Greetings,

I just whipped up a triangle loom for SWMBO. I wound up using finishing
nails, because chucking and shaping box nails was taking too long. (Had to
finish by yesterday.) The wood was 4S 1x3 maple from the borg, ripped and
trued to 2" x however thick they turned out after hand planing.

For those who don't recognize this sort of loom, like me a week ago, they
comprise an isosceles right triangle with a hundred-odd nails along each
of the wide faces. The hypotenuse nails are, of course, 1.41 times as far
apart as the side nails.

Driving a row of nails along the grain is going to split the wood. So, I
pre-drilled. Too lazy to look up the exact diameter of the #3 finishing
nails, I just cut of the head off of one and chucked it in the DP. (Had
lots of practice chucking nails recently, you see.) Thus I had holes that
should be exactly the same diameter as the nails. Hole depth was a couple
of millimeters shy of the final nail penetration depth, and 4 or 5 mm shy
of the far edge.

My nail wore out after the first 104 holes. I drilled the two sides with
a 1/16" drill. Much faster... Those holes seemed a shade tight.

Drove the nails while holding a stop block against them. The hammer head
hit the block, ensuring consistent height. So far so good.

The long edge split. That was the one drilled with a nail. So if the
holes were the same size as the nails, and the nails were spaced farther
apart than those on the other two sides, which did not split, how the heck
can I prevent splitting on the Mark II model? Hole deeper than the nail?

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
wreck20051219 at spambob.net

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 18:06:07 GMT, Australopithecus scobis
wrote:

Hole depth was a couple
of millimeters shy of the final nail penetration depth, and 4 or 5 mm shy
of the far edge.

Better a longer hole if the nails are *snug*. Then tension from the
wool is sideways to the nail, and no change of moving them [except
time deals with all things]. use slightly longer nails for added
strength. Overall you are not wedging with a poitned nail, just
driving into a snug-fit hole. The end could actually be blunt. also,
it is a functional unit, so holes *could* be drilled through to
alleviate tension. Nails could even go all the way through , then
file and sand giving a pattern effect.

Also, consider staggering nails slightly they have to be in that
*direction* but not precisely in a line. Distance apart along that
line is still important. Compare with harp strings.

how the heck can I prevent splitting on the Mark II model?

Sounds to me like you did a good job of preventing splitting, and it
split anyway. Hm. My thought for the next version would be to try
using a good-quality birch plywood, like the kind they probably don't
have at the borg. Then it seems it couldn't split, but if you get good
hardwood plywood, it should still be dense and solid enough to be
durable. Of course if looks are important, the asthetics are a matter
of opinion, but I think the birch grain can be pretty on the face, and
from the edge, the many fine layers of mostly void-free wood look a lot
nicer than your average cheap plywood. I got some good baltic birch
ply on ebay, but of course selection there would vary. Rockler has
12x30" pieces of 3/4" for $8, but I haven't used that particular kind
before.
Good luck,
Andy

"The long edge split. That was the one drilled with a nail."

Sounds as if you have the answer, no? Drill holes and add a drop of epoxy?

"Australopithecus scobis" wrote in message
news
Greetings,

I just whipped up a triangle loom for SWMBO. I wound up using finishing
nails, because chucking and shaping box nails was taking too long. (Had to
finish by yesterday.) The wood was 4S 1x3 maple from the borg, ripped and
trued to 2" x however thick they turned out after hand planing.

For those who don't recognize this sort of loom, like me a week ago, they
comprise an isosceles right triangle with a hundred-odd nails along each
of the wide faces. The hypotenuse nails are, of course, 1.41 times as far
apart as the side nails.

Driving a row of nails along the grain is going to split the wood. So, I
pre-drilled. Too lazy to look up the exact diameter of the #3 finishing
nails, I just cut of the head off of one and chucked it in the DP. (Had
lots of practice chucking nails recently, you see.) Thus I had holes that
should be exactly the same diameter as the nails. Hole depth was a couple
of millimeters shy of the final nail penetration depth, and 4 or 5 mm shy
of the far edge.

My nail wore out after the first 104 holes. I drilled the two sides with
a 1/16" drill. Much faster... Those holes seemed a shade tight.

Drove the nails while holding a stop block against them. The hammer head
hit the block, ensuring consistent height. So far so good.

The long edge split. That was the one drilled with a nail. So if the
holes were the same size as the nails, and the nails were spaced farther
apart than those on the other two sides, which did not split, how the heck
can I prevent splitting on the Mark II model? Hole deeper than the nail?

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
wreck20051219 at spambob.net

IMHO when you 'drilled' with the nail all you did was drive a nail into the
wood twice, once with the DP and once with the hammer. Each nail spread the
grain in the timber until it reached the breaking (splitting) point. When a
drill bit drives into wood it removes some of the wood, so you should have a
hole in the timber with no pressure in any direction. Then when you drive
the nail down it will exert enough pressure sideways to retain the nail but
not enough to split the wood.

To avoid splitting you should pre drill, not pre nail.

