If my questions have already been answered elsewhere please forgive me
though I did search.

I have finished assembly/glue up of a small pine cabinet. I sanded the
surface working from 80 to 800 grit paper. I'd hoped to build a dark
stain. I know pine can be blotchy and figured I'd try to condition it
before staining. I'd tried miniwax pre-stain conditioner with success
on another project but this time I wanted to try something new. I
shellac'ed, using Zinnser Amber. Since this was my first time using
shellac I thought I'd do my best to screw it up unintentionally to
turn more hair gray. I read an article which recommended putting on
two coats. I can't say how many I put on because the first application
kept running and I kept going over the runs with my brush. I tried to
even what I had on out with a rag dipped in denatured alchohol, which
helped some but left me wondering if I had areas which were entirely
uncovered. I brushed more shellac on because I was feeling crazy. It
all dried and didn't look half bad but my guess is any uneveness will
show up in the final finish. That's question number one:

1. Will any uneven layers of a shellac topcoat produce an uneven
looking stain/finish?

My fear is that no matter how hard I try I will produce an uneven coat
of shellac though recent reading leads me to believe if I cut it next
to nothing with alchohol and build several ultra thin layers I might
have more luck.

Next, The cabinet is now what zinnser calls 'amber' and what I call
'orange'.

2. Have I used too much shellac? Should I use clear instead?

Next, the stain. I'm using Olympic stain out of the can. I put on one
coat, let it sit five to ten minutes and wiped it off. When I wiped it
off it looked as though I didn't do anything at all.

3. Does this stuff get darker or is this a joke perpetrated on my be
Olympic where I spend my life savings and life buying and pretending
to stain wood? There are some spots that will be hidden on the project
and are not covered by shellac which took the stain like I would
imagine stain should take. Have I blocked the stain from penetrating
the wood with the amount of shellac I applied?

4. I work in a dusty environment and accept this as a fact of my life.
If I were a multi-billionaire I'd contract NASA to build and orbit a
space station which had the best dust control imaginable but I'm a guy
on a budget working in his garage that also happens to be used for all
wood working, car parking, leaf parties, bug parties, etc. Am I asking
for too much to get my wood darkened and not blotchy? Is there any way
to speed up the staining process (thinning stain using mineral
spirits, etc.) or have more control over it? Am I doomed to guys
telling me I should just slather the piece in boiled linseed, teak or
some other oil and living with it?

Oh yeah, and I'm sure some one will tell me to run out and buy Bob
Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing" book so I'll stop you there.
Read it cover to cover and I still (obviously) don't understand, so
please don't use big words and do talk slowly so that maybe I'll get
it this time.

My temptation is to take off everything on the piece with thinner
(stain, if it's actually on) and alchohol for the shellac, thin the
shellac, apply two or more very thin coats, then retry the stain. I
have a feeling this might work or could get me back right where I am
now. Any thoughts?

Chris,
The 'usual' application of shellac - for this purpose - is a 'Spit Coat'.
That is to 'dilute' the some of the stuff with about 3 or 4 times the volume
of DENATURED alcohol. I would take a further step and use a NON-WAX shellac
.. . . Bullseye 'Seal Coat'.

Also . . . sanding TOO FINE actually makes the surface LESS penetrable for
the stain. 120 grit is probably fine enough for Pine . . . which is a SOFT
wood.

Additionally, I'd go with an Aniline DYE . . . water based. You'll get
deeper penetration and less 'blotch'. DO EXPERIMENT !!! And KEEP NOTES !!!

I just did a shelf to match other Maple pieces I'd made for my wife. Even
with 6 applications of 'stain' . . it wasn't dark enough for her eye. I took
it back to bare wood, and this time I STARTED with 'Bombay Mahogany' stain.
After that, it only took 2 coats of 'Antique Maple' to add the tonal
highlights. 3 coats of Water-based Poly sealed everything - leaving a HARD
surface.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Chrisgiraffe" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have finished assembly/glue up of a small pine cabinet. I sanded the
surface working from 80 to 800 grit paper. I'd hoped to build a dark
stain. I know pine can be blotchy and figured I'd try to condition it
before staining. I'd tried miniwax pre-stain conditioner with success
on another project but this time I wanted to try something new. I
shellac'ed, using Zinnser Amber.
SNIP

Chrisgiraffe wrote:
If my questions have already been answered elsewhere please forgive me
though I did search.

