I was cross-cutting about an inch or so from the end of several pieces
of oak for my current project. After about four cut-offs were laying
on the waste side of the blade I decided to carefully remove them with
a push stick.

I wasn't quite careful enough because the first one touched the blade
and I have a rectangular welt on my stomach. I'm sure it will be
black and blue tomorrow.

That sure happened quick! Be careful while you're making sawdust.

G.S.

On Nov 3, 3:38 pm, Gordon Shumway wrote:
I was cross-cutting about an inch or so from the end of several pieces
of oak for my current project. After about four cut-offs were laying
on the waste side of the blade I decided to carefully remove them with
a push stick.

I wasn't quite careful enough because the first one touched the blade
and I have a rectangular welt on my stomach. I'm sure it will be
black and blue tomorrow.

That sure happened quick! Be careful while you're making sawdust.

G.S.

2 summers ago, I caught a 3"x2"x2/3" piece of oak in the stomach.
Thank god it hit with the 3/4 x 3 flt side. It didn't break skin, but
left a bloody outline... it took about a month to heal

Built a crosscut sled right afterwards
lets be careful !

good luck
shelly

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
...
I was cross-cutting about an inch or so from the end of several pieces
of oak for my current project. After about four cut-offs were laying
on the waste side of the blade I decided to carefully remove them with
a push stick.

I wasn't quite careful enough because the first one touched the blade
and I have a rectangular welt on my stomach. I'm sure it will be
black and blue tomorrow.

That sure happened quick! Be careful while you're making sawdust.


Maybe you should borrow some lessons from history on this task. Make
yourself a shield and lance for this. You probably won't need the horse
though.

Rectangular welt, eh? That must look bizzare. Remember, that spinning
blade must be respected. Be very observant and reverant around spinning
blades. Keep flesh away from spinning blades. Learn from this. And most
importantly, NEVER DO THIS AGAIN!!

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 13:38:19 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

I was cross-cutting about an inch or so from the end of several pieces
of oak for my current project. After about four cut-offs were laying
on the waste side of the blade I decided to carefully remove them with
a push stick.

I wasn't quite careful enough because the first one touched the blade
and I have a rectangular welt on my stomach. I'm sure it will be
black and blue tomorrow.

That sure happened quick! Be careful while you're making sawdust.

G.S.

Glad to hear you made it through. Please work safely.

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 13:38:19 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

I was cross-cutting about an inch or so from the end of several pieces
of oak for my current project. After about four cut-offs were laying
on the waste side of the blade I decided to carefully remove them with
a push stick.

I wasn't quite careful enough because the first one touched the blade
and I have a rectangular welt on my stomach. I'm sure it will be
black and blue tomorrow.

That sure happened quick! Be careful while you're making sawdust.

Never get close to the blade when it's running, it can throw things at
you with little or no notice, as you found out. Next time, turn the
saw off first!

Sat, Nov 3, 2007, 1:38pm (EDT-2) ac (Gordon*Shumway)
doth sayeth:
snip I wasn't quite careful enough snip

I always stay out of line with the blade. I also tend to shut the
saw off when doing things like that.



JOAT
Viet Nam. Divorce. Cancer. Been there, done that, got over it. Now
where the Hell are my T-shirts?
- JOAT

Gordon Shumway wrote:
I was cross-cutting about an inch or so from the end of several pieces
of oak for my current project. After about four cut-offs were laying
on the waste side of the blade I decided to carefully remove them with
a push stick.

I wasn't quite careful enough because the first one touched the blade
and I have a rectangular welt on my stomach. I'm sure it will be
black and blue tomorrow.

That sure happened quick! Be careful while you're making sawdust.

G.S.

Look at the bright side. You don't have a finger shaped welt on
your belly.

LdB

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
...
I was cross-cutting about an inch or so from the end of several pieces
of oak for my current project. After about four cut-offs were laying
on the waste side of the blade I decided to carefully remove them with
a push stick.

I wasn't quite careful enough because the first one touched the blade
and I have a rectangular welt on my stomach.

Did Gordon have a splitter in place? Though they offer no absolute guarantee
in this situation, they can help to prevent offcuts like these from catching
the up-running teeth.

There's some stuff about circular sawbench safety on my web site, by the
way.