Mekon

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 18:06:07 GMT, Australopithecus scobis
wrote:

Driving a row of nails along the grain is going to split the wood. So, I
pre-drilled. Too lazy to look up the exact diameter of the #3 finishing
nails, I just cut of the head off of one and chucked it in the DP. (Had
lots of practice chucking nails recently, you see.) Thus I had holes that
should be exactly the same diameter as the nails. Hole depth was a couple
of millimeters shy of the final nail penetration depth, and 4 or 5 mm shy
of the far edge.

Find some metal to inlay, 1/8" or so, then predrill as close as
possible without going over. Nice small brass strip would be perfect.

--------------------
Steve Jensen
Abbotsford B.C.
chopping out the mortise.
BBS'ing since 1982 at 300 bps.
Surfing along at 19200 bps since 95.
WW'ing since 1985
LV Cust #4114

Nothing catchy to say, well maybe.....
WAKE UP - There are no GODs you fools!

Mekon (in ) said:

| IMHO when you 'drilled' with the nail all you did was drive a nail
| into the wood twice, once with the DP and once with the hammer.

This is also my guess. The drilling operation needs to remove some
part of the stock to make room for the nail shank - it's not enough to
just tear the wood fibers where you plan to drive the nail.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Morris Dovey wrote:
Mekon (in ) said:

| IMHO when you 'drilled' with the nail all you did was drive a nail
| into the wood twice, once with the DP and once with the hammer.

This is also my guess. The drilling operation needs to remove some
part of the stock to make room for the nail shank - it's not enough to
just tear the wood fibers where you plan to drive the nail.

While drilling would seem to be the absolute "cure," how come simply
dulling the tip of a finishing nail by striking it against a piece of
concrete, etc. seem to prevent splitting in a great many cases?

I know it sounds quite counter-intuitive but the explanation given for
the the success of this technique is that the dull tip of the nail
doesn't cut the fiber of the wood as much as it pushes it aside.

Don't have the answer myself but it's something worth pondering.

Unquestionably Confused (in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| Mekon (in ) said:
||
||| IMHO when you 'drilled' with the nail all you did was drive a nail
||| into the wood twice, once with the DP and once with the hammer.
||
|| This is also my guess. The drilling operation needs to remove some
|| part of the stock to make room for the nail shank - it's not
|| enough to just tear the wood fibers where you plan to drive the
|| nail.
|
| While drilling would seem to be the absolute "cure," how come simply
| dulling the tip of a finishing nail by striking it against a piece
| of concrete, etc. seem to prevent splitting in a great many cases?

My really nerdy guess would be that a blunt end tears/cuts/breaks the
wood fibers - possibly compressing at least some of them into the
bottom of the "hole". If the wood is dry and the fibers are long,
dense, and parallel then it may be more inclined to propagate what
under other conditions might be just tiny splits local to each nail.
I'd guess that this kind of problem would be rare in hardwoods like
elm and common with hardwoods like white oak.

| I know it sounds quite counter-intuitive but the explanation given
| for the the success of this technique is that the dull tip of the
| nail doesn't cut the fiber of the wood as much as it pushes it
| aside.

Hmm - I'd think that a pointed nail would do an even better job of
pushing the fibers aside if that was what worked.

| Don't have the answer myself but it's something worth pondering.

Agreed. It'd also be interesting to hear from construction folks
whether it makes a difference how 16d nails are oriented for driving
[ and I'm already assuming "point toward the wood" :-) ].

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

"Hmm - I'd think that a pointed nail would do an even better job "

Yet, years of experience tell those who were taught the "dull the
tip" technique in their youth that, it works. Do screw with success."

But the approach is an "in the field" substitute/work around for
pre-drilling to prevent splitting - another tried and true approach that
succeeds.

If you pre-drill the holes and clip the pointy ends off the nails, then dip
each in a glue before inserting them you will succeed without splitting the
work and the "pegs" should hold as well as if simply nailed into place.


"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Unquestionably Confused (in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| Mekon (in ) said:
||
||| IMHO when you 'drilled' with the nail all you did was drive a nail
||| into the wood twice, once with the DP and once with the hammer.
||
|| This is also my guess. The drilling operation needs to remove some
|| part of the stock to make room for the nail shank - it's not
|| enough to just tear the wood fibers where you plan to drive the
|| nail.
|
| While drilling would seem to be the absolute "cure," how come simply
| dulling the tip of a finishing nail by striking it against a piece
| of concrete, etc. seem to prevent splitting in a great many cases?

My really nerdy guess would be that a blunt end tears/cuts/breaks the
wood fibers - possibly compressing at least some of them into the
bottom of the "hole". If the wood is dry and the fibers are long,
dense, and parallel then it may be more inclined to propagate what
under other conditions might be just tiny splits local to each nail.
I'd guess that this kind of problem would be rare in hardwoods like
elm and common with hardwoods like white oak.

| I know it sounds quite counter-intuitive but the explanation given
| for the the success of this technique is that the dull tip of the
| nail doesn't cut the fiber of the wood as much as it pushes it
| aside.

Hmm - I'd think that a pointed nail would do an even better job of
pushing the fibers aside if that was what worked.

| Don't have the answer myself but it's something worth pondering.

Agreed. It'd also be interesting to hear from construction folks
whether it makes a difference how 16d nails are oriented for driving
[ and I'm already assuming "point toward the wood" :-) ].

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 02:32:12 +0000, Gooey TARBALLS opined:

If you pre-drill the holes and clip the pointy ends off the nails, then dip
each in a glue before inserting them you will succeed without splitting the
work and the "pegs" should hold as well as if simply nailed into place.

I have enough original stock left over to make a replacement for the split
arm. I'm not going to reshape a hundred nails, but I'll certainly drill,
drill deeper, and try some glue.

I think this sort of loom would look fantastic with brass pegs instead of
nails. There isn't the high tension found in other sorts of loom, so the
brass would be strong enough. And yes, an inlay strip would add mightily
to the aesthetic.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
wreck20051219 at spambob.net

I always heard the explanation as the opposite: The pointy tip of a
wire nail goes bewtween the wood fibers and then the body of the nail
wedges them apart as it is driven in. A wire nail with a
dulled/flattened tip, or a cut nail, cuts the fibers as it is driven
in and has less of the wedging effect that splits the wood.


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

"Australopithecus scobis" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 02:32:12 +0000, Gooey TARBALLS opined:

If you pre-drill the holes and clip the pointy ends off the nails, then
dip
each in a glue before inserting them you will succeed without splitting
the
work and the "pegs" should hold as well as if simply nailed into place.

I have enough original stock left over to make a replacement for the split
arm. I'm not going to reshape a hundred nails, but I'll certainly drill,
drill deeper, and try some glue.


Drill real close to finish diameter. Since a cylinder exerts equal force in
all directions, it's a split looking for the path of least resistance to
drive them without making room.

wrote:
I always heard the explanation as the opposite: The pointy tip of a
wire nail goes bewtween the wood fibers and then the body of the nail
wedges them apart as it is driven in. A wire nail with a
dulled/flattened tip, or a cut nail, cuts the fibers as it is driven
in and has less of the wedging effect that splits the wood.

You're probably right. It makes more sense than what I was remembering
(or DISremembering as the case may beg). At any rate, it seems to
work rather well.

Haven't used the technique with hardwoods all that often. More often
than not it was was pine moldings.

This past weekend had me trimming out a french door unit I'd installed
with oak trim. Of course I used my PC nail but only had one problem
with splitting and that was pure misplacement on my part. The rest of
the nails caused no problem whatsoever even though some were quite close
to the edge of the trim stock. Naturally, the nails are squared off
rather than pointy so...

It was a smaller scale, but I used pop rivets and a
hand-installer for a similar job. Drill for a slight friction
fit, push in the pop rivet, and "pop" it off. That was decades
ago; they're still there, although a few have loosened up in the
holes now. You don't need metal for the rivets; wood will work
fine. This was a rug machine abt 48" square as I recall. If I
did it again, I'd have a pneumatic rivet gun!
Pop
--
--
"Never forget that everything Hitler did
in Germany was legal." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Gooey TARBALLS" wrote in message
news:Msj_f.2681$8g3.164@trnddc02...
"Hmm - I'd think that a pointed nail would do an even better
job "

Yet, years of experience tell those who were taught the
"dull the tip" technique in their youth that, it works. Do
screw with success."

But the approach is an "in the field" substitute/work around
for pre-drilling to prevent splitting - another tried and true
approach that succeeds.

If you pre-drill the holes and clip the pointy ends off the
nails, then dip each in a glue before inserting them you will
succeed without splitting the work and the "pegs" should hold
as well as if simply nailed into place.


"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Unquestionably Confused (in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| Mekon (in )
said:
||
||| IMHO when you 'drilled' with the nail all you did was
drive a nail
||| into the wood twice, once with the DP and once with the
hammer.
||
|| This is also my guess. The drilling operation needs to
remove some
|| part of the stock to make room for the nail shank - it's
not
|| enough to just tear the wood fibers where you plan to drive
the
|| nail.
|
| While drilling would seem to be the absolute "cure," how
come simply
| dulling the tip of a finishing nail by striking it against a
piece
| of concrete, etc. seem to prevent splitting in a great many
cases?

My really nerdy guess would be that a blunt end
tears/cuts/breaks the
wood fibers - possibly compressing at least some of them into
the
bottom of the "hole". If the wood is dry and the fibers are
long,
dense, and parallel then it may be more inclined to propagate
what
under other conditions might be just tiny splits local to each
nail.
I'd guess that this kind of problem would be rare in hardwoods
like
elm and common with hardwoods like white oak.

| I know it sounds quite counter-intuitive but the explanation
given
| for the the success of this technique is that the dull tip
of the
| nail doesn't cut the fiber of the wood as much as it pushes
it
| aside.

Hmm - I'd think that a pointed nail would do an even better
job of
pushing the fibers aside if that was what worked.

| Don't have the answer myself but it's something worth
pondering.

Agreed. It'd also be interesting to hear from construction
folks
whether it makes a difference how 16d nails are oriented for
driving
[ and I'm already assuming "point toward the wood" :-) ].

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto