I had to knock down a wall in order to get my CNC in. My back door was
only 48" wide, so, with with jack posts and air-hammers we got the job
done.

That particular wall is facing South. I had been intrigued by Morris
Dovey's work for quite some time and after a few very informative and
friendly e-mails and phone conversations, Morris shipped one 4-ft x 5-
ft panel on a skid to Port Huron MI. My guys picked it up there with
the truck and we installed it this week.

Today, minus 7-degrees Celsius. We took down the temporary walls we
had built outside of the gaping hole, (for security and heat reasons)
and the first sunlight hit the panel just an hour ago.

Amazing.....Just absolutely amazing. Free heat!! And way more than I
expected.

If you have a shop/garage with a south wall, and you're in a cold
location, run, don't walk to your nearest computer and give Morris a
call.
If you're up here in Canuckistan (SW Ontario region), hit the info
button on my website www.topworks.ca and I will set it all up for you.

Very happy r

On Dec 5, 11:29*am, Robatoy wrote:
I had to knock down a wall in order to get my CNC in. My back door was
only 48" wide, so, with with jack posts and air-hammers we got the job
done.

That particular wall is facing South. I had been intrigued by Morris
Dovey's work for quite some time and after a few very informative and
friendly e-mails and phone conversations, Morris shipped one 4-ft x 5-
ft panel on a skid to Port Huron MI. My guys picked it up there with
the truck and we installed it this week.

Today, minus 7-degrees Celsius. We took down the temporary walls we
had built outside of the gaping hole, (for security and heat reasons)
and the first sunlight hit the panel just an hour ago.

Amazing.....Just absolutely amazing. Free heat!! And way more than I
expected.

If you have a shop/garage with a south wall, and you're in a cold
location, run, don't walk to your nearest computer and give Morris a
call.
If you're up here in Canuckistan (SW Ontario region), hit the info
button on my websitewww.topworks.caand I will set it all up for you.

Very happy r

I will post some pics in the next week or so, as soon as we trim it
out nicely and do a little painting.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 11:29 am, Robatoy wrote:
I had to knock down a wall in order to get my CNC in. My back door was
only 48" wide, so, with with jack posts and air-hammers we got the job
done.

That particular wall is facing South. I had been intrigued by Morris
Dovey's work for quite some time and after a few very informative and
friendly e-mails and phone conversations, Morris shipped one 4-ft x 5-
ft panel on a skid to Port Huron MI. My guys picked it up there with
the truck and we installed it this week.

Today, minus 7-degrees Celsius. We took down the temporary walls we
had built outside of the gaping hole, (for security and heat reasons)
and the first sunlight hit the panel just an hour ago.

Amazing.....Just absolutely amazing. Free heat!! And way more than I
expected.

If you have a shop/garage with a south wall, and you're in a cold
location, run, don't walk to your nearest computer and give Morris a
call.
If you're up here in Canuckistan (SW Ontario region), hit the info
button on my websitewww.topworks.caand I will set it all up for you.

Very happy r

I will post some pics in the next week or so, as soon as we trim it
out nicely and do a little painting.
**************************

I was going to suggest some photo's. Sounds like a win - win situation to
me. Any idea yet as to the actual amount of heat generated? Any plans to
add more panels?

And Morris, good on ya. Keep up the good work.

Robatoy wrote:
I had to knock down a wall in order to get my CNC in. My back door was
only 48" wide, so, with with jack posts and air-hammers we got the job
done.

That particular wall is facing South. I had been intrigued by Morris
Dovey's work for quite some time and after a few very informative and
friendly e-mails and phone conversations, Morris shipped one 4-ft x 5-
ft panel on a skid to Port Huron MI. My guys picked it up there with
the truck and we installed it this week.

You need a new tape rule - it's 4'x6'.

Today, minus 7-degrees Celsius. We took down the temporary walls we
had built outside of the gaping hole, (for security and heat reasons)
and the first sunlight hit the panel just an hour ago.

And people keep saying that fusion power is a non-starter...

Amazing.....Just absolutely amazing. Free heat!! And way more than I
expected.

And now you *know* why fish have scales.

If you have a shop/garage with a south wall, and you're in a cold
location, run, don't walk to your nearest computer and give Morris a
call.

I'd like that - but I'm /still/ encouraging those who have the ability
and the tools to build their own...

If you're up here in Canuckistan (SW Ontario region), hit the info
button on my website www.topworks.ca and I will set it all up for you.

Very happy r

And that's what it's all about. You've made my day.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
I'd like that - but I'm /still/ encouraging those who have the ability
and the tools to build their own...


Are the plans on your site?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Morris Dovey writes:
And people keep saying that fusion power is a non-starter...

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-app...encemath/abd4/

-MIKE- wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
I'd like that - but I'm /still/ encouraging those who have the ability
and the tools to build their own...

