I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

"Ignoramus7553" wrote in message
...
I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

I have worked with lag screws extensively and I do not feel confident that
lag screws will hold consistently any heavy load if the stress is being
applied vertically. Horizontally (to the lag screw) perhaps, but not
vertically.

If the lag screws are stressed sideways, I would want at least 3 1/2" to 4"
minimum.

I would suggest some kind of threaded BIG bolts, another plate on the other
side from the eye plate, and extra nuts.

I have built platforms that needed to be winched onto a trailer or truck
before. What I did was to jrill a big hole and run a bolt throough it. I
cut out a section near the middle of the bolt. I then threaded the bolt
through a big iron ring. This was sufficent for any kind of hook or other
means of attaching the cart to the cable.

On Sep 21, 1:49*am, Ignoramus7553
wrote:
I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

Here's a lag screw load calculator:
http://www.awc.org/calculators/connections/ccstyle.asp?

R

RicodJour wrote:

Here's a lag screw load calculator:

Actually, it also for bolts, wood screws, and nails...

http://www.awc.org/calculators/connections/ccstyle.asp?

Good link to have handy - thank you!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

EXCELLENT link! that one's going into the favorites.

jc

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Sep 21, 1:49 am, Ignoramus7553
wrote:
I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

Here's a lag screw load calculator:
http://www.awc.org/calculators/connections/ccstyle.asp?

R

In article ac323131-1442-4f7e-9869-
,
says...
On Sep 21, 1:49*am, Ignoramus7553
wrote:
I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

Here's a lag screw load calculator:
http://www.awc.org/calculators/connections/ccstyle.asp?

Thanks indeed! That's a great tool to have around.

I'm planning something akin to what the OP is doing. I have an
unfinished room above my garage with access only to the second floor
of the house (it's where they generally put the "bonus room"). My
plan is to use if as my shop (convert it to the bonus room if I
move).

I'm trying to think of a way to get tools and materials up there, so
was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and
"winch"?) with an access door down to the garage. I'd have to lift
a table saw (~600lbs.), hence the interest in this load calculator.

--
Keith

krw wrote:
....
was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and
"winch"?) ...

Hoists are for lifting, winches are for pulling.

As well as the connection, need to be sure you're attaching it to
something that can hold the load.

A FWW a couple years ago had a shop in upstairs over garage w/ the same
idea. It, of course, was designed dedicated so he designed for and
installed a full length trolley beam, but a simple block and tackle was
sufficient for lifting even larger qear. (IIRC, he had an old 20+"
jointer which would have been roughly twice your weight...

--

In article , says...
krw wrote:
...
was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and
"winch"?) ...

Hoists are for lifting, winches are for pulling.

What's the difference? A winch rated for 1000lbs. has to pull with
1000lbs. force. A hoist has to pull the same force. Obviously I'm
missing something basic here.

As well as the connection, need to be sure you're attaching it to
something that can hold the load.

The "attaching it to" is easy. A few 2x12s can easily support a
1000lbs, once the interface problem is solved. ;-) The floor has
to support the same load.

A FWW a couple years ago had a shop in upstairs over garage w/ the same
idea. It, of course, was designed dedicated so he designed for and
installed a full length trolley beam, but a simple block and tackle was
sufficient for lifting even larger qear. (IIRC, he had an old 20+"
jointer which would have been roughly twice your weight...

I thought of using something simpler since moving the tools is a
one-time (maybe two thing. I figured that once I solved the
difficult problem of the tools, materials would be a piece of cake.
I also need to get a pile of plywood (flooring) and sheetrock up
there. Carrying any of this stuff through the house won't impress
SWMBO. The fallback position will be to keep the big tools in the
garage and move partially finished stuff upstairs. This doesn't
sound like a lot of fun though.

--
Keith

krw wrote:
In article , says...
krw wrote:
...
was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and
"winch"?) ...
Hoists are for lifting, winches are for pulling.

What's the difference? ...

Winches for pulling don't have the safety locks for overhead lifts
hoists do...

--

Ignoramus7553 wrote:
I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

I agree w/ Lee the way to do this is w/ a through connection.

Lags aren't reliable enough for the job at hand and aren't intended for
tension loads at all and certainly shouldn't be used for lifting scenarios.

--

I would use bolts and bottom plate lag screws would be silly.
If you do use lag screws get video of the first lift,





"Ignoramus7553" wrote in message
...
I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their
inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:49:02 -0500, Ignoramus7553
wrote:

I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

Define "wood cart", please.. especially the material it's made of..

It seems to weigh 200 pounds?
Will the lag bolts be in a 2x4" a 4x4" or maybe 1/4" ply?
Why specifically 5/15" lags?



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On 2008-09-21, mac davis wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:49:02 -0500, Ignoramus7553
wrote:

I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

Define "wood cart", please.. especially the material it's made of..

three 2x12 6' long. Three crossmembers, at front, aft and rear,
2x10s. The crossmembers are attached to lengthwise 2x12s by means of
wood glue and screws.

It seems to weigh 200 pounds?

Maybe 150 or 170.

Will the lag bolts be in a 2x4" a 4x4" or maybe 1/4" ply?
Why specifically 5/15" lags?

Lag bolts are 5" long, 5/16 in diameter, there is four of them,
screwed into those 2x12 and 2x10s.

This is for pulling, not lifting.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Ignoramus6193 wrote:
....
Lag bolts are 5" long, 5/16 in diameter, there is four of them,
screwed into those 2x12 and 2x10s.

In which direction?

This is for pulling, not lifting.

Same problem -- load isn't as great, but it's still a safety issue if it
pulls out while somebody is behind the ramp.

It's not at all an optimal design choice and it would seem essentially
trivial to make the lags machine bolts, ideally w/ the plate also on the
back side.

Note the pulling resistance of lags is only slightly over the weight
from the calculator posted which provides essentially a safety factor of
1.0 -- again an indication you're under-designed.

--

dpb wrote in :

*snip*


It's not at all an optimal design choice and it would seem essentially
trivial to make the lags machine bolts, ideally w/ the plate also on
the back side.


*snip*

One thing to consider is that with lag bolts you have to drive the entire
bolt in. At 4" long, that's a lot of driving to do. Conversely, with
machine bolts (such as carriage bolts) all you've got to do is drill a
through hole and attach the nut.

Just something to think about as you get to building. On my ice rink last
year I switched after the second lag bolt to carriage bolts and got the
thing assembled.

Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On 2008-09-21, Puckdropper puckdropper wrote:
One thing to consider is that with lag bolts you have to drive the entire
bolt in. At 4" long, that's a lot of driving to do. Conversely, with
machine bolts (such as carriage bolts) all you've got to do is drill a
through hole and attach the nut.

Just something to think about as you get to building. On my ice rink last
year I switched after the second lag bolt to carriage bolts and got the
thing assembled.

I used an impact. It was not a problem. I think that I would not
hesitate to use this ring for general pulling of this around the yard,
but when it comes to winching it into the trailer, I may attach a slig
somewhere else.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Ignoramus6193 wrote:

On 2008-09-21, mac davis wrote:

Define "wood cart", please.. especially the material it's made of..


three 2x12 6' long. Three crossmembers, at front, aft and rear,
2x10s. The crossmembers are attached to lengthwise 2x12s by means of
wood glue and screws.



It sounds like the glue joint would have to be end grain to long grain
making it just about useless. What do you suppose the shear strength of
the screws are for the cross member that the "lifting eye" will be
attached to?

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On 2008-09-21, Nova wrote:
Ignoramus6193 wrote:

On 2008-09-21, mac davis wrote:

Define "wood cart", please.. especially the material it's made of..


three 2x12 6' long. Three crossmembers, at front, aft and rear,
2x10s. The crossmembers are attached to lengthwise 2x12s by means of
wood glue and screws.



It sounds like the glue joint would have to be end grain to long grain
making it just about useless. What do you suppose the shear strength of
the screws are for the cross member that the "lifting eye" will be
attached to?

It is long grain to long grain, if I understand you correctly. One
board under another but perpendicular.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

"Ignoramus7553" wrote in message
...
I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their
inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

I'd use bolts, not lags.

Through bolts, BIG washers or second plate.

Look he http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp.../fplgtr113.htm
and specifically he
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...tr113/ch07.pdf for application
guidance regarding use of lag screws.

This (or any) design idea can't be meaningfully analyzed without at least a
drawing (clear sketch)("worth 1000 words") of the configuration and loading
directions envisioned. I suspect that each of your respondants has
visualized something different. Generally, I too tend to favor bolts with
nuts and washers. When all is said and done, the orientation and integrity
of the proposed weld in the ring could still prove to be the weak link.

David Merrill

"Ignoramus7553" wrote in message
...
I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.

On 2008-09-22, David Merrill wrote:
Look he http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp.../fplgtr113.htm
and specifically he
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...tr113/ch07.pdf for application
guidance regarding use of lag screws.

This (or any) design idea can't be meaningfully analyzed without at least a
drawing (clear sketch)("worth 1000 words") of the configuration and loading

I do not have a picture at the moment. The cart is made of three 2x12
6 ft long boards (lengthwise boards), and three 36" long 2x12 boards
running perpendicularly to the 6 ft boards, under them.

==============================
###### ###### ######

You are viewing these boards, such that you are seeing the long side
of the top boards (depicted by ========), and only the cross section
of the crossmember board, depicted by ######. If you now turned that T
by 90 degrees, you would see


====== ====== ======
####################

The weldment comprised of a 1/4" plate and eyebolt looks like this

!!
!!
=========

or

/~\
\ /
=~~~=


or

====!!====
==o=!!=o==
====!!====
==o=!!=o==
====!!====

The steel plate is roughly 6x2x1/4. The eyebolt is roughly 2" in
diameter, 5/8" thick. The holes in the 1/4" plate are depicted by
letters "o" on the last picture. They are 5/16" diameter and
accommodate 5/16 by 5" long lag screws.

The top two lag screws are parallel to the grain of the top board.
The bottom two lag screws are perpendicular to the grain of the bottom
board.

I am least concerned about the weld.

i

directions envisioned. I suspect that each of your respondants has
visualized something different. Generally, I too tend to favor bolts with
nuts and washers. When all is said and done, the orientation and integrity
of the proposed weld in the ring could still prove to be the weak link.

David Merrill

"Ignoramus7553" wrote in message
...
I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.

To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.

My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.




--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Ignoramus15296 wrote:
....
The top two lag screws are parallel to the grain of the top board.
....
Those two are in end grain and they're essentially worthless in tension.

You don't have nearly enough "beef" in the attachment. As long as
you're only dragging it around on the ground all that will happen is it
stops following, but you definitely have a serious hazard when/if you
try to get that off the ground.

That isn't exactly the orientation I had envisioned as you're dragging
crossways of the "runners" below instead of with them which will be the
most friction you can have. I'd suggest two things...

1. Turn it around and pull from the 90-deg position from where you
currently are. An additional "runner" underneath might be advantageous
to cut down the friction depending on the surface.

2. I'd find or make a square 'U' bracket to go over the two pieces at
the front edge and bolt thru the top/bottom w/ carriage bolts for a much
more secure/stout connection. A heavy wraparound fence hinge strap for
3" thick might work well or just bend some flat.

Using your artwork,

---|
====== ====== ======|O -- attachment point ring
####################|
----

--

dpb wrote:
....
2. I'd find or make a square 'U' bracket ...

Using your artwork,

---|
====== ====== ======|O -- attachment point ring
####################|
----


Actually, something that would work nearly as well and let you even use
the lags (where I'd not complain too much ) would be


====== ====== ======|O -- attachment point ring
####################|
----

using an angle. Then the lags at both the top and the bottom are out of
the end grain and the primary loading is lateral as opposed to in the
withdrawal mode, a much more secure arrangement.

--