I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.
They don't hold the screwdriver well and if you give them a good push
and twist the pozi-cross disintegrates and you end up with a misshapen
hole that you can't unscrew, something that never happened to me with
the slotted ones. I'm also anxious when dealing with them about this
point, never wanting to destroy the cross. I hate them.

writes:

I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.
They don't hold the screwdriver well and if you give them a good push
and twist the pozi-cross disintegrates and you end up with a misshapen
hole that you can't unscrew, something that never happened to me with
the slotted ones. I'm also anxious when dealing with them about this
point, never wanting to destroy the cross. I hate them.

Sounds like you used a philips screwdriver and not the proper pozidriv
one. If you use the right one (there is only one size that fits a
given screw, neither amller nor larger works) they are really nice and
don't tend to drop off from the screwdriver.


--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

wrote:
I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.

Just use Robertson...

Chris

wrote in message
oups.com...

I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.
They don't hold the screwdriver well and if you give them a good push
and twist the pozi-cross disintegrates and you end up with a misshapen
hole that you can't unscrew, something that never happened to me with
the slotted ones. I'm also anxious when dealing with them about this
point, never wanting to destroy the cross. I hate them.


Well if you are using these screws for woodworking may I suggest you step up
or back to a 19th or 20th century design screw, actually older than the
pozi-cross and Phillips screw. Try the Square drive screw. You'll never
look back.

I hate them.

Me too. Why don't more people (or manufacturers or retailers, I guess)
use square drive? Far less likely to strip, the screw stays on your
bit, and the bit doesn't tend to cam itself out of the screw like most
of the common designs now. Is Robertson a brand of square drive? I
couldn't tell for sure after 30 sec of looking at their website.
I find myself using Rockler's square drive screws (I know, McFeeley's
or Robertson? are probably better...) even when a cheapo drywall screw
will do, just because I like the square drive.
Andy

In article .com,
wrote:

I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.
They don't hold the screwdriver well and if you give them a good push
and twist the pozi-cross disintegrates and you end up with a misshapen
hole that you can't unscrew, something that never happened to me with
the slotted ones. I'm also anxious when dealing with them about this
point, never wanting to destroy the cross. I hate them.

Posidriv screws were developed primarily for high-speed automated
assembly systems.
Dr. Hanappel is correct that there is a specific driver for a specific
screw.
The majority of the European style cabinet hinges adjust with Posidriv
screwdrivers. Adjusting them with Philips drivers can cam-out and
destroy the screws.

Robertson square drive screws are the best for woodworking applications
as they come in all the right sizes, thread-counts and thread-depths.
McFeely's sells screws that simply can't be beat for holding power and
strength.
The reason why square drive screws didn't get the attention they
deserved was that the automotive industry didn't like them. The can jam
an automatic-feed driver. The bit won't insert at 45 degrees to the hole.
Posidriv screws solved that problem.

Never use a Philips bit to drive a Posidriv.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:

The reason why square drive screws didn't get the attention they
deserved was that the automotive industry didn't like them. The can jam
an automatic-feed driver. The bit won't insert at 45 degrees to the hole.
Posidriv screws solved that problem.


That may very well be true but originally Henry Ford was looking for a
better screw than the slotted screw. Robertson showed him his screw, Ford
liked it and wanted to buy the rights to manufacture the Robertson screw.
Robertson was only interested in supplying the screw and not selling the
rights to manufacture the screw. Negotiations stopped there. Later, this
guy Phillips came along, showed him his screw, and the rest is history.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 16:16:08 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:

The reason why square drive screws didn't get the attention they
deserved was that the automotive industry didn't like them. The can jam
an automatic-feed driver. The bit won't insert at 45 degrees to the hole.
Posidriv screws solved that problem.


That may very well be true but originally Henry Ford was looking for a
better screw than the slotted screw. Robertson showed him his screw, Ford
liked it and wanted to buy the rights to manufacture the Robertson screw.
Robertson was only interested in supplying the screw and not selling the
rights to manufacture the screw. Negotiations stopped there. Later, this
guy Phillips came along, showed him his screw, and the rest is history.

Although that's also my understanding of the chronology, there's a
little more to it according to McFeeley's catalog. As it turns out the
thing the Robertson is great for (positive action without slipping) is
anathema to mass assembly. It's much easier to have the tip "cam out"
of the head (as a Phillips will do) for torque control than can be
done with the square drive. So the failure of the negotiations was a
happy accident (for industry).


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

Andy wrote:
Is Robertson a brand of square drive?

Robertson is the original square drive, named after the inventor.