Are the plans on your site?

Not yet - see http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Journey.html for the full story
on that issue.

Meanwhile, I provide a lot of text/photo/drawing clues on my web site
about what works well. I care a great deal that people make a real
effort to think through what they do, and I really do hope that enables
them to actually improve on what I'm doing.

My design is very much geared toward CNC production. Different tools
will lead to at least minor design changes - and I'd prefer to let
people work out designs that are a good fit with their capabilities.

There is a wealth of free DIY info at http://www.builditsolar.com and I
encourage you to take a long look at the site.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

DJ Delorie wrote:
Morris Dovey writes:
And people keep saying that fusion power is a non-starter...

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-app...encemath/abd4/

I might have to get one of those.

Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Dec 5, 12:11*pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
I had to knock down a wall in order to get my CNC in. My back door was
only 48" wide, so, with with jack posts and air-hammers we got the job
done.

That particular wall is facing South. I had been intrigued by Morris
Dovey's work for quite some time and after a few very informative and
friendly e-mails and phone conversations, Morris shipped one 4-ft x 5-
ft panel on a skid to Port Huron MI. My guys picked it up there with
the truck and we installed it this week.

You need a new tape rule - it's 4'x6'.

We're metric here...*smirk*

On Dec 5, 1:02*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Dec 5, 12:11*pm, Morris Dovey wrote: Robatoy wrote:
I had to knock down a wall in order to get my CNC in. My back door was
only 48" wide, so, with with jack posts and air-hammers we got the job
done.

That particular wall is facing South. I had been intrigued by Morris
Dovey's work for quite some time and after a few very informative and
friendly e-mails and phone conversations, Morris shipped one 4-ft x 5-
ft panel on a skid to Port Huron MI. My guys picked it up there with
the truck and we installed it this week.

You need a new tape rule - it's 4'x6'.

We're metric here...*smirk*

That also explains why we needed a 20-pound sledge to get it into the
hole.

Robatoy wrote:
On Dec 5, 1:02 pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Dec 5, 12:11 pm, Morris Dovey wrote: Robatoy wrote:
I had to knock down a wall in order to get my CNC in. My back door was
only 48" wide, so, with with jack posts and air-hammers we got the job
done.
That particular wall is facing South. I had been intrigued by Morris
Dovey's work for quite some time and after a few very informative and
friendly e-mails and phone conversations, Morris shipped one 4-ft x 5-
ft panel on a skid to Port Huron MI. My guys picked it up there with
the truck and we installed it this week.
You need a new tape rule - it's 4'x6'.
We're metric here...*smirk*

That also explains why we needed a 20-pound sledge to get it into the
hole.

Did the sledge survive?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Dec 5, 1:56*pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
On Dec 5, 1:02 pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Dec 5, 12:11 pm, Morris Dovey wrote: Robatoy wrote:
I had to knock down a wall in order to get my CNC in. My back door was
only 48" wide, so, with with jack posts and air-hammers we got the job
done.
That particular wall is facing South. I had been intrigued by Morris
Dovey's work for quite some time and after a few very informative and
friendly e-mails and phone conversations, Morris shipped one 4-ft x 5-
ft panel on a skid to Port Huron MI. My guys picked it up there with
the truck and we installed it this week.
You need a new tape rule - it's 4'x6'.
We're metric here...*smirk*

That also explains why we needed a 20-pound sledge to get it into the
hole.

Did the sledge survive?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

It melted... fusion power and all that stuff...

Stuart wrote:
In article
,
Robatoy wrote:
If you have a shop/garage with a south wall, and you're in a cold
location, run, don't walk to your nearest computer and give Morris a
call.

Not sure he'd come and install in the UK ;-0

I would, but you don't need me to do the install. A local construction
tradesman wouldn't have any difficulty and would probably involve a lot
less red tape.

The bigger obstacle, of course, is the small-quantity shipping costs. At
some point it might make sense to set up a production facility on your
side of the pond someplace where there's a well-managed timber supply.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Dec 5, 12:44*pm, Morris Dovey wrote:


My design is very much geared toward CNC production.

What a coinkidink!

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:29:05 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
wrote:


Amazing.....Just absolutely amazing. Free heat!! And way more than I
expected.

Just playing the dark side here, bro... What was your cost on the project?

They do a lot of solar here in Baja, but it takes years to get your initial
investment back from savings in utilities..
Might just be our location, though. Electricity is very inexpensive here..
Now, in the Republik of Kalifornia your savings would be much more..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote

They do a lot of solar here in Baja, but it takes years to get your
initial
investment back from savings in utilities..

IIRC, this is passive solar heat ... no electricity involved, except in
savings providing it was used to formerly heat the space.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
"mac davis" wrote

They do a lot of solar here in Baja, but it takes years to get your
initial
investment back from savings in utilities..