I have finished assembly/glue up of a small pine cabinet. I sanded the
surface working from 80 to 800 grit paper. I'd hoped to build a dark
stain. I know pine can be blotchy and figured I'd try to condition it
before staining. I'd tried miniwax pre-stain conditioner with success
on another project but this time I wanted to try something new. I
shellac'ed, using Zinnser Amber. Since this was my first time using
shellac I thought I'd do my best to screw it up unintentionally to
turn more hair gray. I read an article which recommended putting on
two coats. I can't say how many I put on because the first application
kept running and I kept going over the runs with my brush. I tried to
even what I had on out with a rag dipped in denatured alchohol, which
helped some but left me wondering if I had areas which were entirely
uncovered. I brushed more shellac on because I was feeling crazy. It
all dried and didn't look half bad but my guess is any uneveness will
show up in the final finish. That's question number one:


snip

To obtain a dark finish I would not have sanded the wood to 800 grit.
Sanding to the point of polishing the wood surface limits the amount of
stain the wood can absorb. Sanding to 220 grit would have provided a
smooth enough surface for any film finish to level out. The little
"valleys" left by sanding to 220 grit would have trapped more of the
stains pigments.

When using shellac as a pre-conditioner it's referred to as a "spit
coat", which is an approximate "1/2 lb cut", which is about 1/2 pound of
dewaxed shellac to a gallon of alcohol.

Out of the can Zinnser Bullseye Shellac is a three pound cut. It should
be thinned about 6:1 for use as a sanding sealer. Applying Bullseye
shellac straight out of the can will prevent any wood penetration of the
stain. Any stain applied over a three pound cut will be a "glaze"
remaining on top of the shellac. This glaze will most likely be
disturbed by any solvent based finish applied over the top of it.

Zinnser Bullseye Shellac is also contains quite a bit of wax. For use as
a sanding sealer, once mixed with alcohol, it should have been decanted
(Allow the wax to settle to the bottom of the jar and carefully pour off
the clear shellac on top for use). Zinnser "Seal Coat" is dewaxed
shellac and if it were used, it would need to be decanted.

The best I can suggest is wipe off as much of the shellac as possible
using an alcohol soaked rag (using proper ventilation of course), resand
to 220 grit, and start over.

As Paul Radovanic used to say, "Practice on scrap first. Because if you
don't you will be practicing on your project."

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Nova wrote:

Zinnser Bullseye Shellac is also contains quite a bit of wax. For use as
a sanding sealer, once mixed with alcohol, it should have been decanted
(Allow the wax to settle to the bottom of the jar and carefully pour off
the clear shellac on top for use). Zinnser "Seal Coat" is dewaxed
shellac and if it were used, it would need to be decanted.

Correction - The last sentence above should have read:

Zinnser "Seal Coat" is dewaxed shellac and if it were used, it would NOT
need to be decanted.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On 10 oct, 16:48, Chrisgiraffe wrote:
If my questions have already been answered elsewhere please forgive me
though I did search.

I have finished assembly/glue up of a small pine cabinet. I sanded the
surface working from 80 to 800 grit paper. I'd hoped to build a dark
stain. I know pine can be blotchy and figured I'd try to condition it
before staining. I'd tried miniwax pre-stain conditioner with success
on another project but this time I wanted to try something new. I
shellac'ed, using Zinnser Amber. Since this was my first time using
shellac I thought I'd do my best to screw it up unintentionally to
turn more hair gray. I read an article which recommended putting on
two coats. I can't say how many I put on because the first application
kept running and I kept going over the runs with my brush. I tried to
even what I had on out with a rag dipped in denatured alchohol, which
helped some but left me wondering if I had areas which were entirely
uncovered. I brushed more shellac on because I was feeling crazy. It
all dried and didn't look half bad but my guess is any uneveness will
show up in the final finish. That's question number one:

1. Will any uneven layers of a shellac topcoat produce an uneven
looking stain/finish?

My fear is that no matter how hard I try I will produce an uneven coat
of shellac though recent reading leads me to believe if I cut it next
to nothing with alchohol and build several ultra thin layers I might
have more luck.

Next, The cabinet is now what zinnser calls 'amber' and what I call
'orange'.

2. Have I used too much shellac? Should I use clear instead?

Next, the stain. I'm using Olympic stain out of the can. I put on one
coat, let it sit five to ten minutes and wiped it off. When I wiped it
off it looked as though I didn't do anything at all.

3. Does this stuff get darker or is this a joke perpetrated on my be
Olympic where I spend my life savings and life buying and pretending
to stain wood? There are some spots that will be hidden on the project
and are not covered by shellac which took the stain like I would
imagine stain should take. Have I blocked the stain from penetrating
the wood with the amount of shellac I applied?

4. I work in a dusty environment and accept this as a fact of my life.
If I were a multi-billionaire I'd contract NASA to build and orbit a
space station which had the best dust control imaginable but I'm a guy
on a budget working in his garage that also happens to be used for all
wood working, car parking, leaf parties, bug parties, etc. Am I asking
for too much to get my wood darkened and not blotchy? Is there any way
to speed up the staining process (thinning stain using mineral
spirits, etc.) or have more control over it? Am I doomed to guys
telling me I should just slather the piece in boiled linseed, teak or
some other oil and living with it?

Oh yeah, and I'm sure some one will tell me to run out and buy Bob
Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing" book so I'll stop you there.
Read it cover to cover and I still (obviously) don't understand, so
please don't use big words and do talk slowly so that maybe I'll get
it this time.

My temptation is to take off everything on the piece with thinner
(stain, if it's actually on) and alchohol for the shellac, thin the
shellac, apply two or more very thin coats, then retry the stain. I
have a feeling this might work or could get me back right where I am
now. Any thoughts?

yuu sanded tou much max 220ift the grain with water, and consider a
past stain which gives a more even coat.

On Oct 10, 6:28 pm, Nova wrote:

SNIP


As Paul Radovanic used to say, "Practice on scrap first. Because if you don't you will be practicing on your project."


An oldie, but goodie. Actually, a classic.

I first heard that when I entered the trades about 35 years ago (had
nothing to do with finishing), and it still hasn't lost its punch.

Robert

On Oct 10, 3:48 pm, Chrisgiraffe wrote:

SNIP

My temptation is to take off everything on the piece with thinner (stain, if it's actually on) and alchohol for the shellac, thin the shellac, apply two or more very thin coats, then retry the stain. I have a feeling this might work or could get me back right where I am now. Any thoughts?

I would recreate your first finish attempts on a piece of material
used in your construction, and see how well stripping, sanding, etc.
worked. Maybe a good idea, maybe a bad one.

Make sure you take a piece or two in your test finish and nail them up
at 90 degrees to simulate what you would be doing to the cabinet as
you will probably find it harder to get all the finish and certainly
the stain colorant out of the corners than you think.

In all honesty, it if was a fun little project and I didn't want to
spend too much more time on it I would just sand and paint at this
point. Stripping/sanding/refinshing/restaining pine and having it
come out to be something that looks really nice s difficult for anyone
to do.

Absolutely no insult intended.

Robert

wrote:
On Oct 10, 6:28 pm, Nova wrote:

SNIP

As Paul Radovanic used to say, "Practice on scrap first. Because if you don't you will be practicing on your project."


An oldie, but goodie. Actually, a classic.

Yet so many ignore it. G

Chrisgiraffe wrote:

I have finished assembly/glue up of a small pine cabinet. I sanded
the surface working from 80 to 800 grit paper.

Oh, man...talk about overkill...


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

A _very light_ application of shellac can be used to even out
a stain on some wood, but if you've applied more than one coat, the
stain will likely not take at all. Shellac builds a surface coat like
varnish or lacquer and once the wood is sealed, it can't be stained.

It might be possible to change the color somewhat by "toning", (IIRC
the right term) i.e. tinting one of the top coats. Good luck.

--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Larry W wrote:
A _very light_ application of shellac can be used to even out
a stain on some wood, but if you've applied more than one coat, the
stain will likely not take at all. Shellac builds a surface coat like
varnish or lacquer and once the wood is sealed, it can't be stained.

Pro quality "wiping" pigment stains, like Mohawk / H. Behlen, work very
well over a barrier coat of shellac. You wipe it on, and even it out
with a dry brush worked parallel to the grain. 20 minutes later you can
add the next step.

It might be possible to change the color somewhat by "toning", (IIRC
the right term) i.e. tinting one of the top coats. Good luck.

It does, and is not the same as the step I mentioned above.

As all have stated you have completly sealed the wood so penetrating
stains will not do anything now.

I would suggest MinWax Polyshades. It is polyurethane with color in
it. You can get it as dark as you want by selecting various colors and
by applying multiple layers (per instructions). and it will go right
over your shellac.Just be vary careful about getting even coats, even
overlapping edges while applying can cause darker patches so "practice
first" and be careful.

Beware, some here will fire theri cannons at any minwax product and
especially Polyshades but as long as you don't try to use it on
Cherry, they may let you (and I ) live.

BW

On Oct 10, 1:48 pm, Chrisgiraffe wrote:
If my questions have already been answered elsewhere please forgive me
though I did search.