He got screwed over by a British licensee, then because of that refused
to let Ford license and exclusively distribute them in the US. Phillips
had no problems with those terms.

The rest is history.

The patent expired in '64, so they're slowly making their way out of
Canada now, becoming more popular elsewhere.

Chris

"LRod" wrote in message
...


Although that's also my understanding of the chronology, there's a
little more to it according to McFeeley's catalog. As it turns out the
thing the Robertson is great for (positive action without slipping) is
anathema to mass assembly. It's much easier to have the tip "cam out"
of the head (as a Phillips will do) for torque control than can be
done with the square drive. So the failure of the negotiations was a
happy accident (for industry).


Ultimately yes indeed. I think Ford was probably putting each screw in by
human power back then One at a time. Had he had a fast way of using slotted
screws the square drive surely would have been faster. LOL Ultimately the
Philips is quicker for fast multiple installations. Dry wall screws are
another situation where the Phillips design works out better.

Robatoy wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.
They don't hold the screwdriver well and if you give them a good push
and twist the pozi-cross disintegrates and you end up with a misshapen
hole that you can't unscrew, something that never happened to me with
the slotted ones. I'm also anxious when dealing with them about this
point, never wanting to destroy the cross. I hate them.

Posidriv screws were developed primarily for high-speed automated
assembly systems.
Dr. Hanappel is correct that there is a specific driver for a specific
screw.
The majority of the European style cabinet hinges adjust with Posidriv
screwdrivers. Adjusting them with Philips drivers can cam-out and
destroy the screws.

Robertson square drive screws are the best for woodworking applications
as they come in all the right sizes, thread-counts and thread-depths.
McFeely's sells screws that simply can't be beat for holding power and
strength.
The reason why square drive screws didn't get the attention they
deserved was that the automotive industry didn't like them. The can jam
an automatic-feed driver. The bit won't insert at 45 degrees to the hole.
Posidriv screws solved that problem.

Never use a Philips bit to drive a Posidriv.

How would I know the difference between a Philips and a Pozi-cross?

On 2 Mar 2006 06:41:16 -0800, wrote:


I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.
They don't hold the screwdriver well and if you give them a good push
and twist the pozi-cross disintegrates and you end up with a misshapen
hole that you can't unscrew, something that never happened to me with
the slotted ones. I'm also anxious when dealing with them about this
point, never wanting to destroy the cross. I hate them.


Amen to hating the pozi-drive. I used to buy the Spax uni-drive( a
Robertson -Phillips hybrid) from LV in #8 x1 1/4 ". Now it seems that
length is available only in the much hated pozi-drive version. I'm
almost out of my supply of the good ones, with no replacement in
sight( except ordinary robertson head screws). I guess I should be
complaining to Robin Lee

In article .com,
wrote:

How would I know the difference between a Philips and a Pozi-cross?

A Phillips is in the shape of a four pointed star. So is the posidriv,
but it has small lines running at 45 degrees from the centre of the
star... so it looks like two Phillips stars... one of them too shallow
to take a driver.

In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:

The reason why square drive screws didn't get the attention they
deserved was that the automotive industry didn't like them. The can jam
an automatic-feed driver. The bit won't insert at 45 degrees to the hole.
Posidriv screws solved that problem.


That may very well be true but originally Henry Ford was looking for a
better screw than the slotted screw. Robertson showed him his screw, Ford
liked it and wanted to buy the rights to manufacture the Robertson screw.
Robertson was only interested in supplying the screw and not selling the
rights to manufacture the screw. Negotiations stopped there. Later, this
guy Phillips came along, showed him his screw, and the rest is history.

That version sounds plausible too.
But try to find an auto-feed square drive screw system.
It is not suitable for rapid insertion as the driver and screw can find
themselves at exactly 45 degrees, stopping the driver bit from insertion.
The other reason is that the bit and hole are almost the same size, ..
with Phillips or Posidriv, the tip is much smaller than the opening at
the head of the screw making insertion inevitable without risk of a jam.

I'm talking about automation screw drivers which can screw several per
second. (Usually stationary equipment on an assembly line.)

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Mr. Robertson got 'Avro-Arrowed'.

In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message
...


Although that's also my understanding of the chronology, there's a
little more to it according to McFeeley's catalog. As it turns out the
thing the Robertson is great for (positive action without slipping) is
anathema to mass assembly. It's much easier to have the tip "cam out"
of the head (as a Phillips will do) for torque control than can be
done with the square drive. So the failure of the negotiations was a
happy accident (for industry).


Ultimately yes indeed. I think Ford was probably putting each screw in by
human power back then One at a time. Had he had a fast way of using slotted
screws the square drive surely would have been faster. LOL Ultimately the
Philips is quicker for fast multiple installations. Dry wall screws are
another situation where the Phillips design works out better.

The Model T Ford had 700 square drive screws in them according to this
blurb:

Robertson Screw
In 1908, square-drive screws were invented by Canadian P. L. Robertson.
Twenty-eight years before Henry Phillips patented his Phillips head
screws, which are also square-drive screws.The Robertson screw is
considered the "first recess-drive type fastener practical for
production usage." The design became a North American standard, as
published in the sixth edition of Industrial Fasteners Institute Metric
and Inch Standards. A square-drive head on a screw can be better than a
slot head because the screwdriver will not slip out of the screw's head
during installation. The Model T car made by the Ford Motor Company (one
of Robertson's first customers) used over seven hundred Robertson screws.

Phillips Head Screw
In the early 1930s, the Phillips head screw was invented by Henry
Phillips. Automobile manufacturers now used car assembly lines. They
needed screws that could take greater torque and could provide tighter
fastenings. The Phillips head screw was compatible with the automated
screwdrivers used in assembly line.

Source:
http://inventors.about.com/od/sstart...crewdriver.htm

Ultimately, I don't consider anything else but square drive screws.
McFeely makes a low-root steel bugle head which is a top performer.

Chris Friesen wrote:
wrote:
I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.

Just use Robertson...

Chris

They seem hard to find. I went to the store today with the Robertson in
mind and I couldn't see any. They had all sorts of slotted and
pozi-cross, perhaps 50 or more varities each, but I never saw any
square ones.

LRod wrote:

Although that's also my understanding of the chronology, there's a
little more to it according to McFeeley's catalog. As it turns out the
thing the Robertson is great for (positive action without slipping) is
anathema to mass assembly. It's much easier to have the tip "cam out"
of the head (as a Phillips will do) for torque control than can be
done with the square drive.

Oh, that explains it! I always wondered what they're doing in those
DIY TV shows when the host is stripping the screw head - they're
controlling the torque by cam-out!

Seriously, it seems to me that it must be a **** poor manufacturing
operation that utilizes cam-out to control torque. Kind of like using
blood loss to indicate the end of the work day.

R

On 2 Mar 2006 12:16:44 -0800, wrote:


Robatoy wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.
They don't hold the screwdriver well and if you give them a good push
and twist the pozi-cross disintegrates and you end up with a misshapen
hole that you can't unscrew, something that never happened to me with
the slotted ones. I'm also anxious when dealing with them about this
point, never wanting to destroy the cross. I hate them.

Posidriv screws were developed primarily for high-speed automated
assembly systems.
Dr. Hanappel is correct that there is a specific driver for a specific
screw.
The majority of the European style cabinet hinges adjust with Posidriv
screwdrivers. Adjusting them with Philips drivers can cam-out and
destroy the screws.

Robertson square drive screws are the best for woodworking applications
as they come in all the right sizes, thread-counts and thread-depths.
McFeely's sells screws that simply can't be beat for holding power and
strength.
The reason why square drive screws didn't get the attention they
deserved was that the automotive industry didn't like them. The can jam
an automatic-feed driver. The bit won't insert at 45 degrees to the hole.
Posidriv screws solved that problem.

Never use a Philips bit to drive a Posidriv.

How would I know the difference between a Philips and a Pozi-cross?
A Pozi driver will not fit in a Philips screw. A Philips driver will
fit very loose in a Pozi screw. A Pozi driver will have PZ and a
number on it, such as PZ2. I think Pozi screws are getting a bad
rap here. For some applications they are fine, such as for Euro
hardware and the hi-lo screws for Melamine.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...


Ultimately yes indeed. I think Ford was probably putting each screw in
by
human power back then One at a time. Had he had a fast way of using
slotted
screws the square drive surely would have been faster. LOL Ultimately
the
Philips is quicker for fast multiple installations. Dry wall screws are
another situation where the Phillips design works out better.

The Model T Ford had 700 square drive screws in them according to this
blurb:

Robertson Screw
In 1908, square-drive screws were invented by Canadian P. L. Robertson.
Twenty-eight years before Henry Phillips patented his Phillips head
screws, which are also square-drive screws.The Robertson screw is
considered the "first recess-drive type fastener practical for
production usage." The design became a North American standard, as
published in the sixth edition of Industrial Fasteners Institute Metric
and Inch Standards. A square-drive head on a screw can be better than a
slot head because the screwdriver will not slip out of the screw's head
during installation. The Model T car made by the Ford Motor Company (one
of Robertson's first customers) used over seven hundred Robertson screws.

Phillips Head Screw
In the early 1930s, the Phillips head screw was invented by Henry
Phillips. Automobile manufacturers now used car assembly lines. They
needed screws that could take greater torque and could provide tighter
fastenings. The Phillips head screw was compatible with the automated
screwdrivers used in assembly line.

Well CRAP Robatoy...!!!! The History Channel sure has a different spin on
that. I'll keep that in mind the next time some one asks. Thanks.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
LRod wrote:

Although that's also my understanding of the chronology, there's a
little more to it according to McFeeley's catalog. As it turns out the
thing the Robertson is great for (positive action without slipping) is
anathema to mass assembly. It's much easier to have the tip "cam out"
of the head (as a Phillips will do) for torque control than can be
done with the square drive.

Oh, that explains it! I always wondered what they're doing in those
DIY TV shows when the host is stripping the screw head - they're
controlling the torque by cam-out!

Seriously, it seems to me that it must be a **** poor manufacturing
operation that utilizes cam-out to control torque. Kind of like using
blood loss to indicate the end of the work day.


One would think. but it woks marvelously and is basically the whole
principal behind dry wall screws and how deeply they go in.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...

That may very well be true but originally Henry Ford was looking for a
better screw than the slotted screw. Robertson showed him his screw,
Ford
liked it and wanted to buy the rights to manufacture the Robertson screw.
Robertson was only interested in supplying the screw and not selling the
rights to manufacture the screw. Negotiations stopped there. Later,
this
guy Phillips came along, showed him his screw, and the rest is history.

That version sounds plausible too.
But try to find an auto-feed square drive screw system.
It is not suitable for rapid insertion as the driver and screw can find
themselves at exactly 45 degrees, stopping the driver bit from insertion.
The other reason is that the bit and hole are almost the same size, ..
with Phillips or Posidriv, the tip is much smaller than the opening at
the head of the screw making insertion inevitable without risk of a jam.

I'm talking about automation screw drivers which can screw several per
second. (Usually stationary equipment on an assembly line.)


I understand what you are saying and totally agree. But if going 1 at a
time the square drive had to be a big improvement over the slotted head.

Hi guys
I guess non of you guys have ever seen the inside of a car assembly
plant.
I retired a few years ago after 30 years in the car assembly plants,
high speed screw guns walk on two feet and nowadays hardly any screws
are used on the cars anymore, it's all plastic mouldings with studs
moulded on, that are hammered into body holes with steel clips in them,
we used to screw a-post, b-post and if there, rear door mouldings and
doglegs on the car with screws, also the roof and drip rail chrome
strips would be screwed down and inside the windshield and backlight
mouldings where screwed on to keep the cloth, and later covered
cardboard headliners up and cover up the rubber around the glass.
Screw guns, air driven and high speed were and are used to instal
screws, by assemblers, and we had several differand style mostly #2
phillip screw tips, to fit the screws, some with small ribs almost like
serrated, and magnetic holders, because you would not want the tip to
come out of the screw, and damage a chrome and later mostly aluminium
and also if you where installing for instance a coat hook and slipped
out push that screwtip through your finger.
We used wads of soft tar to stick the screw tips in to get rid off any
small metal slivers on the tip.
Some of the guys would be installing mouldings that kept the vinyl up
around the door openings put in several screws, while also holding the
moulding in place on every car, and at 60+ cars an hour have any idea
how long a tip would last if you would let it torque out ?? and people
would not be happy with screws that have skin cutting edges on them. O
well this is enough, If you don't know what you're talking about, ask,
or go and find out, there is enough BS out there already.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

But if going 1 at a
time the square drive had to be a big improvement over the slotted head.

Hell yes! No comparison.
Then, when you find out that you can get square drive bits with just a
hint of taper on the tip, installing cabinets just became whole lot
easier, especially when you use an impact driver.
You actually have to pull the driver off the screw.
No falling off, no wobble. Almost orgasmic.

Then again.. a brass slotted screw..just flush in a piece of well
finished dark wood, looks pretty tasty.

In article . com,
wrote:

Leo Van Der Loo

With a name like that, were you assembling DAF's? ;-)

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

But if going 1 at a
time the square drive had to be a big improvement over the slotted head.

Hell yes! No comparison.
Then, when you find out that you can get square drive bits with just a
hint of taper on the tip, installing cabinets just became whole lot
easier, especially when you use an impact driver.
You actually have to pull the driver off the screw.
No falling off, no wobble. Almost orgasmic.

Hey you are preaching to the choir. I have been using square drive "with a
taper" in South East Texas, a long long way from Canada,;~) since the early
80's. I recall when they were simply not to be had locally. And yes the
taper is the cream de la cream, but some times it is annoying when you have
to jerk the driver to get the bit out of the screw head. On the other hand
when reaching from the top end of a 20' ladder to put up a light fixture
that feature is very nice.
On my last kitchen redo the former owners were a bit AR. They put hard
putty in all the heads of the mounting screws inside the cabinets and of
course they screws were Phillips dry wall screws. My Phillips bit in my
drill was simply caming out. But then that light came on and I put the
Phillips bit in my impact driver. The screws came right out.

In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

Hey you are preaching to the choir.

LOL..At least you know the words and the melody. Many here aren't in the
choir...yet. :-)

[snip]
They put hard
putty in all the heads of the mounting screws inside the cabinets and of
course they screws were Phillips dry wall screws. My Phillips bit in my
drill was simply caming out. But then that light came on and I put the
Phillips bit in my impact driver. The screws came right out.

That's one to remember. Thanks for that.
I wonder how well an EZ-Out would work in an impact driver.

In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

Try the Square drive screw. You'll never
look back.

I hate to tell you this, leon.. but i just used a square drive
screw....and then I did it... I looked back.

Now what?

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

Try the Square drive screw. You'll never
look back.

I hate to tell you this, leon.. but i just used a square drive
screw....and then I did it... I looked back.

Now what?

You made me a liar.

no I'm a skilled tradesman millwright, and worked for Ford Motor co.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

I love the square drives for electrical outlets,switches and boxes. You can
really tighten them without fear of jamming the driver into your hand. But
changing the bits for every diff operation is very tedious. Why can't the
electrical manufactures standardize the screw/drive size??
Drives me crazy. Square drive is a great inovation old or new.
wrote in message
oups.com...

I don't know what the point of them is compared to the slotted ones.
They don't hold the screwdriver well and if you give them a good push
and twist the pozi-cross disintegrates and you end up with a misshapen
hole that you can't unscrew, something that never happened to me with
the slotted ones. I'm also anxious when dealing with them about this
point, never wanting to destroy the cross. I hate them.

On 3-Mar-2006, Robatoy wrote:

and then I did it... I looked back.

Now what?

Guinness Book of Records as the first pillar of salt that can type?

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi guys
I guess non of you guys have ever seen the inside of a car assembly
plant.

No, Oddly I have not. However for many years I was on the the receiving
end of of customers complaining about their new cars and that was only if my
service advisors could not reassure him or her that all of these models make
that noise, or fit that way, or not blow out that vent, or..... Its a small
wonder why Detroit is loosing ground.

No dirrect fault of yours of course and it was not a Ford product.

"Robatoy" wrote
--Snip--

The majority of the European style cabinet hinges adjust with Posidriv
screwdrivers. Adjusting them with Philips drivers can cam-out and
destroy the screws.

--Snip--
Never use a Philips bit to drive a Posidriv.

I hate Posidriv heads. I usually find out AFTER camming one out. Grrrrr.

Ok, so I'm on a job site, I have ONE spare screw in the hardware pack (gotta
love the overcount), a short deadline, and NO posidriv bits available
anywhere. Grab the spare #2 phillips bit, off to the grinder and CAREFULLY
take the point down so most of the bit now engages the slots. CAREFULLY
install all the bits, and write off that #2 Xcelite.


Grrrrr.



Rick

The Leon entity posted thusly:

...r for many years I was on the the receiving
end of of customers complaining about their new cars and that was only if my
service advisors could not reassure him or her that all of these models make
that noise, or fit that way, or not blow out that vent, or.....

In a maintenance log...

Complaint: #3 engine leaking oil
Resolution: Small leak normal on this type of engine

next flight...

Complaint: engines 1, 2, and 4 missing oil leak.

Leon wrote:

No, Oddly I have not. However for many years I was on the the receiving
end of of customers complaining about their new cars and that was only if my
service advisors could not reassure him or her that all of these models make
that noise, or fit that way, or not blow out that vent, or..... Its a small
wonder why Detroit is loosing ground.
I think the reason Detroit is loosing ground is the service. I own a
Japaneese car and the wife owns a Ford. Both have had issues and are at
about the same mileage. JD Powers ranks the durability of GM and Ford
within Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (IIRC They are about 5 points difference)

The service difference is:

1) I take my car in for an issue and it's fixed. Or if they can't find
the problem, they say "we can't find it, but we tried this - if it
doesn't work, let us know". I had one No Problem Found with this car.
Next time I brought it in, it was "We'll replace xxx as a precaution".

2) She takes her car in (with me making the appointment and letting them
know exactly how to duplicate the problem), it's NO PROBLEM FOUND.
Well, that's nice, but I don't take time out of our days to call you
guys up, make an appointment, miss some work and be inconvenienced if
there's nothing wrong with my car. At least do something to try to fix
it. Don't just tell me that there's nothing you can do. You can
replace something, adjust something, or take a guess. If nothing else,
it makes us feel better that, yes, it's a tough issue, but you are doing
something about it.

Case in point - her car has a pretty regular issue on hot starts - most
of the time you really have to crank it to get it to start. And then it
stumbles before it catches. I know it's a tough one, but their answer
is: No codes from the computer, and we couldn't duplicate. Well, you
mean to tell me there's nothing else to check (fuel pressure/pump,
coils, temperature sensors, MAF, MAS Sensors, battery, starter, etc.)?
Something's not working properly and it's your JOB to fix it and know
what to check, not to dismiss our concerns as "we can't find it".

It's not just me - the wife's fed up - her next car Will NOT Be another
American. I don't blame her - mine probably won't either.

"Oleg Lego" wrote in message
...
The Leon entity posted thusly:


In a maintenance log...

Complaint: #3 engine leaking oil
Resolution: Small leak normal on this type of engine

next flight...

Complaint: engines 1, 2, and 4 missing oil leak.


ROTFL...... After wiping the tears out of my eyes, that kinda scares me.
;~)

"Newsgroup User" wrote in message
...

I think the reason Detroit is loosing ground is the service. I own a
Japaneese car and the wife owns a Ford. Both have had issues and are at
about the same mileage. JD Powers ranks the durability of GM and Ford
within Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (IIRC They are about 5 points difference)


Addressing the JD Powers reports, keep in mind that no one likes to admit
that they have bought a car that is a problem and often small problems are
overlooked to maintain the feeling that his purchase was a good one. He
probably had 3 to 6 years left to pay for the car. Additionally many like
to validate their purchase by answering a questionnaire with answers that
may be a bit biased in favor of the automobile that he chose to purchase.
Few people like to admit that they again passed up buying the 30 years
running dependability of a Japanese vehicle to get the more flashy Detroit
model. Additional brand loyal American car buyers are seeing improvements
in their vehicles and feel that the American automakers deserve extra credit
on the survey.

What is apparent to the customer as being poor service is but not
necessarily all of the dealers fault. Let me explain some of the reasons
below each of your numbered comments below. I know things have changed but
most likely not that much since I was in the automotive business. I was the
Service sales manager and a Parts Department manager for a large Oldsmobile
dealer and a GM for an AC/Delco whole distributor that only sold to GM
dealers in the Houston and SE Texas area in the late 70's through 1995.

The service difference is:

1) I take my car in for an issue and it's fixed. Or if they can't find
the problem, they say "we can't find it, but we tried this - if it doesn't
work, let us know". I had one No Problem Found with this car. Next time I
brought it in, it was "We'll replace xxx as a precaution".

When I worked for the Oldsmobile dealer in the mid 80's we had a Toyota
dealership 1/4 mile away and both facilities were relocations from the down
town area of Houston. Our dealership on average replaced parts under
warranty about 40 times a day. We held on to these parts for the Olds
service rep to review, approve or disapprove and scrap. The Toyota dealer
had about 2 parts per day. The bulk of his business was Customer Pay. Our
biggest single customer was Oldsmobile. Our Customer Pay to warranty repair
ratio was about 60/40 respectively. It was not unusual to write up 100
customers before noon on a Monday morning and we had a weeks worth of work
by Wednesday noon. This is a little known fact but the factory does not
reimburse a dealer for every warranty repair and the dealer foots the
warranty repair bill until the factory issues credit. Toyota and other
better Japanese auto builders simply don't have the number of defects as the
Oldsmobile's did. Oldsmobile was probably in the middle of the pack as far
as Detroit quality was concerned. Not having so much warranty work to do
and having a majority of work being Customer Pay is a direct result of
selling and servicing a quality product. Warranty problems are typically
harder to diagnose than the average run of the mill normal maintenance. A
dealer that has little warranty work and money tied up waiting for credit
from the factory can more easily afford to take a guess and write off the
occasional part to satisfy a customer. Back in the 80's Oldsmobile
determined how many warranty claims to refuse the dealer by how that dealer
compared in number of repairs to the other 4 dealers in the metro area. If
we used 25% more of the same parts than the average of the other dealers
for a particular complaint the rep would find a reason to reject some
claims. Walking into the dealership to review warranty parts he knew up
front how many would be approved.


2) She takes her car in (with me making the appointment and letting them
know exactly how to duplicate the problem), it's NO PROBLEM FOUND. Well,
that's nice, but I don't take time out of our days to call you guys up,
make an appointment, miss some work and be inconvenienced if there's
nothing wrong with my car. At least do something to try to fix it. Don't
just tell me that there's nothing you can do. You can replace something,
adjust something, or take a guess. If nothing else, it makes us feel
better that, yes, it's a tough issue, but you are doing something about
it.

Unfortunately and including the reasons stated above, Oldsmobile kept close
track of which repairs that were being done under warranty on each
automobile. They paid for a particular repair "1" time, correctly diagnosed
or not. If the technician found no problem but went ahead and made a guess
to solve the complaint Oldsmobile would pay for that repair under ideal
repair ratio conditions. If that car came back with the same complaint and
warranty repairs were again made for the same complaint, the factory would
flag that repair for additional authorization and the first repair would
be charged back to the dealer, parts and labor.
That is the #1 reason parts or adjustments were/are simply not done for the
sake of hoping that the problem will be resolved.
Unfortunately that does not help the person that should be of the most
primary concern, the customer.


Case in point - her car has a pretty regular issue on hot starts - most of
the time you really have to crank it to get it to start. And then it
stumbles before it catches. I know it's a tough one, but their answer is:
No codes from the computer, and we couldn't duplicate. Well, you mean to
tell me there's nothing else to check (fuel pressure/pump, coils,
temperature sensors, MAF, MAS Sensors, battery, starter, etc.)?
Something's not working properly and it's your JOB to fix it and know what
to check, not to dismiss our concerns as "we can't find it".

Unfortunately and again because of the above stated reasons and because
Oldsmobile did not pay to check each and every part, that procedure of
checking each and every possible cause on every vehicle that come in for a
warranty repair was not authorized or approved by the factory. Oldsmobile
had a strict order in which to diagnose and if the computer had no codes,
repairs past that point were most often on the dealers time and money.
Remember, if the technician came up with a code on his own to warrant
replacement of a part or make an adjustment, that repair had better be the
final solution or risk the factory charging back that repair, parts and
labor.

Basically, when a company is building a quality product and warranty
problems are few and far in between when compared to the competition the
service department breaths easier, can afford, and gladly goes the extra
mile to please the customer. If the warranty repairs are 40% of your
service business, life in the service department it quite touchy concerning
warranty repairs and trying to insure a minimum of factory charge backs.
Fewer chances are taken by the dealers with Detroit built vehicles.

Keep in mind also that not every technician is great, many are almost genius
but a large percentage of technicians flow from one dealer ship to another
including moving from a foreign car dealer to an American car dealer quite
often.

Why are American car manufacturers so stingy with their warranty
authorizations? IIRC the latest reports are that GM pays, and again IIRC,
about 80% of the profit on every car for employee benefits.


It's not just me - the wife's fed up - her next car Will NOT Be another
American. I don't blame her - mine probably won't either.

I absolutely do not blame you at all.

Leon wrote:
Addressing the JD Powers reports, keep in mind that no one likes to admit
that they have bought a car that is a problem and often small problems are
overlooked to maintain the feeling that his purchase was a good one. He
probably had 3 to 6 years left to pay for the car. Additionally many like
to validate their purchase by answering a questionnaire with answers that
may be a bit biased in favor of the automobile that he chose to purchase.

I dono - Mercedes, Audi, and VW are pretty low on that list. BMW was
and has moved up tremendously. And even Hyundai is pretty low, although
they have improved TREMENDOUSLY over the past years to make a decent car.

What is apparent to the customer as being poor service is but not
necessarily all of the dealers fault. Let me explain some of the reasons

I know that - it comes from the top (car manufacturer)

by Wednesday noon. This is a little known fact but the factory does not
reimburse a dealer for every warranty repair and the dealer foots the
warranty repair bill until the factory issues credit. Toyota and other
better Japanese auto builders simply don't have the number of defects as the
Oldsmobile's did. Oldsmobile was probably in the middle of the pack as far

That's the problem right there. I don't think it's necessarily a
difference in quality - I had the same # of issues with my car and they
have all been minor. But the dealer's attitude is what makes them OK by
me - they take a proactive role in fixing them and addressing the
concerns rather than a "we can't find it" attitude.

And when there are defects in the car, they seem willing to back them
up. There were brake wear issues on my model. The manufacturer
extended the warranty on the brakes to 36k. Saved me $500 on a brake
job (pads and rotors all around). And when I took it in, the service
guy's response was "Fronts are worn down, rears are OK, but we'll do the
whole car so you don't have to come back for a while." That's what I
want to hear as a customer. Not "At 32k, we did the front, rear was
OK." at 40k the rears are shot, sorry about your luck.

As a result, I use the dealer for the most part regarding my maintenance
and service needs.

I guess that's the problem - the Japaneese would rather have a system
that builds loyalty long term (I'm most likely to return to this brand
again for my next car.) rather than the quick buck of the American
companies.

That is the #1 reason parts or adjustments were/are simply not done for the
sake of hoping that the problem will be resolved.
Unfortunately that does not help the person that should be of the most
primary concern, the customer.

EXACTLY. It should not be my job to wait until the car leaves us
stranded to get things fixed. I'd doubt most (if not all) customers
like taking their cars to the dealer for work, so any concerns should be
addressed properly. If it takes 10 parts to fix the problem, then
that's GM/Ford/Toyota's problem - the customer buys a car that has a
warranty, something goes wrong, it doesn't matter how much it costs the
mfg, as long as it's fixed.

If it takes more tech training, then that's what it takes. Promote a
good working environment and your employees will stay. Promote a bad
one and they will leave.

Basically, when a company is building a quality product and warranty
problems are few and far in between when compared to the competition the
service department breaths easier, can afford, and gladly goes the extra
mile to please the customer. If the warranty repairs are 40% of your
service business, life in the service department it quite touchy concerning
warranty repairs and trying to insure a minimum of factory charge backs.
Fewer chances are taken by the dealers with Detroit built vehicles.

That's a shame. It's going to be their downfall. I think they build
fine cars for the most part, it's the service that SUCKS. And if this
is the way it's run, they deserve to go bankrupt.

They have to realize there's 100 different cars I could buy - I chose
them and they need to ensure I have a good experience so I come back.


Keep in mind also that not every technician is great, many are almost genius
but a large percentage of technicians flow from one dealer ship to another
including moving from a foreign car dealer to an American car dealer quite
often.

That's true. I work in IT, have for 12 years now. Have no certs or
anything like that. Yet I'm constantly explaining things to our MCSE,
MCSA, CCNA, etc. people how things work. It's a shame really - they
have the paper but cannot think outside the box.

Why are American car manufacturers so stingy with their warranty
authorizations? IIRC the latest reports are that GM pays, and again IIRC,
about 80% of the profit on every car for employee benefits.
OUCH.

It's not just me - the wife's fed up - her next car Will NOT Be another
American. I don't blame her - mine probably won't either.

I absolutely do not blame you at all.

The shame is it's not because of the quality of the car, it's because of
the quality of the service.....

wrote:
...


We used wads of soft tar to stick the screw tips in to get rid off any
small metal slivers on the tip.

So that's how that gunk go on there!

.... O
well this is enough, If you don't know what you're talking about, ask,
or go and find out, there is enough BS out there already.

Wasn't GM the first to use torx drives in large quantitites on
their cars?

I would suppose that torx dirves could be easily automated and
would carry more torque (hence the name) than Phillips or
Robertsons. Is that so?

--

FF

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 09:00:46 -0500, Newsgroup User
wrote:

Leon wrote:
Addressing the JD Powers reports, keep in mind that no one likes to admit
that they have bought a car that is a problem and often small problems are
overlooked to maintain the feeling that his purchase was a good one. He
probably had 3 to 6 years left to pay for the car. Additionally many like
to validate their purchase by answering a questionnaire with answers that
may be a bit biased in favor of the automobile that he chose to purchase.

I dono - Mercedes, Audi, and VW are pretty low on that list. BMW was
and has moved up tremendously. And even Hyundai is pretty low, although
they have improved TREMENDOUSLY over the past years to make a decent car.

What is apparent to the customer as being poor service is but not
necessarily all of the dealers fault. Let me explain some of the reasons

I know that - it comes from the top (car manufacturer)

by Wednesday noon. This is a little known fact but the factory does not
reimburse a dealer for every warranty repair and the dealer foots the
warranty repair bill until the factory issues credit. Toyota and other
better Japanese auto builders simply don't have the number of defects as the
Oldsmobile's did. Oldsmobile was probably in the middle of the pack as far

That's the problem right there. I don't think it's necessarily a
difference in quality - I had the same # of issues with my car and they
have all been minor. But the dealer's attitude is what makes them OK by
me - they take a proactive role in fixing them and addressing the
concerns rather than a "we can't find it" attitude.
/snip/

No, IMO, the problem is quality. You personally had the same
number of issues with a non-USA car that you had with a USA car.
Overall, though, USA cars have far more problems. The dealers
of a car from the USA has no time to have the same attitude as
the dealer of a well built car.