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
...
I was cross-cutting about an inch or so from the end of several pieces
of oak for my current project. After about four cut-offs were laying
on the waste side of the blade I decided to carefully remove them with
a push stick.

I wasn't quite careful enough because the first one touched the blade
and I have a rectangular welt on my stomach. I'm sure it will be
black and blue tomorrow.

That sure happened quick! Be careful while you're making sawdust.

G.S.

Lesson learned huh Gordon? ;~) Apparently you trapped the scrap between
the blade and the push stick. Better to leave the scraps and let the next
scrap push through the pile or turn the saw off. "Unless trapped" between a
fixed object, push stick, fence, jig, and the blade, the scraps will simply
push away from the blade.

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 08:51:58 -0000, "Jeff Gorman"
wrote:

Did Gordon have a splitter in place? Though they offer no absolute guarantee
in this situation, they can help to prevent offcuts like these from catching
the up-running teeth.

It sounded to me like he knocked the offcuts back into the blade when
he was trying to move them.

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 08:51:58 -0000, "Jeff Gorman"
wrote:

Did Gordon have a splitter in place? Though they offer no absolute
guarantee
in this situation, they can help to prevent offcuts like these from
catching
the up-running teeth.

It sounded to me like he knocked the offcuts back into the blade when
he was trying to move them.

Waste pieces simply knocked back against the blade typically will only be
knocked back away from the blade a few inches again. You just about have to
push and hold the waste with a push stick or stationary object before the
waste will lift off and fly back at you. I'd say he pushed and momentarily
held the waste against the blade.

Leon wrote:
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 08:51:58 -0000, "Jeff Gorman"
wrote:

Did Gordon have a splitter in place? Though they offer no absolute
guarantee
in this situation, they can help to prevent offcuts like these from
catching
the up-running teeth.
It sounded to me like he knocked the offcuts back into the blade when
he was trying to move them.

Waste pieces simply knocked back against the blade typically will only be
knocked back away from the blade a few inches again. You just about have to
push and hold the waste with a push stick or stationary object before the
waste will lift off and fly back at you. I'd say he pushed and momentarily
held the waste against the blade.

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of the
blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

--

Absolutely correct. If the piece is pushed it can be propelled in any
direction. If "knocked" and not held in place very unlikely.

Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of the
blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

--

Absolutely correct. If the piece is pushed it can be propelled in any
direction. If "knocked" and not held in place very unlikely.

"Knock", "Push", phsssh...

Propel a cutoff into the rear of the blade however, and it flies...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

--

Absolutely correct. If the piece is pushed it can be propelled in any
direction. If "knocked" and not held in place very unlikely.

"Knock", "Push", phsssh...

Propel a cutoff into the rear of the blade however, and it flies...

--

Well If you are throwing a fast ball into the blade, yeah you will get a
kick back, the faster you propel the scrap the more opposing force the piece
has against the blade and therefore increasing the chance of it deflecting
with more force. If simply bumping a scrap piece so that it freely slides
in to the blade with no additional force to hold it against the blade the
piece will maybe bounce a couple of inches away. There is no resistance,
the scrap will simply be pushed a couple of inches away.
If this was not true, most wood workers would receive injuries with each
cut. Whether there is a pile of scraps or a single scrap, the cut off piece
is always in contact with the blade through out the cut. The moment just
before the scrap is cut free of the keeper side of the board it is held by a
piece of wood that in only thousandths of an inch thick. When the cut is
completed that sliver of wood disappears and the blade pushes the waste
piece/scrap away.
Only when the travel of that piece of waste/scrap is limited, by a
stationary fence or a push stick, will there be a serious kick back. With
no opposing force against the blade, the scrap simply gets pushed away from
the blade.

That said, take all precautions necessary to protect yourself. Knowing how
and why kick back happens is part of knowing how to protect yourself.

On 4 Nov, 17:35, "Leon" wrote:
Waste pieces simply knocked back against the blade typically will only be
knocked back away from the blade a few inches again.

Depends on the blade height. I always work (for through cuts) with my
blade as high as possible. If an offcut hits it, it lifts a little
but doesn't fly forwards. Working with the blade lowered "for safety"
will put offcuts in contact with a portion of blade that's travelling
forwards instead, thus throwing them at you.

Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

--
Absolutely correct. If the piece is pushed it can be propelled in any
direction. If "knocked" and not held in place very unlikely.
"Knock", "Push", phsssh...

Propel a cutoff into the rear of the blade however, and it flies...

--

Well If you are throwing a fast ball into the blade, yeah you will get a
kick back, the faster you propel the scrap the more opposing force the piece
has against the blade and therefore increasing the chance of it deflecting
with more force. If simply bumping a scrap piece so that it freely slides
in to the blade with no additional force to hold it against the blade the
piece will maybe bounce a couple of inches away. There is no resistance,
the scrap will simply be pushed a couple of inches away.
If this was not true, most wood workers would receive injuries with each
cut. Whether there is a pile of scraps or a single scrap, the cut off piece
is always in contact with the blade through out the cut. The moment just
before the scrap is cut free of the keeper side of the board it is held by a
piece of wood that in only thousandths of an inch thick. When the cut is
completed that sliver of wood disappears and the blade pushes the waste
piece/scrap away.
Only when the travel of that piece of waste/scrap is limited, by a
stationary fence or a push stick, will there be a serious kick back. With
no opposing force against the blade, the scrap simply gets pushed away from
the blade.

That's a nice fairy tale, but sorry description of what happened w/ what
started this thread...

That said, take all precautions necessary to protect yourself. ...

W/ that I can agree...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...

That's a nice fairy tale, but sorry description of what happened w/ what
started this thread...


Sorry, did I miss the OP follow up post where he mentioned more details on
how this accident happened? You know the accident only happened after the
OP caused the scrap to recontact the blade using his push stick. Until
there was an opposing force provided by the push stick did the accident
happen.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
ups.com...
On 4 Nov, 17:35, "Leon" wrote:
Waste pieces simply knocked back against the blade typically will only be
knocked back away from the blade a few inches again.

Depends on the blade height. I always work (for through cuts) with my
blade as high as possible. If an offcut hits it, it lifts a little
but doesn't fly forwards. Working with the blade lowered "for safety"
will put offcuts in contact with a portion of blade that's travelling
forwards instead, thus throwing them at you.


I have never witnessed any pieces being thrown anywhere unless it was
trapped, in many years of wood working.

Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
That's a nice fairy tale, but sorry description of what happened w/ what
started this thread...


Sorry, did I miss the OP follow up post where he mentioned more details on
how this accident happened? You know the accident only happened after the
OP caused the scrap to recontact the blade using his push stick. Until
there was an opposing force provided by the push stick did the accident
happen.

I've had it happen when simply leaving the saw on and the offcut
wandered over into contact on its own -- which is all I was driving at
-- it doesn't take much for a rising tooth to catch a corner of a piece
and hurl...certainly it doesn't take throwing it or pushing it hard and
holding it...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:


I've had it happen when simply leaving the saw on and the offcut wandered
over into contact on its own -- which is all I was driving at -- it
doesn't take much for a rising tooth to catch a corner of a piece and
hurl...certainly it doesn't take throwing it or pushing it hard and
holding it...

OK, I see this happen on occasion but fortunately the piece only gets
kicked back a couple of inches at most.

Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:

I've had it happen when simply leaving the saw on and the offcut wandered
over into contact on its own -- which is all I was driving at -- it
doesn't take much for a rising tooth to catch a corner of a piece and
hurl...certainly it doesn't take throwing it or pushing it hard and
holding it...

OK, I see this happen on occasion but fortunately the piece only gets
kicked back a couple of inches at most.

Well, you have seen one possibility, but there are others. Small pieces
can be thrown quite effectively (I know, I had a nice dent in my
forehead for a while... ).

--

dpb wrote:
Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:

I've had it happen when simply leaving the saw on and the offcut
wandered over into contact on its own -- which is all I was driving
at -- it doesn't take much for a rising tooth to catch a corner of a
piece and hurl...certainly it doesn't take throwing it or pushing it
hard and holding it...

OK, I see this happen on occasion but fortunately the piece only gets
kicked back a couple of inches at most.

Well, you have seen one possibility, but there are others. Small pieces
can be thrown quite effectively (I know, I had a nice dent in my
forehead for a while... ).

