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The House of Representatives passed Health Care Reform tonight.
Hello Senate. Lew |
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"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message ... The House of Representatives passed Health Care Reform tonight. Hello Senate. Lew Here is a 62 page "summary" of the bill http://energycommerce.house.gov/Pres...by_Section.pdf |
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Lew Hodgett wrote:
The House of Representatives passed Health Care Reform tonight. Hello Senate. Lew As someone else put it, "Who would have thought that liberty would die with the sound of thunderous applause?" -- There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage Rob Leatham |
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"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
m... Lew Hodgett wrote: The House of Representatives passed Health Care Reform tonight. Hello Senate. Lew As someone else put it, "Who would have thought that liberty would die with the sound of thunderous applause?" When Australia first nationalised medical care in 1975, I was vehemently opposed to it. Saw it as government interference, creeping socialism and denying freedom of choice. I held that view for many years. Gradually, as I saw it get through some teething troubles and changes, some of which were caused by changes of government it evolved into a workable system. Both sides of national politics now support it and have done for about the last 14 years. Insurance companies now have no involvement. Private insurance, which I carry, is via not for profit organisations which exist for the purpose of providing medical benefits for their members. Private health cover entitles me to a choice of private hospitals, choice of doctor and refunds in most cases of any additional fees not picked up by medicare. Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. Waiting times are determined by the level of urgency for treatment. Privately insured patients who have the option of treatment at private hospitals get faster treatment than those without cover, but only on non life threatening illnesses. Standard of care? - I have, unfortunately, spent the last 12 months in and out of both the private hospital system and the government hospitals. Surprisingly, I would have to admit that the government hospitals are better equipped and the standard of care overall is higher. The financial disasters that I and others like me predicted have not occurred. The system is remarkably efficient. And everyone, regardless, gets basic care at no cost, and those of us that wish to, still get freedom of choice. Currently, Australia spends approx 9% of GDP on medical care. I believe the US currently spends something like 15% of GDP. Yet Australians reportedly live on average live 4 years longer than the average US citizen. Got to be food for thought in that. We do not however, have a national dental care system, which puts dental treatment out of reach of many people. My insurance covers part of the cost, but disadvantaged people miss out. diggerop |
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Lew Hodgett wrote:
The House of Representatives passed Health Care Reform tonight. Hello Senate. Yep. The Republicans blew it. Immediately before the vote on the big bill, the House passed the "Stupak Amendment." This amendment prohibited any federal funds to be used for abortion. Without this amendment, the "Blue Dog" Democrats would not have supported the final bill. One hundred and seventy-six Republicans voted for the amendment and it passed. Had that amendment failed, the bulk of the 50-odd "Blue Dogs" would have voted against the final bill. As a tactical matter, the pro-life Republicans should have voted in favor of abortion that one time. |
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On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:12:49 +0800, diggerop wrote:
When Australia first nationalised medical care in 1975, I was vehemently opposed to it. Saw it as government interference, creeping socialism and denying freedom of choice. I held that view for many years. Gradually, as I saw it get through some teething troubles and changes, some of which were caused by changes of government it evolved into a workable system. Both sides of national politics now support it and have done for about the Thanks. It's nice to hear from someone who lived through the conversion to government health care and changed opinions as a result of facts. That doesn't happen very often :-). Now run and hide - the rampant right is coming after you! -- Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw |
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"diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message
