Just curious, are there any first run Woodworks episodes? DIY network runs
the show all weekend, but I have noticed they are all dated 2002 to 2005.

"ron" wrote in message
Just curious, are there any first run Woodworks episodes? DIY network runs
the show all weekend, but I have noticed they are all dated 2002 to 2005.

Actually, there haven't been any new shows in over three years. Here is a
video interview with David and his wife, Victoria, where he mentions the
number of episodes:

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-...rks-interview/


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Apr 29, 5:59*am, "Swingman" wrote:
"ron" *wrote in message
Just curious, are there any first run Woodworks episodes? DIY network runs
the show all weekend, but I have noticed they are all dated 2002 to 2005..

Actually, there haven't been any new shows in over three years. Here is a
video interview with David and his wife, Victoria, where he mentions the
number of episodes:

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-...rks-interview/

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Here in southern Calif "WoodsmithShop" just started airing on PBS
The shows I've seen deal with the basic wwing process

"i82much" wrote

Here in southern Calif "WoodsmithShop" just started airing on PBS
The shows I've seen deal with the basic wwing process

We've got them on PBS here also. Although I've set the DVR to record them
just in case, the "WoodsmithShop" content thus far have been a bit too basic
to keep for my purposes, although I'm glad to see that ww shows are still
being produced and run on PBS.

AAMOF, I wish I still had the original versions I recorded from PBS of "Wood
Works" (lost them on a DVR that went south before I had a chance to xfer
them to DVD), as the DIY versions are full of DIY's inane commercial
bull****, including pop up screens over the content on occasion ... damned
American commercial greed.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:39:38 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

"i82much" wrote

Here in southern Calif "WoodsmithShop" just started airing on PBS
The shows I've seen deal with the basic wwing process

AAMOF, I wish I still had the original versions I recorded from PBS of "Wood
Works" (lost them on a DVR that went south before I had a chance to xfer
them to DVD), as the DIY versions are full of DIY's inane commercial
bull****, including pop up screens over the content on occasion ... damned
American commercial greed.

Was WoodWorks ever on PBS? I thought that was a DIY original. I
remember David mentioning as he was describing the production process
the voiceover work he had to do in post including the extremely
annoying "when we come back..." and "previously on our project..."
segments bracketing the commercials.

I was also surprised at how pressing (and unrealistic) the production
team could be regarding time and the processes to be demonstrated. He
mentioned one segment in which he was to do a glueup which would take
several minutes on a good day, but if pushed, he might be able to do
in 50 seconds. They alloted 7 seconds. He argued, they insisted, he
tried to explain, they insisted, he did it in 50 seconds, anyway, and
let them "fix it in post."

Although it generally looked like he was enjoying the show, there was
apparently a fair amount of behind the scenes frustration. Still, he
was ready to do more when they pulled the plug on production. I don't
remember (if I knew) whether that was a DIY decision or the
productiont company.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote
Was WoodWorks ever on PBS? I thought that was a DIY original.

You're right ... I've always used a DVR to record WoodWorks because I was
usually gone on Saturday nights. I _thought_ I remembered the original shows
without commercial interruption, which could only have happened on PBS.

I'm definitely making a conscious effort to do less thinking as time goes
by, apparently for good reason ...

remember David mentioning as he was describing the production process
the voiceover work he had to do in post including the extremely
annoying "when we come back..." and "previously on our project..."
segments bracketing the commercials.

Currently recording the ones I lost and I certainly don't remember all the
aggravating crap DIY flashes on the screen during the actual "re-run"
content.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote

Actually, there haven't been any new shows in over three years. Here is a
video interview with David and his wife, Victoria, where he mentions the
number of episodes:

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-...rks-interview/

Word to the wise wooddorker:

This is a GREAT video to watch with your SWMBO. AAMOF, it should be made a
mandatory SWMBO duty, for indeed, a great amount of woodworking mileage,
karma, blessings, understanding, and maybe even a tool or two, can be
obtained by familiarity therewith. DAMHIKT.

Insist upon it ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

You know Swing, that was a pretty good video. I was surprised to see
how accessible and easy going Marks was.

He came to our sunny town about three years ago shilling something for
Woodcraft. Here for the day only, it was treated as the second
coming. The boys of the woodworking club and the staff at WC were
positively giddy with excitement.

He got here, and by all accounts, he was abrupt and hurried. It was
obvious that it was an obligation. He did not want to share
woodworking stories with any of them, and made that clear. But he
really rubbed the woodworking club members the wrong way at his
reaction to a piece they brought forward for his blessing.

One of the guys had made one of Marks' tables, and had gotten so many
compliments on it that he decided to teach others how to make it.
(That meant he was now a woodworking instructor, right?) This guy had
made several of these tables along with his classes, and was feeling
pretty good about his work.

Without knowing who the instructor or artisan actually was, he looked
over the table and rendered a pretty seething commentary on how it was
made, how the joints were assembled, how the veneer trims were
installed and really hammered the finish.

Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
with a flooring trowel.)

Maybe he was rushed, maybe he didn't want to be there, maybe there was
trouble at home, who knows. But he cut so deeply that the guy quit
his instruction and won't teach anyone anything anymore.

In my opinion, Marks was wrong. There were all these older retirees,
younger hobby guys, garage woodworkers, etc., that were just looking
for a pat on the back. I know there are many that feel like the cold
light of truth is always the best way to view things, but I am not one
of them. Those guys knew there work wasn't perfect, they just wanted
a nod and a "man, that looks nice". They would have have been "proud
to bust" and had bragging rights for 10 years over a compliment.

And it isn't like these guys were even trying to make it as cabinet or
furniture makers. I get a charge out of some of them as they told me
that it takes so damn long for them to do anything that they would
starve to death unless they charged by the hour. But, the allow that
if they charged by the hour they would be rich!

Since I do this for a living like you do, I run into two different
kinds of folks that do woodworking. There are those that don't want
me to see their work. I always find ways to compliment them.
Always. They turn beet red when their SO says from the kitchen
"honey, did you show Robert the XXX you made?". I always finds
something positive to say. On the other hand, from time to time I am
surprised and run into a fellow that is as good as any professional,
so it is easy to be complimentary. I find that most non-professional
woodworkers have a good sense of humility, and are in the crafts to
enjoy them more than anything else.

The other kind is the one that cannot wait for me to see what he has
done. These were the guys that were at the Marks show at WC. And
yes, these guys get compliments, too. Why not? They aren't pros, and
don't pretend to be. Sometimes they ask for tips, sometimes I offer
one or two. It is always a positive experience. And if they turn out
to be clients, more than once I have had wives come to me and tell me
how much they appreciated me taking the time to examine a project and
pass on some compliments.

I think the art of a carefully crafted compliment is a good habit to
have, and one that is also lost these days. It costs nothing, and
given the right way you aren't pandering or insincere. But you can
sure do a lot of good with it.

I think it is interesting that Marks speaks highly of others and his
students and assistants, and he seemed sincere in the video since he
obviously didn't have to bring it up at all. And he was really nice
to that young guy and his wife.

Maybe when he came here he was just having a bad day.

Off the soap box now.

Robert

wrote

Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
with a flooring trowel.)

In my opinion, Marks was wrong.

I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in
your story.

I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_ to
make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's
was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly
won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how
wonderful their bad song/part is.

AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
mention doing what you're paid to do.

That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or
destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for
improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most sought
after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so crushed
as to no longer be able to perform.

Sound familiar?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Apr 30, 7:13*am, "Swingman" wrote:
wrote

Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
with him, and his words cut really deep. *As for me, I saw the table
and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. *(Although, I
must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
with a flooring trowel.)
In my opinion, Marks was wrong.

I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in
your story.

I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_ to
make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's
was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly
won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how
wonderful their bad song/part is.

AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
mention doing what you're paid to do.

That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or
destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for
improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most sought
after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so crushed
as to no longer be able to perform.

Sound familiar?


What we are talking about is the long lost art of 'tact'.
Compliments roll off some people's tongues and sound plastic and
phoney.
The finish on that table that Robert talks about could have been
discussed in a more constructive manner.
"I can see the effort that went into that table, the finish, however,
could be enhanced to help bring out the beauty of the
work.".........."THIS is what I would suggest you try:...yadda, yadda,
yadda...."

Constructive criticism, a helpful hand, everybody wins.

Now, in the music business...LOL...life's a little different. One must
Clintonize one's possible competition. "You suck!" is a perfectly
normal way to respond to an upstart's performance. Take that sumbiatch
DOWN before he/she steals my gig.
Helpful hands and friendships are rare in the music business.
As David Clayton Thomas once said: "just play the notes, you're
nothing but a tube of ****ing paint to me, *I* am the artist."
It's an industry based on destruction... for the most part.

r

Swingman wrote:


wrote

Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
with a flooring trowel.)

In my opinion, Marks was wrong.

I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's
of the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear
in your story.

I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_
to make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's
was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly
won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how
wonderful their bad song/part is.

AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
mention doing what you're paid to do.

That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or
destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for
improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most
sought after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so
crushed as to no longer be able to perform.

Sound familiar?


Think music and woodworking are two different talents. In music, vocals or
composing you either have it or you don't. Woodworking, talent can be
taught or developed. A true woodworking artist takes time to develop. A
true musical artist is a god given talent.

So yes it is a good idea to let the less talented musician know right away
he sucks. Let the woodworker develop his talent without critical criticism.

Just my 2 sense.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586

Swingman wrote:
wrote

Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
with him, and his words cut really deep. ...

In my opinion, Marks was wrong.

I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in
your story.
....

Reading the story my take is the folks at the store and in the club are
probably at least equally at fault for taking excessive advantage of an
event for their own purposes...

--

On Apr 30, 6:13 am, "Swingman" wrote:

I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.

Nor do I. And as noted, maybe it was a bad day for him.

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in
your story.

I do have a good idea, and I have never liked "those kinds of guys".
One thing I learned over nearly 35 years of getting paid as a
professional woodworker is this: No matter how good you are, there is
always someone better.

With so many years in the trades, and with so many of them being self
employed (27.... crap!) I have done a great deal of carpentry work.
One thing I learned really well after a few years in the trades was a
proper perspective on the endless arena of woodworking. I have
learned that just because you can do one or two (or three) thing well,
it doesn't mean you are a master at all aspects.

In the bigger picture, I spent time working for a financial
institution managing their construction portfolio. So if a "Marks"
comes to me when I was in banking and cannot correctly calculate the
compounding per diem interest or APR on a floating rate interim loan
(which as you know is typical for most aspects of construction
financing), should I have belittled him?

I had those folks come in all the time with their HP12c calculators
and try like hell to figure out what their financing was costing them
when they had a building principal as project went on. When I saw
their calculations (which by the way, were NEVER right) I didn't make
them ashamed of their efforts.

The guys that went to meet Marks are not, were not, and don't intend
to be professionals. If they were, it would have been a totally
different situation. Personally, I keep my mouth shut as to what I
think of most people's work, unless they are working for me, or with
me. On my dime, I try to be as constructive as possible, as quick to
praise as I am to criticize, but the guys on the job ARE
professionals, and a thicker hide is needed when certain expectations
of quality are expected simply because they are pros.

I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_ to
make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's
was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly
won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how
wonderful their bad song/part is.

If they are asking you pointedly for your opinion as one professional
musician to another, you shouldn't fudge too much. I think you should
tell them the truth, and as unvarnished as possible without destroying
them. I have had many a woodworking compatriot strike out on their
own after doing a couple of nice jobs, only to find that one of the
real talents of being a professional woodworker is to be able to pay
one's bills.

AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
mention doing what you're paid to do.

That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or
destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for
improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most sought
after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so crushed
as to no longer be able to perform.

Sound familiar?

Yes it does. But we are talking about two different things. You are
writing about interfacing as one professional to another (or maybe to
an aspiring professional). I have had many a candid talk with fellow
professionals about different aspects of our own work, and I have no
problem admitting my own shortcomings in certain aspects of
woodworking.

For example, if I cut a roof, I can spend an extra week cutting in
valley rafters, jacks and compound cut soldier walls for tile. I can
get it done, but it is painful. I had a guy that worked for me for
years that loved to cut in roofs and took a lot of pride in cutting in
full hip roofs. He was easily 3-4 times faster than me. But, if we
needed to modify a or make a cabinet, he was totally lost.

Oversize crown molding was a mystery greater than Stonehenge to that
guy, and while I truly admired his skills at the beautiful hip roofs
he would cut (there was almost no cutting the sheathing to compensate
for an off cut, ever) he thought I was the better carpenter because I
could build/rebuild cabinets and build doors and frames from
scratch. We tried to help each other along in our deficiencies, but
actually had little luck. But that was one pro to another, done with
respect for one another's talents. No harm, no foul. We had been
around the block enough times to realize you can't excel at all
aspects of woodworking.

Marks' visit was a one time, few hour visit where he was facing a
serious case of leg rash from hero worship at best. He was not there
to instruct, critique, or judge projects. He was there to be the guy
on TV. If his audience had been students or fellow professionals,
then I probably wouldn't have cared. Most "artists" seem to be
arrogant insecure pricks, and poor behavior seems to be a hallmark of
accomplishment these days. I am not saying that describes Marks.

A revisit:

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
criticism of their own efforts

A good observation. But upon reflection it also extends to the psuedo
artists as well. I no longer participate in our local woodturning
club due to the unbridled snobbery those in the club show to each
other. I think the club should be an open door for all to participate
on all levels. Everyone should be encouraged to have fun and try
different things, no matter the success or failure.

It isn't that way though, as many of the guys in the club have been
"serious turners" for as much as five years! Say it ain't so! And by
the time they jangle their memory a little, add in a high school
semester of shop and watching Dave Hout on DIY, they can easily claim
ten years. So they have to be experts, right?

A grand lesson in humility was learned by them (too bad it didn't
stick) when we had a fantastic turner come in for a demo a couple of
years ago. He looked at some of the work on a table the guys had
brought for "judging" between themselves. He thought he was there to
"critique" not pick the best piece. So, instead of someone getting
bragging rights for a job well done, it went completely the other way.

He didn't want to know at first who did what. So he would hold up the
piece and say things like "I'm not sure what he was going for here, so
maybe someone should pipe in and tell me what they were trying to do",
or " I assume this was done on purpose ?!? ". One of our red faced
artists had to own up to their own work, and take the criticism. It
was done with some grace and tact, but the unvarnished truth was too
harsh for many.

Their mutual admiration society took a real hard hit, and as you
observed, the haughtiest of the artists were the most severely
wounded. They were OK the next meeting, but then in subsequent
meetings the decided they had been treated unfairly and that person
wouldn't be asked back. To me, he was a breath of fresh air.

I don't know when an "artist" becomes and "artist" but I hope I don't
ever become one. Seems too hard.

OK.... this time I mean it. Off the box.

Robert

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:12:26 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
with a flooring trowel.)



In my opinion, Marks was wrong.

I've never met him.

I get the impresssion from your post that he was being paid for a PR
visit. Certainly a different standard than if he was running his
school. Almost an imperative that one be constructive and courteous
with comments, particularly in a group of people of diverse skill
levels.

I've been around Norm Abram, and to a lesser extent, Scott Phillips,
for a number of paid PR sessions and with them socially before or
after the sessions. Despite the fact that they were confronted with a
full spectrum of personalities and skill levels (some I'm sure, more
skilled then they are), they were always gracious. And even with the
guard dropped, you never heard after the fact, "boy, what a bunch of
jerks, glad thats over".

From the part of the video I watched, I concluded that Marks was
through with sponsorship and out of the business of payment for PR.
Maybe that's a good thing, he may be too artistic and not have the
patience for it.

Frank

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

From the part of the video I watched, I concluded that Marks was
through with sponsorship and out of the business of payment for PR.
Maybe that's a good thing, he may be too artistic and not have the
patience for it.

The truly talented/artistic are often difficult at the best of times,
regardless of the business they're in.

Add in a bad day "on the road" and it could have just been "one of those
days", regretted by all. We all have them.

However, and strictly my opinion you understand, men who dye their hair at
55, and are artists to boot, well ...

.... you fill in the blanks.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I believe you have the type of attitude towards others the world really
needs to try and bring back. I know my woodworking is still on a novice
level, but a kind word from someone more accomplished sure encourages me to
continue. That kind word with helpful hints as the say is "priceless".

--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
wrote in message
...
You know Swing, that was a pretty good video. I was surprised to see
how accessible and easy going Marks was.

He came to our sunny town about three years ago shilling something for
Woodcraft. Here for the day only, it was treated as the second
coming. The boys of the woodworking club and the staff at WC were
positively giddy with excitement.

He got here, and by all accounts, he was abrupt and hurried. It was
obvious that it was an obligation. He did not want to share
woodworking stories with any of them, and made that clear. But he
really rubbed the woodworking club members the wrong way at his
reaction to a piece they brought forward for his blessing.

One of the guys had made one of Marks' tables, and had gotten so many
compliments on it that he decided to teach others how to make it.
(That meant he was now a woodworking instructor, right?) This guy had
made several of these tables along with his classes, and was feeling
pretty good about his work.

Without knowing who the instructor or artisan actually was, he looked
over the table and rendered a pretty seething commentary on how it was
made, how the joints were assembled, how the veneer trims were
installed and really hammered the finish.

Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
with a flooring trowel.)

Maybe he was rushed, maybe he didn't want to be there, maybe there was
trouble at home, who knows. But he cut so deeply that the guy quit
his instruction and won't teach anyone anything anymore.

In my opinion, Marks was wrong. There were all these older retirees,
younger hobby guys, garage woodworkers, etc., that were just looking
for a pat on the back. I know there are many that feel like the cold
light of truth is always the best way to view things, but I am not one
of them. Those guys knew there work wasn't perfect, they just wanted
a nod and a "man, that looks nice". They would have have been "proud
to bust" and had bragging rights for 10 years over a compliment.

And it isn't like these guys were even trying to make it as cabinet or
furniture makers. I get a charge out of some of them as they told me
that it takes so damn long for them to do anything that they would
starve to death unless they charged by the hour. But, the allow that
if they charged by the hour they would be rich!

Since I do this for a living like you do, I run into two different
kinds of folks that do woodworking. There are those that don't want
me to see their work. I always find ways to compliment them.
Always. They turn beet red when their SO says from the kitchen
"honey, did you show Robert the XXX you made?". I always finds
something positive to say. On the other hand, from time to time I am
surprised and run into a fellow that is as good as any professional,
so it is easy to be complimentary. I find that most non-professional
woodworkers have a good sense of humility, and are in the crafts to
enjoy them more than anything else.

The other kind is the one that cannot wait for me to see what he has
done. These were the guys that were at the Marks show at WC. And
yes, these guys get compliments, too. Why not? They aren't pros, and
don't pretend to be. Sometimes they ask for tips, sometimes I offer
one or two. It is always a positive experience. And if they turn out
to be clients, more than once I have had wives come to me and tell me
how much they appreciated me taking the time to examine a project and
pass on some compliments.

I think the art of a carefully crafted compliment is a good habit to
have, and one that is also lost these days. It costs nothing, and
given the right way you aren't pandering or insincere. But you can
sure do a lot of good with it.

I think it is interesting that Marks speaks highly of others and his
students and assistants, and he seemed sincere in the video since he
obviously didn't have to bring it up at all. And he was really nice
to that young guy and his wife.

Maybe when he came here he was just having a bad day.

Off the soap box now.

Robert

"asmurff" wrote in message
...
I believe you have the type of attitude towards others the world really
needs to try and bring back. I know my woodworking is still on a novice
level, but a kind word from someone more accomplished sure encourages me to
continue. That kind word with helpful hints as the say is "priceless".


It ain't just woodworking. Kind words are in a great shortage in this day
and age. There was a time when courtesy and polite conversation was
considered an art form.

Kind words are healing. Kind words are helpful and incouraging. Mean and
nasty isn't helpful or inspirational.

wrote:

snip

I think it is interesting that Marks speaks highly of others and his
students and assistants, and he seemed sincere in the video since he
obviously didn't have to bring it up at all. And he was really nice
to that young guy and his wife.

Maybe when he came here he was just having a bad day.

Off the soap box now.

Robert


David Marks sells plans for a number of the projects on his shows. I'd
assume that all of his designs are copyrighted.

David Marks runs his own private and group woodworking classes along
with teaching classes at select Woodcraft store.

I'm surprised Woodcraft allowed the person to bring the table in for
fear of a law suit.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:12:26 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[little snip]

He came to our sunny town about three years ago shilling something for
Woodcraft.

[big snip]

It makes me sad to hear this story. Although I can't count him among
those on my Christmas card list, I have met him and it is impossible
for me to connect the experience I had with the one you described.
Have to be two different people. I'm not arguing that it happened, it
just doesn't jibe with mine.

Just for background, a bunch of locals (Central Florida) who are
co-conspirators on some of the woodworking fora, were having a picnic
get together three or four years ago and it happened to be on a day
that Woodcraft had Marks in for some sessions. One of the locals got
the bright idea to invite him to join us after the day's sessions were
over, and he accepted (actually I think it was Victoria who accepted,
but it doesn't matter, they both showed up).

It was just as if he'd been one of the forum regulars, himself. There
wasn't a bit of pretense or arrogance. Just a regular guy. I'll bet he
stayed there four or five hours. Naturally, he was the most
experienced and professional guy there, not to mention celebrated, but
we all talked, shared stories, asked him about the show, he passed
around some pieces he had brought, but all in exactly the same way we
all (well, most) would sit around a fire if we wreckers got together.

As you say, he could have had a bad day, but even at that, it seems so
all out of proportion to the guy I sat and talked with all those
hours. And one of the other guys and I made a Krenov style plane that
afternoon before he arrived which we presented to him after dinner. It
had no finish on it, but it was a nice chunk of wood and the iron was
made out of an edger blade, but he acted as if Krenov himself had made
it for him.

You weren't clear on whether you were actually there or not, but there
is one other possibility (if you weren't) and that's that somehow
someone got their nose out of joint, and that the real story isn't
exactly the way it was told to you. Of course if you were there, I
accept that it's an accurate rendition, if not even more puzzling.

Well, I still like the David Marks I met. I probably wouldn't have
cared much for the one you described. It's too bad that stories like
this get told (true or not). It only takes one aberrant encounter to
seriously tarnish an image.




--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote

that Woodcraft had Marks in for some sessions. One of the locals got
the bright idea to invite him to join us after the day's sessions were
over, and he accepted (actually I think it was Victoria who accepted,
but it doesn't matter, they both showed up).

Based on both seeing, and listening briefly, to Mrs. Marks, I wouldn't
hesitate to go out on a limb and congratulate David for his luck in SWMBO
selection.

She comes across as a very classy lady.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/8/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 1, 9:36 pm, LRod wrote:

It was just as if he'd been one of the forum regulars, himself. There
wasn't a bit of pretense or arrogance. Just a regular guy. I'll bet he
stayed there four or five hours.

SNIP

Sounds like you had a fine experience with him. It sounds like a
personally rewarding experience.

SNIP

You weren't clear on whether you were actually there or not, but there
is one other possibility (if you weren't) and that's that somehow
someone got their nose out of joint, and that the real story isn't
exactly the way it was told to you. Of course if you were there, I
accept that it's an accurate rendition, if not even more puzzling.

To be fair, I was at the store when he was there, but not standing IN
FRONT of him when he made his remarks. It was easy to catch the
brusque attitude and some of the remarks. It was easier still for me
to talk to the store manager whom was a good friend, known to me to be
without exaggeration. To be blunt, he felt like they got screwed
because he was expecting Marks to be as you portray him. Marks was
still in the store when I started hearing how things went from the
manager and some of the other guys I know and trust.

Your point about someone's nose being out of joint was well stated and
pertinent. But to expand on that a bit, you can see the difference in
how he treated a plane made from an edger blade in your experience to
how things were handled when he was here. And again, I heard the same
story from they guys that were standing there when it was said, the
same exact remarks from 3 - 4 guys and the store manager. And it was
told with no time to rehearse as Marks was still in the store.

I was not part of their meeting because at the time I had no earthly
idea who Marks was. I don't have cable, and had never even seen him
on television until about 6 months ago. To this day I have only seen
about 10 of his shows, and I don't know that I have watched one from
start to finish. I was not there at the store to see him and didn't
know he was going to be there.

It was a rare trip to Woodcraft for some woodturning supplies and to
gab a bit with the asst. manager that is one of the finest woodworkers
I have ever met. Great guy, too.

So I had no feelings to get hurt, no star worship to crush, no ax to
grind, not looking for bragging right due to meeting him, and wasn't
looking for a new best friend.

I had no preconceived ideas of him (so no ulterior motives) and
frankly couldn't have cared less about him or why he was there. When
they told me Marks was coming I was interested due to the in store
buzz, but since there was not to be a demo of any type I was
uninterested to even find out who he was. When they told me he was
there as a guest of WC, I surmised he was just another corporate
shill. I caught small bits and pieces of his conversations, and I
wasn't really sure why he was there.

Well, I still like the David Marks I met. I probably wouldn't have
cared much for the one you described. It's too bad that stories like
this get told (true or not). It only takes one aberrant encounter to
seriously tarnish an image.

Not really. I think that all remarks made here were made with respect
for him and always regard the fact (Hey... I started it, too!) that he
may have simply had a bad day. Really, you know we all have them. I
didn't see anyone flame him, trash him, or belittle him in any way.
Everyone here seemed pretty damn civil if you ask me.

And what side of Marks do you think will be seen the most? A small
thread on a almost dead woodworking group that has had all of ten
people participate in it? A thread where nothing terrible or
horrifying has been exposed? No excitement here, that's for sure.

Or the side presented by him on that video that shows him as an easy
going, easy to talk to guy that started out making redwood tables? A
video that has no doubt been seen all over the world by who knows how
many people since it was distributed?

I think Marks is unscathed. Personally, I think that folks that have
fond memories of an encounter are unlikely to change their opinions of
someone they know and respect due to a contemplative commentary posted
on the internet.

Now the guy I would like to meet (as I have said here before) is
Norm. He has been to the WC store a couple of time here and once to a
woodworking show. But he is like a rock star, he has a lot of folks
around him all the time. But I did get to talk to some guys that sat
at the back of the store and had lunch with him, and they said he was
the nicest, most unassuming guy you would ever meet.

Although it is quite fashionable now to sneer at him and his
techniques, my opinion of him is undiminished. I don't care for his
finishing techniques, but hey.. they're his projects. But in respect
to him, regardless how many assistants he has, he has turned out some
great projects, and more importantly, inspired folks to get out in the
shop and do something for almost 20 years.

Now according to local lore, one of the things Norm mentioned when he
was here was that in the early days, he had NO help. He even swept up
at night. He did allow that he has help now as his schedule is so
full.

But think about it. Norm can hang a passage door, and even make it
for you. He can build kitchen cabinets, lawn furniture, different
styles of house furniture, build handy jigs, repair structural
framing, and build a blanket chest. That might be one season.

A park bench, a potting table, a grandfather clock, a baseball bat,
you name it. He has done more than anyone I know to build confidence
and inspire woodworkers to try just about anything.

Even though I have done all kinds of woodworking with my company (or
as an employee for a few of them) over the last 35 years for a
multitude of clients, I still watch Norm when I get a chance. I get a
kick out of him.

And still, after 20 years, I have never heard one whisper of anything
but great things about him.

My kinda guy.

Robert

Robert

" wrote:

You know Swing, that was a pretty good video. I was surprised to see
how accessible and easy going Marks was.

I had the opportunity to spend a day (it turned out to be a long day)
woodworking with him. He was as accessible and easy going as anybody could ask.
He also has a wicked sense of humor. But he doesn't pass out compliments like
gumdrops. -- Doug