On 3 Nov 2006 14:42:36 -0800, "Robatoy" wrote:

Fein has a similar marketing strategy as Festool
but a dealer would have to be nuts not to ask full-pop for their tools.
They can get it, so why not? Fein does have Canadian representation. Go
figgur. Maybe Festool is afraid of Fein?
Dunno.

I'm not certain these guys have similar marketing strategies since I
see the price of the Fein Turbo III ranging from $338. to $399.
whereas the price of the Festool Rotex 125 FEQ is $350. at any Festool
dealer.

tommyboy wrote:
OK, I'm somewhat more clear as to the MAP thing.
Now on to the final part.
How is it that a product as popular as the Akeda jig and accessories
are sold exclusively by a single retailer? It may be my naivete but
I'm thinking that if I was a woodworking type retailer I'd really want
to carry that product. How did Woodcraft get to be the 'chosen one'?
Might they have financial interest in Akeda beyond that of a retailer?

That's an easy one. A manufacturer can only sell as much product as
they can make. If a reseller decides to purchase 100% of a
manufacturer's production capacity, then the manufacturer can cite
"availability" as the reason for rejecting purchase orders from other
resellers.

Very often this sort of arrangement is by agreement between the
manufacturer and the reseller. Consider the situation where a
manufacturer wants to work through one exclusive distributor. That
distributor is then responsible for supplying all other resellers. The
distributor obtains exclusive rights to the whole world as their
territory in exchange for agreeing to buy everything that the
manufacturer can make. Perfectly legal. The manufacturer can cite "no
available territories" as the reason for rejecting purchase orders from
other resellers.

Woodcraft might have some financial interest in Akeda and therefore be
able to influence the channel strategy. Or, perhaps Akeda has their
hands full just trying to keep up with demand created by Woodcraft.
Who knows exactly what the situation is.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

J. Clarke wrote:


Price fixing is an anticompetitive practice--it takes two to do that tango.
Festool doesn't compete with Festool--they're free to charge whatever they
want to for their products and to require their dealers to agree to abide by
those prices.

If, for example, Festool, Bosch, Porter Cable, and Dewalt got together and
agreed that they'd all sell, say jigsaws, for the same price then _that_
would be price-fixing because you wouldn't be able to get a competing
product for a lower price.

No, the first price fixing scheme you pointed out is called vertical
price fixing. The second one is called horizontal price fixing. They
are both anticompetitive.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:00:47 -0800, gibraltorox wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


Price fixing is an anticompetitive practice--it takes two to do that tango.
Festool doesn't compete with Festool--they're free to charge whatever they
want to for their products and to require their dealers to agree to abide by
those prices.

If, for example, Festool, Bosch, Porter Cable, and Dewalt got together and
agreed that they'd all sell, say jigsaws, for the same price then _that_
would be price-fixing because you wouldn't be able to get a competing
product for a lower price.

No, the first price fixing scheme you pointed out is called vertical
price fixing. The second one is called horizontal price fixing. They
are both anticompetitive.

And vertical price fixing is lawful in the US. If you don't like it then
take it up with the Supremes. Whining at us about it will do you no good,
we have no power to change the law.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:00:47 -0800, gibraltorox wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


Price fixing is an anticompetitive practice--it takes two to do that tango.
Festool doesn't compete with Festool--they're free to charge whatever they
want to for their products and to require their dealers to agree to abide by
those prices.

If, for example, Festool, Bosch, Porter Cable, and Dewalt got together and
agreed that they'd all sell, say jigsaws, for the same price then _that_
would be price-fixing because you wouldn't be able to get a competing
product for a lower price.

No, the first price fixing scheme you pointed out is called vertical
price fixing. The second one is called horizontal price fixing. They
are both anticompetitive.

And vertical price fixing is lawful in the US. If you don't like it then
take it up with the Supremes. Whining at us about it will do you no good,
we have no power to change the law.

I don't think so. Gibraltorox is right. Manufacturers can "suggest" a
retail price to resellers, they can even incent resellers to use that
price (with advertising co-op funds, discount rates, kickbacks, or
other programs), but they cannot dictate the retail price to the
dealers (i.e. make it a term of sale). It would restrict competition
between dealers. I don't recall ever hearing about any Supreme Court
decision like this, can you cite the case?

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Well into my 16th year of being a manufacturer.

tommyboy wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 16:14:49 -0500, "Locutus"
wrote:


"tommyboy" wrote in message
.. .
So many retailers and online vendors carry Festool products and every
one of them sells for the same price.
Same with Leigh jigs and accessories.
Same with Akeda but in this case there's only one vendor and that
vendor sells the jig at a higher price than 'suggested retail'.
What has happened to competitive pricing on these products?

It's called MAP. Minimum Advertised Pricing. Since I am involved with a
retail company, I am quite familiar with it. We are free to sell below MAP,
but the mfg is free to not sell us any more product.

Thanks for the explanation.
Would I be far off in my thinking it sounds like price fixing?

Sell for more than your competition it's gouging
Sell for less than your compeitition it's dumping
Sell for the same as your compeititon, it's price fixing

What's a businessman to do?

The retailer has a contract with the manufacturer. If they don't like
the terms, they don't have to sell the product. They are all the same
price because it's the minimum, and any retailer knows they won't sell
many units if they're priced higher than their competition for exactly
the same product.

wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:00:47 -0800, gibraltorox wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


Price fixing is an anticompetitive practice--it takes two to do that tango.
Festool doesn't compete with Festool--they're free to charge whatever they
want to for their products and to require their dealers to agree to abide by
those prices.

If, for example, Festool, Bosch, Porter Cable, and Dewalt got together and
agreed that they'd all sell, say jigsaws, for the same price then _that_
would be price-fixing because you wouldn't be able to get a competing
product for a lower price.

No, the first price fixing scheme you pointed out is called vertical
price fixing. The second one is called horizontal price fixing. They
are both anticompetitive.

And vertical price fixing is lawful in the US. If you don't like it then
take it up with the Supremes. Whining at us about it will do you no good,
we have no power to change the law.

I don't think so. Gibraltorox is right. Manufacturers can "suggest" a
retail price to resellers, they can even incent resellers to use that
price (with advertising co-op funds, discount rates, kickbacks, or
other programs), but they cannot dictate the retail price to the
dealers (i.e. make it a term of sale).

They absolutely can and do. Many golf manufacturers work exactly the
same way. If you don't like the practice, don't buy the product.

On 29 Nov 2006 23:00:06 GMT, "J. Clarke" wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:00:47 -0800, gibraltorox wrote:

And vertical price fixing is lawful in the US. If you don't like it then
take it up with the Supremes. Whining at us about it will do you no good,
we have no power to change the law.

Some years ago, manufacturers imposed a policy called "fair trade pricing" (an
ironic term if ever there was one) in which they dictated the price at which
their products could be sold at retail. I'm pretty sure this practice was ruled
illegal; I haven't seen in used in probably 10 years or so. Isn't this the same
thing you're calling vertical price fixing?


To reply by e-mail, use jcarlson631 at yahoo dot com

John

wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:00:47 -0800, gibraltorox wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


Price fixing is an anticompetitive practice--it takes two to do that tango.
Festool doesn't compete with Festool--they're free to charge whatever they
want to for their products and to require their dealers to agree to abide by
those prices.

If, for example, Festool, Bosch, Porter Cable, and Dewalt got together and
agreed that they'd all sell, say jigsaws, for the same price then _that_
would be price-fixing because you wouldn't be able to get a competing
product for a lower price.

No, the first price fixing scheme you pointed out is called vertical
price fixing. The second one is called horizontal price fixing. They
are both anticompetitive.

And vertical price fixing is lawful in the US. If you don't like it then
take it up with the Supremes. Whining at us about it will do you no good,
we have no power to change the law.

I don't think so. Gibraltorox is right. Manufacturers can "suggest" a
retail price to resellers, they can even incent resellers to use that
price (with advertising co-op funds, discount rates, kickbacks, or
other programs), but they cannot dictate the retail price to the
dealers (i.e. make it a term of sale).

They absolutely can and do. Many golf manufacturers work exactly the
same way. If you don't like the practice, don't buy the product.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:47:05 -0500, John wrote:

On 29 Nov 2006 23:00:06 GMT, "J. Clarke" wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:00:47 -0800, gibraltorox wrote:

And vertical price fixing is lawful in the US. If you don't like it
then take it up with the Supremes. Whining at us about it will do you
no good, we have no power to change the law.

Some years ago, manufacturers imposed a policy called "fair trade
pricing" (an ironic term if ever there was one) in which they dictated
the price at which their products could be sold at retail. I'm pretty
sure this practice was ruled illegal; I haven't seen in used in probably
10 years or so. Isn't this the same thing you're calling vertical price
fixing?

Look up "State Oil vs. Khan". Ruled that it was legal for oil companies
to set maximum prices for their products. That was in late 1997.



--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Akeda's website states that they are under new ownership. Dealer list
is under development.

Renata

On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 19:59:23 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

Nova wrote:


Akeda's web site lists their jigs as being available at:

Austin Hardwoods
Highland Hardware
Rockler
Woodsmith
The Woodworking Shows

Try to buy one. G This past summer,I tried all but the shows and
Austin Hardwoods. Woodcraft at least listed it as out of stock. My
luck finding an Akeda actually drove me to the point of posting a
question here on the 'wreck inquiring if the product was still
available. A friendly Woodcraft employee answered my post, but by that
time I had already purchased a Leigh from Highland.

I was really interested in the Akeda, but my the search set off my
"future orphan tool" alert, tipping me into the D4R.

J. Clarke wrote:

Look up "State Oil vs. Khan". Ruled that it was legal for oil companies
to set maximum prices for their products. That was in late 1997.

Setting a maximum price is not the same as setting a fixed price (or a
minimum price). I can see how the court would rule that this does not
restrict competition!

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Larry Bud wrote:
They absolutely can and do. Many golf manufacturers work exactly the
same way. If you don't like the practice, don't buy the product.

I'm guessing that you misunderstand the terms of sale. It is illegal
to tell a retailer that they must agree to a specific resale price.
That is not a valid reason to refuse a purchase order.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

tommyboy wrote:

I'm not certain these guys have similar marketing strategies since I
see the price of the Fein Turbo III ranging from $338. to $399.
whereas the price of the Festool Rotex 125 FEQ is $350. at any Festool
dealer.

Sounds like the "Access Toyota" pricing.

All the Toyota dealers in a geographical area get together and set
no-haggle prices on the cars.

They then refuse to budge on the price, because they know that all the
dealers within a 500 mile radius all have the same prices.

That said, I wanted my Matrix enough to pay the price.

Chris

wrote:

I'm guessing that you misunderstand the terms of sale. It is illegal
to tell a retailer that they must agree to a specific resale price.
That is not a valid reason to refuse a purchase order.

Absolutely.

Back in the 58-61 time frame, executives from several of the
electrical industry manufacturers had some unpaid vacation time at the
graybar hotel courtesy of the US government after being convicted of
price fixing.

As a seller, you can refuse to sell to a specific industry, but if you
offer to sell to one member of that industry, then you must offer to
sell to all members of that industry with the same terms and
conditions applying.


Lew

That's price fixing and is quite illegal. If you worked that right, you
could have gotten that car for free.

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...

Sounds like the "Access Toyota" pricing.

All the Toyota dealers in a geographical area get together and set
no-haggle prices on the cars.

They then refuse to budge on the price, because they know that all the
dealers within a 500 mile radius all have the same prices.

That said, I wanted my Matrix enough to pay the price.

Chris

Lew Hodgett wrote:
As a seller, you can refuse to sell to a specific industry, but if you
offer to sell to one member of that industry, then you must offer to
sell to all members of that industry with the same terms and
conditions applying.

I know that you must offer the same terms and conditions to everyone
you sell to, but I wasn't aware that you could exclude specific
industries. A previous poster complained that they couldn't get
specific items because the manufacturer didn't want to sell into their
industry (military). It seems like it would be pretty difficult to
manage such a thing given the overlap in so many industries. What if I
sold my product to an industrial supplier that sold product to a
particular industry? Would that qualify or could I just tell all
buyers in that industry that they must get it from this supplier?

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

CW wrote:
That's price fixing and is quite illegal. If you worked that right, you
could have gotten that car for free.

The only way that it wouldn't be price fixing is if the dealerships
were all owned by the same company.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Robatoy wrote:
On Nov 3, 5:27 pm, "bf" wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
Also, part of the whole appeal of high end stuff like Festool is
partially a status symbol.. knowing that you have "the best". If
Festool were priced at the Ryobi level, it wouldn't be as cool or sexy
to have one. Just like if a Mercedes cost as much as a Chevy, some
potential buyers wouldn't think the Mercedes was as good (even if the
quality was identical).

In many cases with other brands/products you would be correct. In most
of Festool's comparisons, you'd be dead wrong. I can't speak for the
entire Festool product line, but the pieces I own are simply superb.
I'm not saying that because I own them, I own them because they are
superior. Same thing goes for Fein. A quality tools costs money.
Period.

Mercedes has made some really ****ty cars in their day. DAHIKT

Nice troll, btw.

Dude, it wasn't a troll. I'm not saying Fine or Festool isn't worth the
price. I don't own one, but I'm sure it's good quality. I'm just saying
that part of maintaining brand image is the price. It's not a slam on
the tools. Geez. Note I said "PART OF THE APPEAL" is the brand. I know
someone who brought a Delta unisaw. He hardly ever uses it, but loves
taking people down to his basement to show it off. To him, it's like an
antique car he likes to show off. He gets enjoyment and pride out of
it, and can afford it, so it's no big deal.

wrote in message
ups.com...

CW wrote:
That's price fixing and is quite illegal. If you worked that right, you
could have gotten that car for free.

The only way that it wouldn't be price fixing is if the dealerships
were all owned by the same company.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Quite true but it appears that was not the case here. Sounds more likely
that the guy got screwed on the price of a car and is trying to justify it.

wrote in message
ups.com...

CW wrote:
That's price fixing and is quite illegal. If you worked that right, you
could have gotten that car for free.

The only way that it wouldn't be price fixing is if the dealerships
were all owned by the same company.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com