Opened up a Craftsman catalogue today and in the middle of the thing
is a couple of pages of Rockwell tools. Those that would compete with
Porter Cable and at least one with Delta.

Now I know Rockwell sold their tool division to Pentair mid eighties
(I was hired because of it) and I can only assume they had a long
term non compete which is normal for such a sale, so where did this
stuff come from and how long has it been out there?

Is it a case of another company selling or leasing their name?
Rockwell?

I'm so confused.

Frank

On Oct 17, 4:50 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
Opened up a Craftsman catalogue today and in the middle of the thing
is a couple of pages of Rockwell tools. Those that would compete with
Porter Cable and at least one with Delta.

Now I know Rockwell sold their tool division to Pentair mid eighties
(I was hired because of it) and I can only assume they had a long
term non compete which is normal for such a sale, so where did this
stuff come from and how long has it been out there?

Is it a case of another company selling or leasing their name?
Rockwell?

From their website:

"Rockwell power tools are a part of the Positec Group of companies
which have been designing, engineering and manufacturing power tools
since 1994."

That help at all?

On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:08:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Oct 17, 4:50 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
Opened up a Craftsman catalogue today and in the middle of the thing
is a couple of pages of Rockwell tools. Those that would compete with
Porter Cable and at least one with Delta.

Now I know Rockwell sold their tool division to Pentair mid eighties
(I was hired because of it) and I can only assume they had a long
term non compete which is normal for such a sale, so where did this
stuff come from and how long has it been out there?

Is it a case of another company selling or leasing their name?
Rockwell?

From their website:

"Rockwell power tools are a part of the Positec Group of companies
which have been designing, engineering and manufacturing power tools
since 1994."

That help at all?

Yes, I read that on the website. Just trying to find out how they
acquired the name and the right to use it.

Frank

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 09:36:58 -0500, "Upscale"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
"Rockwell power tools are a part of the Positec Group of companies
which have been designing, engineering and manufacturing power tools
since 1994."

Yes, I read that on the website. Just trying to find out how they
acquired the name and the right to use it.

I've got a Rockwell Beaver table saw. I was under the impression that the
company eventually got sold out to Delta. Can't confirm this, but it's what
I understood for a number of years.

Rockwell stationary, including the Guelph operation, was sold to
Pentair in 1984 and when that happened, Pentair chose to start using
the Delta name again as the primary brand. Rockwell had moved the
branding away from Delta. Rockwell had already sold the Porter Cable
brand and all facilities to Pentair in 1981.

Normally, you cannot use a name that had been covered by the non
compete agreement. I'm just trying to figure out how this came about.
Doesn't really matter, a sign of the times.

Either way, it's too bad really. I've
always associated Rockwell with a long line of fine tool technology. It's
disconcerting when the old, recognized and valued names get sold off one way
or another.

Toronto's Skydome is a case in effect. It's now the Roger's Centre, a
company I love to hate. That detracts from the Skydome lore as far as I'm
concerned. It's only an emotional association I know, but it's still there.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
"Rockwell power tools are a part of the Positec Group of companies
which have been designing, engineering and manufacturing power tools
since 1994."

Yes, I read that on the website. Just trying to find out how they
acquired the name and the right to use it.

I've got a Rockwell Beaver table saw. I was under the impression that the
company eventually got sold out to Delta. Can't confirm this, but it's what
I understood for a number of years. Either way, it's too bad really. I've
always associated Rockwell with a long line of fine tool technology. It's
disconcerting when the old, recognized and valued names get sold off one way
or another.

Toronto's Skydome is a case in effect. It's now the Roger's Centre, a
company I love to hate. That detracts from the Skydome lore as far as I'm
concerned. It's only an emotional association I know, but it's still there.

Upscale wrote:

I've got a Rockwell Beaver table saw. I was under the impression that
the company eventually got sold out to Delta. Can't confirm this, but
it's what I understood for a number of years. Either way, it's too
bad really. I've always associated Rockwell with a long line of fine
tool technology. It's disconcerting when the old, recognized and
valued names get sold off one way or another.

It happens in every industry, from sporting goods to musical instruments.
Somebody buys the company, shuts down the plant and reopens in Korea or
China and churns out relative crapola under the old name while advertising
it as if it's still the genuine article. The consumer plays a role too,
they buy the crapola because it's cheaper, then they complain too many jobs
are being exported....

On Oct 18, 9:36*am, "Upscale" wrote:
I've always associated Rockwell with a long line of fine tool technology.

I have a Rockwell 346 that continues to run, it was made '74,
purchased by me in '75. It was used every day on the job (with me
filling the grease cup every other day!) for a couple of years, and
then routinely after that.

Rockwell was the king of the hill.

But let's not forget they whored out long ago for a multitude of
reasons. At the mid/end of the 70s, they started making lines of
plastic tools. Aimed at competing with Black and Decker, these tools
were even crappier.

They had cheap, thin, all plastic housings, 2' cords and NO bearings.
I paid $125 for my 346 (in '75!!) and you could buy their plastic POS
for $25. They made a full line of these tools, from little home
crafter drills to sanders. I still see one in an estate sale or pawn
shop every once in a while.

They were total garbage, and they stopped making them altogether
somewhere in the 80s. Even homeowners broke them.

To me, THAT was the demise of the great Rockwell name. Somewhere
around that time, they really cut the quality of their professional
tools as well. Victims of the unholy alliance of propeller heads and
bean counters, no doubt.

The only tools that seemed to have withstood their re-engineering was
their sanders and corded drills.

My wonderful 346 (6 1/2" trim saw) and its big brother the 315 (7 1/4"
carpenter's saw) didn't make it out of the 70s. They were replaced
with plastic and fiberglass (of some sort) saws that were crap.

After years of buying Rockwell branded tools without question, no one
I knew was buying anything Rockwell after the late 70s. We DID buy
the old Rockwell tools we could find here and there though.

But for me, that is what opened the door to Milwaukee. DeWalt had not
staged their comeback and diversification yet, and there was only
Millers Falls, Milwaukee, the Black and Decker professional line, and
a few other companies that offered professional grade powered hand
tools.

I went with Milwaukee then, and was never sorry for anything I
purchased from them.

To me, Rockwell, its purchasers, stockholders, or any other culprit
that might be named was the first professional tool company to want to
make that jump into the home shop market thinking that the homeowner
would appreciate price over quality. They sure paid the price. No
one wants to buy junk, even if it is only for occasional use.

It's disconcerting when the old, recognized and valued names get sold off one way
or another.

I couldn't agree with you more. I remember looking at those cheap
green Rockwell saws with their orange cords in the late 70s and
thinking "what have they done? What were they thinking?". It is
troublesome.

On the other hand, I have some really nice tools these days, but have
become numb to where they are made and who did this or that to get a
name or manufacturing right. These days, all I want is a good bang
for the buck.

If the new Rockwell tools are a good bang for the buck, they will do
fine. If they are crap, they will be relegated to being just another
Chinese POS no one cares about.

Robert

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:51:50 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Oct 18, 9:36*am, "Upscale" wrote:
I've always associated Rockwell with a long line of fine tool technology.

I have a Rockwell 346 that continues to run, it was made '74,
purchased by me in '75. It was used every day on the job (with me
filling the grease cup every other day!) for a couple of years, and
then routinely after that.

Rockwell was the king of the hill.



Yep. I used a 315 for years but finally wound up with too many saws
and decided to keep the Skilsaw wormdrive 77 and their Pro 8600 that
has the 60 degree tilt on the baseplate.

My first set of tools was all those Rockwell silver colored bad boys.
Had their bayonet (sic) saw but replaced that with a Bosch. Had their
version of the reciprocating saw (Tigersaw?) but replaced that with a
Milwaukee Sawzall. Had their drill but replace it with Milwaukee's.
Had a Rockwell 9" electric miter box but replaced that with a Hitachi
8 1/2" SCMS.

Still have a couple of tubes of that Rockwell grease if you need some
:-)



tom watson

wrote in message
But for me, that is what opened the door to Milwaukee. DeWalt had not
staged their comeback and diversification yet, and there was only
Millers Falls, Milwaukee

I went with Milwaukee too, first a 12v cordless drill and then a corded
hammer drill. Both of them are still in operation. However, recently when I
was looking to buy a cordless package, the dealer I was talking to told me
that Milwaukee was now built offshore. I didn't have to think twice and
bought a six tool DeWalt 18v package. Too many times I've handled the
offshore stuff and I won't even consider looking at it anymore, much less
buying it.

On Oct 18, 3:32*pm, t wrote:

Yep. *I used a 315 for years but finally wound up with too many saws
and decided to keep the Skilsaw wormdrive 77

Which of course became an industry standard and classic all at the
same time. An awful lot of saw to wag around!
*Had their
version of the reciprocating saw (Tigersaw?) but replaced that with a
Milwaukee Sawzall. *

VBG I never had one of those bayonet saws, but I had seen them. My
first recip was a Milwaukee, which is another tools I still have. I
was all polished aluminum with a little red lightning bolt painted on
the side. It was something like a whopping 6 amps, an it continues to
run like a vintage sewing machine. It NEVER goes to a job anymore.
My guys (and me!) are too used to our bigger Sawzall, and our favorite
the PC 12 amp oscillating recip saw.

Remember how often we wore out those old steel blades 30 years ago?
We were so careful that when doing demo we took wood and metal blades
for the saw. We would cut until we thought we were at the nails, then
we changed blades. After cutting the metal, we changed back. Hitting
a nail with the wood blades killed the blade instantly.

Now I happily cut away with a 6 - 8 TPI bimetal samurai meatchopping
sombitch that cuts everything, and I never think about it.

Had their drill but replace it with Milwaukee's.

Ditto. And yes.... my 1975 vintage Milwaukee 3/8" hole shooter still
works fine. It was my only drill for years, and no one is more
surprised than me that it still works fine.

Still have a couple of tubes of that Rockwell grease if you need some
:-)

I might have to take you up on that! The last tube I saw of that was
when I helped my Dad buy one of those 346 saws, and he has it in the
original Rockwell box. The last time I saw it, probably ten years ago
it was so old it wasn't white anymore... it was a odd brown.

Hmmmm... I just read Upscale's post Tom, and realized REALLY how long
ago we are talking about in actual years and tool years. There
weren't many usable cordless tools out until about 1980. Upscales
MW 12V drill probably was out around the end of the 80s to start of
the 90s or so.

My first was a Hitachi about 1984 (when they were still made in Japan
as Hitachi Koki) and it was a 7.6 volt 1/4" chuck drill that took 12
hours to charge, and you could use it for about 30 minutes. We used
it hang mini blinds and put on door hardware in condo refurbs we were
doing. It wasn't good for anything else. It might have generated
about 30 pounds of torque, max.

I was in the orange box last week, and met the Hilti rep that told me
they were going to go into certain HD stores with their products.
They have designed a drill cordless drill that is a 15.6 volt
operation that generates (a grain of salt here) over 600 ft lbs of
torque. *ahem* Anyway, he also told me that this drill would drive
over 400 3" screws (I never heard of such a thing) into solid pine.

My how things have changed.

Even if this guy missed it by 20% on every claim, that's still pretty
substantial performance. Price? Not bad for an all German made tool,
which he claimed was made from all German made components. Drill, two
batteries, charger and bag: $229. Two year warranty and some other
impressive details.

Things like that make the old scratched and scuffed aluminum sawzall
and Rockwell saw in the shop look pretty old and dated.

No matter. I still haul them out every once in a while and use them
for some light work. I get a kick out of using them.

Robert

wrote in message
...
On Oct 18, 3:32 pm, t wrote:

Yep. I used a 315 for years but finally wound up with too many saws
and decided to keep the Skilsaw wormdrive 77

Which of course became an industry standard and classic all at the
same time. An awful lot of saw to wag around!
snip


I had my father's 8" Porter Cable side winder that was a 1960's vintage.
Unfortunately, it was stolen.
That saw was made by the original PC and it was a tough powerful saw that
handled anything that came it's way. I've never had a saw that is it's
equal. The tools made during that era were quality. Black and Decker,
Rockwell, Milwaukee, and the original Dewalt radial arm saws were all
terrific. Craftsman was a good line.

You know, refrigerators were called Frigidaires, portable circular saws were
called Skilsaws.

Now most of them are called pos. Aw well!!

Thank God for Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, and sometimes DeWalt has a good tool.
The 621 router is a good one and Bosch seems to be good.

wrote in message
Hmmmm... I just read Upscale's post Tom, and realized REALLY how long
ago we are talking about in actual years and tool years. There
weren't many usable cordless tools out until about 1980. Upscales
MW 12V drill probably was out around the end of the 80s to start of
the 90s or so.

Going on close to 30 years now and it still works fine with a few battery
rebuilds along the way. You look at 99% of the tools on the market these
days and there's no way in hell that you can expect that long a life out of
any of them. Not that I expect to live 30 years more, but it sure says
something about the quality of the older tools. Too bad it's mostly only the
older generation that realizes it.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...


Opened up a Craftsman catalogue today and in the middle of the thing
is a couple of pages of Rockwell tools. Those that would compete with
Porter Cable and at least one with Delta.

Now I know Rockwell sold their tool division to Pentair mid eighties
(I was hired because of it) and I can only assume they had a long
term non compete which is normal for such a sale, so where did this
stuff come from and how long has it been out there?

Is it a case of another company selling or leasing their name?
Rockwell?

I'm so confused.

Frank
I'll bet that Rockwell did not sell their own name to Pentair. In any case,
this sort of thing happens quite frequently.
For example, Zeiss sold the Contax name to a Japanese company many years
ago. Thus, when Zeiss decided to re-enter the camera market, the product
was called Zeiss Ikon rather than Zeiss Contax.
The Japanese outfit is still selling cameras with the Contax brand name.

Back here in the power tool market, we have seen that Black and Decker no
longer means the top brand of the Black and Decker company. At present it
is confusing whether their top brand is DeWalt or Porter-Cable.

Similarly, Skil no long means the top brand of whichever Japanese company
bought Skil. Conversely, Milwaukee is still the top brand of whichever
Japanese company bought them.

It really is hard to keep all this straight, and perhaps that is the
intention of the Japanese owners.

As for myself, I will buy either Milwaukee or DeWalt power tools. I leave
all others at the store.

Jim

Jim wrote:
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...


Opened up a Craftsman catalogue today and in the middle of the
thing
is a couple of pages of Rockwell tools. Those that would compete
with Porter Cable and at least one with Delta.

Now I know Rockwell sold their tool division to Pentair mid
eighties
(I was hired because of it) and I can only assume they had a long
term non compete which is normal for such a sale, so where did this
stuff come from and how long has it been out there?

Is it a case of another company selling or leasing their name?
Rockwell?

I'm so confused.

Frank
I'll bet that Rockwell did not sell their own name to Pentair. In
any case, this sort of thing happens quite frequently.
For example, Zeiss sold the Contax name to a Japanese company many
years ago. Thus, when Zeiss decided to re-enter the camera market,
the product was called Zeiss Ikon rather than Zeiss Contax.
The Japanese outfit is still selling cameras with the Contax brand
name.

Actually, Kyocera pulled the plug on Contax (and Yashica) in 2005.
The Yashica name has been sold to some Chinese outfit the name of
which escapes me.

Back here in the power tool market, we have seen that Black and
Decker no longer means the top brand of the Black and Decker
company.
At present it is confusing whether their top brand is DeWalt or
Porter-Cable.

Similarly, Skil no long means the top brand of whichever Japanese
company bought Skil.

No, the top brand of that company is simply "Bosch". And it's not
Japanese.

Conversely, Milwaukee is still the top brand of
whichever Japanese company bought them.

Techtronic Industries, in Hong Kong, also not Japanese.

It really is hard to keep all this straight, and perhaps that is the
intention of the Japanese owners.

Which might be the case if there were any Japanese involved.

In point of fact at this time the Japanese don't need to put American
brand names on their products.

As for myself, I will buy either Milwaukee or DeWalt power tools. I
leave all others at the store.

Well, then, you're missing out on some damn good jigsaws--the
Milwaukee and DeWalt models are based on expired Bosch patents, while
Bosch has not stood still in the interim.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

wrote:
On Oct 17, 4:50 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
Opened up a Craftsman catalogue today and in the middle of the
thing
is a couple of pages of Rockwell tools. Those that would compete
with Porter Cable and at least one with Delta.

Now I know Rockwell sold their tool division to Pentair mid
eighties
(I was hired because of it) and I can only assume they had a long
term non compete which is normal for such a sale, so where did this
stuff come from and how long has it been out there?

Is it a case of another company selling or leasing their name?
Rockwell?

From their website:

"Rockwell power tools are a part of the Positec Group of companies
which have been designing, engineering and manufacturing power tools
since 1994."

That help at all?

Probably Positec Suzhao, that sells tools under the "Worx" brand and
apparently now under "Rockwell".

May not have anything at all to do with Rockwell International, which
is now totally out of the tool business and split into several
specialized companies. Even when they were in the tool business the
only brand they sold that contained the name "Rockwell" was "Rockwell
Delta"--they didn't sell under the "Rockwell" brand, but at this point
if they cared to even try I doube that either Rockwell Collins or
Rockwell Automation would be able to make much of a case that Rockwell
on power tools would create confusion in the market or dilute their
trademark.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)