I know a lot has been written in this group about CAD
programs for woodworking and I don't really want to
start an argument or stir up that pot.

In issue 172 of Fine Woodworking, Gregory Paolini
called DesignCAD 3D MAX V14 the pick of the litter of
the 3-D CAD programs he reviewed.

Autosketch 8 (Poor)
DesignCAD 3D MAX V14 (Excellent)
TurboCAD Deluxe V9.2) (Good)

It has been two years since Paolini's article. An
eternity in software releases. DesignCAD is now up to
V17 and has broken out the training CDs and priced them
separately. Paolini claimed that training and design
time of his test was at least twice as fast as TurboCAD
and three times faster than Autosketch.

I'm long-winded here I know, but finally, here is my
question(s). Any users of V17 out there with any
opinions or thoughts, positive or negative? I would
appreciate if they would post them here.

Thanks for your help,

John Flatley
Jacksonville, Florida

--
One consolation about memory loss in old age is that
you also forget a lot of things you didn't intend to
remember in the first place.

"John Flatley" wrote in message

Autosketch 8 (Poor)
DesignCAD 3D MAX V14 (Excellent)
TurboCAD Deluxe V9.2) (Good)

I own/owned all three, and would reverse the first two in their current,
2006, versions.

Currently using AS9 to good advantage, and routinely open up/manipulate my
architect's .dwg files from AutoCad with ease.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

John have you used a CAD program?
If no, consider that 3D can be very complicated when compared to 2D. Many
2D programs will let you draw Isometric drawings and that is what I use. I
have had formal drafting training with the pencil, t-squares and triangles
and have been using CAD programs since 1986. 3D is cool but you have to be
very familiar with a CAD program to turn out meaningful drawings in 3D.
If you are not familiar with CAD programs the magazine ratings may never
mean anything to you.
Finally, most all decent CAD programs are available in trial versions. Toy
with those before making a decision.







"John Flatley" wrote in message
...
I know a lot has been written in this group about CAD
programs for woodworking and I don't really want to
start an argument or stir up that pot.

In issue 172 of Fine Woodworking, Gregory Paolini
called DesignCAD 3D MAX V14 the pick of the litter of
the 3-D CAD programs he reviewed.

Autosketch 8 (Poor)
DesignCAD 3D MAX V14 (Excellent)
TurboCAD Deluxe V9.2) (Good)

It has been two years since Paolini's article. An
eternity in software releases. DesignCAD is now up to
V17 and has broken out the training CDs and priced them
separately. Paolini claimed that training and design
time of his test was at least twice as fast as TurboCAD
and three times faster than Autosketch.

I'm long-winded here I know, but finally, here is my
question(s). Any users of V17 out there with any
opinions or thoughts, positive or negative? I would
appreciate if they would post them here.

Thanks for your help,

John Flatley
Jacksonville, Florida

--
One consolation about memory loss in old age is that
you also forget a lot of things you didn't intend to
remember in the first place.

Leon,

You make a good point about using 2D versus 3D. The
article author, Paolini, is AutoCAD trained. He makes
the point that if you think you will end up in 3D,
select one of the 3D programs and run in 2D mode until
you feel comfortable to make the change to 3D. This
would avoid learning a new program when or if you
decide to go to 3D.

I have almost no experience using CAD. I have played
with various graphic and photo editors. I found that I
never really used all the function and features of the
programs. I suspect that it will be the same with CAD
programs.

Paolini tested two 2D programs. He rated DeltaCAD over
QuickCAD 8 for ease of learning.

I will follow your advice and get trial copies of the
programs and play with them. Duh! Sometimes, someone
pointing out the obvious is the advice I need.

Thanks, I needed that!

John Flatley
Jacksonville, Florida
--
Some folks are wise and some are otherwise. And some
top post.


"Leon" wrote in message
t...
| John have you used a CAD program?
| If no, consider that 3D can be very complicated when
compared to 2D. Many
| 2D programs will let you draw Isometric drawings and
that is what I use. I
| have had formal drafting training with the pencil,
t-squares and triangles
| and have been using CAD programs since 1986. 3D is
cool but you have to be
| very familiar with a CAD program to turn out
meaningful drawings in 3D.
| If you are not familiar with CAD programs the
magazine ratings may never
| mean anything to you.
| Finally, most all decent CAD programs are available
in trial versions. Toy
| with those before making a decision.
|

"John Flatley" wrote in message

Paolini tested two 2D programs. He rated DeltaCAD over
QuickCAD 8 for ease of learning.

There is no more QuickCAD ... it is now AutoSketch9, but the exact same
program/functionality.

It all depends upon what you get used to, but I personally found
QuickCAD/AutoSketch more intuitive than DeltaCAD.

YMMV.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"John Flatley" wrote in message
...
Leon,

You make a good point about using 2D versus 3D. The
article author, Paolini, is AutoCAD trained. He makes
the point that if you think you will end up in 3D,
select one of the 3D programs and run in 2D mode until
you feel comfortable to make the change to 3D. This
would avoid learning a new program when or if you
decide to go to 3D.

I have almost no experience using CAD. I have played
with various graphic and photo editors. I found that I
never really used all the function and features of the
programs. I suspect that it will be the same with CAD
programs.

Paolini tested two 2D programs. He rated DeltaCAD over
QuickCAD 8 for ease of learning.

I will follow your advice and get trial copies of the
programs and play with them. Duh! Sometimes, someone
pointing out the obvious is the advice I need.

Thanks, I needed that!

Another thing or two to consider John. Like a left tilt or right tilt TS
CAD programs are good according to personal preference. Through the years I
have probably owned 10 different combinations of brands and versions of CAD
programs. I am self taught when it comes to CAD programs although I have
has a couple of years training in the old stile manual drawing. I
originally had IMSI Design CAD, moved to TurboCAD, to several versions of
AutoSketch, which I might add were excellent value programs, and finally in
1997 I switched/upgraded to AutoCAD LT. I am now on my 4th version of
AutoCAD LT and really like the program. AutoCAD LT for Windows, when I up
graded, was like AutoSketch on steroids.
Any way I like AutoCAD LT but AutoCAD LT is pretty pricey even if it is an
up grade. IIRC the program goes these days for about $700.00. And runs
about $300.00 for an upgrade.
IntelliCAD is the next CAD program that I will buy. It can be had for under
$100 and is virtually a clone of AtuoCAD LT. For me there will be no
learning curve when switching.
You can get free trial versions of ItelliCAD also.
One last thing to consider. Isometric drawings are normally all that you
will ever need when drawing. True perspective 3D drawing lets you look at
an object from most any angle and makes the drawing appear as it would in
real life. Isometric drawings show front, top, and a side view much like 3D
but all the lines come out to actual lengths and do not change with viewing
angle. Isometric drawings are as easy to understand as 3D and IMHO much
easier to draw. No new skills are really needed to go from 2D to isometric.

I'm going to download DeltaCAD trial version tomorrow
and play with it for a while. See if it fits. If not,
I'll take a look at IntelliCAD.

Thanks for your opinions and suggestions.

John Flatley
Jacksonville, Florida

--
Any tools or woods purchased or any time or money spent
in the pursuit of woodworking that employs our
evolutionary advantage of opposing thumbs needs no
further justification.


"Leon" wrote in message
m...
|
| "John Flatley" wrote in
message
| ...
| Leon,
|
| You make a good point about using 2D versus 3D.
The
| article author, Paolini, is AutoCAD trained. He
makes
| the point that if you think you will end up in 3D,
| select one of the 3D programs and run in 2D mode
until
| you feel comfortable to make the change to 3D.
This
| would avoid learning a new program when or if you
| decide to go to 3D.
|
| I have almost no experience using CAD. I have
played
| with various graphic and photo editors. I found
that I
| never really used all the function and features of
the
| programs. I suspect that it will be the same with
CAD
| programs.
|
| Paolini tested two 2D programs. He rated DeltaCAD
over
| QuickCAD 8 for ease of learning.
|
| I will follow your advice and get trial copies of
the
| programs and play with them. Duh! Sometimes,
someone
| pointing out the obvious is the advice I need.
|
| Thanks, I needed that!
|
| Another thing or two to consider John. Like a left
tilt or right tilt TS
| CAD programs are good according to personal
preference. Through the years I
| have probably owned 10 different combinations of
brands and versions of CAD
| programs. I am self taught when it comes to CAD
programs although I have
| has a couple of years training in the old stile
manual drawing. I
| originally had IMSI Design CAD, moved to TurboCAD, to
several versions of
| AutoSketch, which I might add were excellent value
programs, and finally in
| 1997 I switched/upgraded to AutoCAD LT. I am now on
my 4th version of
| AutoCAD LT and really like the program. AutoCAD LT
for Windows, when I up
| graded, was like AutoSketch on steroids.
| Any way I like AutoCAD LT but AutoCAD LT is pretty
pricey even if it is an
| up grade. IIRC the program goes these days for about
$700.00. And runs
| about $300.00 for an upgrade.
| IntelliCAD is the next CAD program that I will buy.
It can be had for under
| $100 and is virtually a clone of AtuoCAD LT. For me
there will be no
| learning curve when switching.
| You can get free trial versions of ItelliCAD also.
| One last thing to consider. Isometric drawings are
normally all that you
| will ever need when drawing. True perspective 3D
drawing lets you look at
| an object from most any angle and makes the drawing
appear as it would in
| real life. Isometric drawings show front, top, and a
side view much like 3D
| but all the lines come out to actual lengths and do
not change with viewing
| angle. Isometric drawings are as easy to understand
as 3D and IMHO much
| easier to draw. No new skills are really needed to
go from 2D to isometric.
|
|
|
|
|
|

This is a very common misconception about 3D cad. It is often thought that
the purpose of 3D is to generate a picture. Such is not the case.The true
benefit of 3D is that each piece can be drawn, complete with all joinery, at
full scale and the entire project built on the computer. Any "gotch's" will
show up before any wood is cut. 2D drawings are generated directly from the
3D model. No need to draw them twice, the 2D drawings are semi or fully
automatic. This does, as you have pointed out, come at a great deal of time
and effort in learning how to do this. For the typical woodworker, the time
and effort to get to that level with the chosen software is probably not
worth it but there are serious advantages for those that do it.

"Leon" wrote in message
m...

Isometric drawings are normally all that you
will ever need when drawing. True perspective 3D drawing lets you look at
an object from most any angle and makes the drawing appear as it would in
real life. Isometric drawings show front, top, and a side view much like
3D
but all the lines come out to actual lengths and do not change with
viewing
angle. Isometric drawings are as easy to understand as 3D and IMHO much
easier to draw. No new skills are really needed to go from 2D to
isometric.

It costs slightly more, but I would also try Visio. You can get a free
trial of Visio 2003 off of Microsoft's site. I find it much easier
than the true CAD packages.

Mark

John Flatley wrote:
Any users of V17 out there with any
opinions or thoughts, positive or negative?

Not here I'm afraid, but while I don't know your goals for the program,
might I also suggest Google's Sketchup:

http://www.sketchup.com

It used to be licensed (and quite pricey), but Google, in its typical
way, threw a free version on the market. Very intuitive to boot.

Suits my beginning woodworker needs, especially since I don't need too
powerfull software.
--
Best regards,
Vriendelijke groeten,
Meilleures salutations,

Flint

Greetings and happy holidays to all!

Misc. replies, my two cents:

Penny 1: While Google did release a limited free version of Sketchup
after they purchased the company (www.sketchup.com), the company still
sells a non-free version. The program struck me as being quite spiffy
-- especially it's user interface -- and well worth its cost (assuming
one has a use for it).

Penny 2: If you are keen to purchase a version of DesignCAD -- a tact
that I neither recommend nor gainsay -- you might well wish to
purchase the very version (14) that your magazine recommended so
highly.

DCAD 14 is, AFAIK, fully compatible with all versions of 32 bit
windows, whereas the help system in Ver 15 -- and maybe 16 ??? -- is
not compatible with Win 95, although the rest of the program is
(version 17 also seems to be Win 95 compatible, despite what
www.DesignCAD.com says).

Even if you're not interested in Win 95 compatibility, the help system
is increasingly less helpful in post 14 versions (again, 16 is a
mystery to me). Indeed, in version 17, attempting to get
online/context sensitive help merely causes the program to launch the
PDF version of the user's manual in another window, opened to the
front cover (sort of like having the program scream "RTFM!" every time
you are in doubt).

While a seasoned DCAD user might not suffer greatly from the
diminished help in newer versions of DCAD, I assume that having online
help available to a new user might be, well, helpful. g If you are a
speed reader with a photographic memory, I'm sorry to have wasted your
time. g

Remaining copies of DCAD 14 are generally obscenely cheap, meaning
that you won't be out any great sum of money regardless of whether you
disdain and discard DCAD 14, or if you fall so head-over-heals in love
that you rush out an upgrade to version 17.1 (don't forget to download
the 17.1 patch!).

You can find the user's manual for DCAD 14 he
http://www.turbocad.com/support/turb...umentation.asp
(That they placed DesignCAD Version 14's user manual on TurboCAD's web
site is, alas, just one example of their attention to detail.)

Manuals for other DesignCAD versions can be found he
http://www.imsisoft.com/support/desi...umentation.asp

The manual for DCAD 17 seems to be available only bundled with the
free trial.

Penny 3: (Bonus penny!) Based upon my EXTREMELY limited contact with
Alibre, both the company and it's FREE Design Xpress 3D software
(http://www.alibre.com/xpress/) seem to have much to recommend
themselves. How difficult is it to master? I don't know, you tell me!
g

Good luck!


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek