Just picked this up:

http://tinyurl.com/34exgz

Anyone wanting to buy Festool, you should get it now. I know they
had a price increase recently that scared a lot of people, but they
are now closing ranks. I am guessing this will go the way of another
(German manufacturer) Stihl chainsaws and a few other choice tools
that want to tightly control their product and its bottom line.

This is a great move for Festool as it makes sure there will never be
price competition on their tools, parts, service, etc., so they can
price as they want. It should cut down on their distribution costs
as it will be able to drop ship dealers what they want.to send them.
With a locked down system following the Stihl model, I can only
imagine what tool repairs and parts will cost. My DeWalt/Milwaukee/
Porter Cable authorized repair center here is already $75 bucks an
hour. Following the Festool pricing model, I can't imagine what
"factory authorized service" will cost.

I know they told me at WoodCraft a couple of weeks ago that they
cannot keep the Domino or the Rotex sanders on the shelf no matter how
many they get. But they can't sell the circular saw, router, jig saw
or other tools nearly as well. Yet when they buy the Dominoes, they
are forced to buy a certain amount of other products as well.

Can't wait to see how long Woodcraft holds onto that product line when
they are forced to sell $1400 Domino machines and $700 6" sanders.

And wait until you have to buy a full Systainer system with
accessories with every purchase.

I wonder if they will do to Festool what they did to Akeda.
Absolutely sell the hell out of the product for a few years, support
it in every way, and when they do get their margins for one reason or
another, they drop the line.

I noticed too, that Amazon is already taking off all Festool products,
including the ones from affiliates.

That can't be good. Get 'em while they're hot!

Robert

wrote:
Just picked this up:

http://tinyurl.com/34exgz

Anyone wanting to buy Festool, you should get it now. I know they
had a price increase recently that scared a lot of people, but they
are now closing ranks. I am guessing this will go the way of
another
(German manufacturer) Stihl chainsaws and a few other choice tools
that want to tightly control their product and its bottom line.

This is a great move for Festool as it makes sure there will never
be
price competition on their tools, parts, service, etc., so they can
price as they want. It should cut down on their distribution costs
as it will be able to drop ship dealers what they want.to send them.
With a locked down system following the Stihl model, I can only
imagine what tool repairs and parts will cost. My DeWalt/Milwaukee/
Porter Cable authorized repair center here is already $75 bucks an
hour. Following the Festool pricing model, I can't imagine what
"factory authorized service" will cost.

I know they told me at WoodCraft a couple of weeks ago that they
cannot keep the Domino or the Rotex sanders on the shelf no matter
how
many they get. But they can't sell the circular saw, router, jig
saw
or other tools nearly as well. Yet when they buy the Dominoes, they
are forced to buy a certain amount of other products as well.

Can't wait to see how long Woodcraft holds onto that product line
when
they are forced to sell $1400 Domino machines and $700 6" sanders.

And wait until you have to buy a full Systainer system with
accessories with every purchase.

I wonder if they will do to Festool what they did to Akeda.
Absolutely sell the hell out of the product for a few years, support
it in every way, and when they do get their margins for one reason
or
another, they drop the line.

I noticed too, that Amazon is already taking off all Festool
products,
including the ones from affiliates.

That can't be good. Get 'em while they're hot!

How are you getting all that from a statement that Festool will no
longer sell directly to end users?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

wrote in message
...
Just picked this up:

http://tinyurl.com/34exgz

Anyone wanting to buy Festool, you should get it now. I know they
had a price increase recently that scared a lot of people, but they
are now closing ranks. I am guessing this will go the way of another
(German manufacturer) Stihl chainsaws and a few other choice tools
that want to tightly control their product and its bottom line.

IMHO I view this as a boost to the retailers that carry the products. Now
that I can buy Festool at 4 locations within 15 minutes of my home I can
more easily find Festool than Milwaukee, DeWalt, etc. Festool has been
around for quite some time but has not really pushed the brand name like
they have in the last couple of years. I had always heard of Festool but
don't recall touching one until early last year. I think that now that the
network has been developed there is really no need to deal with the "home
office" to find the product. Personally if I was a retailer I would not
want to be competing with my supplier.
I would be very suprised if the dealers did not know that this was going to
happen when they signed up.


This is a great move for Festool as it makes sure there will never be
price competition on their tools, parts, service, etc., so they can
price as they want.

This is the only way I have ever known Festool to operate, but then again I
have only been looking closely at the line for the past couple of years. In
a way I like and respect the fixed pricing. It guarantees you that your
local retailer will not be higher than the guy across town or the guy on the
internet. It is easier for your local supplier to get and keep your Festool
business and you dont have to worry about paying more from your local guy
over the guy across town. While the pricing can be high, you can rest
assured that where ever you buy it will be the best price that you can get.
Anyway you will still be able to buy direct for most anything except the
initial purchase of a tool if you choose to do that.


It should cut down on their distribution costs
as it will be able to drop ship dealers what they want.to send them.
With a locked down system following the Stihl model, I can only
imagine what tool repairs and parts will cost. My DeWalt/Milwaukee/
Porter Cable authorized repair center here is already $75 bucks an
hour. Following the Festool pricing model, I can't imagine what
"factory authorized service" will cost.

I'm not sure I follow.


I know they told me at WoodCraft a couple of weeks ago that they
cannot keep the Domino or the Rotex sanders on the shelf no matter how
many they get. But they can't sell the circular saw, router, jig saw
or other tools nearly as well. Yet when they buy the Dominoes, they
are forced to buy a certain amount of other products as well.

Could it be that Woodcraft makes the different Woodcraft stores buy a
certain amount? IIRC the individual Woodcrafts store are obligated to buy a
certain amount of product directly from Woodcraft.


Can't wait to see how long Woodcraft holds onto that product line when
they are forced to sell $1400 Domino machines and $700 6" sanders.

And wait until you have to buy a full Systainer system with
accessories with every purchase.

I wonder if they will do to Festool what they did to Akeda.
Absolutely sell the hell out of the product for a few years, support
it in every way, and when they do get their margins for one reason or
another, they drop the line.

I noticed too, that Amazon is already taking off all Festool products,
including the ones from affiliates.

I can see that because of the large network of dealers, now that Amazon is
at a disadvantage because they have to ship to you rather than you being
able to go to the local dealer and getting the tool, and they have no price
advantage.


That can't be good. Get 'em while they're hot!

Either way, Woodcraft is only 1 of 4 or 5 different suppliers that I know of
that handles Festool within a few minutes of my house.

Time will tell.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
wrote:

How are you getting all that from a statement that Festool will no
longer sell directly to end users?



Did you miss this lone?

We will continue to offer spare parts and repair service to you directly
after April 1st, 2008, in order to guarantee our commitment to the best
service in the industry.

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 10:50:38 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Just picked this up:

http://tinyurl.com/34exgz



Curious. Was the price of a tool from Festool USA direct normally
lower than the price at the retailer?

I ask because that is not normally the case. Normally, if a
distributor is asked to tie up dollars in inventory, service parts,
and provide shelf space and advertising, co-op or otherwise, there is
usually an agreement that they will not be undercut by direct sales
from those they represent.

I would think the cost of the tools will depend on how much
competition is in the distribution chain and any MAP agreements the
distributors have with Festool.

Frank

Leon wrote:
....
Either way, Woodcraft is only 1 of 4 or 5 different suppliers that I know of
that handles Festool within a few minutes of my house.

That's fine for those in major metro areas -- there's no distributor
within 250 miles I'm aware of so if can't go Amazon or similar w/ the
included regular shipping, I'm definitely out of the market--not that I
think they're worth the price differential, anyway for anything that's
not absolutely unique (and I don't much like loose tenons as a generally
philosophy, anyway, but that's just me... )...

--

On Mar 7, 2:37*pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 10:50:38 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
Just picked this up:

*http://tinyurl.com/34exgz

Curious. *Was the price of a tool from Festool USA direct normally
lower than the price at the retailer? *

I ask because that is not normally the case. *Normally, if a
distributor is asked to tie up dollars in inventory, service parts,
and provide shelf space and advertising, co-op or otherwise, there is
usually an agreement that they will not be undercut by direct sales
from those they represent.


That would be suicide from a marketing stand point. Where would the
incentive be?
At a grass roots level, my countertop business will charge full-pop to
a retail customer.
The customer then has the opportunity to try to get a better deal from
one of my dealers without my company having the unfair advantage.
The dealer then gets to make a choice as to how much to give away from
his profit margin.
He also knows that my cost to him will give him a healthy bit of room
to move.
I will everything I can to make sure the dealer gets the gig because
he will be calling me again and again. One retail customer is just
that.. one retail customer.
Large projects, like the new hospital in town, I deal with directly,
regardless.

I think Festool understands the concept of a 'marketing honeymoon'
quite well. They were in control of their reputation from the
beginning, had a handle on production quota, and now they think it is
time to have the harvest before the economy goes for a complete ****.
Making hay while the sun shines, because it is going to be ****-down
rain in 6 months.

Besides, price-fixing is frowned upon by the regulators and that wick
has been burning for a while.

That's just what it looks like from where I am sitting.

If Festool is going to force quota, the price and profit will collapse
because the retailers under fire from their competitors will start
discounting to the point they won't make any money.
Honeymoon is over. Next!

dpb wrote:
Leon wrote:
...
Either way, Woodcraft is only 1 of 4 or 5 different suppliers that
I
know of that handles Festool within a few minutes of my house.

That's fine for those in major metro areas -- there's no distributor
within 250 miles I'm aware of so if can't go Amazon or similar w/
the
included regular shipping, I'm definitely out of the market--not
that
I think they're worth the price differential, anyway for anything
that's not absolutely unique (and I don't much like loose tenons as
a
generally philosophy, anyway, but that's just me... )...

Come on, if you can afford 700 bucks for the tool then 20 bucks for
shipping isn't going to break you.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
dpb wrote:
Leon wrote:
...
Either way, Woodcraft is only 1 of 4 or 5 different suppliers that
I
know of that handles Festool within a few minutes of my house.
That's fine for those in major metro areas -- there's no distributor
within 250 miles I'm aware of so if can't go Amazon or similar w/
the
included regular shipping, I'm definitely out of the market--not
that
I think they're worth the price differential, anyway for anything
that's not absolutely unique (and I don't much like loose tenons as
a
generally philosophy, anyway, but that's just me... )...

Come on, if you can afford 700 bucks for the tool then 20 bucks for
shipping isn't going to break you.



--

On Mar 7, 1:50 pm, "
wrote:
Just picked this up:

http://tinyurl.com/34exgz
....

That can't be good. Get 'em while they're hot!

Robert

Interesting in that the closest dealer to me is called "The Best
Things", where the connoisseur shops!

That will give you and indication of where there pricing is going.

Not that I was planning on buying any Festool products anyway.

Chris

wrote...
Just picked this up:

http://tinyurl.com/34exgz

Anyone wanting to buy Festool, you should get it now. I know they
had a price increase recently that scared a lot of people, but they
are now closing ranks.

Not to worry.

Many years ago I was employed by GE in what was known as "Agency &
Distributor Sales".

The "Agency" part of the business covered parts of the business that sold
products directly to the end customer and paid the distributor a commission.

The "Distributor" part of the business covered products sold to a franchised
distributor, who then resold them to the end market.

The free market was best served by selling to distribution since
distributors were free to sell at whatever price they deemed best.

It took about 5-10 years, but ALL those agency products were converted to
distributor products, and everybody benefited. GE, the distributors, and the
customers.

Agency sales works in the real estate, yacht and a few other markets, but by
and large, distribution, left to freely compete in the market place, serves
everyone more effectively and at over all lower cost.


Lew

On Mar 7, 12:50*pm, "
wrote:
Just picked this up:

*http://tinyurl.com/34exgz

Anyone wanting to buy Festool, you should get it now. *I know they
had *a price increase recently that scared a lot of people, but they
are now closing ranks. *I am guessing this will go the way of another
(German manufacturer) Stihl chainsaws and a few other choice tools
that want to tightly control their product and its bottom line.