I intended to add -- I don't do that any more (leave the saw on w/
offcuts laying there, that is...)

--

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:47 -0600, dpb wrote:

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

True, but that would tend to be thrown up face-ward, not horizontally
belly-ward, wouldn't it?

Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:47 -0600, dpb wrote:

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

True, but that would tend to be thrown up face-ward, not horizontally
belly-ward, wouldn't it?

Right about mid-forehead in my case...

--

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:49:10 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:


I've had it happen when simply leaving the saw on and the offcut wandered
over into contact on its own -- which is all I was driving at -- it
doesn't take much for a rising tooth to catch a corner of a piece and
hurl...certainly it doesn't take throwing it or pushing it hard and
holding it...

OK, I see this happen on occasion but fortunately the piece only gets
kicked back a couple of inches at most.

If by "a couple of inches" you mean "five or six feet" I'll go with
that. I've had small pieces similar to what the OP described vibrate
into the back of the blade and cross the shop. Type of blade, type of
wood, blade height, phase of the moon -- there are a lot of factors
that can allow it to happen. *Normally* you only get a couple inches.
*Occasionally* something a lot more exciting happens. That is why it
is a good idea to keep out of the line of fire.

You are describing your experiences, Leon, which are a valid data
point, but they do not define what is possible, only what *you* have
observed.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Definition of a teenager: God's punishment for enjoying sex.

Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:47 -0600, dpb wrote:

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

True, but that would tend to be thrown up face-ward, not horizontally
belly-ward, wouldn't it?

Oh...or is _that_ what Leon was going on so about--that it isn't
necessarily gutting time? I had no thought whatsoever about anything
other than it's possible for an offcut to get hurled--I figured "how
high" was sorta' immaterial if it's heading your direction and you're a
fair target.

Anyways, as noted earlier, my lesson was taught in mid-forehead--unlike
my grandfather who had a faint outline of a hoofprint from a mule that
clocked him when he was a teenager to the day he passed, I can't see a
mark any more but I can still feel the place it struck if I need a
"don't do that" reminder.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:47 -0600, dpb wrote:

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

True, but that would tend to be thrown up face-ward, not horizontally
belly-ward, wouldn't it?

Oh...or is _that_ what Leon was going on so about--that it isn't
necessarily gutting time? I had no thought whatsoever about anything
other than it's possible for an offcut to get hurled--I figured "how high"
was sorta' immaterial if it's heading your direction and you're a fair
target.


LOL, no, I still stand behind the fact that circumstances have to be just
right for a loose piece of scrap to be thrown with any force regardless of
blade positioning. That all goes out the window if there is something
providing resistance when the scrap hits the blade.
Several years ago there was the talk about wearing a glove when using a TS.
The fear was that the blade would catch the glove and pull your hand in. I
conducted an experiment and pushed a canvas/leather glove in to the spinning
blade, the clove cut just like wood, no shredding and no pulling into the
blade, just a slot/kerf spot was the result. I don't think gloves should be
used, if your glove hits the blade you may be startled and actually push
you hand into the blade as a reflex. And yes I have flipped small pieces of
scrap in to the back of the blade and back tooth area with no constant
resistance. The pieces simply flipped back out most often still landing on
the TS table top. Typically the scrap is going to go right back in the
direction it came from.

Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:47 -0600, dpb wrote:

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...
True, but that would tend to be thrown up face-ward, not horizontally
belly-ward, wouldn't it?
Oh...or is _that_ what Leon was going on so about--that it isn't
necessarily gutting time? I had no thought whatsoever about anything
other than it's possible for an offcut to get hurled--I figured "how high"
was sorta' immaterial if it's heading your direction and you're a fair
target.


LOL, no, I still stand behind the fact that circumstances have to be just
right for a loose piece of scrap to be thrown with any force regardless of
blade positioning. ...

All it takes is once -- and I can attest that it can...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:


All it takes is once -- and I can attest that it can...

--

I guess this kinda got off track as the OP had no problems until he caused
the problem. ;~)

Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:

I've had it happen when simply leaving the saw on and the offcut wandered
over into contact on its own -- which is all I was driving at -- it
doesn't take much for a rising tooth to catch a corner of a piece and
hurl...certainly it doesn't take throwing it or pushing it hard and
holding it...

OK, I see this happen on occasion but fortunately the piece only gets
kicked back a couple of inches at most.


Me and an ER visit say otherwise.

Harvey

dpb wrote:
Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:47 -0600, dpb wrote:

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...

True, but that would tend to be thrown up face-ward, not horizontally
belly-ward, wouldn't it?

Right about mid-forehead in my case...

--
Belly for me, upper belly, but belly.

Harvey

Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:47 -0600, dpb wrote:

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear of
the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite nicely...
True, but that would tend to be thrown up face-ward, not horizontally
belly-ward, wouldn't it?
Oh...or is _that_ what Leon was going on so about--that it isn't
necessarily gutting time? I had no thought whatsoever about anything
other than it's possible for an offcut to get hurled--I figured "how high"
was sorta' immaterial if it's heading your direction and you're a fair
target.


LOL, no, I still stand behind the fact that circumstances have to be just
right for a loose piece of scrap to be thrown with any force regardless of
blade positioning. That all goes out the window if there is something
providing resistance when the scrap hits the blade.
Several years ago there was the talk about wearing a glove when using a TS.
The fear was that the blade would catch the glove and pull your hand in. I
conducted an experiment and pushed a canvas/leather glove in to the spinning
blade, the clove cut just like wood, no shredding and no pulling into the
blade, just a slot/kerf spot was the result. I don't think gloves should be
used, if your glove hits the blade you may be startled and actually push
you hand into the blade as a reflex. And yes I have flipped small pieces of
scrap in to the back of the blade and back tooth area with no constant
resistance. The pieces simply flipped back out most often still landing on
the TS table top. Typically the scrap is going to go right back in the
direction it came from.


And typically a cut started will be successfully completed. Otherwise, I
don't think I would bother.

Harvey

dpb wrote:
Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:52:47 -0600, dpb wrote:

'Pends on where it hit/caught -- push a small offcut into the rear
of the blade w/ rising teeth and it can easily be thrown quite
nicely...
True, but that would tend to be thrown up face-ward, not horizontally
belly-ward, wouldn't it?
Oh...or is _that_ what Leon was going on so about--that it isn't
necessarily gutting time? I had no thought whatsoever about anything
other than it's possible for an offcut to get hurled--I figured "how
high" was sorta' immaterial if it's heading your direction and you're
a fair target.


LOL, no, I still stand behind the fact that circumstances have to be
just right for a loose piece of scrap to be thrown with any force
regardless of blade positioning. ...

All it takes is once -- and I can attest that it can...

--
yes.

Harvey

Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:

All it takes is once -- and I can attest that it can...

--

I guess this kinda got off track as the OP had no problems until he caused
the problem. ;~)


Sure. And I wouldn't have had a problem if I had not been cutting wood.
Caused my own problem, too. Really Leon, I think you are missing this one.

Harvey

"eclipsme" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:

All it takes is once -- and I can attest that it can...

--

I guess this kinda got off track as the OP had no problems until he
caused the problem. ;~)
Sure. And I wouldn't have had a problem if I had not been cutting wood.
Caused my own problem, too. Really Leon, I think you are missing this one.


What I am saying is that you should let scraps lay, don't move them while
the blade is spinning. The scraps are 99.9% more likely to simply push off
of the blade and go no where so to speak unless you physically push them
into the blade with resistance using something like a push stick.

Leon wrote:
"eclipsme" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Leon wrote:
All it takes is once -- and I can attest that it can...

--
I guess this kinda got off track as the OP had no problems until he
caused the problem. ;~)
Sure. And I wouldn't have had a problem if I had not been cutting wood.
Caused my own problem, too. Really Leon, I think you are missing this one.


What I am saying is that you should let scraps lay, don't move them while
the blade is spinning. The scraps are 99.9% more likely to simply push off
of the blade and go no where so to speak unless you physically push them
into the blade with resistance using something like a push stick.


Oh... I understand now. Yeah, it depends. If I can clearly get the piece
safely, and there is some danger of it getting caught, I will get it. If
I can not clearly get it safely, and there is some danger of it getting
caught I tighten my sphincter while I reach for the off switch.

You are right. I certainly don't want to push it into the blade!

Harvey