I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message ...
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

It goes both ways depending upon the desired results.

If one does not get any glue into the M&T area, the resultant joint will be just as strong as it would have been had the glue-up been done first.

Were one to use buffering block between the clamps and the project, "clamping scratches" would be minimized if not eliminated.

If one does not mind the M&T joint being noticeable to the touch, however miniscule the joint separation might be, because the finish was done first; then finish first. This might be considered part of the aesthetics of the joint.

My preference is glue first because I like the feel of a smooth joint.

P D Q

GarageWoodworks wrote:

I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

I pre-finish my projects. Before applying the finish, I mask off all
joints and glue-up areas. I don't worry about the shoulder joint where the
glue would be end-grain to side grain, just the mortises and tenons
themselves. I don't do this with dovetailed drawers, but do pre-scrape the
inside in order to make applying the finish easier. I also pre-finish the
drawer bottoms -- it keeps glue from sticking to them.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

I'll pretty much echo Mark & Juanita's response.

Where it makes sense and is possible, I mask off and finish prior to
glue up.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

GarageWoodworks wrote:
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

A compromise you might want to consider is to prefinish the interior and
finish the exterior after assembly. Mask off any areas that will be glued.

"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message
...
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/


I often sand and prestain certain parts before assembly, in particular
cabinet door panels. With wood movement and seasonal shrinkage door panels
can reveal unstained areas.

On Aug 4, 8:33*am, "Leon" wrote:
"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message

...

I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

I often sand and prestain certain parts before assembly, in particular
cabinet door panels. *With wood movement and seasonal shrinkage door panels
can reveal unstained areas.

That's kind of what I havebeen doing with panels only. I will
prefinish panels for exactly the reasons you stated.

On Aug 4, 12:49*am, Mark & Juanita wrote:
GarageWoodworks wrote:
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

* I pre-finish my projects. *Before applying the finish, I mask off all
joints and glue-up areas. *I don't worry about the shoulder joint where the
glue would be end-grain to side grain, just the mortises and tenons
themselves. *I don't do this with dovetailed drawers, but do pre-scrape the
inside in order to make applying the finish easier. *I also pre-finish the
drawer bottoms -- it keeps glue from sticking to them.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

I'm going to give this a try next time. I realize that there isn't
much strength from the shoulder (end grain) to long grain, but it
still bugs me knowing i'm making it even weaker. Silly, I know.

On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 20:57:09 -0700, GarageWoodworks wrote:

I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue clean
up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1) finish
will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish surrounding a
mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the preapplied finish. Take
the poll.


I prefinish unless I'm going to do more machining after assembly. I even
wax the finish. That makes any glue squeeze-out easily removable.

As far as scratching, I mostly use bar clamps with rubber pads and don't
clamp any harder than required. No problem with the finish there. I'm
more likely to get a scratch from moving the piece around on my bench -
but a clean benchtop and the wax minimizes that problem.

Finally, I mostly use shellac as a finish and any scratches are easily
fixed.

BTW, I just followed my normal procedures on a blanket chest - worked
fine.





--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

There is just about zero strength in any end grain to face grain
gluing. The face to face of the tenon to mortise is everything you
need for the joint, plus a pin if possible. In my opinion any glue
that is not on the tenon, inside the mortise, is squeeze out. In fact,
many people back bevel the shoulders at the tenon so you have a pocket
to catch the squeeze out from the mortise and so you have a tight fit
at the face of the joint, not inhibited by any contact of the
shoulders to the face of the mortised piece.

On Aug 4, 7:27*am, GarageWoodworks
wrote:
On Aug 4, 12:49*am, Mark & Juanita wrote:





GarageWoodworks wrote:
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

* I pre-finish my projects. *Before applying the finish, I mask off all
joints and glue-up areas. *I don't worry about the shoulder joint where the
glue would be end-grain to side grain, just the mortises and tenons
themselves. *I don't do this with dovetailed drawers, but do pre-scrape the
inside in order to make applying the finish easier. *I also pre-finish the
drawer bottoms -- it keeps glue from sticking to them.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

I'm going to give this a try next time. I realize that there isn't
much strength from the shoulder (end grain) to long grain, but it
still bugs me knowing i'm making it even weaker. Silly, I know.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I prefinish only the insides and bottoms of boxes 'cause I find it
difficult to get a smooth finish leaning over into the box after glue
up. I pre-finish panels to avoid un-finished areas showing up when the
wood moves. Obviously, masking off glue surfaces is required.
Especially with shellac, you need to be careful to get a really good
bond at the edge of the masking tape as shellac will wick under the
tape quicker than anything else I've found.

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:57:09 -0700 (PDT), GarageWoodworks
wrote:

I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

On Aug 4, 10:32*am, Tom B wrote:
I prefinish only the insides and bottoms of boxes 'cause I find it
difficult to get a smooth finish leaning over into the box after glue
up. I pre-finish panels to avoid un-finished areas showing up when the
wood moves. Obviously, masking off glue surfaces is required.
Especially with shellac, you need to be careful to get a really good
bond at the edge of the masking tape as shellac will wick under the
tape quicker than anything else I've found.

*On Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:57:09 -0700 (PDT), GarageWoodworks



wrote:
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I stain prior to assy because the glue squeeze out will affect stain
penetration. Also may do first coat of oil-urethane finish on
interior areas for protection, with proper protection of the actual
glue joint area, and subsequent coats after assembly.

Hope this helps.....

Depends on the project. For example, we have been building a new
house and have taken on nearly all of the finish work ourselves.
Nearly all trim including craftsman door headers, tub surround parts,
etc were stained in the garage shop prior to installations, then final
finish after installation. Some of the parts, including base and
window trim were stained and poly'ed in the shop prior to
installation. However, most parts don't get final finish until
installed.

Some stuff that requires careful fit and attachment are stained and
finished in place. My personal preference would have been to assemble
or attach a lot of the stuff in place; then stain and finish. But
when you are working next to painted walls and finished hardwood
flooring, that isn't always practical.

Gluing requirements always have to be in the back of you mind when
planning.

When I do normal projects such as small cabinets, rocking horses,
quilt stands, etc.; I usually stain the final project at one time
including side-assemblies such as drawers.

Ron.

On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 21:49:08 -0700, the infamous Mark & Juanita
scrawled the following:

GarageWoodworks wrote:

I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

I pre-finish my projects. Before applying the finish, I mask off all
joints and glue-up areas. I don't worry about the shoulder joint where the
glue would be end-grain to side grain, just the mortises and tenons
themselves. I don't do this with dovetailed drawers, but do pre-scrape the
inside in order to make applying the finish easier. I also pre-finish the
drawer bottoms -- it keeps glue from sticking to them.

What, just one hand-rubbed coat of Waterlox, or something thicker?
Anything should make a big difference with glue.

P.S: You finish the inside of drawers?

--
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free
than Christianity has made them good." --H. L. Mencken
---

On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 07:33:18 -0500, the infamous "Leon"
scrawled the following:


"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message
...
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/


I often sand and prestain certain parts before assembly, in particular
cabinet door panels. With wood movement and seasonal shrinkage door panels
can reveal unstained areas.

Ohmigod! I came back too soon. You guys are still using the 'S'
word!

Shameful. Just shameful. I bet I'll see the 'P' word soon, too.

--
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free
than Christianity has made them good." --H. L. Mencken
---

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 21:49:08 -0700, the infamous Mark & Juanita
scrawled the following:

GarageWoodworks wrote:

I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

I pre-finish my projects. Before applying the finish, I mask off all
joints and glue-up areas. I don't worry about the shoulder joint where
the glue would be end-grain to side grain, just the mortises and tenons
themselves. I don't do this with dovetailed drawers, but do pre-scrape
the
inside in order to make applying the finish easier. I also pre-finish the
drawer bottoms -- it keeps glue from sticking to them.

What, just one hand-rubbed coat of Waterlox, or something thicker?
Anything should make a big difference with glue.


I usually use an oil-based finish to pop grain and then top-coat with
wipe-on poly followed by two coats of wax -- same finish schedule as the
rest of the project. Note -- that said wipe-on poly, not the thick
plasticy-looking stuff, that IIRC, you had little use for. I've found
Watco wipe-on to provide a good durable top coat that doesn't have that
plastic appearance.

P.S: You finish the inside of drawers?


Umm, yeah, doesn't everybody?




--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 07:33:18 -0500, the infamous "Leon"
scrawled the following:


"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message
...
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/


I often sand and prestain certain parts before assembly, in particular
cabinet door panels. With wood movement and seasonal shrinkage door
panels can reveal unstained areas.

Ohmigod! I came back too soon. You guys are still using the 'S'
word!

Shameful. Just shameful. I bet I'll see the 'P' word soon, too.


Then don't look at the response to your previous response to one of my
postings.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 07:33:18 -0500, the infamous "Leon"
scrawled the following:

"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message
...
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

I often sand and prestain certain parts before assembly, in particular
cabinet door panels. With wood movement and seasonal shrinkage door panels
can reveal unstained areas.

Ohmigod! I came back too soon. You guys are still using the 'S'
word!

Shameful. Just shameful. I bet I'll see the 'P' word soon, too.

Now that was a memory flogger. IIRC your favorite finish word was
"polyurinestain". ?
time traveler,
jo4hn

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:47:18 -0700, the infamous jo4hn
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 07:33:18 -0500, the infamous "Leon"
scrawled the following:

"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message
...
I assembled my latest project (a blanket chest) yesturday and I
contemplated prefinishing it before glue-up. This should make glue
clean up a lot easier. I can see two potential problems with this: 1)
finish will weaken any tenon shoulder glue adhesion (finish
surrounding a mortise). 2) the act of clamping can scratch the
preapplied finish. Take the poll.

http://garagewoodworks.com/gw_blog/

I often sand and prestain certain parts before assembly, in particular
cabinet door panels. With wood movement and seasonal shrinkage door panels
can reveal unstained areas.

Ohmigod! I came back too soon. You guys are still using the 'S'
word!

Shameful. Just shameful. I bet I'll see the 'P' word soon, too.

Now that was a memory flogger. IIRC your favorite finish word was
"polyurinestain". ?

Erm, -not- "favorite finish", but favorite nick for that P stuff.
Ayup, you got it in one, jo4hn.

---
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight
very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands.
It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
--John Wayne (1907 - 1979)