Group: rec.woodworking Date: Wed, Sep 17, 2003, 2:43am (EDT+5) From:
(gandalf)
Hi,
I've ordered one of these: (a loose tenon contraption)
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/beadlock/
My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or
am I just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?
=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=9 5=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=
=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=9 5=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=
=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95
It looks like a great idea and worth a go. I'm sure that anybody whose
nick name is Gandalf can work magick with this, quote, "contraption".
Cheers ~ Sir Edgar
=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F 8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=
=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8

"gandalf" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I've ordered one of these: (a loose tenon contraption)
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/beadlock/

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am
I
just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?



We have a review of this product online at
http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/reviews/beadlock.htm

if you wanted to have a read before making a purchasing decision


--
Regards,

Dean Bielanowski
Editor,
Online Tool Reviews
http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Latest 5 Reviews:
- Woodworking Techniques & Projects
- Kreg Right Angle Clamp
- Bosch 3912 (GCM12) 12" Compound Miter Saw
- Dowelmax Doweling System
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------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Yes
(2) No
"gandalf" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I've ordered one of these: (a loose tenon contraption)
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/beadlock/

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am
I
just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?

"gandalf" wrote in message ...

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am I
just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?

First disclaimer: I'm not associated with Beadlock in any way.
Second disclaimer: I've used it and also done traditional M/T joints.

The only downside is when you want to place the mortise in the middle
of think stock (and you can get around this by building a thick shim).
Other than that, it's well made and easy to use. The floating tenon
joint has been around for a long time and given modern glues, it
should never come apart.

Jo

"Todd" wrote in message ...
"gandalf" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I've ordered one of these: (a loose tenon contraption)
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/beadlock/

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am
I
just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?

As a disclaimer, I'll point out first that I have no experience with
Beadlock. My only comment is that having read this ng for a while that it
seems that the opinion of Beadlock is positive overall. Would you use it on
a museum piece? Probably not. But I could envision lots of uses for it.
And let's face it...nothing I'm making is gonna wind up in a museum.

todd
I have tried it, and it works as advertised. Well built unit. In
reviews of different types of joinery, the loose tendon is almost as
strong as MT joinery, and stronger than biscuit Joinery.
Scott
www.vmtw.com

"gandalf" wrote in message
...

Thanks folks for your responses.

I went and picked up the beastie this morning and I'll give it a go later this
afternoon. It seems well made, albeit simple in design, I'm sure many here could
simply make one.

One negative point however is the cost of the tenons. They're sold in packs of
three, each piece being about 1 foot long, for 4.95 UK sterling a pack (about 8
US dollars)

I sneaked this latest toy in under the wife's radar but now I think with some
subtle praise mixed with whinging I might just be able to motivate a router
table and the router bits to make my own tenons. (my wife has noticed that lots
of toys go into the garage but not a lot has come out....yet. So far she is not
giving me any grief, but it can't last)

Two of the major considerations for a glue joint is grain orientation and
glue area (and contact of the pieces).

Since you will be giving yourself a large glue area and the loose tenon will
provide long grain to long grain orientation in both pieces it should give
you a very strong joint.

--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"gandalf" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I've ordered one of these: (a loose tenon contraption)
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/beadlock/

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am
I
just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?

I bought the Beadlock kit which contains materials for both sizes.
I've used it to join the headboard of a bed, for example, to the
vertical posts. I got a remarkably precise fit, and I see no reason
why this should not remain a very strong joint. Nothing elegant about
it, but no visible fasteners, should be much stronger than biscuits.

One tip: use a corded drill to drill out the mortices. The higher
rpms seems to make the work go easier and produces better mortices.
They make router bits now so you can mill your own tennon stock. I
haven't tried that yet.

Overall this was a very worthwhile tool.

Brad



"gandalf" wrote in message ...
Hi,

I've ordered one of these: (a loose tenon contraption)
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/beadlock/

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am I
just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:43:47 +0100, "gandalf"
wrote:

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am I
just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?

Loose tenons are a perfectly respectable technique. A few downsides;
they won't last for 100 years (you're very reliant on glue lifetime)
-------
But isn't that the case with any joint? Whether it is a loose tennon or a real
one at least part of it is reliant on the glue.

When I went to school, many moons ago, we were taught to create what amounted to
a dovetail when chiselling out mortises (blind and through) and then use a wedge
in the tenon. This was something of a nightmare as it was unforgiving, if you
got it right it was wonderful, if you didn't there was no way you could get it
out again to 'fix' it. No one seems to do that now. Maybe we are too reliant on
the properties of various glues.

and you can't use them for decorative through tenons (maybe you could
- it would look different, but why not ?)
----------
Good point. I will try this with contrasting wood and see what it looks like.

As to the beadlock, then it's a cheap jig and expensive consumables.
----------
This is true.

If you have a router, then you may find that cutting round-ended
mortises with the router and a jig is as easy as drilling them with
the beadlock.
------------
I was going to buy this toy, still might.:
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/mtjig/

Hi Dave

Actually no one can say it is better then the methods you mention, it is
just a matter of perspective. It's just "another tool in the box"as they
say.

Glue joint strength depends on, besides correct milling, glue area and grain
orientation. Consider the loose tenon in the order of strength of a regular
M & T joint. In many cases, face frame construction for instance, a M $ T
joint is overkill and dowels or biscuits would be more then adequate.

However, on beefier construction one may want the strength of a mortise and
tenon type joint. In these cases, and don't ask which ones, that's a
judgment call on the part of the guy building the piece, the loose tenon kit
will give, for all practical purposes, the strength and racking resistance
of a regular M & T joint and, because of the jigs, it's easier to
make.Another point for the loose tenon joint is it cuts down on the amount
of, usually more expensive, primary wood since the pieces can be cut to
exact size and a less expensive wood is used for the loose tenon.

So, the loose tennon and/or M & T joint isn't necessarily better, just, in
some cases, more appropriate.

If it helps, and for an example, I am currently building a set of Dutch
Doors. Since I know that the full weight of the doors will be hanging off
only the hinge side stiles for the next, hopefully, couple of decades. and
that this makes the doors prime candidates for racking over time. Would a
double biscuit joint hold up and resist racking for those decades?

Frankly I don't know and I don't want to find out the hard way. Consequently
I chose conventional stub tenon joints. With that joint I know it won't rack
on me.

I should also add that the wife had me out looking at a lot of doors. I
noticed that every one of those doors I looked at still used M &T joints in
the construction even though biscuit joints are less labor and time
intensive as well as what it saves on primary stock. If a company that turns
out thousands of doors passes on savings in labor and materials I figure
they must have a good reason. .

Hope it helps
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net

OK, i am not really understanding. What makes this better than simply
using 2 or 3 dowels and why is it better than double biscuits? Is it
more accurate than a good dowel jig? I assume that it is stronger than
a double biscuit?

Dave Hall

No problem at all with strength. A loose tenon is very very close to
strength in a typical M&T joint. In some cases it may even be stronger
if the loose tenon has better properties than the joined pieces.

That being said, I guess the bead shape helps in getting or keeping
alignment but it seem strange to me. Their are only two situations
that I find myself choosing loose tenons.

1. When I Fu%^&* up a normal tenon.

2. When I am worried about alignment. For instance a 4 sided frame
with internal members (like mission oak picketed furniture). A loose
tenon on the bottom joints makes it very easy to undersize the tenon
if I need more adjustment to sinch up the bottom spreader or move it
out to accomodate the length of the pickets. You can do this with a
normal tenon also but it is a little less flexible and a lot harder
(or takes longer) to do.

So the beads assure alignment, which in most cases is great but not
always.

"gandalf" wrote in message ...
Hi,

I've ordered one of these: (a loose tenon contraption)
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/beadlock/

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am I
just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:43:47 +0100, "gandalf"
wrote:

Hi,

I've ordered one of these: (a loose tenon contraption)
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/beadlock/

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am I
just kidding myself?

Well, the glue area should be the same as a m/t joint. For me, its
more than adequate. I'm working on a set of patio chairs each
containing 18 m/t joints. I'm on my 5th chair and have not experienced
a less than perfect joint or alignment. Much faster than traditional
m/t joints also.
My only niggle with the product is that one cannot use a drill bit
collar stop with the Beadlock. And yes, the tenon stock is pricey so I
purchased the 1/2" tenon router bit and find with a minor amount of
fiddling I can make tenon stock out of any wood I wish.
Ya really shoulda done a Google search on the product as part of your
research.

TomL

gandalf wrote:
I was going to buy this toy, still might.:
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/mtjig/

If anyone's interested, ShopNotes has plans for a very similar
mortising setup...I can lookup the issue if requested.

C

--
************************************
Chris Merrill

(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************

Chris Merrill wrote:
gandalf wrote:
I was going to buy this toy, still might.:
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/mtjig/

If anyone's interested, ShopNotes has plans for a very similar
mortising setup...I can lookup the issue if requested.

Requested.

-- Mark

Why not just use biscuits or dowels?

Phil

gandalf wrote:
Hi,

I've ordered one of these: (a loose tenon contraption)
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/beadlock/

My query is: Is it really an adequate alternative to real M/T joints or am I
just kidding myself? Is there a downside to this simple approach?

Andy Dingley wrote:

As to the beadlock, then it's a cheap jig and expensive consumables.
If you have a router, then you may find that cutting round-ended
mortices with the router and a jig is as easy as drilling them with
the beadlock. This way you can also make your own tenon stock with
just some dimensioned beech stock and a few passes over a roundover
bit in a router table.

Trend will also sell you a handy router bit to enable you to manufacture
more beadlock stock for yourself.

Peter

gandalf wrote:

I was going to buy this toy, still might.:
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/mtjig/

Furniture & Cabinetmaking mag did a review of that and it was very
positive. I covet one of those but am saving the purchase for when SWMBO
wants something like chairs that need angled M&T joints. Currently she
wants 'another one'. The 'one' being a small and simple spice rack, the
problem being I hand ripped 10mm thick stock from the face of offcuts of
metric 2x4, 2.5m of it in total, sigh. Ah well, at least my sawing arm
is now up to the job ;-)

Peter
Who does not own a table saw or a bandsaw and tends to masochism in such
things anyway.

"Phil" wrote in message
...
Why not just use biscuits or dowels?
-----------
I've got a Biscuit Jointer, it's great for edge to edge stuff and lining things
up but I don't think biscuits have any intrinsic strength and I doubt they would
be suitable for joints where 'racking' may be a problem. Right now I'm making a
bench for my CMS and I don't want any movement or even the slightest possibility
of the whole lot falling apart under stress.

Dowels would work if I used enough of them. This 'Beadlock' jobby is really
little more than a few dowels stuck together anyway. But every time I've used
dowels (long...long.. time ago), I screw it up and the joints are skew - I do
need jigs and contraptions to make up for my lack of skill. But you have given
me an idea for reducing the cost of the tenons, I might just be able to get
dowel of the right size and plane it down to suit.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:59:39 -0400, Phil wrote:

Why not just use biscuits or dowels?

Biscuits are wide, even the 0 size. Although you can replace tenons
with them in something big, like a door frame, there are lots of
furniture applications where there isn't really enoughh space.

"?Well built unit. In
reviews of different types of joinery, the loose tendon is almost as
strong as MT joinery, and stronger than biscuit Joinery.

I don't know about anyone else, but I thought that tendonds weren't supposed
to be loose, and tended to hurt badly when they are (not to mention not
holding things right)?

--randy

Mark Jerde wrote:
Chris Merrill wrote:
If anyone's interested, ShopNotes has plans for a very similar
mortising setup...I can lookup the issue if requested.

Requested.

ShopNotes #64:
http://store.yahoo.com/backissuesstore/sn064.html

The pictures shown are not particularly detailed...but I recall that when
I read the issue, I was impressed. It's on my (long) list of things
to do.

--
************************************
Chris Merrill

(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************

I built this a couple of months ago. It works great.

So well infact I'm selling my hollow chisel mortiser.


On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:28:47 GMT, Chris Merrill
wrote:

Mark Jerde wrote:
Chris Merrill wrote:
If anyone's interested, ShopNotes has plans for a very similar
mortising setup...I can lookup the issue if requested.

Requested.

ShopNotes #64:
http://store.yahoo.com/backissuesstore/sn064.html

The pictures shown are not particularly detailed...but I recall that when
I read the issue, I was impressed. It's on my (long) list of things
to do.