I have finished assembly/glue up of a small pine cabinet. I sanded the
surface working from 80 to 800 grit paper. I'd hoped to build a dark
stain. I know pine can be blotchy and figured I'd try to condition it
before staining. I'd tried miniwax pre-stain conditioner with success
on another project but this time I wanted to try something new. I
shellac'ed, using Zinnser Amber. Since this was my first time using
shellac I thought I'd do my best to screw it up unintentionally to
turn more hair gray. I read an article which recommended putting on
two coats. I can't say how many I put on because the first application
kept running and I kept going over the runs with my brush. I tried to
even what I had on out with a rag dipped in denatured alchohol, which
helped some but left me wondering if I had areas which were entirely
uncovered. I brushed more shellac on because I was feeling crazy. It
all dried and didn't look half bad but my guess is any uneveness will
show up in the final finish. That's question number one:

1. Will any uneven layers of a shellac topcoat produce an uneven
looking stain/finish?

My fear is that no matter how hard I try I will produce an uneven coat
of shellac though recent reading leads me to believe if I cut it next
to nothing with alchohol and build several ultra thin layers I might
have more luck.

Next, The cabinet is now what zinnser calls 'amber' and what I call
'orange'.

2. Have I used too much shellac? Should I use clear instead?

Next, the stain. I'm using Olympic stain out of the can. I put on one
coat, let it sit five to ten minutes and wiped it off. When I wiped it
off it looked as though I didn't do anything at all.

3. Does this stuff get darker or is this a joke perpetrated on my be
Olympic where I spend my life savings and life buying and pretending
to stain wood? There are some spots that will be hidden on the project
and are not covered by shellac which took the stain like I would
imagine stain should take. Have I blocked the stain from penetrating
the wood with the amount of shellac I applied?

4. I work in a dusty environment and accept this as a fact of my life.
If I were a multi-billionaire I'd contract NASA to build and orbit a
space station which had the best dust control imaginable but I'm a guy
on a budget working in his garage that also happens to be used for all
wood working, car parking, leaf parties, bug parties, etc. Am I asking
for too much to get my wood darkened and not blotchy? Is there any way
to speed up the staining process (thinning stain using mineral
spirits, etc.) or have more control over it? Am I doomed to guys
telling me I should just slather the piece in boiled linseed, teak or
some other oil and living with it?

Oh yeah, and I'm sure some one will tell me to run out and buy Bob
Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing" book so I'll stop you there.
Read it cover to cover and I still (obviously) don't understand, so
please don't use big words and do talk slowly so that maybe I'll get
it this time.

My temptation is to take off everything on the piece with thinner
(stain, if it's actually on) and alchohol for the shellac, thin the
shellac, apply two or more very thin coats, then retry the stain. I
have a feeling this might work or could get me back right where I am
now. Any thoughts?

On Oct 11, 1:44 pm, "SonomaProducts.com" wrote:

As all have stated you have completly sealed the wood so penetrating stains will not do anything now.


I couldn't agree more. And whatever pigment penetrated before will
discolor the wood to the point of having to sand or plane it out.

I would suggest MinWax Polyshades. It is polyurethane with color in it.

SNIP

Beware, some here will fire theri cannons at any minwax product and especially Polyshades but as long as you don't try to use it on
Cherry, they may let you (and I ) live.

I laughed my ass off at that one. Absolutely nothing wrong with that
product for a great deal of applications. I have used it with great
success, although I haven't in a couple of years. It isn't my choice
for everyday use, but you should see me drive my handsome self down to
HD and get some when I have a contractor (or buddy) that says "I have
this much money, this much time, and all I really want is some color
on the cabinet(s)".

My response? "Meet me here tomorrow with a check."

And, thanks to Mike Marlow, I use the "hanging tack coat" method of
application and I can spray two coats of regular drying poly in a
day. Off and on a finish job in a day? I'll take it.

In my opinion, I think probably 90% of the reasons that people don't
like Minwax is due to operator error, not specific lack of product
performance. Just my opinion...

Robert
(still snickering at BW!)

Sincere thanks to everyone who replied. I'm going to strip it down and
start over. The next step is deciding whether to return to the
reliable miniwax wood conditioner or retry the shellac. I also read
somewhere that I could avoid blotching on pine by spreading on "a thin
coat of oil mixed,½ boiled linseed oil and ½ turpentine." Has anyone
ever tried this route?

Also, I've read about tinting shellac with analine dyes (transtint).
Has anyone ever tried to tint shellac with an oil stain?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Chrisgiraffe wrote:
I also read
somewhere that I could avoid blotching on pine by spreading on "a thin
coat of oil mixed,½ boiled linseed oil and ½ turpentine." Has anyone
ever tried this route?

Yeah. It's pretty much the same as using "Natural" stain as a pre-coat.

Chrisgiraffe wrote:

Sincere thanks to everyone who replied. I'm going to strip it down and
start over. The next step is deciding whether to return to the
reliable miniwax wood conditioner or retry the shellac. I also read
somewhere that I could avoid blotching on pine by spreading on "a thin
coat of oil mixed,½ boiled linseed oil and ½ turpentine." Has anyone
ever tried this route?


Applying a coat of boiled linseed oil will help in evening out the stain
as it would pre saturate the areas that would absorb more stain if dry.
For the same reason the BLO would also cause the final outcome to be
much lighter in color.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Chrisgiraffe" wrote:

I read somewhere that I could avoid blotching on pine by spreading on
"a thin
coat of oil mixed,½ boiled linseed oil and ½ turpentine." Has anyone
ever tried this route?

Look at the can of BLO.

That is the standard factory suggested method of cutting BLO for
application.

Lew

Nova wrote:
Chrisgiraffe wrote:

Sincere thanks to everyone who replied. I'm going to strip it down and
start over. The next step is deciding whether to return to the
reliable miniwax wood conditioner or retry the shellac. I also read
somewhere that I could avoid blotching on pine by spreading on "a thin
coat of oil mixed,½ boiled linseed oil and ½ turpentine." Has anyone
ever tried this route?


Applying a coat of boiled linseed oil will help in evening out the stain
as it would pre saturate the areas that would absorb more stain if dry.
For the same reason the BLO would also cause the final outcome to be
much lighter in color.

It's interesting to see how complicated this type of issue can get. For
years my company manufactured "country pine furniture" for the "Bale
Mill" furniture designers in Napa Valley, CA. I can tell you a great
way to get an even color of stain on that wood, even if you are trying
to stain it very dark but still want it even. Get a gel stain. There
are several out there. I personally like Olympic because they make an
interior/exterior gel tinting base that can be custom tinted. The gels
are excellent for unpredictable wood, even helping to hide glue
problems. You are on the right track to strip that shellac. You will
be very pleased with the results and amazed at how easily achieved a
great looking finish can be. For your dusty environment, spray your
project with laquer (nitro cellulose). It's fast drying. Your first
coat will be a sanding sealer. After the final coat is dry, take some
0000 steal wool and a few gentle wipes with "wool lube" from Mowhawk to
easily remove any residual air borne dust particles that have stuck, and
you will have the most velvet finish your heart could desire.

Gel stains have some percentage of polyurethane in them so they are a
derivation of the tinted varnish concept but in a thicker medium with
other interesting cohorts. So unlike an oil to carry a pigment that
penetrates well on very porous areas and less so on harder areas, the
gels carry the tint in a material that can film over the suface and
dry with the pigments captured in suspension. Oil does this a little,
but only a little. The gels don't penetrate any better, they just more
easily leave behind a tinted film is the easy way to say it.

On Oct 14, 7:11 pm, Mark Shafer wrote:
Nova wrote:
Chrisgiraffe wrote:

Sincere thanks to everyone who replied. I'm going to strip it down and
start over. The next step is deciding whether to return to the
reliable miniwax wood conditioner or retry the shellac. I also read
somewhere that I could avoid blotching on pine by spreading on "a thin
coat of oil mixed,½ boiled linseed oil and ½ turpentine." Has anyone
ever tried this route?

Applying a coat of boiled linseed oil will help in evening out the stain
as it would pre saturate the areas that would absorb more stain if dry.
For the same reason the BLO would also cause the final outcome to be
much lighter in color.

It's interesting to see how complicated this type of issue can get. For
years my company manufactured "country pine furniture" for the "Bale
Mill" furniture designers in Napa Valley, CA. I can tell you a great
way to get an even color of stain on that wood, even if you are trying
to stain it very dark but still want it even. Get a gel stain. There
are several out there. I personally like Olympic because they make an
interior/exterior gel tinting base that can be custom tinted. The gels
are excellent for unpredictable wood, even helping to hide glue
problems. You are on the right track to strip that shellac. You will
be very pleased with the results and amazed at how easily achieved a
great looking finish can be. For your dusty environment, spray your
project with laquer (nitro cellulose). It's fast drying. Your first
coat will be a sanding sealer. After the final coat is dry, take some
0000 steal wool and a few gentle wipes with "wool lube" from Mowhawk to
easily remove any residual air borne dust particles that have stuck, and
you will have the most velvet finish your heart could desire.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -