Hi, All,


Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this was good for
making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new end tables for the LR,
and they must have drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of slide
rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.


What do people use on a PC to replace the paper, dimension a project,
and produce simple "blueprints"?


Thanks for the help.

Rich.....

wrote:

Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this was good for
making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new end tables for the LR,
and they must have drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of slide
rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.

What do people use on a PC to replace the paper, dimension a project,
and produce simple "blueprints"?

I use DesignCAD for this job - and like SketchUp for sharing a visual model.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

wrote in message
...
Hi, All,


Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this was good for
making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new end tables for the LR,
and they must have drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of slide
rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.

Not really, but it's absolutely great for sketching out ideas. The working
drawings will have to come from somewhere else. You might still need the
mechanical drawing stuff after all, but at least you'll be detailing
something that's fully worked out and designed.

What do people use on a PC to replace the paper, dimension a project,
and produce simple "blueprints"?

I'm lucky enough to have put a youngster through college recently. His
academic licensed Solidworks is still good for a few more months. Since I
don't have SU Pro, it means I rebuild the entire model in SW. Even so,
that's still lightyears better and faster than doing it by hand. Few
projects are complex enough to need detailed part drawings. A few key
dimensions in SU is often plenty. One exception is laying out cuts on a 4x8
sheet. I like to plan out the cuts sitting comfortably at my desk.

"MikeWhy" wrote in
:

wrote in message

groups.com...
Hi, All,


Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this
was good for making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new
end tables for the LR, and they must have drawers,
shelves, pull outs, and probably a string to pull to make
the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't done
mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of
slide rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about
dimensions, overall, and individual parts.

Not really, but it's absolutely great for sketching out
ideas. The working drawings will have to come from
somewhere else. You might still need the mechanical drawing
stuff after all, but at least you'll be detailing something
that's fully worked out and designed.

What do people use on a PC to replace the paper, dimension
a project, and produce simple "blueprints"?

I'm lucky enough to have put a youngster through college
recently. His academic licensed Solidworks is still good
for a few more months. Since I don't have SU Pro, it means
I rebuild the entire model in SW. Even so, that's still
lightyears better and faster than doing it by hand. Few
projects are complex enough to need detailed part drawings.
A few key dimensions in SU is often plenty. One exception
is laying out cuts on a 4x8 sheet. I like to plan out the
cuts sitting comfortably at my desk.



Mike,

I'm curious why you think SketchUp is not up to the task. What
features are missing that make it unacceptable? I've become a
big fan of SketchUp and find it does everything I need. It
does have its quirks but most are easy to work around or are
addressed by a ruby script.

Larry

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"MikeWhy" wrote in
:

wrote in message

groups.com...
Hi, All,


Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this
was good for making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new
end tables for the LR, and they must have drawers,
shelves, pull outs, and probably a string to pull to make
the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't done
mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of
slide rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about
dimensions, overall, and individual parts.

Not really, but it's absolutely great for sketching out
ideas. The working drawings will have to come from
somewhere else. You might still need the mechanical drawing
stuff after all, but at least you'll be detailing something
that's fully worked out and designed.

What do people use on a PC to replace the paper, dimension
a project, and produce simple "blueprints"?

I'm lucky enough to have put a youngster through college
recently. His academic licensed Solidworks is still good
for a few more months. Since I don't have SU Pro, it means
I rebuild the entire model in SW. Even so, that's still
lightyears better and faster than doing it by hand. Few
projects are complex enough to need detailed part drawings.
A few key dimensions in SU is often plenty. One exception
is laying out cuts on a 4x8 sheet. I like to plan out the
cuts sitting comfortably at my desk.



Mike,

I'm curious why you think SketchUp is not up to the task. What
features are missing that make it unacceptable? I've become a
big fan of SketchUp and find it does everything I need. It
does have its quirks but most are easy to work around or are
addressed by a ruby script.

I didn't mean to imply that. I use it and am getting things done, often
quicker and more directly than with other packages (big pricey things: SW,
Inventor, acad). In direct response to the OP's question, though, the free
version has no provisions for 2D working drawings. Other than that, it's
dandy for the blocky shapes we tend to make with wood sticks and sheets. Of
its foibles, the most glaring is its lack of angle dimensions. When you
really want them, rise and slope dimensions are a distant second best. Most
of everything else won't be needed for woodwork -- lofts, blends, that kind
of stuff. Sometimes I miss the sketch based features, feature history, and
part configurations, but that's a workflow issue. Last, a dimensioned 3D
sketch is actually better than a 3-view working drawing sometimes, except
adding dimensions to the component adds them into every model that uses
them. Its strengths in other areas more than makes up for this, however. I
use Sketchup by preference over the other tools now.

"MikeWhy" wrote in
:

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"MikeWhy" wrote in
:

wrote in message

e groups.com...
Hi, All,


Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this
was good for making plans for a project. SWMBO wants
new end tables for the LR, and they must have drawers,
shelves, pull outs, and probably a string to pull to
make the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the
days of slide rules. I can design on paper, but am
worried about dimensions, overall, and individual parts.

Not really, but it's absolutely great for sketching out
ideas. The working drawings will have to come from
somewhere else. You might still need the mechanical
drawing stuff after all, but at least you'll be detailing
something that's fully worked out and designed.

What do people use on a PC to replace the paper,
dimension a project, and produce simple "blueprints"?