IIRC, this is passive solar heat ... no electricity involved, except in
savings providing it was used to formerly heat the space.

Yuppers. The payback period is figured by dividing the cost of the
panels by the averaged annual conventional heating cost. The
conventional cost varies from place to place and current cost of the
energy used.

People who like to work with really sharp pencils may want to figure in
costs associated with buying, installing, maintaining (etc) the baseline
conventional system, but I don't even bother - and I encourage people to
keep whatever heating system they already have as a backstop for
protracted periods of unusually cold, dark weather.

It'll take Robatoy a while to get enough data to calculate his payback
period - but a typical number for rural Iowa when I ran the numbers a
year ago appears to be just a bit over two years. A properly installed
panel whose exterior wood surfaces are kept painted should last longer
than 25 years, so a panel (here) should provide at least 23 years of
free heat.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
....

Yuppers. The payback period is figured by dividing the cost of the
panels by the averaged annual conventional heating cost. The
conventional cost varies from place to place and current cost of the
energy used.
....
What kind of output would that 4x6 panel yield, Morris?

And, how is the heat distributed and what do you do about the heat load
during hot IA or KS summers?

(I'm wondering if an area on the barn would be feasible--do these
actually replace wall sections if I read correctly--don't really think
I'd want to do that on a moderately historical structure...)

--

dpb wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
...

Yuppers. The payback period is figured by dividing the cost of the
panels by the averaged annual conventional heating cost. The
conventional cost varies from place to place and current cost of the
energy used.
...
What kind of output would that 4x6 panel yield, Morris?

A really accurate answer would involve more waffling than I can tolerate
(weather patterns, geographic location, snowfall, whatever's in front of
the panel, ad nauseum) so I'll give you the short, over-simplified (and
somewhat conservative) answer that each two-foot section delivers heat
comparable to a milk-house heater on "High" when there's no snow on the
ground. If there's clean snow between the panel and the sun, then add
75-90% to account for reflected energy.

And, how is the heat distributed and what do you do about the heat load
during hot IA or KS summers?

Although there isn't one, the panel /acts/ as if it had a moderately
hefty blower. For really good heat distribution, it's difficult to beat
a ceiling-hugging variable speed ceiling fan turning slowly to prevent
heat stratification near the ceiling. On my web page with the shop
photos, you can see the ceiling fan right in the middle of the shop -
it's used to both prevent stratification and to push warm air down to
warm the floor, which is what keeps the shop warm overnight. Without the
fan, it'd still be warm during the day (but less evenly so) and it'd be
probably 5-10F cooler overnight.

As summer approaches, the vertical panel shuts itself off by reflecting
more and more of the sunlight to the ground in front of the panel (DAGS
"critical angle" for a technical explanation).

To shut the panels completely off, you could install a cover over the
glazing - but none of my customers have yet done this (and they all
asked the same question g).

(I'm wondering if an area on the barn would be feasible--do these
actually replace wall sections if I read correctly--don't really think
I'd want to do that on a moderately historical structure...)

They replace all but the inner surface (drywall or paneling) of the
wall. The barn would need to be reasonably "tight" and "well-insulated"
for /any/ kind of heating to be worth the money - and you're right about
adding a "high tech" look to historical structures...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
dpb wrote:

... what do you do about the heat load during hot IA or KS summers?

As summer approaches, the vertical panel shuts itself off by reflecting
more and more of the sunlight to the ground in front of the panel (DAGS
"critical angle" for a technical explanation).

More on this at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Astro/Seasons.html

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Dec 6, 11:34*am, Morris Dovey wrote:
dpb wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
...

Yuppers. The payback period is figured by dividing the cost of the
panels by the averaged annual conventional heating cost. The
conventional cost varies from place to place and current cost of the
energy used.
...
What kind of output would that 4x6 panel yield, Morris?

A really accurate answer would involve more waffling than I can tolerate
(weather patterns, geographic location, snowfall, whatever's in front of
the panel, ad nauseum) so I'll give you the short, over-simplified (and
somewhat conservative) answer that each two-foot section delivers heat
comparable to a milk-house heater on "High" when there's no snow on the
ground. If there's clean snow between the panel and the sun, then add
75-90% to account for reflected energy.


Soooo.. if I were to put a 4x8 sheet of something...like white
melamine in front of this panel, on the ground.......

"Robatoy" wrote

On Dec 6, 11:34 am, Morris Dovey wrote:
dpb wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
...

Yuppers. The payback period is figured by dividing the cost of the
panels by the averaged annual conventional heating cost. The
conventional cost varies from place to place and current cost of the
energy used.
...
What kind of output would that 4x6 panel yield, Morris?

A really accurate answer would involve more waffling than I can tolerate
(weather patterns, geographic location, snowfall, whatever's in front of
the panel, ad nauseum) so I'll give you the short, over-simplified (and
somewhat conservative) answer that each two-foot section delivers heat
comparable to a milk-house heater on "High" when there's no snow on the
ground. If there's clean snow between the panel and the sun, then add
75-90% to account for reflected energy.


Soooo.. if I were to put a 4x8 sheet of something...like white
melamine in front of this panel, on the ground.......
*************************

An interesting idea. The material would need to be stable, durable and
highly reflective. It would probably need to be washed now and then too. I
don't think birds could resist using such a bright surface as a target.

Still....., if this works, it would just improve the numbers on payback,
etc.

Robatoy wrote:

Soooo.. if I were to put a 4x8 sheet of something...like white
melamine in front of this panel, on the ground.......

By George, I think he's got it!

Heh - how about a little spray adhesive and some aluminum foil on that
melamine if you're going to be /really/ greedy?

Or... You could get a dozen 4x8 sheets of rear-silvered polycarbonate
mirror material and make your shop really toasty. :-)

See photos at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/Heat.html to
see how to produce serious warmth...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:

Swingman wrote:
"mac davis" wrote

They do a lot of solar here in Baja, but it takes years to get your
initial
investment back from savings in utilities..

IIRC, this is passive solar heat ... no electricity involved, except in
savings providing it was used to formerly heat the space.

Yuppers. The payback period is figured by dividing the cost of the
panels by the averaged annual conventional heating cost. The
conventional cost varies from place to place and current cost of the
energy used.

People who like to work with really sharp pencils may want to figure in
costs associated with buying, installing, maintaining (etc) the baseline
conventional system, but I don't even bother - and I encourage people to
keep whatever heating system they already have as a backstop for
protracted periods of unusually cold, dark weather.

It'll take Robatoy a while to get enough data to calculate his payback
period - but a typical number for rural Iowa when I ran the numbers a
year ago appears to be just a bit over two years. A properly installed
panel whose exterior wood surfaces are kept painted should last longer
than 25 years, so a panel (here) should provide at least 23 years of
free heat.


That looks like a winning cost trade. Thus far, all of the other
alternatives like solar electric don't come even close. I did a trade
earlier this year and couldn't get the system to even pay for itself over
the advertised 25 year life span. That took into account any credits and
rebates available and included paying cash for the system (i.e., no
interest cost) and not assuming any lost investment value on the cash.
What was really ironic was that the company selling the solar system was
willing to issue a 30 year note on a system for which they were advertising
a 25 year life.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Morris Dovey wrote:
Or... You could get a dozen 4x8 sheets of rear-silvered polycarbonate
mirror material and make your shop really toasty. :-)

See photos at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/Heat.html to
see how to produce serious warmth...


Do you watch Mythbusters? :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
Or... You could get a dozen 4x8 sheets of rear-silvered polycarbonate
mirror material and make your shop really toasty. :-)

See photos at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/Heat.html
to see how to produce serious warmth...

Do you watch Mythbusters? :-)

I've heard of but never seen (no cable TV). What did they do?

This heat, BTW, is used to run an engine whose only moving parts are air
and water (in keeping with my fondness for keeping things as simple as
possible).

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
dpb wrote:
....
What kind of output would that 4x6 panel yield, Morris?

A really accurate answer would involve more waffling than I can tolerate
(weather patterns, geographic location, snowfall, whatever's in front of
the panel, ad nauseum) so I'll give you the short, over-simplified (and
somewhat conservative) answer that each two-foot section delivers heat
comparable to a milk-house heater on "High" when there's no snow on the
ground. If there's clean snow between the panel and the sun, then add
75-90% to account for reflected energy.

We're beef not, dairy so I don't have a clue of what you think a
milk-house heater on "High" BTU output is...

I don't give a patootie about really accurate, I was just looking for
ballpark sizing guesstimates.

So, iiuc, this is relying on ground reflection not direct solar? The
thoughts I had were more for hayloft.

The point about tight is a good one--that's a real issue for the barn
which is why the free fuel source is attractive--if it could at least
knock of the worst in an area w/ some internal baffling to reduce the
draft it would be more than have presently.

--

Mark & Juanita wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:

That looks like a winning cost trade. Thus far, all of the other
alternatives like solar electric don't come even close. I did a trade
earlier this year and couldn't get the system to even pay for itself over
the advertised 25 year life span. That took into account any credits and
rebates available and included paying cash for the system (i.e., no
interest cost) and not assuming any lost investment value on the cash.
What was really ironic was that the company selling the solar system was
willing to issue a 30 year note on a system for which they were advertising
a 25 year life.

Solar thermal can be awesomely efficient and solar photovoltaics offered
on the consumer market (as opposed to those made for aerospace
applications) have energy conversion efficiencies of only 10-15%.

I've been working to develop a couple of fluidynes (Stirling cycle heat
engines) capable of converting sunlight directly to mechanical energy.
These have a theoretical maximum efficiency of only about 55% - and I
don't expect to do better than 25-30% with my design but, still, they'll
be a lot more efficient than using PV panel to charge a battery which is
then used to run a motor (with losses at each conversion).

OTOH, direct solar doesn't work very well at night...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
See photos at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/Heat.html to see how
to produce serious warmth...

Do you watch Mythbusters? :-)

I've heard of but never seen (no cable TV). What did they do?


They did an episode on Archimedes' Death Ray, which purportedly was used
to burn up attacking ships out in the sea. Thousands of solders holding
mirrors pointing at a ship.... phhhhhew, it bursts into flames.... so
legend has it.

Some of their "experiments" closly resembled your parabolic.
I'm guessing a youtube search could yield both episodes in their
entirety.
Although I'm guessing there would be a lot of, "Nooooooo," and "That's
not how you do it," coming from your lips. :-)


This heat, BTW, is used to run an engine whose only moving parts are
air and water (in keeping with my fondness for keeping things as
simple as possible).


I'm really enjoying reading your info.
Ever work with geothermal? Not volcanic steam they get in Greenland,
but piping buried underground to get the constant 55 degree temp.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
See photos at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling/Heat.html to see how
to produce serious warmth...

Do you watch Mythbusters? :-)

I've heard of but never seen (no cable TV). What did they do?


They did an episode on Archimedes' Death Ray, which purportedly was used
to burn up attacking ships out in the sea. Thousands of solders holding
mirrors pointing at a ship.... phhhhhew, it bursts into flames.... so
legend has it.

Yuppers, I'd read about that. I've heard that references have been found
to a description of a steam engine in the Library at Al Iskanderia.

Some of their "experiments" closly resembled your parabolic.
I'm guessing a youtube search could yield both episodes in their
entirety.
Although I'm guessing there would be a lot of, "Nooooooo," and "That's
not how you do it," coming from your lips. :-)

Yeah, I'll admit to being at least that much a geek. Isn't it amazing
just how little of all this technology is actually /new/?

Ever work with geothermal? Not volcanic steam they get in Greenland,
but piping buried underground to get the constant 55 degree temp.

I haven't, but here's a bit of native Iowa geothermal technology:

http://www.cobett.com/

The gentleman whose shop you looked at has one of these and added
horizontal plastic pipe runs at the bottom for a bit of added heat. He
introduced me to the guy who came up with the stock waterers, and I can
vouch for him being a good guy to do business with (blatant plug).

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
....
... the guy who came up with the stock waterers, ...

I'd be most interested in that, too, Morris...

--

dpb wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
...
... the guy who came up with the stock waterers, ...

I'd be most interested in that, too, Morris...

Here it comes 'round again:

http://www.cobett.com/



--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
dpb wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
...
... the guy who came up with the stock waterers, ...

I'd be most interested in that, too, Morris...

Here it comes 'round again:
....
Oh, sorry...I thought that was an indirect connection referred to.

I'm on way out of town; will check at some more length later on.

Am still curious about the approximate Btu panel output, though...

--

dpb wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
dpb wrote:
...
What kind of output would that 4x6 panel yield, Morris?

A really accurate answer would involve more waffling than I can
tolerate (weather patterns, geographic location, snowfall, whatever's
in front of the panel, ad nauseum) so I'll give you the short,
over-simplified (and somewhat conservative) answer that each two-foot
section delivers heat comparable to a milk-house heater on "High" when
there's no snow on the ground. If there's clean snow between the panel
and the sun, then add 75-90% to account for reflected energy.

We're beef not, dairy so I don't have a clue of what you think a
milk-house heater on "High" BTU output is...

Oops - sorry. Usually 1300 - 1500 Watts.

I don't give a patootie about really accurate, I was just looking for
ballpark sizing guesstimates.

So, iiuc, this is relying on ground reflection not direct solar? The
thoughts I had were more for hayloft.

Ballpark without reflection as above. Reflected energy is a variable
bonus in addition to that.

The point about tight is a good one--that's a real issue for the barn
which is why the free fuel source is attractive--if it could at least
knock of the worst in an area w/ some internal baffling to reduce the
draft it would be more than have presently.

The panels will certainly add heat, but warm air rises and is guaranteed
to find any upward path to the outdoors. If you have a specific area
you'd like to heat, then a bit of framing to support insulation and some
plastic film might provide a way to retain much of the heat...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Dec 6, 12:57*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
Swingman wrote:
"mac davis" wrote

They do a lot of solar here in Baja, but it takes years to get your
initial
investment back from savings in utilities..

IIRC, this is passive solar heat ... no electricity involved, except in
savings providing it was used to formerly heat the space.

Yuppers. The payback period is figured by dividing the cost of the
panels by the averaged annual conventional heating cost. The
conventional cost varies from place to place and current cost of the
energy used.

People who like to work with really sharp pencils may want to figure in
costs associated with buying, installing, maintaining (etc) the baseline
conventional system, but I don't even bother - and I encourage people to
keep whatever heating system they already have as a backstop for
protracted periods of unusually cold, dark weather.

It'll take Robatoy a while to get enough data to calculate his payback
period - but a typical number for rural Iowa when I ran the numbers a
year ago appears to be just a bit over two years. A properly installed
panel whose exterior wood surfaces are kept painted should last longer
than 25 years, so a panel (here) should provide at least 23 years of
free heat.

* That looks like a winning cost trade. *Thus far, all of the other
alternatives like solar electric don't come even close. *I did a trade
earlier this year and couldn't get the system to even pay for itself over
the advertised 25 year life span. That took into account any credits and
rebates available and included paying cash for the system (i.e., no
interest cost) and not assuming any lost investment value on the cash.
What was really ironic was that the company selling the solar system was
willing to issue a 30 year note on a system for which they were advertising
a 25 year life.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

I would say you got in concert with a goof troop of a AE company or
you made some grave miscalculations. The data out there is pretty well
established as to payback of well designed and well located AE
systems. While in many areas they can be markedly less cost effective
none I have seen have a 30 year payback even in states with no
rebates. I would have to think something in your calculations was
incorrect or your system was overblown, poorly designed, etc. This
wouldnt surprise me in the least as when capitalist greed gets
involved installers usually pork up the system and install.

Most simple calculators available on line that take into consideration
generating 75% of your residential power and a modest 6% annual
increase in energy costs will show that an average house with a $75/mo
electric bill will save some 30,000-40,000 dollars over the 20 year
life of a 9-11k system. In many states this system will cost 3-4k out
of pocket and less if you can do any of the install yourself.

Of course all calculations are speculative in that none of is know
where the cost of energy is going in the next 25 years. If we can keep
scaring OPEC over the loss of their cash cow we may be able to hold
their feet to the fire keeping petro low. Have heard two or three
times on the news here lately that some project if this low stays low
we could again see 1.00 gasoline though it would of course be
unsustainable. These low costs will, and are there to, thwart AE in
any form. It is actually quite sad when we need to be forced to
innovate.

Mark

BDBConstruction wrote:

On Dec 6, 12:57Â*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
Swingman wrote:
"mac davis" wrote

They do a lot of solar here in Baja, but it takes years to get your
initial
investment back from savings in utilities..


.... snip
It'll take Robatoy a while to get enough data to calculate his payback
period - but a typical number for rural Iowa when I ran the numbers a
year ago appears to be just a bit over two years. A properly installed
panel whose exterior wood surfaces are kept painted should last longer
than 25 years, so a panel (here) should provide at least 23 years of
free heat.

That looks like a winning cost trade. Â*Thus far, all of the other
alternatives like solar electric don't come even close. Â*I did a trade
earlier this year and couldn't get the system to even pay for itself over
the advertised 25 year life span. That took into account any credits and
rebates available and included paying cash for the system (i.e., no
interest cost) and not assuming any lost investment value on the cash.
What was really ironic was that the company selling the solar system was
willing to issue a 30 year note on a system for which they were
advertising a 25 year life.
... snip

I would say you got in concert with a goof troop of a AE company or
you made some grave miscalculations. The data out there is pretty well
established as to payback of well designed and well located AE
systems. While in many areas they can be markedly less cost effective
none I have seen have a 30 year payback even in states with no
rebates. I would have to think something in your calculations was
incorrect or your system was overblown, poorly designed, etc. This
wouldnt surprise me in the least as when capitalist greed gets
involved installers usually pork up the system and install.

Most simple calculators available on line that take into consideration
generating 75% of your residential power and a modest 6% annual
increase in energy costs will show that an average house with a $75/mo
electric bill will save some 30,000-40,000 dollars over the 20 year
life of a 9-11k system. In many states this system will cost 3-4k out
of pocket and less if you can do any of the install yourself.



First, 6% is hardly a modest annual increase in annual energy costs and is
not born out historically. Checking to determine whether it would be cost
effective to change out my old heat pump for a newer, more efficient one, I
checked my electric use for the past 10 years -- energy costs have not
increased by that much on average. A more realistic average is closer to
3% per year.

However, starting with your estimate of $75 over 20 years with 6%
increases, one gets the following:

Year Per month Per Year Cumulative 75% Savings Cum savings
1 $75 $900 $900 $675 $675
2 $80 $954 $1,854 $716 $1,391
3 $84 $1,011 $2,865 $758 $2,149
4 $89 $1,072 $3,937 $804 $2,953
5 $95 $1,136 $5,073 $852 $3,805
6 $100 $1,204 $6,278 $903 $4,708
7 $106 $1,277 $7,554 $958 $5,666
8 $113 $1,353 $8,908 $1,015 $6,681
9 $120 $1,434 $10,342 $1,076 $7,757
10 $127 $1,521 $11,863 $1,140 $8,897
11 $134 $1,612 $13,474 $1,209 $10,106
12 $142 $1,708 $15,183 $1,281 $11,387
13 $151 $1,811 $16,994 $1,358 $12,745
14 $160 $1,920 $18,914 $1,440 $14,185
15 $170 $2,035 $20,948 $1,526 $15,711
16 $180 $2,157 $23,105 $1,618 $17,329
17 $191 $2,286 $25,392 $1,715 $19,044
18 $202 $2,423 $27,815 $1,818 $20,861
19 $214 $2,569 $30,384 $1,927 $22,788
20 $227 $2,723 $33,107 $2,042 $24,830


However, applying the more realistic 3% increase:
Year Per month Per Year Cumulative 75% Savings Cum savings
1 $75 $900 $900 $675 $675
2 $77 $927 $1,827 $695 $1,370
3 $80 $955 $2,782 $716 $2,086
4 $82 $983 $3,765 $738 $2,824
5 $84 $1,013 $4,778 $760 $3,584
6 $87 $1,043 $5,822 $783 $4,366
7 $90 $1,075 $6,896 $806 $5,172
8 $92 $1,107 $8,003 $830 $6,002
9 $95 $1,140 $9,143 $855 $6,857
10 $98 $1,174 $10,317 $881 $7,738
11 $101 $1,210 $11,527 $907 $8,645
12 $104 $1,246 $12,773 $934 $9,580
13 $107 $1,283 $14,056 $962 $10,542
14 $110 $1,322 $15,378 $991 $11,533
15 $113 $1,361 $16,739 $1,021 $12,554
16 $117 $1,402 $18,141 $1,052 $13,606
17 $120 $1,444 $19,585 $1,083 $14,689
18 $124 $1,488 $21,073 $1,116 $15,805
19 $128 $1,532 $22,605 $1,149 $16,954
20 $132 $1,578 $24,183 $1,184 $18,138

Now, that is still respectable and would provide a return on investment
beginning in the 6'th year as long as maintenance is not required.
However, I would expect some maintenance in terms of batteries or other
storage devices required to achieve the stated 75% savings since one must
be able to get some of that savings at night. If you are relying upon
selling the energy back to the electric company at a 1 for 1 trade to serve
as your storage system, one can't rely on that in the out years if more
people start using this approach.


The systems I saw for solar electric sufficient for home electric
generation were on the order of $60k, vs the $3 to $4k you indicate.


Of course all calculations are speculative in that none of is know
where the cost of energy is going in the next 25 years. If we can keep
scaring OPEC over the loss of their cash cow we may be able to hold
their feet to the fire keeping petro low. Have heard two or three
times on the news here lately that some project if this low stays low
we could again see 1.00 gasoline though it would of course be
unsustainable. These low costs will, and are there to, thwart AE in
any form. It is actually quite sad when we need to be forced to
innovate.

Mark


The 10 year average I used should be fairly applicable since it began at a
period when gas prices were below $1 and have carried through this year's
$4+ prices. The fly in the ointment in the future will be if this cap and
trade taxation scheme ever gets implemented and destroys the cost of
electric power.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Morris Dovey wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:

That looks like a winning cost trade. Thus far, all of the other
alternatives like solar electric don't come even close. I did a trade
earlier this year and couldn't get the system to even pay for itself over
the advertised 25 year life span. That took into account any credits and
rebates available and included paying cash for the system (i.e., no
interest cost) and not assuming any lost investment value on the cash.
What was really ironic was that the company selling the solar system was
willing to issue a 30 year note on a system for which they were
advertising a 25 year life.

Solar thermal can be awesomely efficient and solar photovoltaics offered
on the consumer market (as opposed to those made for aerospace
applications) have energy conversion efficiencies of only 10-15%.

I've been working to develop a couple of fluidynes (Stirling cycle heat
engines) capable of converting sunlight directly to mechanical energy.
These have a theoretical maximum efficiency of only about 55% - and I
don't expect to do better than 25-30% with my design but, still, they'll
be a lot more efficient than using PV panel to charge a battery which is
then used to run a motor (with losses at each conversion).


If you can get the efficiency up there and turn an alternator, you may
have something

OTOH, direct solar doesn't work very well at night...


No, but if you can get the effiecencies a bit above what you are thinking,
one can either charge batteries or sell back to the electric company. Right
now, a lot of places they do 1 for 1, in the future I would expect that to
change to more like 2 for 1 cost to buy-back ratio. Still that might be a
good trade for having to buy and replace a battery farm.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Mark & Juanita wrote:

If you can get the efficiency up there and turn an alternator, you may
have something

I figure I'll have something as soon as I can get these things to
irrigate the first million acres of marginal cropland through a dry season.

OTOH, direct solar doesn't work very well at night...

No, but if you can get the effiecencies a bit above what you are thinking,
one can either charge batteries or sell back to the electric company. Right
now, a lot of places they do 1 for 1, in the future I would expect that to
change to more like 2 for 1 cost to buy-back ratio. Still that might be a
good trade for having to buy and replace a battery farm.

My first priority is availability, rather than efficiency. As with many
engines and motors, the first increment of efficiency is almost free and
the final increment defines unaffordability.

I'm taking the lazy man's way out by trying to solve the easy problem
first...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 12:04:58 -0600, Morris Dovey
wrote:

This heat, BTW, is used to run an engine whose only moving parts are air
and water (in keeping with my fondness for keeping things as simple as
possible).

There was an interesting article in the Nov PM mag about an Arizona
company named Stirling Energy Systems. They're testing a 38' wide
dish powering a 25KW Stirling engine that heats and cools hydrogen
gas. They claim to have set an efficiency record for a commercial
solar device at 31.25 %.

After reading that, I'm wondering how many mirrors I can glue to my
neighbor's old 6' satellite dish.


Mike O.

On Dec 6, 6:21*pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:
snip

* The 10 year average I used should be fairly applicable since it began at a
period when gas prices were below $1 and have carried through this year's
$4+ prices. *The fly in the ointment in the future will be if this cap and
trade taxation scheme ever gets implemented and destroys the cost of
electric power.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Even the most conservative speculations are not looking to even the
recent past as an accurate gauge of where our energy prices could be
headed in the next 20 years. We are by no means on a level grade
though it is of course all speculation. The auto exec's surley based
their business on an unmitigated analysis focused squarely on the past
with no eye to the future and look where it has gotten their
businesses. I have no idea if you are one that feels there is a never
ending supply of oil and NG and we are all being snowed with regards
to the energy and environmental issues we face in the future. If that
is the case than the conversation is pointless as we can all rest our
bones and just boost the thermostat.

With regards to system sizing/pricing I merely referenced a 1.5-2kw
system which of course is not going to cut it for a large or all
electric or wasteful/non-conserving home. Nor one in poor location for
PV. This is a system that would cost 9-11k or less without storage.
With federal and state rebates could be as low as I mentioned. This is
a system respective of the 75.00 a month electric bill in most
locations. However, if ones bill is more than 75, its more, system is
bigger, savings are bigger. The common averages state that one can
expect a 8-12 percent return on investment over 20 years depending on
system cost and location (rebates). Most portfolios are lucky to hit
that in decent times and arent further bolstered by tens of thousands
of tons of reduced carbon footprint. At some point we have to stop
merely looking at our wallet. Though it will always be the
overwhelming factor at some point we are going to have to factor other
things in that we may not be instantly compensated for or that we
merely break even financially over the 20 years.

Given this is for CA but a simple calculator found in many forms on
the net - http://www.suncalsolar.com/costs/costs.htm

This link is from a company we have used and these examples are more
geared toward off grid homes. They all include costly batteries
however also use grid tie-able inverters. http://www.backwoodssolar.com/reference/examples.htm
.. Examples 2-4 would be similar (less the batteries, trading them for
panels) to what I was referring to. Even the largest system on the
list isnt 60k though it doesnt include any installation.

With regards to system maintenance yes, of course there will be
maintenance as well as risk. It isnt any different than any other
investment you make. Just like hail can trash your car or home, a
lightning strike, power surge, falling tree, could damage your system.
Just like your vehicle oil changes, tires, and home require
maintenance so will it though without batteries it would require
virtually none. If there is storage involved replacing battery banks
every 5-7 years will be factored in. However most grid tied homes opt
to forgo storage and trade those $$ for more panels as the grid is a
far more effective storage module than batteries. This would
additionally boost output. This is something that always gives me a
chuckle. When someone wants a cedar sided house, tiled roof, or an
Escolade they dont "run the numbers". They just want it. The cost of
owning it is offset by emotion. Yet when something like this is
actually practical and in many cases even profitable it is held to
unrealistic standards of scrutiny by some.

The simple fact of the matter, is most all calculators out there call
out 8-12 percent return on investment with many factors included.
Given some of this is based on state and fed rebates and it varies
from state to state. Savings is savings. From my perspective if you
can come within +/- 2 points of the average interest rate of the same
period for investing your money its a no brainer simply due to doing
more with less and supporting new and innovative industries.

Sadly, most of the blanket nay sayers with regards to AE in general
come from a very biased viewpoint to begin with and will only be
swayed if they get paid. Break even wont even move them. Its the Me
Millennium, Welcome to the future.

Mark