This is a great move for Festool as it makes sure there will never be
price competition on their tools, parts, service, etc., so they can
price as they want. * It should cut down on their distribution costs
as it will be able to drop ship dealers what they want.to send them.
With a locked down system following the Stihl model, I can only
imagine what tool repairs and parts will cost. *My DeWalt/Milwaukee/
Porter Cable authorized repair center here is already $75 bucks an
hour. *Following the Festool pricing model, I can't imagine what
"factory authorized service" will cost.

I know they told me at WoodCraft a couple of weeks ago that they
cannot keep the Domino or the Rotex sanders on the shelf no matter how
many they get. *But they can't sell the circular saw, router, jig saw
or other tools nearly as well. *Yet when they buy the Dominoes, they
are forced to buy a certain amount of other *products as well.

Can't wait to see how long Woodcraft holds onto that product line when
they are forced to sell $1400 Domino machines and $700 6" sanders.

And wait until you have to buy a full Systainer system with
accessories with every purchase.

I wonder if they will do to Festool what they did to Akeda.
Absolutely sell the hell out of the product for a few years, support
it in every way, and when they do get their margins for one reason or
another, they drop the line.

I noticed too, that Amazon is already taking off all Festool products,
including the ones from affiliates.

That can't be good. *Get 'em while they're hot!

Robert

As others have said, how are you reading so much into their decision
not to sell their tools direct to the customer? Many companies do it
this way. Can you call up DeWalt or Jet and buy a tool direct from
them? No, all of their products are sold through their dealer
network. But I think you can get parts from Jet. And Grizzly uses
the opposite method of having no dealers and you can only buy direct
through them. Seems to me both work.

Seems to me no one is harmed. Woodcraft and Japan Woodworker and many
other Festool vendors sell the tools online for the same price.
Festool USA was just competing with its numerous vendors who sell
online. And for the people who are crying because Amazon does not
have Festool anymore, big deal. Japan Woodworker sells the tools and
has free shipping on Festool last time I got its catalog. And no
sales tax if you're outside California. This is where I will buy
Festool from in the future if I buy more Festool. Cheaper than
locally by 6% sales tax and the shipping charge the store charges me
to get a Festool product. No one in the US is unable to buy a Festool
product if they want it. Delivered right to their door for the same
cost as buying it anywhere.

Festool I'm sure uses the various legal means to fix prices. Price
fixing isn't illegal if done in ways the law allows. I'm a big fan of
price competition but for Festool its not really an option. Oh well.
As for the tools getting even more expensive, they could do that
anyday of the week whether they sell them direct to the customer or
not. None of the numerous, numerous Festool vendors is being closed
down because Festool stops selling direct to the customer. So the
competition, or lack thereof, remains the same.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:
...
Either way, Woodcraft is only 1 of 4 or 5 different suppliers that I know
of that handles Festool within a few minutes of my house.

That's fine for those in major metro areas -- there's no distributor
within 250 miles I'm aware of so if can't go Amazon or similar w/ the
included regular shipping, I'm definitely out of the market--not that I
think they're worth the price differential, anyway for anything that's not
absolutely unique (and I don't much like loose tenons as a generally
philosophy, anyway, but that's just me... )...

--

AAMOF I have seen several of on line dealers offering free shipping on
Festool products in the past providing a minimum was spent. IIRC any tool
would be a minimum spent. IIRC McFeeleys was one.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 10:50:38 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Just picked this up:

http://tinyurl.com/34exgz



Curious. Was the price of a tool from Festool USA direct normally
lower than the price at the retailer?

No. Everyone is/was the same price except with the discount introductory
price on new tools.

wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 1:50 pm, "
wrote:
Just picked this up:

http://tinyurl.com/34exgz
...

That can't be good. Get 'em while they're hot!

Robert

Interesting in that the closest dealer to me is called "The Best
Things", where the connoisseur shops!

That will give you and indication of where there pricing is going.

Not that I was planning on buying any Festool products anyway.

Chris


Actually I doubt any price increase will be seen over NORMAL increases.
Buying local is of no advantage of buying direct and buying direct is
probably more expensive with shipping added over local. If Festool cannot
compete in the market place with other brands the price MIGHT come down.

wrote in message
...
Snip


Festool I'm sure uses the various legal means to fix prices. Price
fixing isn't illegal if done in ways the law allows.

And this is not really price fixing either as there are alternative brands
available. If all brand tool manufacturers got together and said all 3/8"
drills will be priced at $100, that would be price fixing. GM's Saturn has
specific pricing also.




I'm a big fan of
price competition but for Festool its not really an option. Oh well.
As for the tools getting even more expensive, they could do that
anyday of the week whether they sell them direct to the customer or
not. None of the numerous, numerous Festool vendors is being closed
down because Festool stops selling direct to the customer. So the
competition, or lack thereof, remains the same.

Exactly

On Fri, 07 Mar 2008 13:47:57 -0600, dpb wrote:

Leon wrote:
...
Either way, Woodcraft is only 1 of 4 or 5 different suppliers that I know of
that handles Festool within a few minutes of my house.

That's fine for those in major metro areas -- there's no distributor
within 250 miles I'm aware of so if can't go Amazon or similar w/ the
included regular shipping, I'm definitely out of the market--not that I
think they're worth the price differential, anyway for anything that's
not absolutely unique (and I don't much like loose tenons as a generally
philosophy, anyway, but that's just me... )...

McFeeley's ships Festool everywhere.

On Mar 7, 1:37 pm, "Leon" wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message

...

wrote:

How are you getting all that from a statement that Festool will no
longer sell directly to end users?

Did you miss this lone?

We will continue to offer spare parts and repair service to you directly
after April 1st, 2008, in order to guarantee our commitment to the best
service in the industry.

Don't know if that was pointed at me or Sr. Clarke, but I missed it.

Good for them.

Robert

On Mar 7, 5:45*pm, "
wrote:


*Price fixing isn't illegal if done in ways the law allows. *

*aghast*

On Mar 7, 2:14 pm, Robatoy wrote:

I think Festool understands the concept of a 'marketing honeymoon'
quite well. They were in control of their reputation from the
beginning, had a handle on production quota, and now they think it is
time to have the harvest before the economy goes for a complete ****.
Making hay while the sun shines, because it is going to be ****-down
rain in 6 months.

Besides, price-fixing is frowned upon by the regulators and that wick
has been burning for a while.

That's just what it looks like from where I am sitting.

If Festool is going to force quota, the price and profit will collapse
because the retailers under fire from their competitors will start
discounting to the point they won't make any money.
Honeymoon is over. Next!

AMEN! Can I get a witness?

Out of all the tools I own, all the way back to my Millers Falls,
Bluegrass, etc., I have never, ever seen a tool maker "up" the quality
of their tools, except Jet. They were the Rikon of their day when
they were in blue wardrobe, probably even less quality than that.

Large Tool makers all go one of three philosophical ways in their life
cycle:

1) We will make good tools, never change, and hope we survive and do
well. BUT, we will NOT sacrifice our quality.
Example: Lie Nieson, Starret, Mitutoyo, (and for now, Festooll) etc.

2) We can make good tools, but we want a bigger spread on the margins,
and we need more units out to make that. The market will only take so
much, so our margins will come up by making the tools lesser quality
in manufacturing and materials. Example: DeWalt, Porter Cable, etc.

3) Somewhere in between #1 and #2.

I think people have too much of an emotional attachment to their tools
and forget these manufacturers are just that. They are moving units
through a system, not making dream tools. If the product is good, the
margins are good, and the market it there, it is a home run. But for
all these guys care, they could be making bags of pancake batter.

There is no ancient European guild of craftsmen that guide the tool
design for any of these companies, they are just selling widgets.

I simply don't believe that Festool will be any different that the
others that have put themselves in this position. Sooner or later
there will be some friggin' in the riggin'.

Honeymoon is over. Next!

I'm betting on Fein. You?

They are one of the largest tool makers in Europe with several
manufacturing facilities. Revamp the line, come up with some spiffy
new colors, balance and clean up the cast parts a little and who knows
what could happen.

I guess the best thing about the Festool invasion is that it might get
some of the tool manufacturers off their butts and get the quality of
manufacture up.

Robert

On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "
wrote:

As others have said, how are you reading so much into their decision
not to sell their tools direct to the customer? Many companies do it
this way. Can you call up DeWalt or Jet and buy a tool direct from
them? No, all of their products are sold through their dealer
network. But I think you can get parts from Jet. And Grizzly uses
the opposite method of having no dealers and you can only buy direct
through them. Seems to me both work.

You are mixing two different things up. Festool will now be like
Tupperware used to be. If you want Tupperware, you buy from an
authorized dealer. Only. BEFORE any of this started Festool was
setting the prices to their retailers to protect their pricing and
marketing strategies. Festool has never gone after the broader
market, but once they have seen what they have here, they will
maximize this opportunity. Nothing wrong with that at all, I am just
waiting to see when the other foot will fall.

Jet, DeWalt, et al, never set the prices for their retailers, they
just made strong suggestions and gave guidance. That enabled
Woodcraft, Amazon, etc, to promote them with sales, pertinent give
away items, etc. So if Amazon bought 10,000 mini lathes, they could
not only sell the lathes at a discount, but because their pricing
strategy based on volume gave them an even better discount they gave
free shipping away as well. Other vendors were forced to be more
competitive too, when this happened.

Seems to me no one is harmed.

I didn't indicate that there was harm afoot. I do believe that in the
future Festool will continue their price increases on a whim to see
how much the market will bear. This won't hurt me one bit! Based on
the other companies that have done this (DuoFast comes immediately to
mind) it will be a "hide and watch" scenario to see what happens to
their quality. I hope it doesn't change, the tools seem to make a lot
of people happy.

What I was getting at when I posted was this: There will be no
Festool competition, period. Dealers, are dealers, are dealers. As I
said, "get 'em while they're hot". Now there is no hope of prices
going down, competition between vendors, special deals, etc. for the
public.

And again, no problem. I can see the value of some of their tools for
specific uses, but to pay that kind of money I would need to use the
tools they sell every day, hard all day, in a shop setting. I
wouldn't take their stuff out to a job on a regular basis. It maybe
engineered and manufactured much better than average, but their little
plastic cases still break just like any other tool.

At this point, those tools may indeed represent a fair value. But the
value is in the eye of the beholder. It will be interesting to see in
the next 24-36 months to see where this path takes them in the
marketplace, though.

Robert

wrote:
I know they told me at WoodCraft a couple of weeks ago that they
cannot keep the Domino or the Rotex sanders on the shelf no matter how
many they get. But they can't sell the circular saw, router, jig saw
or other tools nearly as well. Yet when they buy the Dominoes, they
are forced to buy a certain amount of other products as well.

Can't wait to see how long Woodcraft holds onto that product line when
they are forced to sell $1400 Domino machines and $700 6" sanders.


It's just a matter of time when the Domino will be copied by everybody's line
and we'll have some choice in the matter. I've lived without a Domino for 53
years; I guess a little while longer won't kill me. I'll get mine from
Milwaukee....



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

On Mar 7, 8:00 pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
wrote:

It's just a matter of time when the Domino will be copied by everybody's line
and we'll have some choice in the matter. I've lived without a Domino for 53
years; I guess a little while longer won't kill me. I'll get mine from
Milwaukee....

I believe that. I love a good tool, but I have also gone a ways down
the road without the Domino. Not that I wouldn't like to have one,
though!

I think Festool will ride the wave for a couple of more years, maybe
longer and they will either have some natural competition, or they
will license out the design. You know more than a few of those tools
have been taken apart and studied.

There was another tool that reminds me of the what COULD happen to the
Domino.

First, there was Lamello for the plate joiners when they were the
rage. Good old Norm. That was the first time I ever saw one being
used. Then DeWalt was in the fray. Other minor players came along.
Then PC came out with theirs. However, PC was sued as it was too
close to DeWalt's, so they revamped the line with a couple of tiny
changes. All of this happened in about 3 years, IIRC.

It's the cycle of an innovative tool, I think.

Robert

On Mar 7, 9:07*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 7, 8:00 pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
wrote:

It's just a matter of time when the Domino will be copied by everybody's line
and we'll have some choice in the matter. *I've lived without a Domino for 53
years; I guess a little while longer won't kill me. *I'll get mine from
Milwaukee....

I believe that. *I love a good tool, but I have also gone a ways down
the road without the Domino. *Not that I wouldn't like to have one,
though!

I think Festool will ride the wave for a couple of more years, maybe
longer and they will either have some natural competition, or they
will license out the design. *You know more than a few of those tools
have been taken apart and studied.

There was another tool that reminds me of the what COULD happen to the
Domino.

First, there was Lamello for the plate joiners when they were the
rage. *Good old Norm. * That was the first time I ever saw one being
used. *Then DeWalt was in the fray. *Other minor players came along.
Then PC came out with theirs. *However, PC was sued as it was too
close to DeWalt's, so they revamped the line with a couple of tiny
changes. *All of this happened in about 3 years, IIRC.

It's the cycle of an innovative tool, I think.

There is no doubt that Festool created a 're-adjustment' in the
industry.
They proved that innovation and quality will sell. Others have walked
that path before them.
Elu, Lamello, even Freud. Can we all pay tribute to the Ryobi AP 10?
Who created the first viable cordless drill? (Of any scale, I'd give
that one to Makita.)

Point is... some restaurants are so busy, nobody goes there anymore.
What to do, what to do...
okay... let's dress up our tools to sell....not to do the godamned
job.. but to SELL!
Lime green, Blue rubber overmolds...WTF????

PACKAGING!!! A whole whack of **** , all colour matched in a BOX with
TWELVE farking batteries!!! and LED's by the dozen!! Blue ones, white
ones, green ones.

Dammit, Martha... I like the LIME ones... yeah.. gimme the LIME ones
for my 68th birfday.. I will make you things!!! 48 FUKKIN VOLTS!!!!!!
*creams jeans* (made in China)

wrote:
On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "
wrote:

As others have said, how are you reading so much into their
decision
not to sell their tools direct to the customer? Many companies do
it
this way. Can you call up DeWalt or Jet and buy a tool direct from
them? No, all of their products are sold through their dealer
network. But I think you can get parts from Jet. And Grizzly uses
the opposite method of having no dealers and you can only buy
direct
through them. Seems to me both work.

You are mixing two different things up. Festool will now be like
Tupperware used to be. If you want Tupperware, you buy from an
authorized dealer. Only. BEFORE any of this started Festool was
setting the prices to their retailers to protect their pricing and
marketing strategies. Festool has never gone after the broader
market, but once they have seen what they have here, they will
maximize this opportunity. Nothing wrong with that at all, I am
just
waiting to see when the other foot will fall.

Jet, DeWalt, et al, never set the prices for their retailers, they
just made strong suggestions and gave guidance. That enabled
Woodcraft, Amazon, etc, to promote them with sales, pertinent give
away items, etc. So if Amazon bought 10,000 mini lathes, they could
not only sell the lathes at a discount, but because their pricing
strategy based on volume gave them an even better discount they gave
free shipping away as well. Other vendors were forced to be more
competitive too, when this happened.

Seems to me no one is harmed.

I didn't indicate that there was harm afoot. I do believe that in
the
future Festool will continue their price increases on a whim to see
how much the market will bear. This won't hurt me one bit! Based
on
the other companies that have done this (DuoFast comes immediately
to
mind) it will be a "hide and watch" scenario to see what happens to
their quality. I hope it doesn't change, the tools seem to make a
lot
of people happy.

What I was getting at when I posted was this: There will be no
Festool competition, period. Dealers, are dealers, are dealers. As
I
said, "get 'em while they're hot". Now there is no hope of prices
going down, competition between vendors, special deals, etc. for
the
public.

And again, no problem. I can see the value of some of their tools
for
specific uses, but to pay that kind of money I would need to use the
tools they sell every day, hard all day, in a shop setting. I
wouldn't take their stuff out to a job on a regular basis. It maybe
engineered and manufactured much better than average, but their
little
plastic cases still break just like any other tool.

At this point, those tools may indeed represent a fair value. But
the
value is in the eye of the beholder. It will be interesting to see
in
the next 24-36 months to see where this path takes them in the
marketplace, though.

I'm sorry but I still don't see where you're getting all this about
dealers this and dealers that and dealers the other. The announcement
didn't say a damned thing about any kind of change in "dealers", it
sais that Festool isn't going to sell directly to end users. If you
have some information about a change in policies regarding "dealers"
please provide a link to it.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

wrote in message
...

There was another tool that reminds me of the what COULD happen to the
Domino.

First, there was Lamello for the plate joiners when they were the
rage.

I think the Lamello was out quite a while before they caught on.

Good old Norm. That was the first time I ever saw one being
used. Then DeWalt was in the fray. Other minor players came along.
Then PC came out with theirs. However, PC was sued as it was too
close to DeWalt's, so they revamped the line with a couple of tiny
changes. All of this happened in about 3 years, IIRC.

Actually PC had a plate joiner out long before the DeWalt. The current
design that looks like the DeWalt is not the first version the PC came out
with. I bought the first design in 1990 and it was belt driven, Model 556
IIRC I recall only a few players when I bought my first. IIRC Lamello, PC,
Ryobi, and Makita were some of the first in the US.


It's the cycle of an innovative tool, I think.

I bet it is quite some time before the Domino is copied simply because of
patents.

On Mar 7, 9:21 pm, "Leon" wrote:


I think the Lamello was out quite a while before they caught on.

I saw this before when I was reading on the actual intent of making a
plate joiner. Betcha didn't know they went THIS far back!:

http://tinyurl.com/244jpy

They needed better marketing.


Actually PC had a plate joiner out long before the DeWalt. The current
design that looks like the DeWalt is not the first version the PC came out
with. I bought the first design in 1990 and it was belt driven, Model 556

You know, I thought they did, but I coudn't remember for sure. Wasn't
that first one a rather simple affair without a lot of adjustments?

I bet it is quite some time before the Domino is copied simply because of
patents.

Someone will come up with something, though. They may have a bit that
uses a spiral plunger that only goes back and forth, not moving like a
Domino does. Who knows. But whatever it is, it won't be too close as
the Domino bit action and the internal method of operation are
completely unique to my knowledge.

I will be looking for the Breadstick, a machine that cuts a rounded
9almost round) and uses little wooden connectors with a waffle pattern
on them that make them look like breadsticks. (NOT Dominoes!)

Cool.

Robert

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

wrote:
I know they told me at WoodCraft a couple of weeks ago that they
cannot keep the Domino or the Rotex sanders on the shelf no matter how
many they get. But they can't sell the circular saw, router, jig saw
or other tools nearly as well. Yet when they buy the Dominoes, they
are forced to buy a certain amount of other products as well.

Can't wait to see how long Woodcraft holds onto that product line when
they are forced to sell $1400 Domino machines and $700 6" sanders.


It's just a matter of time when the Domino will be copied by everybody's
line
and we'll have some choice in the matter. I've lived without a Domino for
53
years; I guess a little while longer won't kill me. I'll get mine from
Milwaukee....

Maybe the Milwaukee version will be scaled and calibrated in real people
units.

/just sayin'
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Mar 7, 8:56*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "
wrote:

As others have said, how are you reading so much into their
decision
not to sell their tools direct to the customer? *Many companies do
it
this way. *Can you call up DeWalt or Jet and buy a tool direct from
them? *No, all of their products are sold through their dealer
network. *But I think you can get parts from Jet. *And Grizzly uses
the opposite method of having no dealers and you can only buy
direct
through them. *Seems to me both work.

You are mixing two different things up. *Festool will now be like
Tupperware used to be. *If you want Tupperware, you buy from an
authorized dealer. *Only. *BEFORE any of this started Festool was
setting the prices to their retailers to protect their pricing and
marketing strategies. *Festool has never gone after the broader
market, but once they have seen what they have here, they will
maximize this opportunity. *Nothing wrong with that at all, I am
just
waiting to see when the other foot will fall.

Jet, DeWalt, et al, never set the prices for their retailers, they
just made strong suggestions and gave guidance. *That enabled
Woodcraft, Amazon, etc, to promote them with sales, pertinent give
away items, etc. *So if Amazon bought 10,000 mini lathes, they could
not only sell the lathes at a discount, but because their pricing
strategy based on volume gave them an even better discount they gave
free shipping away as well. * Other vendors were forced to be more
competitive too, when this happened.

Seems to me no one is harmed.

I didn't indicate that there was harm afoot. *I do believe that in
the
future Festool will continue their price increases on a whim to see
how much the market will bear. *This won't hurt me one bit! *Based
on
the other companies that have done this (DuoFast comes immediately
to
mind) it will be a "hide and watch" scenario to see what happens to
their quality. *I hope it doesn't change, the tools seem to make a
lot
of people happy.

What I was getting at when I posted was this: *There will be no
Festool competition, period. *Dealers, are dealers, are dealers. *As
I
said, "get 'em while they're hot". * Now there is no hope of prices
going down, competition between vendors, special deals, etc. *for
the
public.

And again, no problem. *I can see the value of some of their tools
for
specific uses, but to pay that kind of money I would need to use the
tools they sell every day, hard all day, in a shop setting. *I
wouldn't take their stuff out to a job on a regular basis. *It maybe
engineered and manufactured much better than average, but their
little
plastic cases still break just like any other tool.

At this point, those tools may indeed represent a fair value. *But
the
value is in the eye of the beholder. *It will be interesting to see
in
the next 24-36 months to see where this path takes them in the
marketplace, though.

I'm sorry but I still don't see where you're getting all this about
dealers this and dealers that and dealers the other. *The announcement
didn't say a damned thing about any kind of change in "dealers", it
sais that Festool isn't going to sell directly to end users. *If you
have some information about a change in policies regarding "dealers"
please provide a link to it.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree with you. As posted by nailshooter above:

"What I was getting at when I posted was this: There will be no
Festool competition, period. Dealers, are dealers, are dealers. As
I
said, "get 'em while they're hot". Now there is no hope of prices
going down, competition between vendors, special deals, etc. for the
public."

Festool competition? Hope of prices going down?

Festool competes with other companies producing tools. If you don't
like Festool's price, buy another brand of tool. Why would you ever
hope prices are going to go down? Festool has been successful in the
USA with setting the price its dealers can charge and will likely
enforce this rule whether they sell to the public or not. Why would
they change something that appears to have worked very well for them?
Make a good tool, set a fixed high price, sell lots of tools in the
USA to people with lots of disposable income. Where did this hope of
prices going down fantasy come from?

On Mar 8, 8:40 am, "
wrote:

SNIP

Make a good tool, set a fixed high price, sell lots of tools in the
USA to people with lots of disposable income. Where did this hope of
prices going down fantasy come from?

Uh, huh.

OK.

I know your type.

You're the guy that goes around telling little kids there is no Santa
Claus. No tooth Fairy. No Easter Bunny.

After seeing so many commercials from Obama about hope, I was just
starting to have some.

Thanks a lot. I guess I'll just go ahead and eat the eggs I was going
to dye this year.

Robert

" wrote in news:1dd5383c-
:

On Mar 8, 8:40 am, "
wrote:

SNIP

Make a good tool, set a fixed high price, sell lots of tools in the
USA to people with lots of disposable income. Where did this hope of
prices going down fantasy come from?

Uh, huh.

OK.

I know your type.

You're the guy that goes around telling little kids there is no Santa
Claus. No tooth Fairy. No Easter Bunny.

After seeing so many commercials from Obama about hope, I was just
starting to have some.

Thanks a lot. I guess I'll just go ahead and eat the eggs I was going
to dye this year.

Robert

Robert, there is hope, and then there is false hope. Ask any politician.
If Festool makes a tool that I can afford, and that is clearly better
than anything remotely comparable, why should I buy HF? Correct, I'm a
cheapskate, and I'll sand and plaster until it fits grin. But if I can
afford the Festool? Hmm, have to think about it. Maybe someone will
come up with something approaching the Festool, but cheaper. Wait, maybe
I then have to wait until my teeth don't hurt me anymore and my arthritis
has evaporated in the crematorium.

Better make Congress act responsibly in the meantime ...

Note the grin!
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Mar 8, 10:35 am, Han wrote:


Better make Congress act responsibly in the meantime ...

Note the grin!

Well... I thought I was the silly one believing in the Easter Bunny!

Congress + responsible?

I can sure see Old Saint Nick, I can't even imagine that one.

But I am glad to see I am not the only one with "hope".

Robert

wrote:

: What I was getting at when I posted was this: There will be no
: Festool competition, period.

What you're missing is that there neve WAS Festool price competition.
That's not their business model, and never has been.

Their decision to not sell directly from
the factory has zero, none, nada efect on this.


(I can buy a Scion anywhere in the country for the same price. Period.
Whether or not I can order one directly from the factory in
Japan is beside the point.)






Dealers, are dealers, are dealers. As I
: said, "get 'em while they're hot". Now there is no hope of prices
: going down, competition between vendors, special deals, etc. for the
: public.


Yup. Nor was there in the past. So what? Same thing for Lie-Nielson
planes.


-- Andy Barss

" wrote in news:a169f12a-
:

On Mar 8, 10:35 am, Han wrote:


Better make Congress act responsibly in the meantime ...

Note the grin!

Well... I thought I was the silly one believing in the Easter Bunny!

Congress + responsible?

I can sure see Old Saint Nick, I can't even imagine that one.

But I am glad to see I am not the only one with "hope".

Robert

Yeah!

The sad thing is that while the saying goes where there is a will, there
is a way. However, where is the way will make Congress responsible,
since there seems to be no way?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Andrew Barss wrote:
wrote:

What I was getting at when I posted was this: There will be no
Festool competition, period.

What you're missing is that there neve WAS Festool price
competition.
That's not their business model, and never has been.

Their decision to not sell directly from
the factory has zero, none, nada efect on this.


(I can buy a Scion anywhere in the country for the same price.
Period. Whether or not I can order one directly from the factory in
Japan is beside the point.)






Dealers, are dealers, are dealers. As I
said, "get 'em while they're hot". Now there is no hope of prices
going down, competition between vendors, special deals, etc. for
the
public.


Yup. Nor was there in the past. So what? Same thing for
Lie-Nielson
planes.

I'm starting to get the impression that nailshooter thinks that "no
direct sales by Festool" means "no online sales by anybody".

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mar 8, 11:18 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:

I'm starting to get the impression that nailshooter thinks that "no
direct sales by Festool" means "no online sales by anybody".

Noo....

Again, I was talking to the Easter Bunny, and he told me...

When Jet was resurrected from their great blue heap of crappy products
by Woodcraft, they had an exclusive agreement with them. If you
wanted Jet after they switched to ivory colored tools to remake
themselves and made a run at a good quality tools, you had to go to
Woodcraft.

I was looking at a Jet mini at the time (1997? 1998?), and it was
Woodcraft or no one. We had a couple of decent tool sellers here that
catered to industry, and they told me that there was some kind of
agreement with Woodcraft that kept the Jet machines out of their
hands.

When that agreement expired, everyone started to sell the products,
and in my opinion we all benefitted. About 6 years ago I helped a
friend outfit his shop, and he wanted all Jet tools. He loved them.
He bought a tablesaw, their big board planer, a monster drill press, a
6" jointer, and dust collection system all in one shot. By buying
from Amazon (the doors to free distribution being open) he saved
oaverall about $2200 over buying the same exact tools from Woodcraft,
and the tools were delivered to the door. Savings did not include
lack of delivery charges, local taxes, etc.

I still remember when you had to buy Porter Cable tools (when they
were black and highly polished aluminum) from an authorized dealer.
Only. The same with Milwaukee. The same with genuine Rockwell.

We had three or four dealers of Porter Cable and Rockwell here in town
back in the early/mid seventies, but only one Milwaukee dealer. Like
the Festool guys, I didn't get Milwaukee until I used them on the job
for a year or so. They were worth every penny to me since as a
commercial carpenter, I used the drill and saw all day long.

I defected due to their ever increasing prices, and their ridiculous
pricing on parts. The vendors and distributors were protected, but
better values were to be found as their own protectionism was too
pricey. I abandoned them, as did so many of my compatriots.

BUT....

When the pressure became so great from competition, all three of my
favorite tools changed their business models to survive. Two made it,
one didn't. They dropped the exclusive dealer arrangement, and simply
made the dealers buy certain amounts of certain things.
Example: my nailgun repair/fastener vendor sold me 3 Rockwell 315s.
He told me he had to wait as he had to buy them 5 at a time, and also
had a minimum $$ order.

Fair. Everyone has their pricing model. No one made me buy Rockwell
tools.

I did the same dance with Duo Fast. In the 70s it was the king of the
nailers. They got almost much more than I payed for my Spotnails guns
(Spotnail framer - $399, Duofast framer - $599) and they had to be
serviced and repaired at a cost by a Duofast dealer/fanchisee only.
Even to change an "O" ring, which in those days didn't last more than
30 days or so.

They made a lot of money for a while, but in the face of increasing
competition, they kept jacking their prices to make the exclusive
dealer/distributor network chain happy. They even went so far as to
buy all the old guns (or give credit towards new ones) to keep any
used or older guns off the market. They even had tiered pricing for
repairs based on how many guns you had!

Eventually, they priced themselves out of the market, and they went
away. They are now sold in the junk section of nailers in HD.

All that being said, let me try this again.

If you read this thread closely, you will see I don't care about the
tools (of which so many are defensive as if they were their own
children), it is the marketing decision. It is theirs as well, and I
respect that. If the value of the tool is there at that price level,
good for Festool, and good for the consumer. Obviously both sides of
that fence are in a good place as their business model is working
well.

If Festool flourishes, good for them. If they go broke, good for
them. If they make everyone in the food chain happy with their new
business model, good for them. It simply doesn't matter.

But for someone that pays attention to what has happened to the
"exclusive, authorized dealer" setups over the last 30+ years, it
could be a sign of things to come.

I know a lot of folks are lusting after Festool now, (including myself
for the Domino) but I think soon they will be out of practical reach.
Personally, now that they are established in the minds of the
woodworker of America, I think they will follow the path of every
other major tool maker that takes that course and ramp up to get all
the money they can as fast as they can.

