I am working on a small shelf unit for storing CDs, DVDs, and video tapes.

The unit that is presently sitting in clamps is 32' high and 23" wide. The
shelves are 6 ¼" deep. The wood is ash. The shelves are set in dados across the
uprights.

The question:
I am using Titebond II, applied to the inside of the dados and the ends of the
shelf boards. Each of the four shelves fit well and I used four bar or pipe
clamps per shelf on the outside of the uprights to keep everything together
while the glue set. There was a small amount of "cup" in the uprights that I
was able to draw in with the clamps. The joints are tight enough that I got a
little ooze on each of them. After curing for 24 hours, can I expect the bond
to hold, or will I get a nasty surprise when I remove the clamps?

I have not used any mechanical fasteners.


Thanks for any illumination into what to expect when I pull the clamps.
____________________
Bill Waller
New Eagle, PA

"Bill Waller" wrote in message
...

The question:
I am using Titebond II, applied to the inside of the dados and the ends of
the
shelf boards. Each of the four shelves fit well and I used four bar or
pipe
clamps per shelf on the outside of the uprights to keep everything
together
while the glue set. There was a small amount of "cup" in the uprights that
I
was able to draw in with the clamps. The joints are tight enough that I
got a
little ooze on each of them. After curing for 24 hours, can I expect the
bond
to hold, or will I get a nasty surprise when I remove the clamps?

You should be just fine. You may hear a few pops as you loosen the clamps.

Leon wrote:
"Bill Waller" wrote in message
...

The question:
I am using Titebond II, applied to the inside of the dados and the ends of
the
shelf boards. Each of the four shelves fit well and I used four bar or
pipe
clamps per shelf on the outside of the uprights to keep everything
together
while the glue set. There was a small amount of "cup" in the uprights that
I
was able to draw in with the clamps. The joints are tight enough that I
got a
little ooze on each of them. After curing for 24 hours, can I expect the
bond
to hold, or will I get a nasty surprise when I remove the clamps?


You should be just fine. You may hear a few pops as you loosen the clamps.




Im about to do the same thing tomorrow. Ill be using Titebond original
wood Glue. When should you use fasteners in addition? My shelf will be
in the basement, in-wall.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

Bill Waller wrote:

I am working on a small shelf unit for storing CDs, DVDs, and video tapes.

The unit that is presently sitting in clamps is 32' high and 23" wide. The
shelves are 6 ¼" deep. The wood is ash. The shelves are set in dados across the
uprights.

The question:
I am using Titebond II, applied to the inside of the dados and the ends of the
shelf boards. Each of the four shelves fit well and I used four bar or pipe
clamps per shelf on the outside of the uprights to keep everything together
while the glue set. There was a small amount of "cup" in the uprights that I
was able to draw in with the clamps. The joints are tight enough that I got a
little ooze on each of them. After curing for 24 hours, can I expect the bond
to hold, or will I get a nasty surprise when I remove the clamps?

I have not used any mechanical fasteners.


Thanks for any illumination into what to expect when I pull the clamps.
____________________
Bill Waller
New Eagle, PA


A day is MORE than enough time for TB is harden. I take clamps off
between 45 minutes to 2 hours, unless I forget or it's nighttime and
then of course I leave the project clamped until the next day. The
shorter clamping time I mentioned is for smaller projects. I'd leave
furniture bonds alone for more than 90 minutes, just to be certain
there's no glue failure.

Dave

"dnoyeB" wrote in message

Im about to do the same thing tomorrow. Ill be using Titebond original
wood Glue. When should you use fasteners in addition? My shelf will be
in the basement, in-wall.

Normally there is no need to use fasteners when you glue shelves into dadoes
in a casework side, although I will do it from time to time. Sometimes in
lieu of clamps, but mostly on a frameless cabinet and when I feel that it
will benefit because of an extraordinary load, or the design calls for it,
or just out of an abundance of precaution ... and then so grandma's
priceless Ming vase won't need krazy glue now that my cabinet shelf pulled
out when the clients teenage gorilla used it for chin-ups.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

Swingman wrote:

Normally there is no need to use fasteners when you glue shelves into dadoes
in a casework side, although I will do it from time to time. Sometimes in
lieu of clamps, but mostly on a frameless cabinet and when I feel that it
will benefit because of an extraordinary load, or the design calls for it,
or just out of an abundance of precaution ... and then so grandma's
priceless Ming vase won't need krazy glue now that my cabinet shelf pulled
out when the clients teenage gorilla used it for chin-ups.


Swingman,

I've always wondered if a glued dado adds a ton of strength to a piece.
I figure on all sides it's an end-grain to face-grain joint. Say...on
a bookcase...if you were only going to glue the shelves into dadoes, do
you have to add a lot of "structural integrity" elsewhere to keep the
case from racking? (Or even pulling apart...)

