In order to make use of a narrow drawer I designed a silverware tray
with slanted slots to hold the silverware. It can be seen here (scroll
down to the second one):

http://members.cox.net/jsam/tray.html

Every so often I get inquiries from people asking if I will sell them
one. Well, I'm just a hobbiest and I lack the time and inclination to
do this.

If I could find someone willing to make these commercially (and able to
make them at a reasonable price) I could refer people to that person
when I get these occasional inquiries. In the most recent case,
someone says they want 22 of these trays. Would you be interested in
making these for sale? There are some complications: I sized it
carefully to fit my particular silverware.

I'm willing to release the design to anybody who's interested in making
them.

(in
) said:

| I'm willing to release the design to anybody who's interested in
| making them.

You have mail! :-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

wrote in message
ups.com...
In order to make use of a narrow drawer I designed a silverware tray
with slanted slots to hold the silverware. It can be seen here (scroll
down to the second one):

http://members.cox.net/jsam/tray.html

Every so often I get inquiries from people asking if I will sell them
one. Well, I'm just a hobbiest and I lack the time and inclination to
do this.

If I could find someone willing to make these commercially (and able to
make them at a reasonable price) I could refer people to that person
when I get these occasional inquiries. In the most recent case,
someone says they want 22 of these trays. Would you be interested in
making these for sale? There are some complications: I sized it
carefully to fit my particular silverware.

I'm willing to release the design to anybody who's interested in making
them.


Nice design. If someone wanted to make a bunch of these I think I would
suggest investing a little time in some jigs. Instead of making the sides
out of a solid piece and cutting all of those slots, I would make sections
with rabbeted ends and fix these to the sides of the drawer. By doing it
that way it would save a whole bunch of time.

Another idea would be to notch the top of the dividers so you could add a
trim strip to cover all of the joints. doing that it would be easier to
wipe down as there would be fewer cracks and crevices on the top edge.

--
Roger Shoaf

If knowledge is power, and power corrupts, what does this say about the
Congress?

On 7 Jun 2006 14:28:16 -0700, wrote:

If I could find someone willing to make these commercially (and able to
make them at a reasonable price) I could refer people to that person
when I get these occasional inquiries. In the most recent case,
someone says they want 22 of these trays.

22 of em! That's a lot of silverware. Just how many kids have they
got?

Would you be interested in
making these for sale? There are some complications: I sized it
carefully to fit my particular silverware.

I probably would, but I see Morris has already pounced.

You came a long way from your prototype to the final piece. Always
good to see people sticking with it. Good job!


-Leuf

Leuf (in ) said:

| On 7 Jun 2006 14:28:16 -0700, wrote:
|
|| If I could find someone willing to make these commercially (and
|| able to make them at a reasonable price) I could refer people to
|| that person when I get these occasional inquiries. In the most
|| recent case, someone says they want 22 of these trays.
|
| 22 of em! That's a lot of silverware. Just how many kids have they
| got?
|
|| Would you be interested in
|| making these for sale? There are some complications: I sized it
|| carefully to fit my particular silverware.
|
| I probably would, but I see Morris has already pounced.

Leuf...

I did - because the trays looked like a natural for CNC routing and
because [neener] I just finished building a CNC router with a tilting
Z-axis that seems made to order for those angled dados.

Adrian...

From the pictures I've seen, I feel pretty comfortable saying that
Leuf does good work. If you also heard from Leon - he also does good
work, even if he is from Texas. ;-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:58:15 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

I did - because the trays looked like a natural for CNC routing and
because [neener] I just finished building a CNC router with a tilting
Z-axis that seems made to order for those angled dados.

That's what I figured. If it was a couple of them I could prolly do
it cheaper if only because I'm probably willing to work for less per
hr at this point in my life. But 20 of em, I'll step outta the way


-Leuf

Leuf (in ) said:

| On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:58:15 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| I did - because the trays looked like a natural for CNC routing and
|| because [neener] I just finished building a CNC router with a
|| tilting Z-axis that seems made to order for those angled dados.
|
| That's what I figured. If it was a couple of them I could prolly do
| it cheaper if only because I'm probably willing to work for less per
| hr at this point in my life. But 20 of em, I'll step outta the way
|

I took a quick photo of the tilted spindle when I got to the shop this
morning. My original thinking had been to operate at either 0 or 90
degrees, but this 50-degree diagonal is stimulating a bit more
thought...

I'll post the photo to alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking under this
same subject.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 14:38:17 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Leuf (in ) said:

| On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:58:15 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| I did - because the trays looked like a natural for CNC routing and
|| because [neener] I just finished building a CNC router with a
|| tilting Z-axis that seems made to order for those angled dados.
|
| That's what I figured. If it was a couple of them I could prolly do
| it cheaper if only because I'm probably willing to work for less per
| hr at this point in my life. But 20 of em, I'll step outta the way
|

I took a quick photo of the tilted spindle when I got to the shop this
morning. My original thinking had been to operate at either 0 or 90
degrees, but this 50-degree diagonal is stimulating a bit more
thought...

While it'd be easy enough to do angled dados on the tablesaw, your
setup could make them stop dados which would make for a cleaner look.

Good example if you go into production on your machine, a relatively
simple project made easier and better.


-Leuf

Leuf wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 14:38:17 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Leuf (in ) said:

| On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:58:15 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| I did - because the trays looked like a natural for CNC routing and
|| because [neener] I just finished building a CNC router with a
|| tilting Z-axis that seems made to order for those angled dados.
|
| That's what I figured. If it was a couple of them I could prolly do
| it cheaper if only because I'm probably willing to work for less per
| hr at this point in my life. But 20 of em, I'll step outta the way
|

I took a quick photo of the tilted spindle when I got to the shop this
morning. My original thinking had been to operate at either 0 or 90
degrees, but this 50-degree diagonal is stimulating a bit more
thought...

That setup Morris has looks pretty good for this. What is the maximum
angle you can tilt the router before it hits the workpiece? (I thought
about doing the dados with my router but I think I needed a 4 inch bit
to reach the workpiece when the router was tilted 50 degrees.)

One of the complications of this project is that silverware isn't all
the same. I sized my piece very tightly to my own set of silverware
which has unusually short knives. A set with longer knives would
require an even steeper angle. Since I don't have the larger
silverware I don't know if there are any gotchas in sizing one to fit.



While it'd be easy enough to do angled dados on the tablesaw, your
setup could make them stop dados which would make for a cleaner look.

Would it be easy to do these on the tablesaw? When I was trying to
figure out how to do it I noiced that most table saws only go to 45
degrees. (I don't have a tablesaw.)

My own idea on how I would do it if I were doing it again (without a
fancy CNC router setup): instead of cutting the dados I would build up
the frame from thinner stock. Then instead of cutting dados at 50
degrees I'd only have to cut off ends of the wood at 50 degrees. (That
you could definitely do on the table saw with the wood up on end.)

On 8 Jun 2006 17:00:46 -0700, wrote:


Leuf wrote:

While it'd be easy enough to do angled dados on the tablesaw, your
setup could make them stop dados which would make for a cleaner look.

Would it be easy to do these on the tablesaw? When I was trying to
figure out how to do it I noiced that most table saws only go to 45
degrees. (I don't have a tablesaw.)

There is a stop at 45, but you can get a few more degrees. Whether
you can get to 50 would vary by model.

You could also build a sled that was at 5 degrees, which is what I
would do if I were making more than a couple. Otherwise I'd probably
just do it on the band saw.

My own idea on how I would do it if I were doing it again (without a
fancy CNC router setup): instead of cutting the dados I would build up
the frame from thinner stock. Then instead of cutting dados at 50
degrees I'd only have to cut off ends of the wood at 50 degrees. (That
you could definitely do on the table saw with the wood up on end.)

You could cut the end at 50 with a jig, but how would you make the
second cut to get your cutoff?


-Leuf

(in
) said:

| Leuf wrote:
|| On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 14:38:17 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
|| wrote:
||
||| Leuf (in ) said:
|||
|||| On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:58:15 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
|||| wrote:
||||
||||| I did - because the trays looked like a natural for CNC routing
||||| and because [neener] I just finished building a CNC router with
||||| a tilting Z-axis that seems made to order for those angled
||||| dados.
||||
|||| That's what I figured. If it was a couple of them I could
|||| prolly do it cheaper if only because I'm probably willing to
|||| work for less per hr at this point in my life. But 20 of em,
|||| I'll step outta the way
|||
||| I took a quick photo of the tilted spindle when I got to the shop
||| this morning. My original thinking had been to operate at either
||| 0 or 90 degrees, but this 50-degree diagonal is stimulating a bit
||| more thought...
|
| That setup Morris has looks pretty good for this. What is the
| maximum angle you can tilt the router before it hits the workpiece?
| (I thought about doing the dados with my router but I think I
| needed a 4 inch bit to reach the workpiece when the router was
| tilted 50 degrees.)

I don't know. I'll need to measure the router to figure that out. I'll
admit that a really long router bit would make me fairly nervous
because of the leverage that'd be exerted by cutting forces. I guess
it'd also depend on how deep the dado needs to be.

| One of the complications of this project is that silverware isn't
| all the same. I sized my piece very tightly to my own set of
| silverware which has unusually short knives. A set with longer
| knives would require an even steeper angle. Since I don't have the
| larger silverware I don't know if there are any gotchas in sizing
| one to fit.

For a steeper angle, I think I'd give serious consideration to cutting
angled tenons on the dividers that fit into straight mortises on the
side and end pieces - very much like what Leuf suggested. An
interesting experiment might be to cut angled sliding dovetails...

|| While it'd be easy enough to do angled dados on the tablesaw, your
|| setup could make them stop dados which would make for a cleaner
|| look.

A stop dado would bear a strong resemblance to a mortise, yes? I like
this idea; but think it'd be easier to machine the angled tenon on the
ends of the dividers with straight mortises.

| Would it be easy to do these on the tablesaw? When I was trying to
| figure out how to do it I noiced that most table saws only go to 45
| degrees. (I don't have a tablesaw.)

If you produce work like this without a tablesaw, it's fun to imagine
what you might do /with/ a tablesaw. Suggest you tell Joni I said you
_need_ a tablesaw. :-D

I've never seen a table saw that'd tilt farther than 45 degrees. For
smaller angles you'd probably want to use a radial arm saw.

| My own idea on how I would do it if I were doing it again (without a
| fancy CNC router setup): instead of cutting the dados I would
| build up the frame from thinner stock. Then instead of cutting
| dados at 50 degrees I'd only have to cut off ends of the wood at 50
| degrees. (That you could definitely do on the table saw with the
| wood up on end.)

That'd work - but I suspect that by the time that 22nd one was
finished you'd have seen all the silverware trays you ever wanted to
see. (Joni, Adrian needs a radial arm saw to go along with his
tablesaw!)

Hmm. Now that I think about it a bit, a planer and a drum sander could
also come in handy...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:36:10 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

A stop dado would bear a strong resemblance to a mortise, yes? I like
this idea; but think it'd be easier to machine the angled tenon on the
ends of the dividers with straight mortises.

The dividers are pretty thin, I wouldn't go any thicker than 1/4".
Wouldn't leave you much of anything for an angled tenon would it?


-Leuf

Leuf (in ) said:

| On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:36:10 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| A stop dado would bear a strong resemblance to a mortise, yes? I
|| like this idea; but think it'd be easier to machine the angled
|| tenon on the ends of the dividers with straight mortises.
|
| The dividers are pretty thin, I wouldn't go any thicker than 1/4".
| Wouldn't leave you much of anything for an angled tenon would it?

Hmm. Let's see - using 1/4" stock for the divider, if the angle was 45
degrees I would have about .25" * sqrt(2) = 11/32+" to work with if
the tenon didn't need to be square-ended. So if I allowed 1/32"
(twice) for the shoulders, then the tenon could be 9/32" thick and I
think it'd work ok.

What makes this fun is that the tenon I just calculated is actually
thicker than the stock from which it was made (a drawing will help.)

Aren't geometry and trig wonderful? :-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 22:01:36 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Leuf (in ) said:

| On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:36:10 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| A stop dado would bear a strong resemblance to a mortise, yes? I
|| like this idea; but think it'd be easier to machine the angled
|| tenon on the ends of the dividers with straight mortises.
|
| The dividers are pretty thin, I wouldn't go any thicker than 1/4".
| Wouldn't leave you much of anything for an angled tenon would it?

Hmm. Let's see - using 1/4" stock for the divider, if the angle was 45
degrees I would have about .25" * sqrt(2) = 11/32+" to work with if
the tenon didn't need to be square-ended. So if I allowed 1/32"
(twice) for the shoulders, then the tenon could be 9/32" thick and I
think it'd work ok.

What makes this fun is that the tenon I just calculated is actually
thicker than the stock from which it was made (a drawing will help.)

Aren't geometry and trig wonderful? :-)

Okay I did a drawing and I think the sticking point is your "didn't
need to be square-ended." If it isn't square ended what's the point?
You'd have no contact on that side. I can see you can cheat a little
and have maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the tenon be angled, but you aren't
getting 9/32".

By my not very accurate line drawing if I insisted on fully square
ended for a 1/8" deep mortise I had a width around .2" or 13/64". And
the grain is running diagonally so it's not nearly as strong as a
normal tenon of the same size. At 1/4" deep I was down to about 3/32"

Would it really be easier to do it this way with your setup? I am
trying to picture how you'd do the angled tenons. Hold the workpiece
on edge? Or on its face and flip it to do the other side?

Leave it to us to overcomplicate something someone did with a hand
saw...


-Leuf

Morris Dovey wrote:
(in
) said:

[schnipfered for brevity]

Hmm. Now that I think about it a bit, a planer and a drum sander could
also come in handy...


*G*
You have a lot of nice suggestions, Morris. A little time... a little
money...NO prob.

Your machine is starting to become desirable.
How hard would it be for it to be able to handle 24" wide panels? (I'm
thinking 32 mm system for cabinet fabrication and shelf holes and stuff
like that?)

(back in full production after all that transpired here...sis doing
so-so.)

r

Leuf (in ) said:

| On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 22:01:36 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| Leuf (in ) said:
||
||| On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:36:10 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
||| wrote:
|||
|||| A stop dado would bear a strong resemblance to a mortise, yes? I
|||| like this idea; but think it'd be easier to machine the angled
|||| tenon on the ends of the dividers with straight mortises.
|||
||| The dividers are pretty thin, I wouldn't go any thicker than 1/4".
||| Wouldn't leave you much of anything for an angled tenon would it?
||
|| Hmm. Let's see - using 1/4" stock for the divider, if the angle
|| was 45 degrees I would have about .25" * sqrt(2) = 11/32+" to
|| work with if the tenon didn't need to be square-ended. So if I
|| allowed 1/32" (twice) for the shoulders, then the tenon could be
|| 9/32" thick and I think it'd work ok.
||
|| What makes this fun is that the tenon I just calculated is actually
|| thicker than the stock from which it was made (a drawing will
|| help.)
||
|| Aren't geometry and trig wonderful? :-)
|
| Okay I did a drawing and I think the sticking point is your "didn't
| need to be square-ended." If it isn't square ended what's the
| point? You'd have no contact on that side. I can see you can cheat
| a little and have maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the tenon be angled, but you
| aren't getting 9/32".

If I cut as I described, I'd only have 1/32" bearing on the side with
the 45 deg angle, roughly 1/2 of what a square-ended tenon would
provide at the top and bottom, and 9/32" on the side with the 135 deg
angle. The long shoulders only provide 1/32" to resist compression
(that's probably enough, tho) but the top and bottom (above and below
the tenon) could be in the 1/4 - 1/2" range which would surely be
enough.

The short side of the tenon doesn't need to do much. If the divider is
pushed against the short side, the shoulders (especially above and
below) will act to prevent movement; and if the divider is pushed
against the long side of the tenon, well - that's where the tenon is
strongest. I think it'll work. What /I/ don't like is the empty
airspace in the mortise.

| By my not very accurate line drawing if I insisted on fully square
| ended for a 1/8" deep mortise I had a width around .2" or 13/64".
| And the grain is running diagonally so it's not nearly as strong as
| a normal tenon of the same size. At 1/4" deep I was down to about
| 3/32"
|
| Would it really be easier to do it this way with your setup? I am
| trying to picture how you'd do the angled tenons. Hold the
| workpiece on edge? Or on its face and flip it to do the other side?

Easiest way would be to set up a fixture to hold the board on edge at
the angle at which it'll fit in the tray, tilt the router to
horizontal, and write a program to run the router around the tenon (a
"race-track" toolpath). If I allow 1/4" shoulder at top and bottom and
use a 1/4" square-ended bit, it can all be done in a single pass in
the y-z plane.

For the mortises, I'd clamp the side/end pieces flat and parallel to
the x-axis and cut the matching mortises with the spindle vertically
oriented. The corner joints will be fairly straight-forward with the
spindle in horizontal orientation.

| Leave it to us to overcomplicate something someone did with a hand |
saw...

I'm not sure about "overcomplicate". Adrian just wanted one of these
things for his own home, and he was willing to put a lot of hours into
a single tray to get it just right using neandertools. I'm looking to
produce a version that is equally attractive and functional but in
larger quantities and with minimal man- and machine-minutes per unit.
IOW, profitably.

I share your misgivings about the diagonal grain in the tenon; and
plan to abuse the first unit with a rubber mallet as soon as the glue
has cured to see if it's really a problem. If it'll survive a
reasonable pummeling, then I give it the concrete floor test from 6'
up; and if it survives /that/, I'll hang it on the wall and make more.

I suspect that application of glue and fitting all those joints
together at the same time is going to be /really/ interesting. :-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Robatoy (in )
said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| (in
|| ) said:
||
|| [schnipfered for brevity]
||
|| Hmm. Now that I think about it a bit, a planer and a drum sander
|| could also come in handy...
|
| *G*
| You have a lot of nice suggestions, Morris. A little time... a
| little money...NO prob.

:-)

| Your machine is starting to become desirable.
| How hard would it be for it to be able to handle 24" wide panels?
| (I'm thinking 32 mm system for cabinet fabrication and shelf holes
| and stuff like that?)

Since this little machine only has a 16x24" table, it'd be _really_
hard. With a larger machine, the euro-cabinets are disgustingly easy.
With the CNC approach you can even "drill" all of the holes (hinge
receses, system holes, and construction holes) and cut the panels out
of a 4x8 sheet with a single bit. Probably make you fat and lazy...

Put this on your list of topics to discuss when you visit. Somewhere
on this PC I even have ShopBot programs to do standard 32mm systems
and all you need to specify is height, width, and depth (derived from
info found in the free LV System-32 pamphlet.) It was one of my first
part programming projects; and I've never used any of it except the
hole-drilling code.)

| (back in full production after all that transpired here...sis doing
so-so.)

Full production is good. Sis doing only so-so is less good.

Just out of curiosity, is her injury such that she'd benefit
significantly from technology/treatment derived from stem-cell
research?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

I share your misgivings about the diagonal grain in the tenon; and
plan to abuse the first unit with a rubber mallet as soon as the glue
has cured to see if it's really a problem. If it'll survive a
reasonable pummeling, then I give it the concrete floor test from 6'
up; and if it survives /that/, I'll hang it on the wall and make more.


I don't think the construction needs to be particularly strong to stand
up to silverware. An alternative would be to route grooves in the
base and do a tongue in groove for the dividers, with butt joints at
the sides. I'll bet that would suffice. (I don't like it but it would
probably suffice.)

What's wrong with the empty space in the mortise if you use the tenon?


I suspect that application of glue and fitting all those joints
together at the same time is going to be /really/ interesting. :-)

I had a lot of trouble cleaning up the glue, especially in the 40
degree corners. (I used epoxy because I needed something gap filling
which I think made the cleanup more trouble than it might have been.)

Morris Dovey wrote:

| That setup Morris has looks pretty good for this. What is the
| maximum angle you can tilt the router before it hits the workpiece?
| (I thought about doing the dados with my router but I think I
| needed a 4 inch bit to reach the workpiece when the router was
| tilted 50 degrees.)

I don't know. I'll need to measure the router to figure that out. I'll
admit that a really long router bit would make me fairly nervous
because of the leverage that'd be exerted by cutting forces. I guess
it'd also depend on how deep the dado needs to be.

I was too nervous to look for a four inch router bit. (I've never seen
such a beast, probably for good reason.)

| Would it be easy to do these on the tablesaw? When I was trying to
| figure out how to do it I noiced that most table saws only go to 45
| degrees. (I don't have a tablesaw.)

If you produce work like this without a tablesaw, it's fun to imagine
what you might do /with/ a tablesaw. Suggest you tell Joni I said you
_need_ a tablesaw. :-D

I haven't generally felt like not having a table saw was that limiting
in terms of what I can accomplish, though I suppose it makes some
things take longer.


I've never seen a table saw that'd tilt farther than 45 degrees. For
smaller angles you'd probably want to use a radial arm saw.

| My own idea on how I would do it if I were doing it again (without a
| fancy CNC router setup): instead of cutting the dados I would
| build up the frame from thinner stock. Then instead of cutting
| dados at 50 degrees I'd only have to cut off ends of the wood at 50
| degrees. (That you could definitely do on the table saw with the
| wood up on end.)

That'd work - but I suspect that by the time that 22nd one was
finished you'd have seen all the silverware trays you ever wanted to
see. (Joni, Adrian needs a radial arm saw to go along with his
tablesaw!)

Oh, yeah. No way do I want to make 22 of these things!

Hmm. Now that I think about it a bit, a planer and a drum sander could
also come in handy...

I actually have a planer. Last time I needed to thickness some
material, however, it was curly maple and I found I had a lot of
trouble with tear out on my test piece. So I ended up thicknessing
with hand planes. I suppose then you'll say I just need a thickness
sander....

(in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| I just finished building a CNC router with a
|||| tilting Z-axis....
|| I took a quick photo of the tilted spindle when I got to the shop
|| this morning.
|
| Morris-
|
| what is the router motor on that machine?

It's a super-inexpensive (~$20) 1/4" trim router from HF. The trim
routers and speed controls went on sale just as I was starting the
project, so I picked up a pair of each for testing (I figured that I'd
burn 'em up post-haste; but haven't succeeded in killing the first
yet.)

On a related note, the 1/4" to 1/8" adaptors that I ordered from
Router Bit World back on April 17th finally showed up this past week.
The price was good; but the delivery time left a lot to be desired. I
ordered a PC part and received Amana, so they may have had a supplier
problem; but I wish they hadn't left me hanging...

At least now I can chuck up the 1/8"-shanked bits for some of the more
intricate cutting. The picture I posted to ABPW shows a (long) 1/4"
bit - but 1/8" (and smaller) bits will produce _much_ better results.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/JBot.html