I hope not, but hey... it's the American way!

Robert

wrote:
On Mar 8, 11:18 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:

I'm starting to get the impression that nailshooter thinks that "no
direct sales by Festool" means "no online sales by anybody".

Noo....

Again, I was talking to the Easter Bunny, and he told me...

When Jet was resurrected from their great blue heap of crappy
products
by Woodcraft, they had an exclusive agreement with them. If you
wanted Jet after they switched to ivory colored tools to remake
themselves and made a run at a good quality tools, you had to go to
Woodcraft.

I was looking at a Jet mini at the time (1997? 1998?), and it was
Woodcraft or no one. We had a couple of decent tool sellers here
that
catered to industry, and they told me that there was some kind of
agreement with Woodcraft that kept the Jet machines out of their
hands.

When that agreement expired, everyone started to sell the products,
and in my opinion we all benefitted. About 6 years ago I helped a
friend outfit his shop, and he wanted all Jet tools. He loved them.
He bought a tablesaw, their big board planer, a monster drill press,
a
6" jointer, and dust collection system all in one shot. By buying
from Amazon (the doors to free distribution being open) he saved
oaverall about $2200 over buying the same exact tools from
Woodcraft,
and the tools were delivered to the door. Savings did not include
lack of delivery charges, local taxes, etc.

I still remember when you had to buy Porter Cable tools (when they
were black and highly polished aluminum) from an authorized dealer.
Only. The same with Milwaukee. The same with genuine Rockwell.

We had three or four dealers of Porter Cable and Rockwell here in
town
back in the early/mid seventies, but only one Milwaukee dealer.
Like
the Festool guys, I didn't get Milwaukee until I used them on the
job
for a year or so. They were worth every penny to me since as a
commercial carpenter, I used the drill and saw all day long.

I defected due to their ever increasing prices, and their ridiculous
pricing on parts. The vendors and distributors were protected, but
better values were to be found as their own protectionism was too
pricey. I abandoned them, as did so many of my compatriots.

BUT....

When the pressure became so great from competition, all three of my
favorite tools changed their business models to survive. Two made
it,
one didn't. They dropped the exclusive dealer arrangement, and
simply
made the dealers buy certain amounts of certain things.
Example: my nailgun repair/fastener vendor sold me 3 Rockwell 315s.
He told me he had to wait as he had to buy them 5 at a time, and
also
had a minimum $$ order.

Fair. Everyone has their pricing model. No one made me buy
Rockwell
tools.

I did the same dance with Duo Fast. In the 70s it was the king of
the
nailers. They got almost much more than I payed for my Spotnails
guns
(Spotnail framer - $399, Duofast framer - $599) and they had to be
serviced and repaired at a cost by a Duofast dealer/fanchisee only.
Even to change an "O" ring, which in those days didn't last more
than
30 days or so.

They made a lot of money for a while, but in the face of increasing
competition, they kept jacking their prices to make the exclusive
dealer/distributor network chain happy. They even went so far as to
buy all the old guns (or give credit towards new ones) to keep any
used or older guns off the market. They even had tiered pricing for
repairs based on how many guns you had!

Eventually, they priced themselves out of the market, and they went
away. They are now sold in the junk section of nailers in HD.

All that being said, let me try this again.

If you read this thread closely, you will see I don't care about the
tools (of which so many are defensive as if they were their own
children), it is the marketing decision. It is theirs as well, and
I
respect that. If the value of the tool is there at that price
level,
good for Festool, and good for the consumer. Obviously both sides
of
that fence are in a good place as their business model is working
well.

If Festool flourishes, good for them. If they go broke, good for
them. If they make everyone in the food chain happy with their new
business model, good for them. It simply doesn't matter.

But for someone that pays attention to what has happened to the
"exclusive, authorized dealer" setups over the last 30+ years, it
could be a sign of things to come.

I know a lot of folks are lusting after Festool now, (including
myself
for the Domino) but I think soon they will be out of practical
reach.
Personally, now that they are established in the minds of the
woodworker of America, I think they will follow the path of every
other major tool maker that takes that course and ramp up to get all
the money they can as fast as they can.

I hope not, but hey... it's the American way!

Once again, what does all this BULL**** have to do with the
announcement by Festool that they are not going to sell directly to
end users?

I don't really care if Festool has announced that Osama Bin Laden is
the only person in the entire universe authorized to sell their
products and that the price will increase by ten percent a week
henceforth and forevermore, but if they did that it was _not_ in the
announcement that you linked. If there is some other announcement
that you are on about then please share it with us. If there is not,
then what in the Hell has changed that has you posting these mountains
of horseapples?


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mar 8, 2:04 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

If there is not,
then what in the Hell has changed that has you posting these mountains
of horseapples?

Obviously you completely missed my point. That's fine. It was a commentary on the long term ramifications of the action, not the announcement itself. And at this point, who cares.

But truthfully, if you think it is all horse****, how silly are you to
keep reading literal "mountains" it? Taking it to an even higher
level of the same, why reply?

If you had a point germane to mine, I missed yours as well. But good
other valid points were made along the way from other different
posters. Obviously since this is a new announcement, and any
commentary on the long range effects of their action could be no more
than subjective.

So in other words, it is an opinion/discussion thread pretty much for
airing out of different viewpoints on the subject of the thread.
Regardless of the actual subject matter itself, if you don't like the
subject matter or its tone, why waster your time to participate at
all?

Robert

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 10:50:38 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Just picked this up:

http://tinyurl.com/34exgz

Anyone wanting to buy Festool, you should get it now. I know they
had a price increase recently that scared a lot of people, but they
are now closing ranks.

It's more a case of "as the US dollar goes down the pan, no one except
Bill Gates and Warren Buffett will be able to buy anything made by
Festool"

Meanwhile, closer to the Festool production location, the rocketing
cost of raw materials means that the locals won't be able to buy
anything made by Festool

So, the answer is to buy now and use it, because next month you might
not be able to afford it and even if you could all the lights will
have gone out and by all accounts a hand cranked Domino is useless.

Global Economic Meltdown, coming soon to a planet near you


--