time now.
.... snip

I've never done anything like this before, neither the adhesive nor the
foil is particularly cheap, and the wooden boxes are expensive enough to
make me nervous about screwing up even one full-sized test.

Has anyone tried anything like this (first-hand experience) or know of
someone else who did? Did it work and if not, why not?


Haven't done anything exactly like this, but I'd be concerned that 2 mil
steel covering is going to be susceptible to all sorts of damage from
handling and pre-installation problems. That would leave a channel for
water infiltration that could result in worse long-term damage than exposed
but painted wood. 2 mils is really more tin foil than covering.


Does anyone know of more suitable/better/longer-lasting materials?

Any technique suggestions that might make the job easier or provide
longer-lasting protection?

Thanks!


--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

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On 1/9/2010 10:18 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

18-8, of which is what most cooking utensils are made, will pit right
in front of you, if left to continuous exposure of salt warter.

316L, about a 35% price premium, will last a little longer, but
silicon bronze is your best shot.

Hmm. Thanks. What I've been looking at in my catalog are Type 321 and
Type 309 stainless tool wrap - probably good for their intended purpose
(making a quick "airtight" envelope for heat treating small parts), but
not necessarily great for mine.

I doubt solar heating panels will be continuously exposed to salt water
- but I'd like 'em to hold up as well as possible in coastal areas. I
could live with a 35% premium if 316L holds up significantly longer than
309 and 321, and I've added the search for silicon bronze foil to my
to-do list.

I'll do my own research, of course, but do you have a notion of the
difference in cost between silicon bronze and, say, 316L stainless? And
are you aware of any mechanical properties that might make it more/less
difficult to work with?

I have a local customer who's volunteered to be a guinea pig for Type
321 panels, and I don't expect any salt problems here - so building his
order will be the learning exercise in applying a metal jacket to these
things. Since I have you "on the line" would you care to comment on Lee
Michaels' suggestion of possibly using an epoxy as the adhesive?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/