I am looking at building a 18 foot Jon boat and I want to design it on
paper/the pc first I would love to be able to find a program that I
could design it in 3d so it was easy to change/add/remove things on
the fly to see what I like before going and buying my materials.

I have tried a few programs so far with no luck I need something
simple preferably something geared toward woodworking.

If all else fails I gues I will break out the paper and pencile but I
just though there had to be a better way, sofar im not seing it .

On Jul 11, 1:01 am, redice wrote:
I am looking at building a 18 foot Jon boat and I want to design it on
paper/the pc first I would love to be able to find a program that I
could design it in 3d so it was easy to change/add/remove things on
the fly to see what I like before going and buying my materials.
google sketchup. free and becoming a standard 3D and fairly easy to
learn.

On Jul 11, 1:04 am, Mike in Arkansas wrote:
On Jul 11, 1:01 am, redice wrote: I am looking at building a 18 foot Jon boat and I want to design it on
paper/the pc first I would love to be able to find a program that I
could design it in 3d so it was easy to change/add/remove things on
the fly to see what I like before going and buying my materials.

google sketchup. free and becoming a standard 3D and fairly easy to
learn.

I tried it out funny I kept skipping over it because I figured it
wasn't what I was looking for, so far its the easiest thing I have
worked with but its still a bugger.

If that's the only project on the horizon, break out the pencil and
paper. I have used Turbocad for many years (mostly 2D), making one
to three drawings per week. It is frustrating to me to KNOW that the
command is out there somewhere, but to spend a half hour trying to
locate it. I used to get going pretty well on the drawing and then get
stumped for a while trying to figure out how to do this one thing!
I almost force myself to draw up even the simple things, just to
keep conversant with the software.
Also, every time thay upgrade the program it gets harder to use, and
they seem to always move some menu items around to who knows where.
People who use a CAD program all the time tell me how "easy" this
one or that one is, but their is a tremendous amount of rote learning
involved in any of them as far as I can tell.

I don't consider myself a dynosaur, either. If you were asking whether
to use pencil and paper or a spreadsheet, I wouldn't hesitate to get you
involved with a spreadsheet like Excel.

When I saw the first reply to your request, I downloaded Sketchup
myself. The tutorial is kinda neat, but in 4 or 5 minutes, you are
back to the rote learning part in order to become productive, as far as
I can see.

Again, if you are young, and you expect to be building a lot of things
in the future, get into some kind of CAD because that's the way the
world WILL be and you want to be able to BS about it at the coffee shop.
But, if you just want to get that boat built, get out the pencil and
paper.

I'd like to see more people respond to your question!

Pete Stanaits
------------------------

redice wrote:
I am looking at building a 18 foot Jon boat and I want to design it on
paper/the pc first I would love to be able to find a program that I
could design it in 3d so it was easy to change/add/remove things on
the fly to see what I like before going and buying my materials.

I have tried a few programs so far with no luck I need something
simple preferably something geared toward woodworking.

If all else fails I gues I will break out the paper and pencile but I
just though there had to be a better way, sofar im not seing it .

spaco wrote:

I'd like to see more people respond to your question!

Pete Stanaits
-----
I've tried a half-dozen and keep coming back to sketches on typing
paper. It takes so much effort to operate the software that I lose track
of the drawing that USED to be floating around in my head. But a pencil
.... now that's something I already know how to use.

A few quick lines to get the concept down on paper and then a detail
drawing or three to work out any remaining puzzlers.

Bill
--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com


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On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:40:50 -0400, BillinDetroit
wrote:

spaco wrote:

I'd like to see more people respond to your question!

Pete Stanaits
-----
I've tried a half-dozen and keep coming back to sketches on typing
paper. It takes so much effort to operate the software that I lose track
of the drawing that USED to be floating around in my head. But a pencil
... now that's something I already know how to use.

A few quick lines to get the concept down on paper and then a detail
drawing or three to work out any remaining puzzlers.

If it is mostly straight lines then sketchup works really well and
easily. I find being able to put in the major features and then spin
it around in 3D to look at it from multiple perspectives something I
just can't get from a pencil drawing. I will sometimes even leave off
the details and then pencil them in on the printout because it's
easier that way.

For a boat, well I think sketchup will just give you a headache.


-Leuf

Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 6:01am (EDT+4) (redice) doth come
in and sayeth:
I am looking at building a 18 foot Jon boat and I want to design it on
paper/the pc first I would love to be able to find a program that I
could design it in 3d so it was easy to change/add/remove things on the
fly to see what I like before going and buying my materials. snip

What's to design? It's a John (Jon) boat. You could almost go out
and make one in less time than it would take to 'design' one.

I've thought before about gtting a PC, in large part so I could get
some design programs, incloding for boats. Then when I came to my
senses, stayd with pencil and paper. If I want '3-D', then I make real
3-D. I use poaster board and hot glue and make a model I can actually
hold in my hands. You can see things you do or don't like about the
design a Hell of a lot faster and easiir that way then you can with a
so-called '3-D' view on a screen or piece of paper. Besides, then you
get a littlee boat to play with too.



JOAT
I do things I don't know how to do, so that I might learn how to do
them.
- Picasso

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 06:01:30 +0000, redice wrote:

I am looking at building a 18 foot Jon boat and I want to design it on
paper/the pc first I would love to be able to find a program that I
could design it in 3d so it was easy to change/add/remove things on the
fly to see what I like before going and buying my materials.

I have tried a few programs so far with no luck I need something simple
preferably something geared toward woodworking.

If all else fails I gues I will break out the paper and pencile but I
just though there had to be a better way, sofar im not seing it .

Don't give up on pencil and paper, it is a very effective design
medium.

I think the trick you need is to change to transparent paper, readily
available at office or art stores in rolls. This allows you to trace
over 3-4 previous versions subtly improving on each version until
complete. Re-drawing is then a piece of cake. Start out with a grid
paper underneath and buy an architectural and/or engineering scale to
maintain real dimensions and you will be amazed at how fast you can do
quality drawings.

I use 3D design software at work all day but it's usefulness most
relates to production and collaboration issues. The initial drawing
still takes as long or longer than a hand drawing.


--
Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]

Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 6:21pm (EDT+4)
(digitect) doth sayeth:
snip I think the trick you need is to change to transparent paper,
readily available at office or art stores in rolls. This allows you to
trace over 3-4 previous versions subtly improving on each version until
complete. Re-drawing is then a piece of cake. Start out with a grid
paper underneath and buy an architectural and/or engineering scale to
maintain real dimensions and you will be amazed at how fast you can do
quality drawings. snip

You could do that. Or use a light box. I use the cheapest oopy
paper I can find. sketch my design with light lines, slightly darken
whichever lines I like, sketch in new lines as dark as the ones I
darkened; repeat, periodcally erasing the unwanted lines; repeat until I
get what I want; then usually go over it with a fine tip marker to
highlight it. Far as I''m concerned, beats the Hell out of tracing and
retracng..



JOAT
I do things I don't know how to do, so that I might learn how to do
them.
- Picasso

Leuf wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:40:50 -0400, BillinDetroit
wrote:

spaco wrote:

I'd like to see more people respond to your question!

Pete Stanaits
-----
I've tried a half-dozen and keep coming back to sketches on typing
paper. It takes so much effort to operate the software that I lose track
of the drawing that USED to be floating around in my head. But a pencil
... now that's something I already know how to use.

A few quick lines to get the concept down on paper and then a detail
drawing or three to work out any remaining puzzlers.

If it is mostly straight lines then sketchup works really well and
easily. I find being able to put in the major features and then spin
it around in 3D to look at it from multiple perspectives something I
just can't get from a pencil drawing. I will sometimes even leave off
the details and then pencil them in on the printout because it's
easier that way.

For a boat, well I think sketchup will just give you a headache.


-Leuf

It might just be a matter of different backgrounds, but an orthographic
projection works well for me with the two / three plane views if I need
to show detail. From these, I can do a quick section view if I need to
nail things down in even more detail.

I'd LIKE to use a drafting program if only because they usually do the
math for you ... that is, you can draw a bunch of details and dimension
them accurately about as fast as you can click a mouse. And it's easier
to send a drawing in that format than it is to scan a sketch.

Maybe I'll give it another swing ... I have Sketchup installed.

I think you have just said the magic words that justify buying plans if
I ever get around to making a boat in my basement. ;-)

Bill

--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com


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On Jul 14, 12:46 am, BillinDetroit wrote:
Leuf wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:40:50 -0400, BillinDetroit
wrote:

spaco wrote:

I'd like to see more people respond to your question!

Pete Stanaits
-----
I've tried a half-dozen and keep coming back to sketches on typing
paper. It takes so much effort to operate the software that I lose track
of the drawing that USED to be floating around in my head. But a pencil
... now that's something I already know how to use.

A few quick lines to get the concept down on paper and then a detail
drawing or three to work out any remaining puzzlers.

If it is mostly straight lines then sketchup works really well and
easily. I find being able to put in the major features and then spin
it around in 3D to look at it from multiple perspectives something I
just can't get from a pencil drawing. I will sometimes even leave off
the details and then pencil them in on the printout because it's
easier that way.

For a boat, well I think sketchup will just give you a headache.

-Leuf

It might just be a matter of different backgrounds, but an orthographic
projection works well for me with the two / three plane views if I need
to show detail. From these, I can do a quick section view if I need to
nail things down in even more detail.

I'd LIKE to use a drafting program if only because they usually do the
math for you ... that is, you can draw a bunch of details and dimension
them accurately about as fast as you can click a mouse. And it's easier
to send a drawing in that format than it is to scan a sketch.

Maybe I'll give it another swing ... I have Sketchup installed.

I think you have just said the magic words that justify buying plans if
I ever get around to making a boat in my basement. ;-)

Bill

--
I'm not not at the above address.http://nmwoodworks.com

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- Show quoted text -

Thanks for all the replies we pretty much gave up on the designing and
are just going to do it as we build it, me and my father both can see
things in our head pretty darn well and once we get talking we can
usualy figure stuff out we bought all the framing materials we will be
needing and decided to go with a 5 foot wide hull by 16' long and 6
foot wide at the top of the transom based off of our other boat then
probably 18 foot from the transom to the tip of the bow but that
hasn't been decided yet were going to frame out from the transom up to
the start of the bow then figure that out. Oh ya and 2 foot hight
sides with a cut out in the transom for the motor.

Will have to take some picture of the process should be intresting,
will be a while thought have to do some other stuff around here first.

Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 4:53pm (EDT+4) (redice) dt sayeth:
Thanks for all the replies we pretty much gave up on the designing and
are just going to do it as we build it, me and my father both can see
things in our head snip
decided to go with a 5 foot wide hull by 16' long and 6 foot wide at the
top of the transom snip
Oh ya and 2 foot hight sides with a cut out in the transom for the
motor.
Will have to take some picture of the process should be intresting, will
be a while thought have to do some other stuff around here first.

That was a lot to wad thru, until I got to your pst.

That's the way I figure t, yu see one Jon boat, you pretty muc know
how tey're designed. But the question is, do the thingsin your head
talk to you too LOL

Width. That's one part where I don't agree, I'd go with straight
up and down sides, for a number of reasons. EAsier, faster, you look
over the side without leanin and tht tips the boat less - stabeler.
Two foot high sdes is good, especially if you've got kids in the
boat. But I would not cut out the transom for an outboard, I'd put a
mount outside. Or, if I did cut out, I'd aake a well forward of that,
so there ould be no cut out lower than th sides - no telling when you
could get a wave from behind.

Pictres are good. But only links here. If you post the pictures
themselves, do it on a.b.p.w
news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking



JOAT
I do things I don't know how to do, so that I might learn how to do
them.
- Picasso

On Jul 13, 1:38 pm, (J T) wrote:
Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 6:01am (EDT+4) (redice) doth come
in and sayeth:
I am looking at building a 18 foot Jon boat and I want to design it on
paper/the pc first I would love to be able to find a program that I
could design it in 3d so it was easy to change/add/remove things on the
fly to see what I like before going and buying my materials. snip

What's to design? It's a John (Jon) boat. You could almost go out
and make one in less time than it would take to 'design' one.

I've thought before about gtting a PC, in large part so I could get
some design programs, incloding for boats. Then when I came to my
senses, stayd with pencil and paper. If I want '3-D', then I make real
3-D. I use poaster board and hot glue and make a model I can actually
hold in my hands. You can see things you do or don't like about the
design a Hell of a lot faster and easiir that way then you can with a
so-called '3-D' view on a screen or piece of paper. Besides, then you
get a littlee boat to play with too.

Learned AutoCAD like it was second nature. Learned how
to write custom menus, AutoLISP commands, blocks, wblocks,
ad nauseum ad infinitum. Went back to yellow #2 pencil and
9 x 12 sketchbook, haven't looked back. ACAD doesn't
give me the same sense of space, weight, or volume that
I get from even a roughly executed 2 point perspective pencil
sketch. ACAD is good for refining, checking interference between
moving parts, but it slows down the initial design stages. Sure,
my sketches are loaded with eraser smudges, but do they really
matter if I'm the only end user?

On Jul 13, 2:21 pm, digitect wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 06:01:30 +0000, redice wrote:
I am looking at building a 18 foot Jon boat and I want to design it on
paper/the pc first I would love to be able to find a program that I
could design it in 3d so it was easy to change/add/remove things on the
fly to see what I like before going and buying my materials.

I have tried a few programs so far with no luck I need something simple
preferably something geared toward woodworking.

If all else fails I gues I will break out the paper and pencile but I
just though there had to be a better way, sofar im not seing it .

Don't give up on pencil and paper, it is a very effective design
medium.

I think the trick you need is to change to transparent paper, readily
available at office or art stores in rolls. This allows you to trace
over 3-4 previous versions subtly improving on each version until
complete.

Or do what cartoonists do. Make your rough sketch with a blue
pencil, then overdraw with an HB (same as #2) or darker black pencil.
Vellum is nice for pencil work because you can erase it over and
over again, cleanly, without shredding the surface.

Re-drawing is then a piece of cake. Start out with a grid
paper underneath and buy an architectural and/or engineering scale to
maintain real dimensions and you will be amazed at how fast you can do
quality drawings.

Eventually, you won't even need the grid paper.

Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 3:03pm (EDT-3)
(Father*Haskell)
snip Went back to yellow #2 pencil and 9 x 12 sketchbook, haven't
looked back. snip Sure, my sketches are loaded with eraser smudges,
but do they really matter if I'm the only end user?

Gee, I always do it right th first time, so no eraser marks. LMAO
However, I have been known to paint over the smudged lines with white
latex, so I could make out the lines I actually wanted to save. That
doesn't happen often. Now if it gets that far, I usually just go over
it with black marker, then trace on a new sheet, and go from there.
Usualy neither is necessary tho. Oh yes, now I prefer thos cheap Pentel
type pencil, a dozen or so for a buck or two, work great, and they come
with 2-3 spare leads..



JOAT
I do things I don't know how to do, so that I might learn how to do
them.
- Picasso

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:12:50 -0700, Father Haskell wrote:
On Jul 13, 2:21 pm, digitect wrote:

Re-drawing is then a piece of cake. Start out with a grid paper
underneath and buy an architectural and/or engineering scale to
maintain real dimensions and you will be amazed at how fast you
can do quality drawings.

Eventually, you won't even need the grid paper.

Grids help to keep the logic, especially if you draw freehand. Of
course, I'm thinking about architecture, I guess with furniture or
curved objects like a boat it may not be as useful. But if you can
instantly see how big something is as you're drawing, you don't need
to stop every line to measure.


--
Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]

Tue, Jul 17, 2007, 1:14am (EDT+4)
(digitect) doth sayeth:
Grids help to keep the logic, especially if you draw freehand. Of
course, I'm thinking about architecture, I guess with furniture or
curved objects like a boat it may not be as useful. But if you can
instantly see how big something is as you're drawing, you don't need to
stop every line to measure.

Maybe. Personaly I usually only use grid paper when I come across
what's left of the pad, then I normally just use it same as reguar
paper. it does come in handy at times if I'm sketching something long,
it helps keep the lines parrall faster and easier. The only real use I
find for it is if you want to enlarge the whtever on to wood. Sketch
out the design on the paper. Lay out a grid on the wood to the scale
you want. Carefully copy the lines in the paper sqares to the squares
on the wood. You can even do the same by drawing 1/4' grid on a pictue
or drawing then enlarging in the sauares on the wood. Low-tech, but
works, and you don't need to be a sketch artist to do it. I don't
recall the last tme I've done that tho. I also have an as new
pantograph that I've nver used. I just prefer free-handing.



JOAT
I do things I don't know how to do, so that I might learn how to do
them.
- Picasso