I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use shellac
because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something on it?
Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize moisture
absorption through the seasons?

Thanks.

I wouldn't call shellac washable. You can use a waterbased acrylic and it
will not darken the wood much and will be washable. Water based acrylic is
also available in an exterior grade.

cm


"Buck Turgidson" wrote in message
...
I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use shellac
because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something on
it? Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize moisture
absorption through the seasons?

Thanks.

"Buck Turgidson" wrote:

I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use shellac
because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something on
it? Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize moisture
absorption through the seasons?


Shellac is used to seal wood; however, that being said, it's not as durable
as some other finishes, but you are dealing with vertical surfaces, not
flooring.

Wiping with a wet sponge should be NBD.

That said, it can easily be repaired, and probably the best reason for using
it is that you like it.

Start with 1/2 lb, dewaxed shellac and go from there.

Probably 3-4 coats before you are done.

Have fun.

Lew

When I was a kid, many years ago (1948 or so) the instructor at the
Boy's club where I learned some woodworking, had us finish every project
the same way, ie: 3 coats of shellac, sanded between with a coat of
varnish for protection. I haven't used shellac since. It isn't going
to help you to avoid yellowing or darkening IIRC.

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------------

Buck Turgidson wrote:

I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use shellac
because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something on it?
Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize moisture
absorption through the seasons?

Thanks.

"Buck Turgidson" wrote in message
...
I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use shellac
because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something on
it? Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize moisture
absorption through the seasons?


It's a great sealer. Better than anything else FWW tested at that job.
Blessing and curse, depending on how well moisture can get to the rear of
the wainscoting. Doing both sides two (1#) coats would be best.

Don't wash it with alkali or alcohol, as indicated. Renew as it gets chewed
and be glad you aren't feathering chips and flakes to try and get a new
surface, but re-blending the shellac. Vertical application should be good.

I have also used the water based finishes on Pine flooring, works great,
fairly hard finish, but it does still yellow a bit, I do not think you can
get away from some darkening of the wood.

Mike H


"George" wrote in message
. net...

"Buck Turgidson" wrote in message
...
I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use shellac
because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something on
it? Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize moisture
absorption through the seasons?


It's a great sealer. Better than anything else FWW tested at that job.
Blessing and curse, depending on how well moisture can get to the rear of
the wainscoting. Doing both sides two (1#) coats would be best.

Don't wash it with alkali or alcohol, as indicated. Renew as it gets
chewed and be glad you aren't feathering chips and flakes to try and get a
new surface, but re-blending the shellac. Vertical application should be
good.

I just used Hydrocote from Hood Finishing Products on some pine
shelving, and it was great--super clear, easy to apply, quick drying
and seemingly very tough (have to wait to see on that one, of course).

I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use
shellac because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would
p-urethane.

Actually, poly more turns amber than yellow; minor distinction to most I
suppose but ...
Water born poly is hard, dents without breaking, stuff like that, very
hard.
Shellac softer, easier to repair, easier to apply, more forgiving of
mistakes.


Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable,

With care and very, very mild detergents; better water only. If it
stays wet it'll mark.

if someone were to get something
on it?

Likely leave a black or dark discoloration. Doesn't like anything
strong on it.

Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize
moisture absorption through the seasons?

Yes.

I'd say it depends mostly on how the area will be treated. Constantly
bumped, scraped, rubbed, etc? Shellac makes it very easy to repair, no
sanding necessary, often unnoticeable repairs when done. Shellac will
"melt" into prevous coats.
Poly will need gloss removed, spot repairs are more visible, more prone
to scratch since it's a harder surface, but at same time harder to
scratch. Shellac scratches less noticeable.

Got some extra pieces? Poly one half and shellac the other. Put it
down on the floor and walk on it for a few days in the garage, driveway,
anywhere that'll mar it up. Then look it over, see what you think.
Maybe try a couple spot repairs. Make decision. It's a definite ymmv
situation.\

For me, I'd use the water born poly; hard, takes dents without breaking
the coat, looks good.
ALL finished are harder to apply to vertical surfaces. Use several thin
coats so they don't run.

Regards,

Twayne



Thanks.



--
Twayne

Tired of MS Office and their shananigans?
Try this free replacement:
http://www.openoffice.org

Buck Turgidson wrote:
But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something on it?
Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize moisture
absorption through the seasons?


I read some of the answers you got. There sure are a lot of different
opinions out there :-). I'll add mine. I teach finishing classes at
the local Woodcraft store, so supposedly I'm not a total novice at
finishing.

As to moisture resistance, shellac is the best at slowing moisture vapor
exchange, with the possible exception of epoxy. If you want to minimize
seasonal expansion/contraction shellac is the finish to use even if you
overcoat it with something else.

Shellac has a reputation of water spotting. It certainly will if the
shellac has wax in it. OTOH, I've tried to get water spotting with
dewaxed shellac and have never managed it. Use dewaxed shellac and
you'll be OK.

BTW, always use dewaxed shellac if you're going to use it
over/under/between other finishes. Many won't stick to the waxy
shellac. The only reason I know of to ever use waxy shellac would be to
repair/emulate an antique finish using a very dark shellac which isn't
available dewaxed.

The easiest to find dewaxed shellac is Zinssers SealCoat. Sold as a
sealer, it's actually, as the fine print discloses, a 2 pound cut of
dewaxed shellac. Just check the manufacturing date on the bottom of the
can as it does degrade in a couple of years. OTOH, you could always mix
your own from flakes - the flakes last forever.

Someone said shellac was hard to apply. It is, if you apply it with a
brush. Especially on vertical surfaces. I take 3 or 4 of my wife's
cosmetic pads, wrap them in a piece of old T-shirt, and wipe on very
thin coats. By the time you get from one end of the work to the other,
you can go back and start over, at leas for the first 3 or 4 coats.
After that you may have to wait a half-hour or so between coats. I
usually put on 8-10 thin coats which I can do in one day. Don't sand
between coats, it's a waste of time. After the final coat, wait at
least a week before any rubbing out is you fell that is necessary. Two
weeks would be better.

Shellac is also completely non-toxic once the alcohol has evaporated.
It's used on pills and foods. And if you need to repair it, just wipe
on another thin coat. Sometimes I can repair a scratch by just using
alcohol to melt and redistribute the existing finish.

It isn't the world's toughest finish, and it doesn't like extreme heat,
alcohol, or alkaline cleaners (including ammonia). But none of those
would appear to be a problem in your application. I say go for it.

On Jan 28, 12:40 pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:

Someone said shellac was hard to apply. It is, if you apply it with a
brush. Especially on vertical surfaces. I take 3 or 4 of my wife's
cosmetic pads, wrap them in a piece of old T-shirt, and wipe on very
thin coats. By the time you get from one end of the work to the other,
you can go back and start over, at leas for the first 3 or 4 coats.
After that you may have to wait a half-hour or so between coats. I
usually put on 8-10 thin coats which I can do in one day. Don't sand
between coats, it's a waste of time. After the final coat, wait at
least a week before any rubbing out is you fell that is necessary. Two
weeks would be better.

Was sorely tempted to French polish the last 600 sf oak floor
I shellacked. Would have looked cool, even if it took forever.
Used a 4" pighair brush and 2 lb cut orange. Goes on easy if
you load the brush heavy and work fast and forward. Let any
skips wait for the next coat, or you'll have ridges to scrape
back with a razor blade.

Shellac will yellow and darken over time. It has no uv inhibitors.
It is washable, just not with alcohol.

Yes if you do all sides, since you are only doing the side facing you, NO.

I use shellac primarily. A great finish, that has been too often
replaced with poly. Shellac makes the wood grain pop... It is one of the
easiest finishes to apply, and quick to dry.



Buck Turgidson wrote:
I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use shellac
because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something on it?
Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize moisture
absorption through the seasons?

Thanks.

Wow so much misinformation.

One of the easiest finishes to apply. I can't believe you think it is a
bear.

Windex contains ammonia, it doesn't degrade shellac. I use it quite often.

Shellac is the easiest to repair since it remelts the previous layer.

I pretty much use it exclusively, except where I need a more durable
finish, but I usually start with shellac.

Steve wrote:
"Buck Turgidson" wrote on 27 Jan 2008 in group
rec.woodworking:

I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use
shellac because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would
p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something
on it? Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize
moisture absorption through the seasons?

Shellac is a delicate finish, and it's a bear to apply. I just delivered
a table that I refinished with shellac.

Shellac comes in three main colors: amber, orange, and blonde. None of
them are colorless, and the actual color varies from by manufacturer and
from batch to batch. I used blonde shellac, the lightest color, and it
was significantly yellow in my mixing jar.

Shellac is easily damaged by alcohol. If you think someone will ever
spill a drink on your wainscoting, or clean it with Windex, or if it's
in a bathroom, then you won't be happy. The old shellac on the table I
refinished had deteriorated to the point that pieces were flaking off
where glasses had sat, and applying alcohol to the existing finish
caused it to turn white. (I won't be refinishing one of these again any
time soon.)

Go to a real paint store and ask for advice and samples. They'll have a
finish that will suit you.

Wow so much misinformation.

One of the easiest finishes to apply. I can't believe you think it is a
bear.


Shellac is the easiest to repair since it remelts the previous layer.

I pretty much use it exclusively, except where I need a more durable
finish, but I usually start with shellac.

You can dewax waxed shellac using a large syringe and removing the top
after the wax settles to the bottom.

Steve wrote:
"Buck Turgidson" wrote on 27 Jan 2008 in group
rec.woodworking:

I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use
shellac because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would
p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something
on it? Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize
moisture absorption through the seasons?

Shellac is a delicate finish, and it's a bear to apply. I just delivered
a table that I refinished with shellac.

Shellac comes in three main colors: amber, orange, and blonde. None of
them are colorless, and the actual color varies from by manufacturer and
from batch to batch. I used blonde shellac, the lightest color, and it
was significantly yellow in my mixing jar.

Shellac is easily damaged by alcohol. If you think someone will ever
spill a drink on your wainscoting, or clean it with Windex, or if it's
in a bathroom, then you won't be happy. The old shellac on the table I
refinished had deteriorated to the point that pieces were flaking off
where glasses had sat, and applying alcohol to the existing finish
caused it to turn white. (I won't be refinishing one of these again any
time soon.)

Go to a real paint store and ask for advice and samples. They'll have a
finish that will suit you.

tiredofspam wrote:
Wow so much misinformation.

Windex contains ammonia, it doesn't degrade shellac. I use it quite
often.


In the article listed below Jeff Jewitt states, "Household ammonia
cleans shellac brushes because the alkaline ammonia dissolves the acidic
shellac."

http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/shellac.htm

I prefer alcohol but I have used ammonia to clean my shellac brushes.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Nova wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Wow so much misinformation.

Windex contains ammonia, it doesn't degrade shellac. I use it quite
often.


In the article listed below Jeff Jewitt states, "Household ammonia
cleans shellac brushes because the alkaline ammonia dissolves the acidic
shellac."

http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/shellac.htm

I prefer alcohol but I have used ammonia to clean my shellac brushes.


Yeah, I caught that one too. Maybe he just wanted to add his own bit of
misinformation :-).

Believe us folks, ammonia and shellac are not compatible!

Nova wrote:
tiredofspam wrote:
Wow so much misinformation.

Windex contains ammonia, it doesn't degrade shellac. I use it
quite often.


In the article listed below Jeff Jewitt states, "Household ammonia
cleans shellac brushes because the alkaline ammonia dissolves the
acidic shellac."

http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/shellac.htm

I prefer alcohol but I have used ammonia to clean my shellac brushes.


Yeah, I caught that one too. Maybe he just wanted to add his own bit
of misinformation :-).

Believe us folks, ammonia and shellac are not compatible!

I think the problem arises because some products have such low
concentrations of ammonia etc., that the first few times you don't
notice a problem unless you're looking closely. Develops sort of a
false sense of security. Personally, I always take the advice of the
manufacturers; who better to know, right? When they tell me a hot
coffee cup is likely to leave a ring, I tend to believe them, etc., g.
Although I have been known to repeat their tests, just to "see" what it
looks like.

--
Twayne

Tired of MS Office and their shananigans?
Try this free replacement:
http://www.openoffice.org

Wow so much misinformation.

One of the easiest finishes to apply. I can't believe you think it is
a bear.


Shellac is the easiest to repair since it remelts the previous layer.

I pretty much use it exclusively, except where I need a more durable
finish, but I usually start with shellac.

You can dewax waxed shellac using a large syringe and removing the top
after the wax settles to the bottom.

Sounds like some bad experiences, probably from not reading up on the
cuts, waxed/dewaxed, age, etc. etc.. Once you get used to the ins and
outs of shellac, it's a great product for many applications. I just
wish it would keep longer; I'm always buying too much 'cause I don't use
it often enough to keep a stock rotated. IFF I even remember to rotate
itg!
I've recently been experimenting with some water-borne urethanes too
and they're impressing me. But that's OT; I'll leave it for another
threadg.

Twayne



Steve wrote:
"Buck Turgidson" wrote on 27 Jan 2008 in group
rec.woodworking:

I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. I would like to use
shellac because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would
p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something
on it? Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize
moisture absorption through the seasons?

Shellac is a delicate finish, and it's a bear to apply. I just
delivered a table that I refinished with shellac.

Shellac comes in three main colors: amber, orange, and blonde. None
of them are colorless, and the actual color varies from by
manufacturer and from batch to batch. I used blonde shellac, the
lightest color, and it was significantly yellow in my mixing jar.

Shellac is easily damaged by alcohol. If you think someone will ever
spill a drink on your wainscoting, or clean it with Windex, or if
it's in a bathroom, then you won't be happy. The old shellac on the
table I refinished had deteriorated to the point that pieces were
flaking off where glasses had sat, and applying alcohol to the
existing finish caused it to turn white. (I won't be refinishing one
of these again any time soon.)

Go to a real paint store and ask for advice and samples. They'll
have a finish that will suit you.



--
Twayne

Tired of MS Office and their shananigans?
Try this free replacement:
http://www.openoffice.org

It isn't the world's toughest finish, and it doesn't like extreme heat,
alcohol, or alkaline cleaners (including ammonia). But none of those
would appear to be a problem in your application. I say go for it.


I used "Seal Coat" and love the look on the wainscoting. Sounds like a good
compromise is to go over it with some water poly rather than a waxed
shellac.

That way I'd have the best of both worlds - a nice color with depth, but a
non-yellowing finish.

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:43:57 -0500, "Buck Turgidson"
wrote:


It isn't the world's toughest finish, and it doesn't like extreme heat,
alcohol, or alkaline cleaners (including ammonia). But none of those
would appear to be a problem in your application. I say go for it.


I used "Seal Coat" and love the look on the wainscoting. Sounds like a good
compromise is to go over it with some water poly rather than a waxed
shellac.

Not really... Seal Coat doesn't impart much color, and you'd destroy
the reparability.

You'd need to go with BLO, "Robert's Sealer" (My choice), or a
"natural" stain, _then_ Seal Coat, then the poly, to get any real
color with the WB poly.


I'd stay with the straight shellac, knowing repair is but a "wipe"
away. G

Let's back up - pine, wainscoting - already up, rec-room.

Some questions need answers before the initial question
can be answered with any specifics.

Since wainscoting is on the wall, not the floor, what is
the concern about durability? Walls don't get a lot of
contact in use. And, unless someone sprays drinks,
say soft drink or booze, not much is going to get on
the wainscotting other than what's in the air over
extended periods of time (smoke - from cigarettes,
cigars, fireplace, candles, ...).

Is the rec-room in a basement, partially or totally below ground
level - or - above ground with no exterior walls?

Was the wainscoting applied over sheet rock/dry wall?

If a wall is an exterior wall, is there a vapor barrier and
insulation behind the wall?

Will there be furniture up against the wainscotting and
if so, upholstered or wood making possible contact with
the wainscoting?

Will there be kids leaning against the wall with their foot/
shoe on it? Will little kids be crashing toys into the
wainscoting?

Is the wainscoting going to get a lot of direct exposure
to sunlight?

Now to some general issues/points about shellac.

1. The solvent is alcohol - which ain't good to breathe
- and is flammable. Is there plenty of ventillation
for the rec-room? Is there any source of open flame,
or anything that might spark in that space? Durability
stops once a fire starts - and an explosion makes it
a mute point as well. Hot or BOOM is more of a concern
if you intend to spray on the finish.

2. Most of the "problems" with shellac are with the wax
that's in "normal" shellac, not the shellac itself. So
de-waxed shellac is far less prone to White Rings or
Blushing (white hazy areas in the finish).

3. Shellac, dewaxed or not, is a Hot Finish - each new
application "melts" the top of the previous application,
forming a continuous film - unlike a Cold Finish which
relies on a mechanical bond between LAYERS (with
Cold Finishes you must sand or steel wool between
coats to get the LAYERS to adhere to each other).

With Cold Finishes repairs require "feathering" to
disquise "witness rings" (think "grain pattern" when
sanding through growth rings on a board). So to
disguise a repair to a 6" long scratch in the finish,
you may have to "feather" sand 3 or four inches
all the way around the scratch. With shellac you
may not have to sand at all - wipe on more shellac
and be done with the repair.

4. Shellac, once cured, doesn't outgas. Most Cold
Finishes do.

5. Shellac dries FAST - especially when "padded" on in
thin coats. How much dust is in the air in the rec
room? Dust nibs will show - a little or a lot depending.
The slower the finish is to dry the more dust nibs
to deal with.

6. There is a dewaxed shellac usually called Platina that's
almost "white" - very little yellow at all. Expensive
but if you want as little color change as possible, it
has all of the pluses of shellac.

charlie b

Let's back up - pine, wainscoting - already up, rec-room.

Some questions need answers before the initial question
can be answered with any specifics.

Since wainscoting is on the wall, not the floor, what is
the concern about durability? Walls don't get a lot of
contact in use. And, unless someone sprays drinks,
say soft drink or booze, not much is going to get on
the wainscotting other than what's in the air over
extended periods of time (smoke - from cigarettes,
cigars, fireplace, candles, ...).

Is the rec-room in a basement, partially or totally below ground
level - or - above ground with no exterior walls?

Was the wainscoting applied over sheet rock/dry wall?

If a wall is an exterior wall, is there a vapor barrier and
insulation behind the wall?

Will there be furniture up against the wainscotting and
if so, upholstered or wood making possible contact with
the wainscoting?

Will there be kids leaning against the wall with their foot/
shoe on it? Will little kids be crashing toys into the
wainscoting?

Is the wainscoting going to get a lot of direct exposure
to sunlight?

Now to some general issues/points about shellac.

1. The solvent is alcohol - which ain't good to breathe
- and is flammable. Is there plenty of ventillation
for the rec-room? Is there any source of open flame,
or anything that might spark in that space? Durability
stops once a fire starts - and an explosion makes it
a mute point as well. Hot or BOOM is more of a concern
if you intend to spray on the finish.

2. Most of the "problems" with shellac are with the wax
that's in "normal" shellac, not the shellac itself. So
de-waxed shellac is far less prone to White Rings or
Blushing (white hazy areas in the finish).

3. Shellac, dewaxed or not, is a Hot Finish - each new
application "melts" the top of the previous application,
forming a continuous film - unlike a Cold Finish which
relies on a mechanical bond between LAYERS (with
Cold Finishes you must sand or steel wool between
coats to get the LAYERS to adhere to each other).

With Cold Finishes repairs require "feathering" to
disquise "witness rings" (think "grain pattern" when
sanding through growth rings on a board). So to
disguise a repair to a 6" long scratch in the finish,
you may have to "feather" sand 3 or four inches
all the way around the scratch. With shellac you
may not have to sand at all - wipe on more shellac
and be done with the repair.

4. Shellac, once cured, doesn't outgas. Most Cold
Finishes do.

5. Shellac dries FAST - especially when "padded" on in
thin coats. How much dust is in the air in the rec
room? Dust nibs will show - a little or a lot depending.
The slower the finish is to dry the more dust nibs
to deal with.

6. There is a dewaxed shellac usually called Platina that's
almost "white" - very little yellow at all. Expensive
but if you want as little color change as possible, it
has all of the pluses of shellac.

charlie b

That's a great response; I'd just like to add, if I may:
If there are flames/sparks around as there almost certainly will be
(pilot lights, furnace, light switches, etc), and for personal comfort
besides safety, insure good ventilation during use. Open windows and
fans are the usual answer; keep plenty of air exchange going on.
--

Regards,

Twayne

OO0 is a GREAT MS Office replacement
www.openoffice.org

Please respond to the newsgroup, not to
my e-mail, so that all may benefit. I do not
always respond to newsgroup e-mails.

Another idea...

As many have pointed out, pine darkens severly.

When my uncle built a new house he had pine deck on the ceiling, and
he stained it natural pine color. Not sure, but I think he used a
light wash of thinned paint. The Idea was that when the pine
darkened, the stain would retain the original light color. Seemed to
work.

I tried it on some shelves, mixed white paint with shellac (my chosen
finish) until I got the shade I wanted, then stained the whole thing.
Works a treat.

BUT--be really careful to cover all surfaces. I missed a few places,
and I now have piebald, dark wood adjacent to light wood, showing
EXCTLY where i missed!

This would work for any finish you choose. Make lots of test panels.

Old Guy



On Jan 27, 7:18*pm, "Buck Turgidson" wrote:
I put up some pine wainscoting in a rec-room. *I would like to use shellac
because I don't want it to darken and yellow as would p-urethane.

Plus, I like the look of it.

But is shellac reasonably washable, if someone were to get something on it?
Also, does shellac provide any moisture sealing to minimize moisture
absorption through the seasons?

Thanks.

On Jan 28, 2:02 pm, tiredofspam nospam.nospam.com wrote:
Shellac will yellow and darken over time. It has no uv inhibitors.
It is washable, just not with alcohol.

Yes if you do all sides, since you are only doing the side facing you, NO.

I use shellac primarily. A great finish, that has been too often
replaced with poly. Shellac makes the wood grain pop... It is one of the
easiest finishes to apply, and quick to dry.

It is versatile. I've used it as a sizing for oil painting. It
dries
fast, it doesn't shrink the paper, and the orange tint makes it
easy to start with light colors.