Thinking that with all of the lumber I've acquired over the years from
individuals,
I have no real way of knowing how dry the wood is. So, this weekend
coming,
Woodcraft is having a sale. I think it's time for me to get a moisture
meter.

Any recommendations? Pinless, or not? What works for those who have
one?

MJ Wallace

On Apr 7, 11:16 am, "
wrote:
Thinking that with all of the lumber I've acquired over the years from
individuals,
I have no real way of knowing how dry the wood is. So, this weekend
coming,
Woodcraft is having a sale. I think it's time for me to get a moisture
meter.

Any recommendations? Pinless, or not? What works for those who have
one?

I have never bought a moisture meter, but I think a really high
quality model would be nice in some instances. I have fellow
woodworkers that bought inexpensive meters and didn't have great
success with them. We have had problems with our hardwood suppliers
selling us "case hardened wood" for a while now, and it creates more
problems on all levels than one should ever have with the materials.

So I researched what a good moisture meter should do, and how much it
should cost.

I thought I would save up some dough and buy a good one, but the only
ones that seem to be 100% reliable are the Lignomats and a German made
model or two. You need a meter that will accurately read more than
immediately below the surface of the contact material.

Oddly, in a trade magazine I read, the pins didn't provide and
advantage over the surface contacts when testing a smooth surface. So
for planed goods, either type of contact would work well. But for
rough surfaces, the pins excelled as you didn't get false readings
based on a dried bit or saw kerf under the contact.

My furniture making buddy at Woodcraft has used their meter and rated
it a "fair".

When I am ready to drop $300 or so on the Lignomat, I will buy with
confidence.

But.... here's the rub. We have only three or four hardwood suppliers
here in town. They are not national chains, so I am sure that they
probably buy at least part of their goods from the same distributors.
So say I go to a supplier and their wood is too wet; most likely if I
go to another supplier, his will be too.

I have done this enough times I am confident that the wood I buy will
be improperly dried. So at this stage of my hardwood using career, I
don't bother with the moisture meter at all. I buy the wood I need,
sticker it for about 6 - 8 months, and then use it. Since I buy
almost exclusively 4-5 quarters stock for my own personal use, it
works out well.

If I need hardwood for a client project right away though, I am up
against it. It is hit and miss. If you are doing this
professionally, get the Ligno. If you are doing this for fun, plan
your project and purchase your wood (it will only get more expensive
the longer you wait anyhow) and allow it to dry a little longer.

Just my 0.02.

Robert

wrote:

I have never bought a moisture meter, but I think a really high
quality model would be nice in some instances. I have fellow
woodworkers that bought inexpensive meters and didn't have great
success with them. We have had problems with our hardwood suppliers
selling us "case hardened wood" for a while now, and it creates more
problems on all levels than one should ever have with the materials.

So I researched what a good moisture meter should do, and how much it
should cost.


snip

Case hardening occurs when the wood is dried too rapidly and an "outer
shell" forms on the lumber. This "outer shell" does not prevent the
interior of the piece from drying but causes internal stresses in the
lumber. A moisture meter will not help in determining if the wood is
case hardened.

See:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XHA...YeJpyYQo&hl=en

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On Apr 7, 12:52 pm, Nova wrote:


Case hardening occurs when the wood is dried too rapidly and an "outer
shell" forms on the lumber. This "outer shell" does not prevent the
interior of the piece from drying but causes internal stresses in the
lumber. A moisture meter will not help in determining if the wood is
case hardened.

EXACTLY my point. Thanks for the clarification/amplification.

Also, it should be noted that on a thicker piece of material (average
reading depth penetration for different woods should be considered
before purchase) case hardening will give an incorrect reading of
overall moisture.

Robert

On Apr 7, 1:59 pm, ROY! wrote:


I'm not quite clear on whether case hardened stock will 'un-harden'
itself if left stickered for an additional 8 or so months.

I had instruction from a trusted source on this subject as I was ready
to burn my walnut in the barbecue pit after I gave up on it.

He is actually the one that suggested leaving it properly stored and
stickered until it is needed. As a furniture maker, he keeps stock on
hand that is stored in his shop for a year or so as routine. Her in
South Texas we do not have the great stands of hardwoods, or anything
close to them. There are patches of this and that,. but a trip to
Tennessee a few years ago convinced me that what we have for trees is
mostly scrub. Hardwood variety of any volume is non existent.

So all our hardwood is trucked in from different states and different
mills, and has been as long as I can remember. That has led a great
deal of us on the serious side to find out as much as we can about
drying, wood movement, and moisture management as possible.

In a cross section of a board, the perimeter dries first as it is the
part exposed to air/heat/air movement and all its subtleties. When
you have a "case hardened" board (there is a cool name for it the
lumber guys use) it is the beginning stages of drying, although it is
unevenly so. Resting and drying in a controlled environment will
finish the process correctly.

That has been my experience. The wood is still fine, it just isn't
ready to use.

Robert

Wood magazine did a trial on these a while back. Maybe it's on their
website.
A friend of mine has a Lignomat. He says it's one of the best. So
I bought a mid-priced one.
He has large shelves almost all the way around the edges his heated
shop, from about 6 1/2 feet up to 10 feet up. Anything he brings in and
stickers up there (up to 9 quarters, anyway, dries to 6-8 % in 6 weeks.
This is so predictable for him that he doesn't really have to measure
any more.
I used mine to measure many samples out in my unheated wood storage
buildiing where I have many species of hardwoods that have been air
dryimg, some since 1976. It's all 16%, last time I checked! This is
west central Wisconsin in Decemeber.
I was gonna tell you how I measure moisture content with heat and a
scale, but I figured that someone would find something wrong with the
way I do it, so you can guess how it might be done.

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------------

wrote:
Thinking that with all of the lumber I've acquired over the years from
individuals,
I have no real way of knowing how dry the wood is. So, this weekend
coming,
Woodcraft is having a sale. I think it's time for me to get a moisture
meter.

Any recommendations? Pinless, or not? What works for those who have
one?

MJ Wallace

wrote:

I have never bought a moisture meter, but I think a really high
quality model would be nice in some instances. I have fellow
woodworkers that bought inexpensive meters and didn't have great
success with them. We have had problems with our hardwood suppliers
selling us "case hardened wood" for a while now, and it creates more
problems on all levels than one should ever have with the materials.
snip

I know zilch about moisture meters, but since we are in the industrial
instrument business, will offer the following from that perspective:

Proper application is at least 90% of the success of an instrument
application.

There are two (2) types of instruments:

1) Those that work which is usually reflected in the price.

2) Those that do not work which are also usually reflected in the
price.

A word to the wise:

There ain't no free lunch.

Lew

wrote

I have done this enough times I am confident that the wood I buy will
be improperly dried. So at this stage of my hardwood using career, I
don't bother with the moisture meter at all. I buy the wood I need,
sticker it for about 6 - 8 months, and then use it. Since I buy
almost exclusively 4-5 quarters stock for my own personal use, it
works out well.

If I need hardwood for a client project right away though, I am up
against it. It is hit and miss.

This is a real lesson in local practices/economics. I can see some real
problems if a client needed something NOW and did not want to wait around
for months and months for the wood to dry properly.

What do you do when you get an impatient client who needs their product
yesterday? Talk sense into them? Build it with wet wood? Refer them to some
who has sufficient stock? Go pay big bucks for some of that precious dry
stock? Etc, etc??

wrote in message
But.... here's the rub. We have only three or four hardwood suppliers
here in town.

Only?????? The TWO near me are both 45 miles from me and in opposite
directions.

I've got the Ligno and very pleased with it. Here in Minnesota wood will
only go down to about 14% air drying but from that point depending upon
what type of wood I can put it in the kiln at 112 degrees for 10 days
and take it down to 7% some wood will go faster.
ross

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
But.... here's the rub. We have only three or four hardwood suppliers
here in town.

Only?????? The TWO near me are both 45 miles from me and in opposite
directions.

Well, the two closest I'm aware of are 200 miles in not quite opposite
directions...

--

On Apr 7, 8:22 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

Only?????? The TWO near me are both 45 miles from me and in opposite
directions.

I dunno. Maybe I expect a bit more from our fair city. With out
metropolitan area included, we are knocking on two million folks so I
am thinking since we also serve the lower part of the state for many
goods that we should have more.

