I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be awfully
nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by checking, let's
say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or sliding miter. Or
verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?) that a cabinet side is
really square with the bottom. I'm trying to really focus on accuracy these
days in my woodworking. I'm finding that it sure pays off in the long run
over the course of a project, to spend the extra time making sure your
setups are right on, and taking the extra time to verify at each operation.

Problem is, can I justify $60-100 for a precision square. Not a rich man
here - that's not exactly rounding error money for me.

What do you guys do ? Should I just grab my framing square and forget
spending the bucks ?

Jim In FL

On 2009-05-11, Jim In FL wrote:

Problem is, can I justify $60-100 for a precision square. Not a rich man
here......

I don't know where you've been shopping, but a machinist/engineer square can
be had for under $20. Besides, you're paying for a level of accuracy far
outside what you'll ever be able to attain in wood. You'd be better off
with a good machinist combination square, which is still more accurate
than you need. More useful, too.

Check this out:

http://tinyurl.com/p8cc7w

nb

Jim In FL wrote:

Problem is, can I justify $60-100 for a precision square. Not a rich
man here - that's not exactly rounding error money for me.

What do you guys do ? Should I just grab my framing square and forget
spending the bucks ?

I have both, and a couple of (square) corner cut-offs from Baltic birch
projects. Most frequently I use one of the plywood corners. Next most
frequently I use the framing square. The machinist's square usually
comes out when I need the centering head or the protractor.

I also have a set of those aluminum angle square corner brackets that I
like to use to clamp things square during glue-ups.

If budget is a major factor, and if your framing square really is
square, then I'd suggest saving your money for something you find you
can't do without.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Jim In FL" wrote:

I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square.

snip

Problem is, can I justify $60-100 for a precision square.

For me that would be over kill when working with wood.

A couple of drafting triangles (8"-45 & 10"-30/60), along with a
couple of plywood factory corners can do wonders.

Don't forget the 3-4-5 triangle method of doing layouts requiring 90
degree right angles.

Before you spend any money, go to the library and get Fred Bingham's
book, "Practical Yacht Joinery" and read the section about measuring
tools.

Very enlightening.

Have fun.

Lew

"Upscale" wrote

"notbob" wrote in message
I don't know where you've been shopping, but a machinist/engineer square
can
be had for under $20. Besides, you're paying for a level of accuracy far
outside what you'll ever be able to attain in wood. You'd be better off
with a good machinist combination square, which is still more accurate
than you need. More useful, too.

Agreed. I use the 10" stainless steel square from Lee Valley and it fills
most of my needs.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,42936,42941


You can get small machinist squares for layout at many industrial and tool
stores. I bought mine at Enco. The small ones are perfect for checking the
accuracy of saw setups.

On May 11, 12:35*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
You can get small machinist squares for layout at many industrial and tool
stores. I bought mine at Enco. *The small ones are perfect for checking
the
accuracy of saw setups.

It's a trifle pricy, but I was thinking of buying one of the digital "tilt
boxes" for measuring my blade angle. It would be convenient on those angle
cuts. Of course, if all I was cutting was 90° and 45° cuts then it would be
cheaper and easier to pick up a 45° square.http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,240,41064

This part in the description of that tilt box is a bit odd.
"It has a range of 90° left or right and a resolution of 0.05°
(accurate to 0.2°)."

I guess that's like having a car with a speedometer that goes to 120
and the car tops out at 85. Or a woman saying she feels 25 and she's
talking about the age of her breast implants.

R

"Jim In FL" wrote in message
ng.com...
I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be awfully
nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by checking,
let's say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or sliding miter.
Or verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?) that a cabinet side
is really square with the bottom. I'm trying to really focus on accuracy
these days in my woodworking. I'm finding that it sure pays off in the
long run over the course of a project, to spend the extra time making sure
your setups are right on, and taking the extra time to verify at each
operation.

Problem is, can I justify $60-100 for a precision square. Not a rich man
here - that's not exactly rounding error money for me.

What do you guys do ? Should I just grab my framing square and forget
spending the bucks ?

