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Help with Jointer Setup
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message . .. Hiya, I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help. I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I checked the tables and they seem fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board on it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very, very fine line between snipe and taper here or is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique is fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've been using a jointer with no problems). Cheers, cc Hiya Folks, Well I think I got it working. I adjusted the height of the outfeed table relative to the blades and was able to get it cutting without snipe and without creating that taper I was getting. Thanks much for the info. If nothing else, it was a colorful thread! What I learned: The jointer needs to be set up to within a gnat's ass in the way of tolerances. And, I need to buy a better blade. I too use the jointer to remove the blade marks. Cheers. cc |
Help with Jointer Setup
Bill in Detroit wrote:
: Andrew Barss wrote: : Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting : parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to : other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a : reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't give : you anything comparable. : : -- Andy Barss : A straight edge is not the same as a parallel edge. Indeed it isn't. All I was saying is that comparing (a) jointing an edge of a board with a jointer (against the reference bed of the jointer) isn't at all similar to freehand ripping on a tablesaw (i..e without the fence). You can make a : straight edge quite easily with only a plane. You can even make a : straight edge on two opposite sides of the same board. But getting them : straight AND parallel is an altogether different proposition. Do the : geometry ... without referencing the opposite edge, how will you know if : the two edges are parallel? : There IS a way ... but the jointer can't use it. As I clearly stated in my original post, I agree that the jointer is not the proper tool to use to create parallel edges. -- Andy Barss |
Help with Jointer Setup
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message . .. Hiya Folks, Well I think I got it working. I adjusted the height of the outfeed table relative to the blades and was able to get it cutting without snipe and without creating that taper I was getting. Thanks much for the info. If nothing else, it was a colorful thread! What I learned: The jointer needs to be set up to within a gnat's ass in the way of tolerances. And, I need to buy a better blade. I too use the jointer to remove the blade marks. Well, as close as possible, within wood tolerances. Though I'm still puzzled how you got the beginning of a board, as presented, narrower than the end which followed. That's characteristic of table droop, not high outfeed. What's most interesting about this thread is the number of people who don't understand how a jointer works. Hopefully you're not one of them now, having learned that the jointer removes a measured amount of stock determined by the exposure of the knives from a board rested on the table for best average straightness. If you have parallel edges, they will remain parallel if you use your properly adjusted jointer to clip the edges. Andrew seems to have set up his own straw man, but he's right in saying that you don't _make_ stock parallel with a jointer normally. Takes scribing and working it as the big plane it is to do that. But, if your tablesaw produces a parallel but slightly fuzzy edge because you've gone too long between sharpenings, or you're feeding too fast and it vibrates, or you tuck it a bit into the side as you transition to the push-stick, &cetera ... you can clean it up with a quick pass on the jointer prior to gluing. Some of us are so lazy in the other areas we allow for one pass in our original rip. Or three, with lower grade lumber where we might release tension and get a bow in the resulting piece. Thing is to be smart enough to sight it and repair it at the jointer. Betting ripping misfeeds and less-than-great lumber are the reasons for people's stance against jointers. Had they sighted after the rip, they might have other opinions. |
Help with Jointer Setup
"George" wrote in message
But, apparently, not the obvious, which is that a parallel edge produced by ripping against a _jointer-straightened_ edge, not the straw man, will remain parallel if a measured amount is removed along one edge by the jointer. LOL! Quite different from your earlier, blanket statement, but close enough for some purposes ... just like the results often obtained from using a jointer for other than it's primary purpose. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 2/07/07 |
Help with Jointer Setup
Leon wrote:
: "Andrew Barss" wrote in message : ... : Leon wrote: : : A non fixed opposite reference that insures exact results of the piece : being : : processed. Ask this question, what is it about a TS WITH OUT a fence : that : : would cause it to produce a cut that is tapered? : : Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting : parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to : other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a : reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't : give : you anything comparable. : : -- Andy Bars : With each pass of the board across the jointer knives which are banging : against the board that they are cutting, the reference,"you", cannot : provide absolute resistance like a TS fence or thickness planer base. There : is too much give in your hands and skin to insure a perfectly straight path : across the knives. The path may seem smooth and controlled however the : resulting taper is proof that some give in your hold is the culprit. The : shallower the cut the longer it takes for the taper to "visually" appear. Pleae reread what I said, and/or the followup I posted. I am *agreeing with you* that a jointer isn't able to give parallel edges. But you were comparing (a) trying to get a parallel edge on a board using a jointer to (b) trying to do the same thing on a TS without a fence. As I said, it's not a very good analogy. -- Andy Barss |
Help with Jointer Setup
"Mike Marlow" writes:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message .net... Stoutman wrote: Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer?? Possibly. There is no parallel reference on a jointer. Jointers make a face flat, and/or one face an exact angle to another, based on the setting of the fence. Parallel edges or faces obtained on a jointer are based on luck. G I have to question this. What is it about a jointer that would cause it to produce a piece that is tapered? What is it about a jointer that would cause it to produce a piece that is NOT tapered? Properly set up infeed/outfeed/cutterhead relationships should indeed provide a non-tapered result. Well, that depends on what you are starting with. If the board already has straight and parallel faces, then a "properly set up" jointer in the hands of a good operator probably won't add a taper, if you're just making a single shallow pass. That is what people that "rip to width, clean up on jointer" rely on. When you're starting with a cupped/twisted/bowed board and want to flatten both sides, the chances that the two flattened faces will end up parallel is pretty remote. That's why people flatten one side on the jointer, then dimension the lumber on a planer. ...but I'm sure you agree, and the current argument is about the "rip to width, clean up on jointer" process. (Some of the context has been lost by editing.) So why bring in the flattening process? Because I'm sure you'll also agree that the process of flattening will have rather different results depending on how the operator applies pressure, particularly in the transfer of weight from the infeed side to the outfeed side. Especially in the beginning stages when there is still lots of curve in the board - if you push one way to start cleaning up one part of the board, you'll get a different result from what you'd get if you started with pressure on a different point. That's where skill comes in. ...so I would argue (perhaps not strongly) that even when edge jointing the saw-cut face, an operator that doesn't shift and balance pressure between the infeed and outfeed sides runs the possibility of not making an even cut, because there is nothing intrinsic in the design of the jointer to prevent such uneven cutting. ...but I'd agree that this effect would be very small on a single, shallow pass. And I think you'd probably agree that an unskilled operator that takes several passes to both smooth the saw cut and reduce the board width runs a risk of accumulating single unnoticable tapers into a multi-pass noticable taper, because the jointer isn't going to do anything to prevent it. Do you expect your router to leave a tapered piece? What's the difference between what the router is doing and what the jointer is doing? I think you've been settling for too little in your jointer setup. Or - am I out to lunch? No, just disagreeing on what to have for a snack. |
Help with Jointer Setup
"George" writes:
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message ... Hiya Folks, Well I think I got it working. I adjusted the height of the outfeed table relative to the blades and was able to get it cutting without snipe and without creating that taper I was getting. Thanks much for the info. If nothing else, it was a colorful thread! What I learned: The jointer needs to be set up to within a gnat's ass in the way of tolerances. And, I need to buy a better blade. I too use the jointer to remove the blade marks. Well, as close as possible, within wood tolerances. Though I'm still puzzled how you got the beginning of a board, as presented, narrower than the end which followed. That's characteristic of table droop, not high outfeed. I can think of two possibilities: 1) the board is bowed (not straight, end-to-end), and he's holding the board with the ends up and the middle down (as opposed to ends down and middle up), and he's starting the cutting with pressure on the front of the board, so the front edge is cut in the first pass. The tail of the board is then well above the knifes when it gets there, on the first pass. Subsequent passes keep cutting at the front, and eventually cut at the back as the surface flattens, but the end result is a flat face with a thin edge at the front (cut on every pass) and a thick one at the back (only cut on last pass). Put pressure on the back first, and the opposite occurs. You need to start with pressure in the middle, not the ends - or even better, turn the board over so it sits on the two ends and they get knocked off together. This is "technique". The less flat the board, the more important that the technique be good. 2) something is a bit loose in the jointer tables. With no pressure on them, everything seems to line up just fine - it is "properly set up". As soon as pressure is placed on the infeed or outfeed table, however, it droops. Thus, the droop or misalignment is there when cutting, but not apparent when measured during setup. |
Help with Jointer Setup
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message ... Are you using a dial indicator to align your outfeed table with the blades? If not, I highly recommend it. The TS-aligner Jr works well for this task. -- Stoutman www.garagewoodworks.com No. I've never been able to figure out how to use a dial indicator for anything. I set it up, then find I need to move it to get another "confirming" measurement so to speak. I know, I'm stupid in that respect. I did finally get the jointer working well. Just took a few minutes setting the outfeed table and blades. Cheers, cc --- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000713-4, 02/14/2007 Tested on: 2/14/2007 6:56:25 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com Cubby ... find a machinist who is willing to show you how. The whole thing takes just moments. The indicator is used for a single series of measurements with the understanding that you will need to do the same 3 second setup each time you start over. I could show you how in 5 minutes and show you WAAAY mor than you will ever need to know in 30. But I doubt if I can write anything up here that will make much sense. Understand that 1) the indicator must be firmly attached to a stable base. 2) this stable base is resting on / sliding over the reference plane (ie; on a jointer, one of the tables) 3) the surface being adjusted will end up parallel to that plane. 4) the adjustements to be made will consist of something called 'successive approximation' ... even if you make the measurements under laboratory conditions, there will always be measureable error left. If you can no longer measure the error, great. But a better test instrument could. 5) the smallest level of error you can reliably count on is 1/2 of 1 division on the dial. That is, a dial indictaor marked in .001" increments can be relied on to within .0005" +- .00025" To put this in perspective: at .003" you cannot see wich of two blocks is the larger. Below .001" it is highly unlikely that you can feel the difference between them. All of which is to say ... don't waste time trying for more accuracy and precision than you need. If you can reliably make cuts to within 1/64" of where you intended them, you are a better man than I am and far better than many who nonetheless do outstanding work. An indicator is an excellent way to set a blade. Mark my words. But it is not the only way to skin that particular cat. Bill -- Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one rascal less in the world. Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881) http://nmwoodworks.com --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000713-4, 02/14/2007 Tested on: 2/14/2007 7:15:06 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
Help with Jointer Setup
"Andrew Barss" wrote in message ... As I said, it's not a very good analogy. What woud be a better analogy? |
Help with Jointer Setup
I'm not Leon but am an experienced plane user. It works much the same way as
a jointer and it, like the jointer will not in any way ensure that the planed side is parallel to the other side. "George" wrote in message t... So just how does a plane work, Leon? |
Help with Jointer Setup
Your saw is way ahead of my Craftsman direct drive and, with it, I can go
from saw to glue up. "Stoutman" .@. wrote in message ... Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw at my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this operation. |
Help with Jointer Setup
"CW" wrote in message k.net... Your saw is way ahead of my Craftsman direct drive and, with it, I can go from saw to glue up. "Stoutman" .@. wrote in message ... Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw at my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this operation. Ok. So what is your point? I think it is either that: A) I am a ****ty craftsman B) I have higher standards for glue-ups. -- Stoutman www.garagewoodworks.com |
Help with Jointer Setup
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:15:24 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:
"CW" wrote in message nk.net... Your saw is way ahead of my Craftsman direct drive and, with it, I can go from saw to glue up. "Stoutman" .@. wrote in message ... Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw at my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this operation. Ok. So what is your point? I think it is either that: A) I am a ****ty craftsman B) I have higher standards for glue-ups. For a panel glue-up it doesn't reallly matter if the boards have a little taper. Glue it up oversize and rip it parallel after. That's the only time I run the second edge over the jointer. -Leuf |
Help with Jointer Setup
Leon wrote:
: "Andrew Barss" wrote in message : ... : : As I said, it's not a very good analogy. : What woud be a better analogy? I'm not sure. What makes the TS special compared to a jointer (or planer, or router with a straight bit) is that the blade extends back several inches from where it cuts, and it doesn't have a reference straightedge without the fence. I guess the best I can think of is ripping on a TS (or a bandsaw) with the fence in place, but with the waste side running along the fence. So, you have aboard with one straight edge (call it A), a rough edge B to be trimmed, and you run B along the fence. The resulting trimmed edge C isn't going to necessarily be parallel to A. Where things get dodgy (or my thinking about 'em does) is when you have A and B already parallel -- trimming it with B running along the fence WILL give you a new edge C which is parallel to A. Jointer is supposed to go the same way (i.e. the "rip on a TS to width plus a hair, trim hair with jointer" approach). But I have a gutt feeling it won't be necessarily parallel to A unless the operator has impeccable technique. -- Andy Barss |
Help with Jointer Setup
CW wrote:
: I'm not Leon but am an experienced plane user. It works much the same way as : a jointer and it, like the jointer will not in any way ensure that the : planed side is parallel to the other side. Yup. The jointer plane actually works slightly differently, in that the sole of the plane before and behind the mouth are coplanar (unlike the beds of a powered jointer, where the infeed table is slightly lower than the outfeed), and the blade protrudes down below both (unlike a jointer, where the blades are even with the outfeed table). This ought to produce diffrent results, I would think, but in practice one can joint a pretty straight edge with a plane. I've never been sure of exactly why! -- Andy Barss |
Help with Jointer Setup
"Andrew Barss" wrote in message ... Leon wrote: : What woud be a better analogy? I'm not sure. What makes the TS special compared to a jointer (or planer, or router with a straight bit) is that the blade extends back several inches from where it cuts, and it doesn't have a reference straightedge without the fence. I guess the best I can think of is ripping on a TS (or a bandsaw) with the fence in place, but with the waste side running along the fence. So, you have aboard with one straight edge (call it A), a rough edge B to be trimmed, and you run B along the fence. The resulting trimmed edge C isn't going to necessarily be parallel to A. Where things get dodgy (or my thinking about 'em does) is when you have A and B already parallel -- trimming it with B running along the fence WILL give you a new edge C which is parallel to A. Jointer is supposed to go the same way (i.e. the "rip on a TS to width plus a hair, trim hair with jointer" approach). But I have a gutt feeling it won't be necessarily parallel to A unless the operator has impeccable technique. OK, I agree, you probably have a better analogy here. At least closer anyway ;~) |
Help with Jointer Setup
"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message ... A) I am a ****ty craftsman If you say so. B) I have higher standards for glue-ups. I doubt it. |
Help with Jointer Setup
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:42:59 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:
Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers. Not on mine. Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and parallel. Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer?? Keep practicing. |
Help with Jointer Setup
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:19:17 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:
All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree. Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I don't check. I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer than why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS fences? I guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. g Stoutman, I don't know why this is irritating me tonight, but it seems like you're overlooking some pretty important things again. Things have to be done correctly, in the correct order, with the proper tools. It's your shop, and I'm glad you're happy with it- but you're going through a lot of extra work and probably frustration by apparently trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears. So here goes, a few tips you're sure to ignore. You've got a jointer, so I'll include that in the process- nothing wrong with the tool, and you already have it. When you get your stock, joint one face... if it needs it. When it is flat, joint one edge, if it needs it, by putting the jointed face against the fence. If it needs it, plane the board to final thickness with the planer. This insures that the two faces are parallel, which the jointer does not do. If you do not own a planer, your next step involves a hand plane and winding sticks, which can be fun to use as well- but going back to the jointer will not help you unless you are doing a lot of stock removal and just need to do some hogging off the thickness before truing the piece by hand. You could also use a router with a pair of "rails" on either side of the stock to adjust the thickness, then sand or handplane the routed face- this will insure parallel faces if done correctly. After planing, rip the stock to width using your table saw, with the jointed edge against the fence. This insures that both edges are parallel, which the jointer does not do. Rip the piece to final thickness- if you re-hit it with the jointer, you risk tapering it, tearout, or leaving mill marks that are very difficult to sand out if you feed too quickly, and will show up in your finish. A good fence on the table saw is parallel to the blade without excessive fiddling, is sturdy enough to prevent deflection when ripping, and has an accurate indicator to allow for repeatable setups. This will result in a glue-ready edge provided that you have a good, clean, sharp blade, and have carefully set up your saw. Then, crosscut the board to finished length. Occasionally, it will make sense to route or rip dadoes down an entire length before crosscutting, or route a profile on an edge, but we're just talking about a simple rectangle here. There you have it. It's a simple, time tested method for preparing stock. All the gadgets and gizmos in the world will not do a better job if you ignore the process. You can get your jointer to micrometric precision, but if the fence on your table saw is out by a sixteenth, it isn't going to matter. Nor will it matter if your table saw is set to within one-tenth of a second of 90* if you are not cutting a final edge with it, or if the ass end of the fence is sliding out of adjustment when you're ripping (which happens fairly frequently with your $15 Delta stock fence, if mine was anything to go by.) Once again, there is no magic bullet. There is no substitute for thought, care and practice. A gadget will help you in some cases, but you are losing something very important in the long run. If you're not willing to discover what that is, there is no way for me to explain it to you. |
Help with Jointer Setup
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:02:49 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:
I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks. The genesis of the question about a tapered rail on the bed slats? Maybe. Not the slats though. The rails that join the slats. I did however come up with a solution. As long as you cross cut both ends of your rail using the same edge as your 90 reference against the fence, AND you use the same reference edge in the slat joinery, taper will not have an effect. That is a solution, but the whole works will be out of square. Let me know if this is not clear. I don't always explain things in the most comprehensive manner. :) |
Help with Jointer Setup
Stoutman,
I don't know why this is irritating me tonight, but it seems like you're overlooking some pretty important things again. Things have to be done correctly, in the correct order, with the proper tools. It's your shop, and I'm glad you're happy with it- but you're going through a lot of extra work and probably frustration by apparently trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears. So here goes, a few tips you're sure to ignore. Thanks for the chuckle professor! |
Help with Jointer Setup
That is a solution, but the whole works will be out of square.
No it's not sir. The non-jointing edge of one rail will taper down. Both ends are square to the slat jointing edge. Let me know if you are still confused. I can make a cad drawing for you. Let me know if this is not clear. I don't always explain things in the most comprehensive manner. :) |
Help with Jointer Setup
Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer?? Keep practicing. Thanks professor. |
Help with Jointer Setup
|
Help with Jointer Setup
thanks Bill. I bought an indicator and base a while back but just haven't
figured out how to take more than one measurement without having to move the thing to another location, thereby changing it's original reference. I'll learn it one of these days. Thanks for the encouragement! "Bill in Detroit" wrote in message ... James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote: "Stoutman" .@. wrote in message ... Are you using a dial indicator to align your outfeed table with the blades? If not, I highly recommend it. The TS-aligner Jr works well for this task. -- Stoutman www.garagewoodworks.com No. I've never been able to figure out how to use a dial indicator for anything. I set it up, then find I need to move it to get another "confirming" measurement so to speak. I know, I'm stupid in that respect. I did finally get the jointer working well. Just took a few minutes setting the outfeed table and blades. Cheers, cc --- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000713-4, 02/14/2007 Tested on: 2/14/2007 6:56:25 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com Cubby ... find a machinist who is willing to show you how. The whole thing takes just moments. The indicator is used for a single series of measurements with the understanding that you will need to do the same 3 second setup each time you start over. I could show you how in 5 minutes and show you WAAAY mor than you will ever need to know in 30. But I doubt if I can write anything up here that will make much sense. Understand that 1) the indicator must be firmly attached to a stable base. 2) this stable base is resting on / sliding over the reference plane (ie; on a jointer, one of the tables) 3) the surface being adjusted will end up parallel to that plane. 4) the adjustements to be made will consist of something called 'successive approximation' ... even if you make the measurements under laboratory conditions, there will always be measureable error left. If you can no longer measure the error, great. But a better test instrument could. 5) the smallest level of error you can reliably count on is 1/2 of 1 division on the dial. That is, a dial indictaor marked in .001" increments can be relied on to within .0005" +- .00025" To put this in perspective: at .003" you cannot see wich of two blocks is the larger. Below .001" it is highly unlikely that you can feel the difference between them. All of which is to say ... don't waste time trying for more accuracy and precision than you need. If you can reliably make cuts to within 1/64" of where you intended them, you are a better man than I am and far better than many who nonetheless do outstanding work. An indicator is an excellent way to set a blade. Mark my words. But it is not the only way to skin that particular cat. Bill -- Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one rascal less in the world. Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881) http://nmwoodworks.com --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000713-4, 02/14/2007 Tested on: 2/14/2007 7:15:06 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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