One thing we don't have though, is the abundance and pricing of wood.
My BIL is from Ohio, and at last check he was paying $3.50 a bf for
good walnut, and $2 - 42.5 for maple. I don't know what species,
grade or quality, but anything maple around here starts at $4.50 a
bf. And walnut, if it can be found, will start as much as $7 a bf,
and that is a spot market price.

It isn't just playing the market down here. It is taking advantage.
All this started LONG before they could attack the oil/transportation
costs to it as a reason. They get their prices because they can.

My BIL tells me of magical places called "tree dumps" where they take
large old trees. I know what they are, but no one else around here
does. He has found cherry, oak, maple and walnut a the dump by his
house.
They mostly cut it up for firewood unless the logs are too big, then
they just leave them.

I have heard him talk of cutting permits, where the public can cut
fallen trees on public land for a $15 annual permit. He said most
just wait for the wood to show up at the dump since they can get the
logs with the branches cut off and the logs in manageable sizes.

If you are from my area of the map, you ask yourself "How can any
place have that much hardwood? They put the fallen, cut logs in a
dump?"

I know it has been that way up there for too many years to count, but
never around here. An industrious soul like myself would be glad to
go cut my own wood if someone would let me. We just don't have it
here. That means that even at exorbitant prices, we still run out!

Robert

On Apr 7, 6:14 pm, "Lee Michaels" wrote:

This is a real lesson in local practices/economics. I can see some real
problems if a client needed something NOW and did not want to wait around
for months and months for the wood to dry properly.

What do you do when you get an impatient client who needs their product
yesterday? Talk sense into them?

I try my best to talk some into them. Sometimes it works, and
sometimes it doesn't. You can only do so much, and since I do this
for a living I have to rely on what I can get my hands on.

Sometimes I can get better product at one place than another.
Sometimes I pay a premium and then some to get what I want. The price
is reflected in what I am building. I have a lot of walnut and maple
stashed and ready to go as I have one client that likes display cases
made from Black Walnut. Not my favorite wood, but he loves it. So I
keep some in the shop in the rafters for his phone calls.

Build it with wet wood? Refer them to some
who has sufficient stock? Go pay big bucks for some of that precious dry
stock?

I won't work with wet wood. I have had too much movement in glue ups,
sanding problems, and have had finsihes discolor from the sap
moisture. No more. If I can get good stuff I will. But I have my
limits, and so do my clients.

Plan "B" is to dye the wood, and that would put the wood cost down to
maple, but boost it back up for the cost of dye. So if I can get good
maple and dye it, I will present that as an option.

And believe it or not, some are willing to wait...

Robert

skreiv:
Thinking that with all of the lumber I've acquired over the years from
individuals,
I have no real way of knowing how dry the wood is. So, this weekend
coming,
Woodcraft is having a sale. I think it's time for me to get a moisture
meter.

Any recommendations? Pinless, or not? What works for those who have
one?

I'm very happy with the Wagner MMC220 model (pinless).
It's quiet expensive, but worth it in the long run imo.

in article
,
at wrote on 4/7/08 10:16 AM:

Thinking that with all of the lumber I've acquired over the years from
individuals,
I have no real way of knowing how dry the wood is. So, this weekend
coming,
Woodcraft is having a sale. I think it's time for me to get a moisture
meter.

Any recommendations? Pinless, or not? What works for those who have
one?

MJ Wallace


Let's start with pin and pinless
are you getting rough sawn stuff, surfaced one face or S4S?
- if rough sawn or one face - pin works without having
to plane a flat smooth are (you do take a block plane
with you when getting rough sawn right. Advantage to
"pin" meters is that some come with a pin probe that
plugs into the meter. Let's you measure with just the
pins - no need for space for the meter as well

- if one face is surfaced a pinless is fine - doesn't
leave holes - even little ones - in your board and
usually comes with an LED display so you don't have
to read - and remember - an analog meter

I've go the Wagner 205 Digital Shop Line pinless meter.
MC range is good, depth and area for reading is good,
user interface is OK and intuitive. I've got to input
the specific gravity of the wood I want to measure,
which, if it isn't in the provided tables can be
real fun. ALL these meters require either adjusting
the raw meter reading, or telling the meter the SG
of the wood you want to measure.

And there's the rub. Wood sellers seldom use the
latin / scientific name of the wood they're selling,
and the "common names" they do use may be of little
use when trying to identify the SG.

Case in point that I'm STILL trying to find an
answer for - "English Sycamore". Now "English
Sycamore" is NOT a sycamore at all, but rather,
is in the "acer" family, which includes all the
true maples. But there are THREE species of
maple which have the characteristics of the
"English Sycamore" I have. BUT - their range
of SG goes from about 0.49 to 0.69. The resulting
range of MC using the high and low values is
great enough to make the reading almost useless.

If you'll be working with common woods used
for furniture making - oak, cherry, walnut
and maple (if you KNOW which maple it is)
and not the off the wall ones, OR - some of
the "exotics - probably any meter over $150
will do the job you have for it.

Would probably be a good idea to get Hoadley's
book all about wood - for furniture makers.
Will answer most of your questions and
give you a pretty good understanding of
the material you're playing with

charlie b

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
in article
,
at wrote on 4/7/08 10:16 AM:

Thinking that with all of the lumber I've acquired over the years from
individuals,
I have no real way of knowing how dry the wood is. So, this weekend
coming,
Woodcraft is having a sale. I think it's time for me to get a moisture
meter.

Any recommendations? Pinless, or not? What works for those who have
one?

MJ Wallace


Let's start with pin and pinless
are you getting rough sawn stuff, surfaced one face or S4S?
- if rough sawn or one face - pin works without having
to plane a flat smooth are (you do take a block plane
with you when getting rough sawn right. Advantage to
"pin" meters is that some come with a pin probe that
plugs into the meter. Let's you measure with just the
pins - no need for space for the meter as well

- if one face is surfaced a pinless is fine - doesn't
leave holes - even little ones - in your board and
usually comes with an LED display so you don't have
to read - and remember - an analog meter

I've go the Wagner 205 Digital Shop Line pinless meter.
MC range is good, depth and area for reading is good,
user interface is OK and intuitive. I've got to input
the specific gravity of the wood I want to measure,
which, if it isn't in the provided tables can be
real fun. ALL these meters require either adjusting
the raw meter reading, or telling the meter the SG
of the wood you want to measure.

And there's the rub. Wood sellers seldom use the
latin / scientific name of the wood they're selling,
and the "common names" they do use may be of little
use when trying to identify the SG.

Case in point that I'm STILL trying to find an
answer for - "English Sycamore". Now "English
Sycamore" is NOT a sycamore at all, but rather,
is in the "acer" family, which includes all the
true maples. But there are THREE species of
maple which have the characteristics of the
"English Sycamore" I have. BUT - their range
of SG goes from about 0.49 to 0.69. The resulting
range of MC using the high and low values is
great enough to make the reading almost useless.

If you'll be working with common woods used
for furniture making - oak, cherry, walnut
and maple (if you KNOW which maple it is)
and not the off the wall ones, OR - some of
the "exotics - probably any meter over $150
will do the job you have for it.

Would probably be a good idea to get Hoadley's
book all about wood - for furniture makers.
Will answer most of your questions and
give you a pretty good understanding of
the material you're playing with


Charlie,
Regarding your troubles with "English sycamore", was wondering if this would
work?
get a small sample of the wood
dry it in an oven until it's truly dry (maybe determined by no further
change in reading of the meter?)
use the resulting meter reading to determine the SG, and therefore the
particular species of maple
Kerry

Charlie,
Regarding your troubles with "English sycamore", was wondering if this would
work?
get a small sample of the wood
dry it in an oven until it's truly dry (maybe determined by no further
change in reading of the meter?)
use the resulting meter reading to determine the SG, and therefore the
particular species of maple
Kerry

Forehead slapping sound - DUH! Now why didn't that occur to me?
Tunnel vision is going to be my excuse. THANKS!

charlie b

Thinking that with all of the lumber I've acquired over the years from
individuals,
I have no real way of knowing how dry the wood is. So, this weekend
coming,
Woodcraft is having a sale. I think it's time for me to get a moisture
meter.

Any recommendations? Pinless, or not? What works for those who have
one?

MJ Wallace

I have a pin-type and it really comes in handy when buying wood and
drying wood. Mine has a chart to set the meter for two wood
categories. I date my lumber and write the moisture percentage on
the wood.