I'm lucky enough to have put a youngster through college
recently. His academic licensed Solidworks is still good
for a few more months. Since I don't have SU Pro, it
means I rebuild the entire model in SW. Even so, that's
still lightyears better and faster than doing it by hand.
Few projects are complex enough to need detailed part
drawings. A few key dimensions in SU is often plenty. One
exception is laying out cuts on a 4x8 sheet. I like to
plan out the cuts sitting comfortably at my desk.



Mike,

I'm curious why you think SketchUp is not up to the task.
What features are missing that make it unacceptable? I've
become a big fan of SketchUp and find it does everything I
need. It does have its quirks but most are easy to work
around or are addressed by a ruby script.

I didn't mean to imply that. I use it and am getting things
done, often quicker and more directly than with other
packages (big pricey things: SW, Inventor, acad). In direct
response to the OP's question, though, the free version has
no provisions for 2D working drawings. Other than that,
it's dandy for the blocky shapes we tend to make with wood
sticks and sheets. Of its foibles, the most glaring is its
lack of angle dimensions. When you really want them, rise
and slope dimensions are a distant second best. Most of
everything else won't be needed for woodwork -- lofts,
blends, that kind of stuff. Sometimes I miss the sketch
based features, feature history, and part configurations,
but that's a workflow issue. Last, a dimensioned 3D sketch
is actually better than a 3-view working drawing sometimes,
except adding dimensions to the component adds them into
every model that uses them. Its strengths in other areas
more than makes up for this, however. I use Sketchup by
preference over the other tools now.




Ok, agree with everything. The angle dimensions, or lack
thereof, are most bothersome. You can draw it easily enough,
just can't dimension it. I generally just put a text note in
its place. I was not aware that domensions on a component span
across drawings. Can't you "make unique" and get around that?

It's hard to bitch too much about a piece of *free* software
with the features it has though. I should be happy and
shutup....

Larry

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"MikeWhy" wrote in
:

"Larry" wrote in message
I'm curious why you think SketchUp is not up to the task.
What features are missing that make it unacceptable? I've
become a big fan of SketchUp and find it does everything I
need. It does have its quirks but most are easy to work
around or are addressed by a ruby script.

I didn't mean to imply that. I use it and am getting things
done, often quicker and more directly than with other
packages (big pricey things: SW, Inventor, acad). In direct
response to the OP's question, though, the free version has
no provisions for 2D working drawings. Other than that,
it's dandy for the blocky shapes we tend to make with wood
sticks and sheets. Of its foibles, the most glaring is its
lack of angle dimensions. When you really want them, rise
and slope dimensions are a distant second best. Most of
everything else won't be needed for woodwork -- lofts,
blends, that kind of stuff. Sometimes I miss the sketch
based features, feature history, and part configurations,
but that's a workflow issue. Last, a dimensioned 3D sketch
is actually better than a 3-view working drawing sometimes,
except adding dimensions to the component adds them into
every model that uses them. Its strengths in other areas
more than makes up for this, however. I use Sketchup by
preference over the other tools now.

Ok, agree with everything. The angle dimensions, or lack
thereof, are most bothersome. You can draw it easily enough,
just can't dimension it. I generally just put a text note in
its place. I was not aware that domensions on a component span
across drawings. Can't you "make unique" and get around that?

It's hard to bitch too much about a piece of *free* software
with the features it has though. I should be happy and
shutup....

It's great for what it is.

As for the component dimensions, next time I'll try inserting them into a
new model and annotate them there; consider it as a part drawing. I had in
mind the times I got "smart" and saved out some components to detail them. I
cleaned up the joinery, and added some dimensions and notes. The dimensions
were all over the place in the original model when I reloaded the components
to update with the changes. Still sneaking up on a useful workflow.

wrote


Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this was good for
making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new end tables for the LR,
and they must have drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of slide
rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.

Excellent tool for the task you ask about, and particularly for the price.

And, as long as not mislead by folks with a cursory, at best, knowledge of
the program, which is all you've got thus far.

Take a few minutes and look at some of the excellent woodworkers using SU
for designing complicated woodworking projects:

http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/b...gn-click-build

FWIW, I'm currently in the middle of building a $300K house for a client
that was designed _totally_ with the free version of SU, and that is being
built with assistance from the Pro version only to print out scaled
construction documents, a task not remotely necessary for the vast majority
of woodworking projects.

Will it do the same for you? Absolutely! As long as you take opinions, over
experience, with a grain of salt.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
wrote


Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this was good for
making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new end tables for the LR,
and they must have drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of slide
rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.

Excellent tool for the task you ask about, and particularly for the price.

And, as long as not mislead by folks with a cursory, at best, knowledge of
the program, which is all you've got thus far.

It can become a satifying hobby in itself. For the rest of us, as a user,
his experience won't be much different from what I describe. There are far
better tools for curvy shapes, but I readily agree he won't find them for
the same low SU price. Unless you have a quick fix in mind. Would you take
this moment and lighten the darkness of our ignorance?

"MikeWhy" wrote

the same low SU price. Unless you have a quick fix in mind. Would you take
this moment and lighten the darkness of our ignorance?

Antidote for ignorance previously provided by simply following the link.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"MikeWhy" wrote

the same low SU price. Unless you have a quick fix in mind. Would you
take this moment and lighten the darkness of our ignorance?

Antidote for ignorance previously provided by simply following the link.

I'll settle for angle dimensions for starts. Lathed shapes and intersections
are basic in every tool, and already in my cursory understanding. Surely
there has to be more.

"MikeWhy" wrote
"Swingman" wrote in message
"MikeWhy" wrote

the same low SU price. Unless you have a quick fix in mind. Would you
take this moment and lighten the darkness of our ignorance?

Antidote for ignorance previously provided by simply following the link.

I'll settle for angle dimensions for starts. Lathed shapes and
intersections are basic in every tool, and already in my cursory
understanding. Surely there has to be more.

There is ... but those broadcasting opinions based on "cursory
understanding" will always find something else to quibble about.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
wrote

Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this was good for
making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new end tables for the LR,
and they must have drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of slide
rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.

Excellent tool for the task you ask about, and particularly for the price.

And, as long as not mislead by folks with a cursory, at best, knowledge of
the program, which is all you've got thus far.

Take a few minutes and look at some of the excellent woodworkers using SU
for designing complicated woodworking projects:

http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/b...gn-click-build

FWIW, I'm currently in the middle of building a $300K house for a client
that was designed _totally_ with the free version of SU, and that is being
built with assistance from the Pro version only to print out scaled
construction documents, a task not remotely necessary for the vast majority
of woodworking projects.

Will it do the same for you? Absolutely! As long as you take opinions, over
experience, with a grain of salt.

OTOH, I don't build houses (and only rarely cabinets or tables) and have
so far found SU too often non-intuitive, inadequately-documented, or
just plain unsuited for a significant part of the work I want to do.

That's not a denigration of SU, any more than it would be of my table
saw to point out that my band saw handles curved cuts much better than
my Unisaur.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that the fault lies with me - but if I,
for example, can't find how to accurately draw a smooth non-arc-derived
curve/surface (such as that shown in the photos at the link below) after
a couple days of digging, then I'll use a different tool that does meet
my needs - because I can't let a tool stand in the way of getting the
job done.

My attitude is partly a result of my methods of work, which require that
the finished drawing (the exported dxf/dwg equivalent) be passed to a
computer for automated cutting with fairly high precision. For this type
of work the drawing /is/ the exact template for the part, rather than
something from which I produce a cut list which is then used as a guide
for manually producing parts.

As I said, I /do/ like SU for producing "show and tell" renderings -
yesterday I sent off a fairly spiffy SU-produced JPEG to a cabinet shop
in Finland, and the SU rendering was actually better for my purposes
than a photo. That's hard to not like.

I haven't given up on learning to use SU to produce machinable shapes
like fleur-de-lis, wheat sheaves, ears of corn, bunches of grapes, etc
that I've drawn with other tools for automated routing on cabinet door
panels - but so far I'm not having much success using SU for that type
of work.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/Heat.html

On Jan 17, 9:47*am, Morris Dovey wrote:
Swingman wrote:
wrote

Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this was good for
making plans for a project. *SWMBO wants new end tables for the LR,
and they must have drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt. *Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of slide
rules. *I can design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.

Excellent tool for the task you ask about, and particularly for the price.

And, as long as not mislead by folks with a cursory, at best, knowledge of
the program, which is all you've got thus far.

Take a few minutes and look at some of the excellent woodworkers using SU
for designing complicated woodworking projects:

http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/b...gn-click-build

FWIW, I'm currently in the middle of building a $300K house for a client
that was designed _totally_ with the free version of SU, and that is being
built with assistance from the Pro version only to print out scaled
construction documents, a task not remotely necessary for the vast majority
of woodworking projects.

Will it do the same for you? Absolutely! As long as you take opinions, over
experience, with a grain of salt.

OTOH, I don't build houses (and only rarely cabinets or tables) and have
so far found SU too often non-intuitive, inadequately-documented, or
just plain unsuited for a significant part of the work I want to do.

That's not a denigration of SU, any more than it would be of my table
saw to point out that my band saw handles curved cuts much better than
my Unisaur.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that the fault lies with me - but if I,
for example, can't find how to accurately draw a smooth non-arc-derived
curve/surface (such as that shown in the photos at the link below) after
a couple days of digging, then I'll use a different tool that does meet
my needs - because I can't let a tool stand in the way of getting the
job done.

My attitude is partly a result of my methods of work, which require that
the finished drawing (the exported dxf/dwg equivalent) be passed to a
computer for automated cutting with fairly high precision. For this type
of work the drawing /is/ the exact template for the part, rather than
something from which I produce a cut list which is then used as a guide
for manually producing parts.

As I said, I /do/ like SU for producing "show and tell" renderings -
yesterday I sent off a fairly spiffy SU-produced JPEG to a cabinet shop
in Finland, and the SU rendering was actually better for my purposes
than a photo. That's hard to not like.

I haven't given up on learning to use SU to produce machinable shapes
like fleur-de-lis, wheat sheaves, ears of corn, bunches of grapes, etc
that I've drawn with other tools for automated routing on cabinet door
panels - but so far I'm not having much success using SU for that type
of work.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/Heat.html

That pretty much sums it up for me.
If I didn't have a 20-year back-ground in other software, I would
probably latch onto SU pretty quick.
Now, if I want to make a photorealistic presentation of anything, I
create the model in Vectorworks, and render it in Strata. That gives
me both a pretty picture, and a vector-based file to create toolpaths
for my router.
SU, in comparison, is rather Fisher-Price to me.
To try to draw comparisons between the two classes of software is
silly.

A local contractor wanted to build his dream/retirement house and over
a beer/lunch with a few locals, a local architect sketched out the
house on a placemat. It was instantly accepted as 'The Plan'..and
proved conclusively that the ability of the architect to express
visually what the client wanted had nothing to do with the software.
There is no software package that will compensate for a lack of
vision. Neither does a concept drawn in AutoCAD automatically means it
is a good design.

Lately I have been using Aspire by Vectric almost exclusively. In
fact, I went and bought some Intel-based PC's to run just that
software.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...eur-de-lys.jpg

"Robatoy" wrote

Swingman wrote:
wrote

Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this was good for
making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new end tables for the LR,
and they must have drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of slide
rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.

Excellent tool for the task you ask about, and particularly for the
price.

And, as long as not mislead by folks with a cursory, at best, knowledge
of
the program, which is all you've got thus far.

Take a few minutes and look at some of the excellent woodworkers using
SU
for designing complicated woodworking projects:

http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/b...gn-click-build

SU, in comparison, is rather Fisher-Price to me.
To try to draw comparisons between the two classes of software is
silly.

To pontificate that anyone did so is sillier ... and to not _specifically_
address the OP's question while engaged in such pontificating, sillier
still.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 17, 4:35*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote



Swingman wrote:
wrote

Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if this was good for
making plans for a project. SWMBO wants new end tables for the LR,
and they must have drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt. Anyway, I haven't
done mechanical drawing since Engineering 105 in the days of slide
rules. I can design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.

Excellent tool for the task you ask about, and particularly for the
price.

And, as long as not mislead by folks with a cursory, at best, knowledge
of
the program, which is all you've got thus far.

Take a few minutes and look at some of the excellent woodworkers using
SU
for designing complicated woodworking projects:

http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/b...gn-click-build
SU, in comparison, is rather Fisher-Price to me.
To try to draw comparisons between the two classes of software is
silly.

To pontificate that anyone did so is sillier ... and to not _specifically_
address the OP's question while engaged in such pontificating, sillier
still.


I was supporting what Morris said...and what you said:

On Jan 16, 10:07 pm, "Swingman" wrote:

And, as long as not mislead by folks with a cursory, at best, knowledge of
the program, which is all you've got thus far.

Pontificating? Hardly.

"Swingman" wrote in
:



"Robatoy" wrote

Swingman wrote:
wrote

Just saw a post re Sketchup, and wanted to know if
this was good for making plans for a project. SWMBO
wants new end tables for the LR, and they must have
drawers, shelves, pull outs, and probably a string
to pull to make the flames shoot out of my butt.
Anyway, I haven't done mechanical drawing since
Engineering 105 in the days of slide rules. I can
design on paper, but am worried about dimensions,
overall, and individual parts.

Excellent tool for the task you ask about, and
particularly for the price.

And, as long as not mislead by folks with a cursory, at
best, knowledge of the program, which is all you've got
thus far.

Take a few minutes and look at some of the excellent
woodworkers using SU
for designing complicated woodworking projects:

http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/b...ign-click-buil
d

SU, in comparison, is rather Fisher-Price to me.
To try to draw comparisons between the two classes of
software is silly.

To pontificate that anyone did so is sillier ... and to not
_specifically_ address the OP's question while engaged in
such pontificating, sillier still.


To the original poster...

The best advice is ignore most of this thread and try it for
yourself. Most of us find it does more than what we need even
though it has it quirks. There is no such thing as perfect
software. It's free and will cost nothing but a little time.

There is a good tutorial that can be found at
http://www.srww.com/google-sketchup.htm. While I find that he
does things a little different than the way I would, it's a
*very* good intro to the software and will give you the skills
necessary to form you own opinion.

Good luck,
Larry

"Robatoy" wrote

A local contractor wanted to build his dream/retirement house and over
a beer/lunch with a few locals, a local architect sketched out the
house on a placemat. It was instantly accepted as 'The Plan'..and
proved conclusively that the ability of the architect to express
visually what the client wanted had nothing to do with the software.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wonder how many great ideas/concepts, etc were first drawn up on
placemats, napkins, etc.

I wonder if there is a market for creative placemats and napkins?

"Swingman" wrote in message
...


"MikeWhy" wrote
"Swingman" wrote in message
"MikeWhy" wrote

the same low SU price. Unless you have a quick fix in mind. Would you
take this moment and lighten the darkness of our ignorance?

Antidote for ignorance previously provided by simply following the link.

I'll settle for angle dimensions for starts. Lathed shapes and
intersections are basic in every tool, and already in my cursory
understanding. Surely there has to be more.

There is ... but those broadcasting opinions based on "cursory
understanding" will always find something else to quibble about.

Jeezus. You self styled power users are tiresome. Three posts with no
content other than my obvious ignorance? Here. Let's set it straight. The
only things superficial and cursory here is Sketchup and your obvious
ignorance of CAD systems. SU manages to get real work done, despite its
having only the most primitive profile sketching tools, and the simplest of
sweeps. There. It's said. It's done. No quibbling. SU doesn't pretend to be
anything else. Why do you?

On Jan 17, 7:59*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Robatoy" *wrote

A local contractor wanted to build his dream/retirement house and over
a beer/lunch with a few locals, a local architect sketched out the
house on a placemat. It was instantly accepted as 'The Plan'..and
proved conclusively that the ability of the architect to express
visually what the client wanted had nothing to do with the software.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wonder how many great ideas/concepts, etc were first drawn up on
placemats, napkins, etc.

I wonder if there is a market for creative placemats and napkins?

But for many things, SketchUp simple doesn't have enough.

(From Strata Galleries.)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...atbikeshot.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...tledisplay.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...y/Curtains.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...oy/faucets.jpg

and especially this one created in AutoDesk Inventor and rendered in
Strata

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...trespeaker.jpg

Then again, it is possible to hold up a bank with a toy gun. EG

"MikeWhy" wrote

Jeezus. You self styled power users are tiresome. Three posts with no
content other than my obvious ignorance?

LOL ... your ignorance will continue to have that effect until you quit
showing it, which you seem to do a lot in the short time you've been around
here.

Simple solution for you ... READ the OP's original question, stick to
addressing the question in the woodworking context in which it was asked,
and quit slobbering in the public trough with half-baked, preconceived
opinions based on an incomplete understanding of the program's suitability
for the OP's _specific_ task.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Robatoy" wrote in message
On Jan 17, 7:59 pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

A local contractor wanted to build his dream/retirement house and over
a beer/lunch with a few locals, a local architect sketched out the
house on a placemat. It was instantly accepted as 'The Plan'..and
proved conclusively that the ability of the architect to express
visually what the client wanted had nothing to do with the software.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wonder how many great ideas/concepts, etc were first drawn up on
placemats, napkins, etc.

I wonder if there is a market for creative placemats and napkins?

But for many things, SketchUp simple doesn't have enough.

(From Strata Galleries.)

Gee, Rob ... great woodworking projects there, Bubba.

Should the OP feel the need for "photo realism" when designing his end
table, he can just grab his digital camera and go to the furniture store,
and for a lot less cash and learning curve. g

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Lee Michaels" wrote

"Robatoy" wrote

A local contractor wanted to build his dream/retirement house and over
a beer/lunch with a few locals, a local architect sketched out the
house on a placemat. It was instantly accepted as 'The Plan'..and
proved conclusively that the ability of the architect to express
visually what the client wanted had nothing to do with the software.

Unfortunately, and with some architects, it also has nothing to with what
can be _practically_ built.

Isn't "Falling Water" still doing just that?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"MikeWhy" wrote

Jeezus. You self styled power users are tiresome. Three posts with no
content other than my obvious ignorance?

LOL ... your ignorance will continue to have that effect until you quit
showing it, which you seem to do a lot in the short time you've been
around here.

Simple solution for you ... READ the OP's original question, stick to
addressing the question in the woodworking context in which it was asked,
and quit slobbering in the public trough with half-baked, preconceived
opinions based on an incomplete understanding of the program's suitability
for the OP's _specific_ task.

That's 4 with no content. Did you actually have something to say about SU?

On Jan 18, 9:16*am, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message
On Jan 17, 7:59 pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

A local contractor wanted to build his dream/retirement house and over
a beer/lunch with a few locals, a local architect sketched out the
house on a placemat. It was instantly accepted as 'The Plan'..and
proved conclusively that the ability of the architect to express
visually what the client wanted had nothing to do with the software.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wonder how many great ideas/concepts, etc were first drawn up on
placemats, napkins, etc.

I wonder if there is a market for creative placemats and napkins?

But for many things, SketchUp simple doesn't have enough.

(From Strata Galleries.)

Gee, Rob ... great woodworking projects there, Bubba. *

Should the OP feel the need for "photo realism" when designing his end
table, he can just grab his digital camera and go to the furniture store,
and for a lot less cash and learning curve. g

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

That bike was done from scratch in one program...which sells for
around $ 500.00.
Runs on both PC and Mac.

If a program is capable to accommodate a designer to the level of that
bike, is sure-as-**** should be able to do the same for a frickin'
coffee table. N'est-ce pas?
That is all I wanted to demonstrate... but you knew that.

Robatoy wrote:
If a program is capable to accommodate a designer to the level of that
bike, is sure-as-**** should be able to do the same for a frickin'
coffee table. N'est-ce pas?
That is all I wanted to demonstrate... but you knew that.


It's not Canvas, is it?

I used one of the very early version of Canvas to do all the
"blueprints" on my first house.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Jan 18, 12:46*pm, -MIKE- wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
If a program is capable to accommodate a designer to the level of that
bike, is sure-as-**** should be able to do the same for a frickin'
coffee table. N'est-ce pas?
That is all I wanted to demonstrate... but you knew that.

It's not Canvas, is it?

I used one of the very early version of Canvas to do all the
"blueprints" on my first house.


My venture into Canvas was short-lived, to say the least. ("send us
another $ 200.00 and we'll upgrade you to a version that won't
crash.")
I was well entrenched into MinCAD by then. (The 'Mini' in MiniCAD came
from Mini computers, somewhere between a main-frame and a desk-top, I
suppose.)
MiniCAD is now called Vectorworks and is in all aspects a direct
competitor to AutoCAD. More intuitive, less of a resource hog and very
capable. It has all your bolean functions, NURBS, IOW all you need and
more. For less money.

The files created in Vectorworks,or most other serious CAD
environments, export flawlessly into Strata CX 5.6 for rendering.
Strata has serious capabilities built in to create any kind of shape
you desire. A bit awkward at first, to some, but a pussycat once you
discover their metaphor.

"Robatoy" wrote in message

MiniCAD is now called Vectorworks and is in all aspects a direct
competitor to AutoCAD. More intuitive, less of a resource hog and very
capable. It has all your bolean functions, NURBS, IOW all you need and
more. For less money.

The files created in Vectorworks,or most other serious CAD
environments,

And, if you feel the need, apparently for non "serious" CAD programs also:

http://www.nemetschek.net/news/press...006/050206.php



And, once again, since we're posting pretty pictures:

http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/...p?f=81&t=14993
http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/...p?f=81&t=15103

and before and after:

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5012/ariston1jf4.jpg
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5959/ariston2hs3.jpg

This discussion has been centered around SketchUp and its application for
woodworkers. Most woodworkers would rarely need more than the above ... and
it's certainly available if they do.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Robatoy" wrote
The files created in Vectorworks,or most other serious CAD
environments, export flawlessly into Strata CX 5.6 for rendering.
Strata has serious capabilities built in to create any kind of shape
you desire. A bit awkward at first, to some, but a pussycat once you
discover their metaphor.

You mean like this Sketchup model rendered in Strata 5.5 :

http://www.stratacafe.com/image.asp?...=26525&nonav=1

Serious enough for you, eh Bubba? g,d,&r

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 18, 1:48*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message
MiniCAD is now called Vectorworks and is in all aspects a direct
competitor to AutoCAD. More intuitive, less of a resource hog and very
capable. It has all your bolean functions, NURBS, IOW all you need and
more. For less money.

The files created in Vectorworks,or most other serious CAD
environments,

And, if you feel the need, apparently for non "serious" CAD programs also:

http://www.nemetschek.net/news/press...006/050206.php



Did you even read that article? There has been a plug-in for
Vectorworks to open .skp for a long time.
How does that ability reflect on Vectorworks' overall capabilities?
That's like saying that you can use the air of HF $49.00 compressor to
inflate the tires on a Maybach and therefore it says something about
the HF compressor?

SketchUp is very capable within its limitations. To try to elevate it
into the same sphere as Vectorworks and AutoCAD, Vellum, and such,
shows a total lack of experience with industrial grade software.

Is it a great deal (free) ? Absolutely.
Does it have capabilities that would satisfy most woodworkers?
Absolutely
Is the Pro version worth the money compared to what else is out there?
Probably.
Can Pro supplant the industrial robustness of Vectorworks? Of course
not.
You know that's true, and I know that's true.

What do you think the odds are that Brembo uses Sketchup to design
their brake systems?

"Robatoy" wrote

SketchUp is very capable within its limitations. To try to elevate it
into the same sphere as Vectorworks and AutoCAD, Vellum, and such,
shows a total lack of experience with industrial grade software.

Look again, dude ... thus far you are the one trying to "elevate" anything
"into the same sphere" by your insistence on direct comparison!

Not to mention, that your even missing your own point:

The files created in Vectorworks,or most other serious CAD
environments, export flawlessly into Strata CX 5.6 for rendering.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 18, 2:55*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

SketchUp is very capable within its limitations. To try to elevate it
into the same sphere as Vectorworks and AutoCAD, Vellum, and such,
shows a total lack of experience with industrial grade software.

Look again, dude ... thus far you are the one trying to "elevate" anything
"into the same sphere" by your insistence on direct comparison!


I do not insist on a direct comparison, in fact, I am the one who has
been making it clear that there is NO direct comparison. Apples (no
matter how poorly rendered) versus oranges.
SketchUp is a toy, albeit somewhat capable. Period.

And the fact that Strata can import that awkward .skp file from
SketchUp is a reflection on Strata's abilities, not SketchUp's. Same
goes for Vectorworks. Besides, why-the-**** would I create a part in
SU and the export it to Strata when I can create a more accurate part
in Strata itself?

Are you getting this yet, Bubba?

If you are trying to convince people that you can do with a brace-and-
bit what others can do with a Multi-Router?
Ultimately, you might be able to, but why then do you own a Multi-
Router?

There was no SketchUp when I got into CAD, so I learned the hard way.
Then when SU shows up, I immediately looked for features I use and
want. They ain't there my friend.

But enough of this nonsense, I'm wasting my time.

You win

*shrugs*

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Jan 18, 2:55 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

SketchUp is very capable within its limitations. To try to elevate it
into the same sphere as Vectorworks and AutoCAD, Vellum, and such,
shows a total lack of experience with industrial grade software.

Look again, dude ... thus far you are the one trying to "elevate"
anything
"into the same sphere" by your insistence on direct comparison!


I do not insist on a direct comparison, in fact, I am the one who has
been making it clear that there is NO direct comparison. Apples (no
matter how poorly rendered) versus oranges.
SketchUp is a toy, albeit somewhat capable. Period.

And the fact that Strata can import that awkward .skp file from
SketchUp is a reflection on Strata's abilities, not SketchUp's. Same
goes for Vectorworks. Besides, why-the-**** would I create a part in
SU and the export it to Strata when I can create a more accurate part
in Strata itself?

Are you getting this yet, Bubba?

The point you seem to be unable to grasp is that SU is NOT a "CAD" program,
has never been one, and makes NO pretense whatsoever of being one.

You have amply demonstrated your ignorance of that fact by insisting on your
comparison campaign _you_ started, so spare us the "total lack of experience
with industrial grade software" horse****.

What SU inarguably is, among other things, is a "serious" woodworking TOOL
for those woodworkers interested in designing their own. Start thinking past
your preconceived CAD notions, in a woodworking sense, and you may one day
appreciate the truth in that statement, but I won't hold my breath.

But enough of this nonsense, I'm wasting my time.

Hell, go start some more of your political **** stirring ... a better way to
waste of your time.

You win

That's right, if you can't stand the comparison heat you began, the
woodworking kitchen's obviously no place for you, dude.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 18, 3:44*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" *wrote in message

...



On Jan 18, 2:55 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

SketchUp is very capable within its limitations. To try to elevate it
into the same sphere as Vectorworks and AutoCAD, Vellum, and such,
shows a total lack of experience with industrial grade software.

Look again, dude ... thus far you are the one trying to "elevate"
anything
"into the same sphere" by your insistence on direct comparison!

I do not insist on a direct comparison, in fact, I am the one who has
been making it clear that there is NO direct comparison. Apples (no
matter how poorly rendered) versus oranges.
SketchUp is a toy, albeit somewhat capable. Period.

And the fact that Strata can import that awkward .skp file from
SketchUp is a reflection on Strata's abilities, not SketchUp's. Same
goes for Vectorworks. Besides, why-the-**** would I create a part in
SU and the export it to Strata when I can create a more accurate part
in Strata itself?

Are you getting this yet, Bubba?

The point you seem to be unable to grasp is that SU is NOT a "CAD" program,
has never been one, and makes NO pretense whatsoever of being one.

You have amply demonstrated your ignorance of that fact by insisting on your
comparison campaign _you_ started, so spare us the "total lack of experience
with industrial grade software" horse****.

What SU inarguably is, among other things, is a "serious" woodworking TOOL
for those woodworkers interested in designing their own. Start thinking past
your preconceived CAD notions, in a woodworking sense, and you may one day
appreciate the truth in that statement, but I won't hold my breath.

But enough of this nonsense, I'm wasting my time.

Hell, go start some more of your political **** stirring ... a better way to
waste of your time.

You win

That's right, if you can't stand the comparison heat you began, the
woodworking kitchen's obviously no place for you, dude.


Funny, my woodworker's kitchen is doing rather well, according to my
tax consultant and accountant...LOL

Funny how riled up you get over ****-all. You spent the money on
'Pro'...it's a dud, now live with it. Stop blaming any of us for your
bad choice of software. Jeesuz, bubba, lighten-the-**** up!

Now, I suppose you Texans are going to be all happy to have W back
amongst your midst, eh? Are you going to use SketchUp to design W's
presidential library? The shelves should be easy.. it will only hold 2
books, and one isn't even coloured yet.!

I really do have to get some work done, I'm busier than ol' hell with
people wanting to spend money on my incompetence...*G*

Mitchell 300 on an medium action 7' worm rod. 15 pound test.

"Robatoy" wrote

Funny, my woodworker's kitchen is doing rather well, according to my
tax consultant and accountant...LOL

Funny how riled up you get over ****-all. You spent the money on
'Pro'...it's a dud, now live with it. Stop blaming any of us for your
bad choice of software. Jeesuz, bubba, lighten-the-**** up!

LOL ...Au contraire, ye of cold, obviously brain impairing, climate.

Say what you will, but it's looking like that little old "3D surface
modeler" program (or, as one analyst put it, "a 3D modeler that creates 2D
polygons and does not have an underlying object-based technology") may well
have me eating steak well into the next year, instead of soup line fare ...,
and maybe until I can justify that permanent fishing trip to the lake house.

Now, I suppose you Texans are going to be all happy to have W back
amongst your midst, eh? Are you going to use SketchUp to design W's
presidential library? The shelves should be easy.. it will only hold 2
books, and one isn't even coloured yet.!

Yep, just thrilled to death ... absolutely thrilled to death by the
prospect!

I really do have to get some work done, I'm busier than ol' hell with
people wanting to spend money on my incompetence...*G*

You mean "ignorance", right? g, d & r Same here ... but what's this I
keep hearing about a "depression"?

Mitchell 300 on an medium action 7' worm rod. 15 pound test.

Actually, I'm looking at the "carrot stick", 12lb test, Carolina rigged
worm:

http://www.e21sports.com/fishing//products.php

Neighbor at the lake house in AR let me try his out ... impressive. More
than I wanted to spend, but what the hell, you gotta do your part for the
economy.

Hell, should be able to spend my upcoming bailout/tax relief/stimulus
package money on it, RSN ...

Stay out of the cold and keep that brain warm now, dude!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 18, 5:58*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" *wrote

Funny, my woodworker's kitchen is doing rather well, according to my
tax consultant and accountant...LOL

Funny how riled up you get over ****-all. You spent the money on
'Pro'...it's a dud, now live with it. Stop blaming any of us for your
bad choice of software. Jeesuz, bubba, lighten-the-**** up!

LOL ...Au contraire, ye of cold, obviously brain impairing, climate.

Say what you will, but it's looking like that little old "3D surface
modeler" program (or, as one analyst put it, "a 3D modeler that creates 2D
polygons and does not have an underlying object-based technology") may well
have me eating steak well into the next year, instead of soup line fare ....,
and maybe until I can justify that permanent fishing trip to the lake house.

Now, I suppose you Texans are going to be all happy to have W back
amongst your midst, eh? Are you going to use SketchUp to design W's
presidential library? The shelves should be easy.. it will only hold 2
books, and one isn't even coloured yet.!

Yep, just thrilled to death ... absolutely thrilled to death by the
prospect!

I really do have to get some work done, I'm busier than ol' hell with
people wanting to spend money on my incompetence...*G*

You mean "ignorance", right? *g, d & r Same here ... but what's this I
keep hearing about a "depression"?

Mitchell 300 on an medium action 7' worm rod. 15 pound test.

Actually, I'm looking at the "carrot stick", 12lb test, Carolina rigged
worm:

http://www.e21sports.com/fishing//products.php

Neighbor at the lake house in AR let me try his out ... impressive. More
than I wanted to spend, but what the hell, you gotta do your part for the
economy.

Hell, should be able to spend my upcoming bailout/tax relief/stimulus
package money on it, RSN ...

Stay out of the cold and keep that brain warm now, dude! *

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

You know what, Karl? We are not that different. Except that I am
always right, of course.

Maybe a chat on the phone would cure our ills... my dime.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Jan 18, 5:58 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

Funny, my woodworker's kitchen is doing rather well, according to my
tax consultant and accountant...LOL

Funny how riled up you get over ****-all. You spent the money on
'Pro'...it's a dud, now live with it. Stop blaming any of us for your
bad choice of software. Jeesuz, bubba, lighten-the-**** up!

LOL ...Au contraire, ye of cold, obviously brain impairing, climate.

Say what you will, but it's looking like that little old "3D surface
modeler" program (or, as one analyst put it, "a 3D modeler that creates
2D
polygons and does not have an underlying object-based technology") may
well
have me eating steak well into the next year, instead of soup line fare
...,
and maybe until I can justify that permanent fishing trip to the lake
house.

Now, I suppose you Texans are going to be all happy to have W back
amongst your midst, eh? Are you going to use SketchUp to design W's
presidential library? The shelves should be easy.. it will only hold 2
books, and one isn't even coloured yet.!

Yep, just thrilled to death ... absolutely thrilled to death by the
prospect!

I really do have to get some work done, I'm busier than ol' hell with
people wanting to spend money on my incompetence...*G*

You mean "ignorance", right? g, d & r Same here ... but what's this I
keep hearing about a "depression"?

Mitchell 300 on an medium action 7' worm rod. 15 pound test.

Actually, I'm looking at the "carrot stick", 12lb test, Carolina rigged
worm:

http://www.e21sports.com/fishing//products.php

Neighbor at the lake house in AR let me try his out ... impressive. More
than I wanted to spend, but what the hell, you gotta do your part for the
economy.

Hell, should be able to spend my upcoming bailout/tax relief/stimulus
package money on it, RSN ...

Stay out of the cold and keep that brain warm now, dude!

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

You know what, Karl? We are not that different. Except that I am
always right, of course.


Yabbut, I always win, eh?

Maybe a chat on the phone would cure our ills... my dime.

No ills a little Blackberry (Bold) to Blackberry (Storm)? can't overcome ...

Check your e-mail.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote

Actually, I'm looking at the "carrot stick", 12lb test, Carolina rigged
worm:

http://www.e21sports.com/fishing//products.php

Neighbor at the lake house in AR let me try his out ... impressive. More
than I wanted to spend, but what the hell, you gotta do your part for the
economy.

Damn, that thing has more space age materials in it than a stealth fighter.
No wonder it is so expensive.

Reminds me of a comment made by one of the survivors of the Hudson "water
landing". He, among many, were flying south to play golf. And all their
golf clubs had to be left behind. He was saying that he wasn't sure how
much he was going to spend on golf clubs now that his present set is in the
belly of a water logged plane.

Those are the deep questions of life. Just how much should one spend on golf
clubs (or fishing tackle)? Hmmmm...........

On Jan 18, 6:19*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message

...



On Jan 18, 5:58 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

Funny, my woodworker's kitchen is doing rather well, according to my
tax consultant and accountant...LOL

Funny how riled up you get over ****-all. You spent the money on
'Pro'...it's a dud, now live with it. Stop blaming any of us for your
bad choice of software. Jeesuz, bubba, lighten-the-**** up!

LOL ...Au contraire, ye of cold, obviously brain impairing, climate.

Say what you will, but it's looking like that little old "3D surface
modeler" program (or, as one analyst put it, "a 3D modeler that creates
2D
polygons and does not have an underlying object-based technology") may
well
have me eating steak well into the next year, instead of soup line fare
...,
and maybe until I can justify that permanent fishing trip to the lake
house.

Now, I suppose you Texans are going to be all happy to have W back
amongst your midst, eh? Are you going to use SketchUp to design W's
presidential library? The shelves should be easy.. it will only hold 2
books, and one isn't even coloured yet.!

Yep, just thrilled to death ... absolutely thrilled to death by the
prospect!

I really do have to get some work done, I'm busier than ol' hell with
people wanting to spend money on my incompetence...*G*

You mean "ignorance", right? g, d & r Same here ... but what's this I
keep hearing about a "depression"?

Mitchell 300 on an medium action 7' worm rod. 15 pound test.

Actually, I'm looking at the "carrot stick", 12lb test, Carolina rigged
worm:

http://www.e21sports.com/fishing//products.php

Neighbor at the lake house in AR let me try his out ... impressive. More
than I wanted to spend, but what the hell, you gotta do your part for the
economy.

Hell, should be able to spend my upcoming bailout/tax relief/stimulus
package money on it, RSN ...

Stay out of the cold and keep that brain warm now, dude!

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

You know what, Karl? We are not that different. Except that I am
always right, of course.

Yabbut, I always win, eh?

Maybe a chat on the phone would cure our ills... my dime.

No ills a little Blackberry (Bold) to Blackberry (Storm)? can't overcome ....

Check your e-mail.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Well... the best e-mail *I* got is the info button on my website. That
sets off my Blackberry Bold every time.
www.topworks.ca

On Jan 18, 1:54*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

The files created in Vectorworks,or most other serious CAD
environments, export flawlessly into Strata CX 5.6 for rendering.
Strata has serious capabilities built in to create any kind of shape
you desire. A bit awkward at first, to some, but a pussycat once you
discover their metaphor.

You mean like this Sketchup model rendered in Strata 5.5 :

http://www.stratacafe.com/image.asp?...=26525&nonav=1

Serious enough for you, eh Bubba? g,d,&r

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

That looks terrible!! Must have been a bad model to begin with...