Jim In FL

More and more these days I use take fewer measurements with the tape measure
and or rule and or a square. The square that I trust are the relatively
cheap aluminum "Speed Squares". They are heavy duty and are not likely to
ever be knocked out or whack. I find that setting up my equipment correctly
and accurately results in pieces going together such that rechecking square
is non necessary. If you make a square cut, pieces are going to fit
squarely.

On May 11, 12:56*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

This part in the description of that tilt box is a bit odd.
"It has a range of 90° left or right and a resolution of 0.05°
(accurate to 0.2°)."

It is kind of confusing. I took the resolution of 0.05° to refer to the
sharpness of the LCD and left it at that. If that's what it's meant to refer
to it might be useful in outside sunny conditions. I've seen LCD readouts
that you have to shadow and almost cup with your hand before you can make
them out.

They're talking about the readout - it reads to two decimal points,
but the accuracy is only good to one. That gives a false sense of
accuracy. No way in hell am I paying $39.95 for that. If it was
$39.9 - maybe.

R

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
You can get small machinist squares for layout at many industrial and
tool
stores. I bought mine at Enco. The small ones are perfect for checking
the
accuracy of saw setups.

It's a trifle pricy, but I was thinking of buying one of the digital "tilt
boxes" for measuring my blade angle. It would be convenient on those angle
cuts. Of course, if all I was cutting was 90° and 45° cuts then it would
be
cheaper and easier to pick up a 45° square.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,240,41064



I have a tilt box, I use it more and more each day. I was adding an outer
side platform to a steel tool stand/table. Because the legs on the stand
were angled out 5 degrees I had to cut the bracing at a 5 degree angle so
that the surface would be parallel to the table top plane. I put the tilt
box on the table top, zeroed it, and then stuck it to the leg and got an 85
degree reading. The nice thing is that if firs into tight spots.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"RicodJour" wrote in message
This part in the description of that tilt box is a bit odd.
"It has a range of 90° left or right and a resolution of 0.05°
(accurate to 0.2°)."

It is kind of confusing. I took the resolution of 0.05° to refer to the
sharpness of the LCD and left it at that. If that's what it's meant to
refer
to it might be useful in outside sunny conditions. I've seen LCD readouts
that you have to shadow and almost cup with your hand before you can make
them out.



The tilt box measures to one digit right of decimal point and the display is
digital, not analog. There fore it displays accuracy to within .05
degrees.

"notbob" wrote in message
I don't know where you've been shopping, but a machinist/engineer square
can
be had for under $20. Besides, you're paying for a level of accuracy far
outside what you'll ever be able to attain in wood. You'd be better off
with a good machinist combination square, which is still more accurate
than you need. More useful, too.

Agreed. I use the 10" stainless steel square from Lee Valley and it fills
most of my needs.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,42936,42941

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
You can get small machinist squares for layout at many industrial and tool
stores. I bought mine at Enco. The small ones are perfect for checking
the
accuracy of saw setups.

It's a trifle pricy, but I was thinking of buying one of the digital "tilt
boxes" for measuring my blade angle. It would be convenient on those angle
cuts. Of course, if all I was cutting was 90° and 45° cuts then it would be
cheaper and easier to pick up a 45° square.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,240,41064

Jim In FL wrote:
I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be
awfully nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by
checking, let's say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or
sliding miter. Or verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?)
that a cabinet side is really square with the bottom. I'm trying to
really focus on accuracy these days in my woodworking. I'm finding
that it sure pays off in the long run over the course of a project,
to spend the extra time making sure your setups are right on, and
taking the extra time to verify at each operation.

Problem is, can I justify $60-100 for a precision square. Not a rich
man here - that's not exactly rounding error money for me.

What do you guys do ? Should I just grab my framing square and forget
spending the bucks ?

Some things to look at:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/H2696
http://www.grizzly.com/products/H2697
http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CG...PMAKA=86400454

"RicodJour" wrote in message
This part in the description of that tilt box is a bit odd.
"It has a range of 90° left or right and a resolution of 0.05°
(accurate to 0.2°)."

It is kind of confusing. I took the resolution of 0.05° to refer to the
sharpness of the LCD and left it at that. If that's what it's meant to refer
to it might be useful in outside sunny conditions. I've seen LCD readouts
that you have to shadow and almost cup with your hand before you can make
them out.

Lee Michaels wrote:
"Upscale" wrote

"notbob" wrote in message
I don't know where you've been shopping, but a machinist/engineer
square can be had for under $20. Besides, you're paying for a
level of accuracy far outside what you'll ever be able to attain in
wood. You'd be better off with a good machinist combination
square, which is still more accurate than you need. More useful,
too.

Agreed. I use the 10" stainless steel square from Lee Valley and it
fills most of my needs.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,42936,42941


You can get small machinist squares for layout at many industrial and
tool stores. I bought mine at Enco. The small ones are perfect for
checking the accuracy of saw setups.

Grizzly has a set for 16 bucks with 2, 3, 4, and 6". The little ones are
more useful than I would have expected.

On 2009-05-11, Upscale wrote:

Tight spots and many angles all in one. All that's left to make them solar
powered like many calculators.

What's left is to make 'em cheaper. Looks like a neat tool, but $40 is way
outta line. As is the case with digital watches, calculators, etc, the case
probably costs more than the electronics. I wonder if Casio has a watch
that will do angles.

nb

Jim In FL wrote:
I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be awfully
nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by checking, let's
say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or sliding miter. Or
verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?) that a cabinet side is
really square with the bottom.

Pay $5 for a large Staedtler plastic drafting triangle. Very accurate,
quite inexpensive.

Chris

"Leon" wrote in message
box on the table top, zeroed it, and then stuck it to the leg and got an
85
degree reading. The nice thing is that if fits into tight spots.

Tight spots and many angles all in one. All that's left to make them solar
powered like many calculators.

On May 11, 1:10*pm, notbob wrote:
On 2009-05-11, Upscale wrote:

Tight spots and many angles all in one. All that's left to make them solar
powered like many calculators.

What's left is to make 'em cheaper. *Looks like a neat tool, but $40 is way
outta line. *As is the case with digital watches, calculators, etc, the case
probably costs more than the electronics. *I wonder if Casio has a watch
that will do angles. *

My iPhone does. http://www.ihandysoft.com/carpenter/

R

On 2009-05-11, Chris Friesen wrote:

Pay $5 for a large Staedtler plastic drafting triangle. Very accurate,
quite inexpensive.

Now, this looks really handy:

http://tinyurl.com/tufo2

I had to find an inside angle and ended up using both my T-bevel and
protractor head on my combo square. This would do it, easily.

I think everyone should have a decent combination square set. The center
finder is reason enough.

http://tinyurl.com/qurmnw

nb

Chris Friesen wrote:
Jim In FL wrote:
I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be
awfully nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by
checking, let's say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or
sliding miter. Or verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?)
that a cabinet side is really square with the bottom.

Pay $5 for a large Staedtler plastic drafting triangle. Very accurate,
quite inexpensive.

Excellent thought.

"notbob" wrote in message
...
On 2009-05-11, Upscale wrote:

Tight spots and many angles all in one. All that's left to make them
solar
powered like many calculators.

What's left is to make 'em cheaper. Looks like a neat tool, but $40 is
way
outta line. As is the case with digital watches, calculators, etc, the
case
probably costs more than the electronics. I wonder if Casio has a watch
that will do angles.

nb


Wixey makes their version of the TiltBox and they often have their goods on
sale. IIRC they were even giving their tilt box away with the purchase of
another of one of their measuring devises.

A year and a half ago my son gave me the Wixey brand and got it for $29.99.
Or you can get one of the Rockler 20% off coupons that come out periodically
and get one there.

On May 11, 4:07*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Jim In FL wrote:
I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be
awfully nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by
checking, let's say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or
sliding miter. *Or verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?)
that a cabinet side is really square with the bottom.

Pay $5 for a large Staedtler plastic drafting triangle. Very accurate,
quite inexpensive.

Excellent thought.

Personally, I bought a 12" Starrett combination square when I was
starting out and haven't regretted it a bit. You can trust it to be
accurate, can take pride in a nice tool, and can be sure you'll use it
almost every time you're in the shop. IMO a good combo square is a
must have in a woodshop.

JP

Upscale wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message
This part in the description of that tilt box is a bit odd.
"It has a range of 90° left or right and a resolution of 0.05°
(accurate to 0.2°)."

It is kind of confusing. I took the resolution of 0.05° to refer to the
sharpness of the LCD and left it at that. If that's what it's meant to refer
to it might be useful in outside sunny conditions. I've seen LCD readouts
that you have to shadow and almost cup with your hand before you can make
them out.


That is like the one climate study I saw. Their conclusion was that
they were seeing differences of 0.1 pH units in there ocean samples and
said it was caused by global warming. They forgot to mention that the
best pH standards are only good to +/- 0.05 pH Units. In other words
what they were attributing to global warming was the variance in the
standards they used to standardize the pH meter.

Chris Friesen wrote:
Jim In FL wrote:
I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be
awfully nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by
checking, let's say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or
sliding miter. Or verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?)
that a cabinet side is really square with the bottom.

Pay $5 for a large Staedtler plastic drafting triangle. Very accurate,
quite inexpensive.

Chris

As stated else where spend the money for a speed square that will have
the same accuracy and not break the first time you drop it on the floor,
set something on it, or a hundred other things that are not suppose to
happen to good tools.

I picked mine up at K Mart to exhaust a gift certificate for Christmas.
It has become my most use shop tool. Marking wood, setting up the
table saw, etc.

Keith Nuttle wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Jim In FL wrote:
I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be
awfully nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by
checking, let's say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or
sliding miter. Or verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?)
that a cabinet side is really square with the bottom.

Pay $5 for a large Staedtler plastic drafting triangle. Very accurate,
quite inexpensive.

Chris

As stated else where spend the money for a speed square that will have
the same accuracy and not break the first time you drop it on the floor,
set something on it, or a hundred other things that are not suppose to
happen to good tools.

I picked mine up at K Mart to exhaust a gift certificate for Christmas.
It has become my most use shop tool. Marking wood, setting up the
table saw, etc.

Nothing wrong with a good speed square, but I hope by responding to the
post about the plastic drafting triangle that you're not suggesting a
person should *not* have such a thing... I have several, and while not
a replacement for a speed square (or a good precision try square or
machinist's square) they are a *very* useful item to have around the
shop. That and a good dial caliper. highjack And for gawd's sake,
if any of you don't have a good dial caliper, GET ONE. This one is a
fine choice:

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...OD&ProdID=1047

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On May 11, 8:18*pm, Jay Pique wrote:
On May 11, 4:07*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

Chris Friesen wrote:
Jim In FL wrote:
I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be
awfully nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by
checking, let's say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or
sliding miter. *Or verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?)
that a cabinet side is really square with the bottom.

Pay $5 for a large Staedtler plastic drafting triangle. Very accurate,
quite inexpensive.

Excellent thought.

Personally, I bought a 12" Starrett combination square when I was
starting out and haven't regretted it a bit. *You can trust it to be
accurate, can take pride in a nice tool, and can be sure you'll use it
almost every time you're in the shop. *IMO a good combo square is a
must have in a woodshop.

JP

Yup, a 16" combo, a vernier caliper and my trusty Bosch digital
protractor. Oh, I also have a few Swanson Speed Squares lying about
the shop.
I find final assembly much easier when all the pieces fit :-)

Steve Turner wrote in
:


Nothing wrong with a good speed square, but I hope by responding to
the post about the plastic drafting triangle that you're not
suggesting a person should *not* have such a thing... I have several,
and while not a replacement for a speed square (or a good precision
try square or machinist's square) they are a *very* useful item to
have around the shop. That and a good dial caliper. highjack And
for gawd's sake, if any of you don't have a good dial caliper, GET
ONE. This one is a fine choice:

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...IEWPROD&ProdID
=1047


I wind up spending several minutes admiring the calipers when at the
local industrial supply place. I've got a good venier caliper, but not a
really nice dial caliper. It's on my birthday present list, though.

Back to squares, my combination square gets a lot of use. The speed
square seems a little rougher and doesn't get as much use.

Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...


And for gawd's sake,
if any of you don't have a good dial caliper, GET ONE. This one is a fine
choice:

Got one. Rarely use it.

"CW" wrote in message
m...

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...


And for gawd's sake,
if any of you don't have a good dial caliper, GET ONE. This one is a
fine choice:

Got one. Rarely use it.


Same here, but it does get used when I'm planing wood.

"CW" wrote in message
m...

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...


And for gawd's sake,
if any of you don't have a good dial caliper, GET ONE. This one is a
fine choice:

Got one. Rarely use it.



I have one and used it a lot before getting my digital one. I use it all
the time now, I especially like checking the depth of holes and slots with
it.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"CW" wrote in message
m...

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...


And for gawd's sake,
if any of you don't have a good dial caliper, GET ONE. This one is
a fine choice:

Got one. Rarely use it.


Same here, but it does get used when I'm planing wood.

Yep.

CW wrote:
"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...

And for gawd's sake,
if any of you don't have a good dial caliper, GET ONE. This one is a fine
choice:

Got one. Rarely use it.

Really... I guess I found other ways to measure things before I got
one, but I don't know how; I'm *constantly* reaching for that thing (or
trying to find it, which reminds me of the "Pencil Principle" - buy
multiples and leave them everywhere). My next door neighbor even went
out and bought one after he spent an afternoon helping me (on one of his
projects) and he saw all the different ways I was using it, and he's not
even a woodworker!

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Same here, but it does get used when I'm planing wood.


Careful, you could go blind. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

I have a machinists 8" square and rely on it for all my tool setup.
I trust this more then the other squares I have. Got burned once
using a speed square that was off a bit (it went into the trash).
Its construction is robust and will not go out of square. Some
have suggested using a framing square but they can go out of
alignment and besides they are rather large and harder to use on a table
saw, jointer etc whereas the smaller machinists square does the job
very well. I have had mine for 10 years and use it all of the
time.

Marty

Jim In FL wrote:
I've been debating purchasing a 12" Machinist's Square. Would be awfully
nice to be able to quickly verify some of my tool setups by checking,
let's say for example, a 12" plus crosscut off my sled or sliding
miter. Or verifying, with some exactness (is that a word ?) that a
cabinet side is really square with the bottom. I'm trying to really
focus on accuracy these days in my woodworking. I'm finding that it
sure pays off in the long run over the course of a project, to spend the
extra time making sure your setups are right on, and taking the extra
time to verify at each operation.

Problem is, can I justify $60-100 for a precision square. Not a rich
man here - that's not exactly rounding error money for me.

What do you guys do ? Should I just grab my framing square and forget
spending the bucks ?

Jim In FL

On 2009-05-13, Marty wrote:
I have a machinists 8" square and rely on it for all my tool setup.
I trust this more then the other squares I have.

A good 6" machinist combi square is my fave tool. Extremely accurate and
very handy.

A good place to look for machinist tools is ebay. Companies in the business
of selling these tools are hanging on at inflated prices or have already
gone under. Amazing deals can be found on ebay. I tried to sell one of my
extra micrometers (brand new) on ebay at 60% off. Didn't even get a nibble.
Since USA no longer makes anything, anymore, machinist tools are just rust
collectors. Can't give 'em away. So sad.

nb

On May 11, 9:35*am, "Upscale" wrote:


It's a trifle pricy, but I was thinking of buying one of the digital "tilt
boxes" for measuring my blade angle. It would be convenient on those angle
cuts.

It doesn't need to be digital. Regular old gravity tilt gizmos are
available,
inexpensive, and don't need batteries.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32584&cat=1,43513

"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On May 11, 9:35 am, "Upscale" wrote:


It's a trifle pricy, but I was thinking of buying one of the digital "tilt
boxes" for measuring my blade angle. It would be convenient on those angle
cuts.

It doesn't need to be digital. Regular old gravity tilt gizmos are
available,
inexpensive, and don't need batteries.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32584&cat=1,43513

True but a digital one is only $11 more at regular price and they can easily
measure tenths of a degree.