Hello Group:

I am interested in the art of sign making and was wondering if anyone here
has used the templates and jigs that are available for
routers? Particularly the ease , and accuracy of use and which makes are
recommended.

Best of the New Year

Sal

sal wrote:

Hello Group:

I am interested in the art of sign making and was wondering if
anyone here
has used the templates and jigs that are available for
routers? Particularly the ease , and accuracy of use and which makes are
recommended.

Take a look at a CNC controlled New Hermes.

Lew

What's this talk of templates, jigs and CNC machines? That's not art.

Get a copy of one of Norm's recent (year or so) "field trips" where he
visited the old guy who made the sign for his shop. Fixed based router,
lettering bit, 60 watt light bulb, and tinfoil. That's it.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
sal wrote:

Hello Group:

I am interested in the art of sign making and was wondering if
anyone here
has used the templates and jigs that are available for
routers? Particularly the ease , and accuracy of use and which makes are
recommended.

Take a look at a CNC controlled New Hermes.

Lew

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:39:37 -0600, "sal" wrote:

Hello Group:

I am interested in the art of sign making and was wondering if anyone here
has used the templates and jigs that are available for
routers? Particularly the ease , and accuracy of use and which makes are
recommended.

Sal,

I couldn't tell you how well a "jig" for signmaking works- but I would
note that any given jig you make or buy will require a seperate font
for each style. Fonts cost a lot of money- as do CNC sign makers that
will route out the signs themselves.

What I do, and you can do just as easily, is type out what I want the
sign to say on the computer, select the font I want to use, then print
out the image(s) (it often takes more than one sheet of paper).

Once you've got your paper sign printed out and taped together, you
can lay it over your wood. Tape it down to the wood on one side so it
doesn't slide around on you. Then use a regular sheet of carbon
transfer paper to trace the letters onto the wood. (Just keep moving
it around to get all the letters transfered.)

Then you route out the sign freehand. The beauty of this is that you
don't need to spend any money, you have almost infinite font choices,
and you can choose raised *or* recessed lettering, depending on your
preference.

It might sound like a lot of work, but it really isn't- I can route
out a sign that is pretty complex (think calligraphy or gothic
lettering) in an hour or so, and they always have more visual impact
than something like those oak plaques with a surname routed into a
board with a cove bit that you see more often than not.

In article ,
says...
Sal,

I couldn't tell you how well a "jig" for signmaking works- but I would
note that any given jig you make or buy will require a seperate font
for each style. Fonts cost a lot of money- as do CNC sign makers that
will route out the signs themselves.

What I do, and you can do just as easily, is type out what I want the
sign to say on the computer, select the font I want to use, then print
out the image(s) (it often takes more than one sheet of paper).

Once you've got your paper sign printed out and taped together, you
can lay it over your wood. Tape it down to the wood on one side so it
doesn't slide around on you. Then use a regular sheet of carbon
transfer paper to trace the letters onto the wood. (Just keep moving
it around to get all the letters transfered.)

Then you route out the sign freehand. The beauty of this is that you
don't need to spend any money, you have almost infinite font choices,
and you can choose raised *or* recessed lettering, depending on your
preference.

It might sound like a lot of work, but it really isn't- I can route
out a sign that is pretty complex (think calligraphy or gothic
lettering) in an hour or so, and they always have more visual impact
than something like those oak plaques with a surname routed into a
board with a cove bit that you see more often than not.

That is pretty much the exact method Norm used on his sign-making
episode. How easy was it to pick up the skill before you could get good
results? The prospect of producing a good result in two dimensions with
freehand routing seems daunting.

I don't have a proper sign-making bit for my router, so I haven't tried
to make a sign yet. But I do have it on my to-do list.

wrote:

| What's this talk of templates, jigs and CNC machines? That's not
| art.

Only insofar as communication is an art - and if the objection is to
the application of technology to further that art, then it's probably
worth pointing out that fingerpainting is probably overrated.

Photos of the making of a (double-sided) sign using a CNC router are
at the link below...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/PT_Sign.html

On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:13:40 -0500, Mark Blum
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Sal,

I couldn't tell you how well a "jig" for signmaking works- but I would
note that any given jig you make or buy will require a seperate font
for each style. Fonts cost a lot of money- as do CNC sign makers that
will route out the signs themselves.

What I do, and you can do just as easily, is type out what I want the
sign to say on the computer, select the font I want to use, then print
out the image(s) (it often takes more than one sheet of paper).

Once you've got your paper sign printed out and taped together, you
can lay it over your wood. Tape it down to the wood on one side so it
doesn't slide around on you. Then use a regular sheet of carbon
transfer paper to trace the letters onto the wood. (Just keep moving
it around to get all the letters transfered.)

Then you route out the sign freehand. The beauty of this is that you
don't need to spend any money, you have almost infinite font choices,
and you can choose raised *or* recessed lettering, depending on your
preference.

It might sound like a lot of work, but it really isn't- I can route
out a sign that is pretty complex (think calligraphy or gothic
lettering) in an hour or so, and they always have more visual impact
than something like those oak plaques with a surname routed into a
board with a cove bit that you see more often than not.

That is pretty much the exact method Norm used on his sign-making
episode. How easy was it to pick up the skill before you could get good
results? The prospect of producing a good result in two dimensions with
freehand routing seems daunting.

I got nice results the first (and every) time- it's just a matter of
care and patience. I kind of rough it in first, and then make small
finishing cuts to work down to the lines I've got drawn on. The only
places where it becomes a little more difficult are when you are using
raised letters that are fairly thin, where it becomes very easy to
blow half the letter off because there is so little wood there, and
when you need to have sharp interior corners. All of the signs I've
done have been in redwood for the weather resistance, so I've found
that a sharp, thin chisel and a utility knife generally will do a
decent job of cleaning up inside corners. Smaller bits will give you
better control, and limit the clean-up work to a bare minimum. If
you're impatient (and that's a bad thing, at least with this project)
you *could* use a larger bit for the initial roughing in, and a
smaller one for the detail work, but it doesn't save you that much
time, and can cause some ugly divots if you don't get the bits set to
exactly the same height.

It's also nice, but not absolutely necessary, to have a D-handle base
on the router- there's a little more control there, as well as a
little less arm fatigue.

When you're starting, test the wood a little by routing a circle in a
dead area that is to be routed away, and make several passes around
that circle to remove a little material each time. That will give you
an idea of the best direction to cut, as well as how far you can push
it when it comes to making thin, small letters before the router will
blow the material right off the sign. As far as recessed letters go,
there shouldn't be much of an issue at all- the material around the
letters should be more than robust enough to keep from tearing out.

In case you haven't considered it, raised letters will require a
border around the outside of the sign, to give the router something to
ride on so it stays level. I figure that in as part of the design,
but the lip can always be routed away once the rest is complete, or
sacrifical blocks can be set around the outside of the sign if you
don't want a border.

I don't have a proper sign-making bit for my router, so I haven't tried
to make a sign yet. But I do have it on my to-do list.

I'm not sure exactly what a proper sign-making bit for a router is,
but I use a 1/4" double fluted bit. With a bit that small, I've found
it's fine to plunge it in as far as 3/8" and route the whole thing in
one shot. Different materials will have different requirements, of
course.

As far as I'm concerned, I've found no reason to use any other bit for
the task, though I could see using a core-box bit for recessed
lettering- still not my cup of tea, but thousands of routed signs
hanging on peoples' houses are a good indicator that plenty of people
like that look just fine.

Prometheus wrote:

All of the signs I've done have been in redwood for the weather resistance


Cedar is more common in most places, cheaper too. It holds
up quite well but isn't as purdy. A moot point if you are painting.
It is also quite soft so it's easy to chisel. The density can vary
between boards if you are stack gluing so testing is a good
thing to do. I'm in the biz so we usually sandblast but have
made masonite templates for "freehand" accuracy.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I'm not sure exactly what a proper sign-making bit for a router is,
but I use a 1/4" double fluted bit. With a bit that small, I've found
it's fine to plunge it in as far as 3/8" and route the whole thing in
one shot. Different materials will have different requirements, of
course.

As far as I'm concerned, I've found no reason to use any other bit for
the task, though I could see using a core-box bit for recessed
lettering- still not my cup of tea, but thousands of routed signs
hanging on peoples' houses are a good indicator that plenty of people
like that look just fine.


When I speak of a router bit for making signs, I am speaking of a steep-
angle V-groove bit such as this one:

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3676

I don't know if you use a V-groove bit or not, as you don't say in your
description. But I don't really like the effect from a straight bit or
a core box bit.

The method shown by the sign-maker on Norm's sign episode uses a pointed
bit and doesn't really plunge the bit into the work, but eases it in at
an angle to provide a graduated groove at the points of the letters.
I'm not sure if that is the method you use, but getting that graduated
groove correct and a steady line and arc to the letters freehand seems
like it would take a very steady hand and a good bit of practice.

On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:44:54 -0800, Fletis Humplebacker
wrote:

Prometheus wrote:

All of the signs I've done have been in redwood for the weather resistance


Cedar is more common in most places, cheaper too. It holds
up quite well but isn't as purdy. A moot point if you are painting.
It is also quite soft so it's easy to chisel. The density can vary
between boards if you are stack gluing so testing is a good
thing to do. I'm in the biz so we usually sandblast but have
made masonite templates for "freehand" accuracy.

You are 100% right- but the reason I use redwood is because don't make
many signs (maybe 5 or 6 in the last year) and I salvaged a pretty
good amount of it that had been used for facia board and was headed
for the dumpster on a job a while back. Makes nice looking signs,
especially with the slight discoloration here and there from where the
paint failed. Somebody was thinking of me when they nailed it on,
too- there are two trim nail holes every 4 feet or so, and that's the
extent of the damage to the wood.

It'll be a sad day when the last of it is gone... the stuff is far too
expensive in my area to purchase any more new.

On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:15:16 -0500, Mark Blum
wrote:

When I speak of a router bit for making signs, I am speaking of a steep-
angle V-groove bit such as this one:

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3676

I don't know if you use a V-groove bit or not, as you don't say in your
description. But I don't really like the effect from a straight bit or
a core box bit.

Nope- never even occured to me that there might be such a thing, truth
be told. But it seems like it might be good for some jobs, and
particularly nice for what you're describing below. Probably still
not for me, with the style of work I do- but something to keep an eye
out for the next time I'm browsing the router bit section anyhow.

The method shown by the sign-maker on Norm's sign episode uses a pointed
bit and doesn't really plunge the bit into the work, but eases it in at
an angle to provide a graduated groove at the points of the letters.
I'm not sure if that is the method you use, but getting that graduated
groove correct and a steady line and arc to the letters freehand seems
like it would take a very steady hand and a good bit of practice.

Well, I couldn't say what a correct graduated groove even looks like,
so I'll skip that. Basically, I just use a 1/4" chisel to define the
corner, and a utility knife to carefully pare it away (mainly because
the blade is thin, and will fit into acute corners better than the
chisel). If I were making a living at it, there are probably many
easier ways to do it- but it works for me, and it's not as tough as it
may sound if you've done any other chisel work, like excavating
mortises or inlay cavities. Deeper backgrounds are tougher, but have
a more dramatic shadow line, so it sort of covers up any small nicks
you might put in while doing the hand work.

As noted in a previous post, it's not really that hard to follow the
lines, provided you sneak up on them a little at a time, and don't
just go for broke in one pass. It's possible you're underestimating
yourself when it comes to doing it- the best advice is to give it a
try on some scrap, and if it doesn't work out, you'll have learned
something about what you need to do differently. You may be surprised
at how easy it actually is.

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