. au... "Mark & Juanita" wrote in message m... When Australia first nationalised medical care in 1975, I was vehemently opposed to it. Saw it as government interference, creeping socialism and denying freedom of choice. I held that view for many years. Gradually, as I saw it get through some teething troubles and changes, some of which were caused by changes of government it evolved into a workable system. snip Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. No cost? Why do you not count your taxes which pay for it? Currently, Australia spends approx 9% of GDP on medical care. I believe the US currently spends something like 15% of GDP. Yet Australians reportedly live on average live 4 years longer than the average US citizen. Got to be food for thought in that. Many variables ae possible there. One might be American hypocondria. In some instances, staying away from doctors can be a healthier choice than being treated often. 99,000 Americans die every year from MRSA. Most catch it in hospitals and clinics during treatment for other problems. We do not however, have a national dental care system, which puts dental treatment out of reach of many people. My insurance covers part of the cost, but disadvantaged people miss out. diggerop Thanks for explaining the dental care situation. How are optical care and glasses paid for? Giving benefit of the doubt, let's presume that eye surgery is counted like any other surgery and paid for in the publicly funded system supported by tax money. Axel |
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diggerop wrote:
.... When Australia first nationalised medical care in 1975, I was vehemently opposed to it. Saw it as government interference, creeping socialism and denying freedom of choice. I held that view for many years. Gradually, as I saw it get through some teething troubles and changes, some of which were caused by changes of government it evolved into a workable system. Both sides of national politics now support it and have done for about the last 14 years. .... Yes, but the population of Australia is less than or roughly equivalent to that of the three largest states in the US--CA is almost 50% the size alone. The overall US population is almost 15X that. Doubt seriously the success there would scale nearly as well to the US on size and demographics. I'd love to think whatever they end up doing will have such a miraculous happy ending but can't see how it can possibly be w/ the cost models they're making up to support it and the requirements on insurance companies. -- |
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"diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. They converted you to a Socialist. Everything has a cost. That is what scares me about the proposed system, we don't know what the real cost is going to be. Yes, it would be ice to give everyone good health care, but who is going to pay how much? |
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Ed Pawlowski said:
"diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. They converted you to a Socialist. Everything has a cost. That is what scares me about the proposed system, we don't know what the real cost is going to be. Yes, it would be ice to give everyone good health care, but who is going to pay how much? In that case we've been Socialists for years: Roads and highways, police, fire departments, the military, Coast Guard, water treatment plants, NASA, the judicial circuits, schools, parks, community power consortiums... The things people need to live. Here is an interesting set of charts for your edification: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...20addition.pdf FWIW, Greg G. |
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Greg G. said:
Ed Pawlowski said: "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. They converted you to a Socialist. Everything has a cost. That is what scares me about the proposed system, we don't know what the real cost is going to be. Yes, it would be ice to give everyone good health care, but who is going to pay how much? In that case we've been Socialists for years: Roads and highways, police, fire departments, the military, Coast Guard, water treatment plants, NASA, the judicial circuits, schools, parks, community power consortiums... The things people need to live. Here is an interesting set of charts for your edification: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...20addition.pdf And a recent interesting story about IBM privatization v. "socialism": http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...tract+with+IBM Unfortunately, it is in regards to welfare services, but it could be there is a lesson in there somewhere... Greg G. |
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"Greg G." wrote in message
... Ed Pawlowski said: "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. They converted you to a Socialist. Everything has a cost. That is what scares me about the proposed system, we don't know what the real cost is going to be. Yes, it would be ice to give everyone good health care, but who is going to pay how much? In that case we've been Socialists for years: Roads and highways, police, fire departments, the military, Coast Guard, water treatment plants, NASA, the judicial circuits, schools, parks, community power consortiums... The things people need to live. Here is an interesting set of charts for your edification: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...20addition.pdf FWIW, Greg G. Can you think of a reason why Australia showed up on the spreadsheet and not on the graphs? |
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"Greg G." wrote in message
... Greg G. said: Ed Pawlowski said: "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. They converted you to a Socialist. Everything has a cost. That is what scares me about the proposed system, we don't know what the real cost is going to be. Yes, it would be ice to give everyone good health care, but who is going to pay how much? In that case we've been Socialists for years: Roads and highways, police, fire departments, the military, Coast Guard, water treatment plants, NASA, the judicial circuits, schools, parks, community power consortiums... The things people need to live. Here is an interesting set of charts for your edification: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...20addition.pdf And a recent interesting story about IBM privatization v. "socialism": http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...tract+with+IBM Unfortunately, it is in regards to welfare services, but it could be there is a lesson in there somewhere... What? |
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Greg G. wrote:
Ed Pawlowski said: "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. They converted you to a Socialist. Everything has a cost. That is what scares me about the proposed system, we don't know what the real cost is going to be. Yes, it would be ice to give everyone good health care, but who is going to pay how much? In that case we've been Socialists for years: Roads and highways, police, fire departments, the military, Coast Guard, water treatment plants, NASA, the judicial circuits, schools, parks, community power consortiums... The things people need to live. If you don't understand the difference between the enumerated powers, local responsibilities, and the government takeover of private enterprise then there is no reason to even attempt discussion on the topic. Here is an interesting set of charts for your edification: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...20addition.pdf FWIW, Greg G. -- There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage Rob Leatham |
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When Australia first nationalised medical care in 1975, I was vehemently opposed to it. Saw it as government interference, creeping socialism and denying freedom of choice. I held that view for many years. Gradually, as I saw it get through some teething troubles and changes, some of which were caused by changes of government it evolved into a workable system. Both sides of national politics now support it and have done for about the last 14 years. Insurance companies now have no involvement. Private insurance, which I carry, is via not for profit organisations which exist for the purpose of providing medical benefits for their members. Private health cover entitles me to a choice of private hospitals, choice of doctor and refunds in most cases of any additional fees not picked up by medicare. Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. Waiting times are determined by the level of urgency for treatment. Privately insured patients who have the option of treatment at private hospitals get faster treatment than those without cover, but only on non life threatening illnesses. Standard of care? - I have, unfortunately, spent the last 12 months in and out of both the private hospital system and the government hospitals. Surprisingly, I would have to admit that the government hospitals are better equipped and the standard of care overall is higher. The financial disasters that I and others like me predicted have not occurred. The system is remarkably efficient. And everyone, regardless, gets basic care at no cost, and those of us that wish to, still get freedom of choice. Currently, Australia spends approx 9% of GDP on medical care. I believe the US currently spends something like 15% of GDP. Yet Australians reportedly live on average live 4 years longer than the average US citizen. Got to be food for thought in that. We do not however, have a national dental care system, which puts dental treatment out of reach of many people. My insurance covers part of the cost, but disadvantaged people miss out. diggerop Question: Is your goverment able to stand on it's own feet, or is it special intersts groups who do the talking, as in the US? |
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Axel Grease wrote:
"diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message . au... "Mark & Juanita" wrote in message m... When Australia first nationalised medical care in 1975, I was vehemently opposed to it. Saw it as government interference, creeping socialism and denying freedom of choice. I held that view for many years. Gradually, as I saw it get through some teething troubles and changes, some of which were caused by changes of government it evolved into a workable system. snip Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. No cost? Why do you not count your taxes which pay for it? Currently, Australia spends approx 9% of GDP on medical care. I believe the US currently spends something like 15% of GDP. Yet Australians reportedly live on average live 4 years longer than the average US citizen. Got to be food for thought in that. Many variables ae possible there. One might be American hypocondria. In some instances, staying away from doctors can be a healthier choice than being treated often. 99,000 Americans die every year from MRSA. Most catch it in hospitals and clinics during treatment for other problems. The problem with this sort of argument is that we don't know how "die" is defined. Most countries don't count stillbirths and miscarriages as "deaths" but they define "stillbirth" and "miscarriage" in different ways--in some places they'll struggle mightily to save a 20 week fetus and list it as "infant mortality" when they fail, while in other places a full term infant that dies within an hour of birth is a "stillbirth". And regardless of UN guidelines their statistics are based on reported deaths and doctors in the middle of treating patients don't give a hoot in Hell about some bureaucrat's statistical requirements. We do not however, have a national dental care system, which puts dental treatment out of reach of many people. My insurance covers part of the cost, but disadvantaged people miss out. diggerop Thanks for explaining the dental care situation. How are optical care and glasses paid for? Giving benefit of the doubt, let's presume that eye surgery is counted like any other surgery and paid for in the publicly funded system supported by tax money. Just a comment, but with regard to routine eye care, an eye exam in the US costs 50 bucks and anybody can get glasses for 8 bucks, so I don't see any need for medical insurance to pay for those. |
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Greg G. wrote:
Ed Pawlowski said: "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. They converted you to a Socialist. Everything has a cost. That is what scares me about the proposed system, we don't know what the real cost is going to be. Yes, it would be ice to give everyone good health care, but who is going to pay how much? In that case we've been Socialists for years: Roads and highways, police, fire departments, the military, Coast Guard, water treatment plants, NASA, the judicial circuits, schools, parks, community power consortiums... The things people need to live. People need NASA to live? Do tell. The founders carefully considered what the government should pay for and listed it in the Constitution. There is nothing there about the government paying for medical treatment. And schools, police, and fire departments are not funded by the national government, nor are parks. I don't know what a "community power consortium" is but there is certainly no Federally funded power grid. Here is an interesting set of charts for your edification: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...20addition.pdf And the government paying for it is going to alter those charts in what way? |
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Greg G. wrote:
Greg G. said: Ed Pawlowski said: "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. They converted you to a Socialist. Everything has a cost. That is what scares me about the proposed system, we don't know what the real cost is going to be. Yes, it would be ice to give everyone good health care, but who is going to pay how much? In that case we've been Socialists for years: Roads and highways, police, fire departments, the military, Coast Guard, water treatment plants, NASA, the judicial circuits, schools, parks, community power consortiums... The things people need to live. Here is an interesting set of charts for your edification: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...20addition.pdf And a recent interesting story about IBM privatization v. "socialism": http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...tract+with+IBM Unfortunately, it is in regards to welfare services, but it could be there is a lesson in there somewhere... Business is not designed to give away money--the failed concept is that you can help people by giving them money without also giving them incentives to work and the skills necessary to obtain work (which are different from the skills necessary to _do_ work). |
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"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
... "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. They converted you to a Socialist. Heh. With respect, Ed, you have no idea. I am about as socialistic as Ghegis Khan. I'm a free enterprise man. I am a union hating conservative voter, suspicious of and opposed to government control (read interference,) in most things. Attempting to describe my political outlook from what I wrote amounts to blind, arrogant stupidity on your part. (If that sounds a little strong to you, I do admit to, but refuse to apologise for, an aggressive personality.) Admitting that that in spite of my political leanings, something that I was vehemently opposed to and was sure would be an unworkable disaster actually worked reasonably well (and could work better, I have no doubt,) doesn't make me a socialist. Just smart enough to admit I'm not always right. My greatest regret in recent years has been the defeat of the Howard government. Had he been returned, I am convinced he would have continued to make all spheres of public spending leaner and meaner. The current socialist government seems hell bent on throwing public money around and spending their inheritance from the Howard/Costello years. Everything has a cost. That is what scares me about the proposed system, we don't know what the real cost is going to be. Yes, it would be ice to give everyone good health care, but who is going to pay how much? Yes indeed. It will be interesting to see what transpires. diggerop |
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Mark & Juanita said:
Greg G. wrote: In that case we've been Socialists for years: Roads and highways, police, fire departments, the military, Coast Guard, water treatment plants, NASA, the judicial circuits, schools, parks, community power consortiums... The things people need to live. If you don't understand the difference between the enumerated powers, local responsibilities, and the government takeover of private enterprise then there is no reason to even attempt discussion on the topic. Health care should apparently not be private, at least not until greed is removed as a component. It is a human/societal need, not a Rolex. No different from the fire department. But to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't trust the *******s you people elect in this county any farther than I can toss them either. It's a no win situation either way. I'll be damned if I'm going to allow the government to force me to pay a bunch of avaricious for-profit institutions of ANY sort, for any reason. Been through this with thieving auto insurance companies and the legions of parasites and pettifoggers who feed off that particular mess. And if this turd of a healthcare bill passes I'm leaving. I'd go to Canada, which has a far more equitable system that this place but I despise cold. For me, that leaves down under. If that makes me a socialist, then so be it. Greg G. |
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Rick Samuel said:
When Australia first nationalised medical care in 1975, I was vehemently opposed to it. Saw it as government interference, creeping socialism and Question: Is your goverment able to stand on it's own feet, or is it special intersts groups who do the talking, as in the US? Good question, and I think we all know the answer to that one... Greg G. |
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"Axel Grease" wrote in message
net... "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message . au... "Mark & Juanita" wrote in message m... When Australia first nationalised medical care in 1975, I was vehemently opposed to it. Saw it as government interference, creeping socialism and denying freedom of choice. I held that view for many years. Gradually, as I saw it get through some teething troubles and changes, some of which were caused by changes of government it evolved into a workable system. snip Everyone, whether privately insured or not, gets hospital treatment at no cost. No cost? Why do you not count your taxes which pay for it? My bad. I should have phrased that better. Perhaps if I had said no direct charge to the individual being treated? Federal Government spending, is of course, funded by the taxpayer. Currently, Australia spends approx 9% of GDP on medical care. I believe the US currently spends something like 15% of GDP. Yet Australians reportedly live on average live 4 years longer than the average US citizen. Got to be food for thought in that. Many variables ae possible there. One might be American hypocondria. In some instances, staying away from doctors can be a healthier choice than being treated often. 99,000 Americans die every year from MRSA. Most catch it in hospitals and clinics during treatment for other problems. We do not however, have a national dental care system, which puts dental treatment out of reach of many people. My insurance covers part of the cost, but disadvantaged people miss out. diggerop Thanks for explaining the dental care situation. How are optical care and glasses paid for? Giving benefit of the doubt, let's presume that eye surgery is counted like any other surgery and paid for in the publicly funded system supported by tax money. Axel I'm not well versed in the optical care side, despite wearing prescription glasses myself. I believe those on social security incur no direct cost, - the rest of us do. Costs don't seem very high to me, they may well be subsidised in part by the government, but I am just guessing. In addition, in my case, my health fund reimbursed me most of the cost. diggerop |
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"Rick Samuel" wrote in message
... Question: Is your goverment able to stand on it's own feet, or is it special intersts groups who do the talking, as in the US? Without doubt, governments on both sides of the political spectrum here are vulnerable to the pressures of special interest groups. They all want to buy votes, regardless of where they come from. Fortunately, the right tends to be less affected by the loony left and bleeding hearts, of which there are a significant number in this country. Unfortunately, we currently have a socialist Federal government. Ain't democracy wonderful? I have some personal experience of politics; - my grandfather was a federal politician and government minister for many years. (He described politics as the most dishonest profession in the world,) and at one stage I was myself directly involved in politics. I found the lies, duplicity and self-serving manipulation that formed a large part of the process (on both sides,) to be something that I was too idealistic to deal with effectively. Now I'm just an curmudgeonly old armchair critic. : ) diggerop |
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LDosser said:
"Greg G." wrote: Here is an interesting set of charts for your edification: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...20addition.pdf And a recent interesting story about IBM privatization v. "socialism": http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...tract+with+IBM Unfortunately, it is in regards to welfare services, but it could be there is a lesson in there somewhere... What? That properly run, government can be as or more efficient at providing services than private for profit industry. Our problem is the "properly run" and efficient part... Greg G. |
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"diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Attempting to describe my political outlook from what I wrote amounts to blind, arrogant stupidity on your part. (If that sounds a little strong to you, I do admit to, but refuse to apologise for, an aggressive personality.) OK, let me take another guess. You have no sense of humor either. If you can't take a little ribbing on USENET, you are rather thin skinned. |
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"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
... "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Attempting to describe my political outlook from what I wrote amounts to blind, arrogant stupidity on your part. (If that sounds a little strong to you, I do admit to, but refuse to apologise for, an aggressive personality.) OK, let me take another guess. You have no sense of humor either. If you can't take a little ribbing on USENET, you are rather thin skinned. Heh. There are certainly those who would agree with that assessment. My wife for one. But then, the only opinion that really matters is mine, when it's all said and done. ; ) diggerop |
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J. Clarke said:
Greg G. wrote: And a recent interesting story about IBM privatization v. "socialism": http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...tract+with+IBM Unfortunately, it is in regards to welfare services, but it could be there is a lesson in there somewhere... Business is not designed to give away money--the failed concept is that you can help people by giving them money without also giving them incentives to work and the skills necessary to obtain work (which are different from the skills necessary to _do_ work). Nonsense. A properly run business should be able to excel at any task assigned - whether manufacturing or disbursement of funds and services. If not, it should fail. In this case, IBM failed to meet the standards of even a reputedly grossly ineffective government entity. My point was not about welfare, but about the efficiency and effectiveness of government vs. private enterprise. I'm not about to defend the current state of affairs with regards to the dirt bags in public office, nor the assortment of profiteering corporations and their drooling stockholders who do no work at all, short of counting their returns on investment. Simply pointing out a single recent case where privatization didn't work - and there are plenty more. Privatized prisons and parole services have many in law enforcement and justice up in arms. Companies made big promises, but have utterly failed to meet either performance objectives or efficiency goals. Most consider the move a huge mistake. The government was considered inefficient, but the private companies have turned out to be, as many expected, profiteers whose primary objective was to extort money under the color of law while providing no services in the public interest. In other words, they proved even worse than big, bad government. As for the welfare aspect, I don't disagree with your point. But where are you going to employ them? Without jobs people cannot work, without cash flow, employers cannot hire. The jobs that once provided income to the poor and uneducated, such as textiles, steel, and much manufacturing, have been shipped offshore. Even agriculture has been taken over by AgriCorp and machinery. NAFTA killed off Mexican farmers ability to profit from farming and resulted in a huge influx of immigrant workers looking for income. So they end up being exploited at meat packing plants and farms thereby pushing even more US citizens out of jobs they would otherwise hate, but do to make a living. So what do you propose the unemployed do for a living? The right opposes abortion, and you're never going to stop people from having sex, so the problem simply grows and grows. Nothing productive is done on any front. All I see and hear is more rhetoric, vitriol and failed ideology. The stupid breed en masse and the right screams, "But what about the unborn children?" Bull****. These morons put more thought into breeding dogs and horses than they do bettering the human race. Personally, if some idiot wants to speed at 110 MPH and not wear a seat belt while talking on a freaking cell phone, I say let him. It's Darwin in action - they are unwittingly saving us from ourselves. Kids should be protected from ignorance, adults, not so much. Those that have want even more, and those that have nothing harbor no hope of extricating themselves from the miserable lives they lead. To the newly born this is no longer the land of opportunity, but a land of corporate fuel screws and impoverished consumers of imported crap. Unless, of course, you are born into the aristocracy/plutocracy. Even the few that break out of poverty through education are ultimately saddled with debt which takes 20+ years to pay off - if then, in this present economic situation. We can spend a real 32% of the Federal budget on military profiteers plus another 18% on the debt from past military spending but we shun science, education and birth control. We then export jobs and factories en masse to a communist nation while amassing trillion dollar trade deficits. Smart! I suppose the short of it is, we're f'd. The US is a failure. Happy? Greg G. |
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"J. Clarke" wrote in message ... You were robbed. Give http://www.zennioptical.com a try. If they don't work for you you haven't spent much, if they do you end up with a spare pair. No trifocals though, bifocal or progressive. If you don't have prescription sunglasses it might be an excuse to pick up a pair. I was all set to call "bull****" on your claim John, until I looked at the site. Might be worth trying this site out. I've always been ****ed at the price gouging that goes on with a pair of new glasses. -- -Mike- |
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:39:13 -0500, "Axel Grease"
wrote: "diggerop" toobusy@themoment wrote in message Currently, Australia spends approx 9% of GDP on medical care. I believe the US currently spends something like 15% of GDP. No cost? Why do you not count your taxes which pay for it? You quoted it yourself. It's GDP and those are taxes.Obviously he was referring some something like noticeable monthly out of pocket expenses. In other words, if you are a citizen buy essentially making zero income, you can still get needed medical treatment. |
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:47:35 -0600, dpb wrote:
I'd love to think whatever they end up doing will have such a miraculous happy ending but can't see how it can possibly be w/ the cost models they're making up to support it and the requirements on insurance companies. It's back to the same old question. How do you think other countries are doing it and surviving? Granted populations sizes are going to be different, but if you consider it to be funded by a certain portion of GDP, then the model should operate pretty much the same way. |
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diggerop wrote:
Currently, Australia spends approx 9% of GDP on medical care. I believe the US currently spends something like 15% of GDP. Yet Australians reportedly live on average live 4 years longer than the average US citizen. Got to be food for thought in that. More like food for further investigation. True, we spend more of GDP on health care than most other countries. That's possibly because we can. We probably spend more on pay-TV, eating out, earth shoes, and other non-critical items than other countries simply because we can. Some "health care" in the U.S. is discretionary (think breast implants - although I did see a recent article complaining that Australia was having to import 1000cc implants from the U.S. because of a severe in-country shortage...). Life expectancy is also a poor metric for the efficacy of health care. For example, most countries count severly premature infant deaths as "stillborn" (such as France). In the U.S., Herculean efforts are expended on these unfortunate children. Regrettably, many don't make it and skew the "life expectancy" tables downward. A better metric for health care may very well be life expectancy after a diagnosis. In this category, the U.S. leads. For example, life expectancy of five years or more after diagnosis of breast cancer is 95% in the U.S. vs. 56% in the U.K. This MAY be due to greater diagnostic capability in the U.S. than in other places. In that regard, consider: there are more MRI machines in my town than in all of Canada. Again, we have a greater diagnostic infrastructure, probably, because we can afford it. Australian-rules football is plenty tough (I think knives are limited to 6" or less). But have you ever heard of an MRI machine at an Australian stadium? Several of our pansy-football stadiums have a machine readily available. |
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On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:16:00 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote: I understand that the regular place might not be there later, but they weren't there for me when I needed them anyway, so screw 'em. I used to go to the same place for years and years. Every time I replaced my glasses (about every two years), I'd see the price climb a few notches. Though, "ok that's to be expected". Then I noticed that as well as the prices increasing a little bit, the percentage of increase was getting bigger too, so I started looking around at the burgeoning proliferation of optometrists. I'm now buying my glasses elsewhere for more than 50% less and they come with satisfaction warranties. Replaced my most recent pair that way. I'm seeing fine and starting a little more to shop around instead of just going which where I've had the best service. Best service shopping is great, but when it starts costing more than what I think is fair, then it's time to amend my shopping methods. |
O/T: One Down
On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:58:13 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote: OK, let me take another guess. You have no sense of humor either. If you can't take a little ribbing on USENET, you are rather thin skinned. Hell Ed. You've got to admit that accusing any number of Americans as being socialist in nature is tantamount to committing a declaration of war, even if you were ribbing them. To some people, the word is a volatile, disgusting tool of the damned. There's no room for humour there. Diggerop may not be American, but he might harbor some of those same feelings about socialism. |
O/T: One Down
On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 07:25:40 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote: Australian-rules football is plenty tough (I think knives are limited to 6" or less). But have you ever heard of an MRI machine at an Australian stadium? Several of our pansy-football stadiums have a machine readily available. Not sure what your point is about the MRI machine, but again, it could only be because they can afford it. If it's for saving life, then more people would be saved by donating that MRI machine to some local medical clinic. Naturally the question then becomes, who has the greatest right to life ~ the football player or the pregnant mother who has recently experienced a car accident. Yes, there's certainly more money involved with the football player, but there' also more humanity involved with the pregnant mother. Unfortunately, "humanity" doesn't count for much, at least not as much as hoped. |
O/T: One Down
"HeyBub" wrote in message
... diggerop wrote: Currently, Australia spends approx 9% of GDP on medical care. I believe the US currently spends something like 15% of GDP. Yet Australians reportedly live on average live 4 years longer than the average US citizen. Got to be food for thought in that. More like food for further investigation. True, we spend more of GDP on health care than most other countries. That's possibly because we can. We probably spend more on pay-TV, eating out, earth shoes, and other non-critical items than other countries simply because we can. Some "health care" in the U.S. is discretionary (think breast implants - although I did see a recent article complaining that Australia was having to import 1000cc implants from the U.S. because of a severe in-country shortage...). Life expectancy is also a poor metric for the efficacy of health care. For example, most countries count severly premature infant deaths as "stillborn" (such as France). In the U.S., Herculean efforts are expended on these unfortunate children. Regrettably, many don't make it and skew the "life expectancy" tables downward. I'm not sure why I bother, however; -Think about what you are saying. If there are sufficient premature infant deaths to skew life expectancy results for a nation the size of the US, then your standards of medical care, (despite the herculean efforts you alluded to,) must rank as some of the most appalling and inept in the world. A better metric for health care may very well be life expectancy after a diagnosis. In this category, the U.S. leads. For example, life expectancy of five years or more after diagnosis of breast cancer is 95% in the U.S. vs. 56% in the U.K. This MAY be due to greater diagnostic capability in the U.S. than in other places. In that regard, consider: there are more MRI machines in my town than in all of Canada. Again, we have a greater diagnostic infrastructure, probably, because we can afford it. You posted the same grossly out of date statistics on breast cancer in another thread some time ago. I refuted them then and gave you cites. It's interesting to me that you and I probably have the same political leanings, however, your propensity to post out of date, unsubstantiated, ill thought out rubbish simply makes you an easy target for the left. ..... I'm beginning to feel sorry for you, and that can't be good. Australian-rules football is plenty tough (I think knives are limited to 6" or less). But have you ever heard of an MRI machine at an Australian stadium? Several of our pansy-football stadiums have a machine readily available. Six inches? ......... That's not a knife! : ) diggerop |
O/T: One Down
wrote in message
... On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:58:13 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: OK, let me take another guess. You have no sense of humor either. If you can't take a little ribbing on USENET, you are rather thin skinned. Hell Ed. You've got to admit that accusing any number of Americans as being socialist in nature is tantamount to committing a declaration of war, even if you were ribbing them. To some people, the word is a volatile, disgusting tool of the damned. There's no room for humour there. Diggerop may not be American, but he might harbor some of those same feelings about socialism. Heh. Now if he'd labeled me a thief or murderer, shyster or philanderer, (something with redeemable qualities,) I'd maybe have let it pass. But a *Socialist*? Dagnabbit man, that's the lowest form of life on the planet. ; ) diggerop |
O/T: One Down
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O/T: One Down
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:41:08 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:
"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message ... Now run and hide - the rampant right is coming after you! Such a shame that you are so insecure as to have to lob one over the wall at those you fear so greatly. You're funny :-). -- Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw |
O/T: One Down
On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 05:49:23 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:
You're spot on, too, Dop. The same goes for our country Up Over. I think that the best thing the country could do would be to go out on the street and yank 525 folks from the general population (any person who did -not- want to be a politician) and replace those thieving *******s now elected to CONgress. I've often suggested drawing two or three names for each position and giving them 30 days to explain their views - then hold the election. -- Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw |
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