In other words, does the glue serve basically to keep the shelf from
sliding out, or does it add some integrity to the piece?

Any thoughts appreciated.

32 feet high? Your definition of small is a bit different then mine.

"Bill Waller" wrote in message
...

The unit that is presently sitting in clamps is 32' high and 23" wide.

wrote:

I've always wondered if a glued dado adds a ton of strength to a piece.
I figure on all sides it's an end-grain to face-grain joint. Say...on
a bookcase...if you were only going to glue the shelves into dadoes, do
you have to add a lot of "structural integrity" elsewhere to keep the
case from racking? (Or even pulling apart...)

In other words, does the glue serve basically to keep the shelf from
sliding out, or does it add some integrity to the piece?

Given that end-to-face glue joints don't have *zero* strength, it will
add something--just not a lot.

Also, you have a certain amount of resistance against racking from the
shelf top and bottom pressing against the dado. However, given that the
dados are usually shallow this will not resist a large amount of stress.

Chris

wrote in message
oups.com...


I've always wondered if a glued dado adds a ton of strength to a piece.
I figure on all sides it's an end-grain to face-grain joint. Say...on
a bookcase...if you were only going to glue the shelves into dadoes, do
you have to add a lot of "structural integrity" elsewhere to keep the
case from racking? (Or even pulling apart...)

In other words, does the glue serve basically to keep the shelf from
sliding out, or does it add some integrity to the piece?

Well, yes the glue adds a lot of strength to the joint provided the joint is
a correct fit to start with. Even with out glue a correctly fitted dado
should not allow a shelf to slide out easily. Racking is going to be the
problem, however a thin plywood back and or face frame on the front adds
considerably also.

Chris Friesen wrote:

wrote:

I've always wondered if a glued dado adds a ton of strength to a piece.
I figure on all sides it's an end-grain to face-grain joint. Say...on
a bookcase...if you were only going to glue the shelves into dadoes, do
you have to add a lot of "structural integrity" elsewhere to keep the
case from racking? (Or even pulling apart...)

In other words, does the glue serve basically to keep the shelf from
sliding out, or does it add some integrity to the piece?


Given that end-to-face glue joints don't have *zero* strength, it will
add something--just not a lot.

Also, you have a certain amount of resistance against racking from the
shelf top and bottom pressing against the dado. However, given that the
dados are usually shallow this will not resist a large amount of stress.

Chris
a bottom and top shelf will NOT reduce racking enough to be the final
solution, Chris. A back will solve the problem; even a partial back.

Dave

wrote in message

In other words, does the glue serve basically to keep the shelf from
sliding out, or does it add some integrity to the piece?

What Leon said ... also, if you should happen to dado the top and floor into
the sides, along with the shelf, you may be surprised at how much the
combination can add "integrity" and resist racking, which is what this
thread seems most concerned with.

Cabinets are boxes, and boxes are almost always stronger with at least five
sides, so _attaching_ a back is the key.

Of course, and as a far as racking is concerned, add a faceframe and you're
into elephant seating territory.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

David wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:

Also, you have a certain amount of resistance against racking from the
shelf top and bottom pressing against the dado. However, given that
the dados are usually shallow this will not resist a large amount of
stress.

a bottom and top shelf will NOT reduce racking enough to be the final
solution, Chris. A back will solve the problem; even a partial back.

I may not have been clear. I was discussing the top and bottom of each
shelf pressing against the sides of the dadoes.

If you had (for example) 2" deep dadoes this could contribute a fair bit
of racking strength. However with your basic 3/4" thick uprights you
can't get enough dado depth to contribute any serious amount of
mechanical strength.

Chris

You'll need a back or faceframe to prevent racking, but otherwise the
glue should be more than strong enough since the dado will be bearing
all of the load.

Whenever I do shelves like this, I cut the dados with my router and run
them from the back of the uprights up to within about 1/2" of the
front. Then the shelf can slide in from the back, but not fall out the
front. You just have to "nip" off the corners of the first 1/2" of the
shelf so that it can slide all the way forward. This also makes the
dados invisible once the shelf is in place.

Josh

I put some pictures on line showing what I mean. This is moot to the
OP, of course, but for dnoyeB who's doing this tomorrow, it's something
to consider.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcaron2...gs:television/

Pictures 973 and 974 at the bottom of the page show the detail of the
dado.

Josh

Chris Friesen wrote:

David wrote:

Chris Friesen wrote:


Also, you have a certain amount of resistance against racking from
the shelf top and bottom pressing against the dado. However, given
that the dados are usually shallow this will not resist a large
amount of stress.


a bottom and top shelf will NOT reduce racking enough to be the final
solution, Chris. A back will solve the problem; even a partial back.


I may not have been clear. I was discussing the top and bottom of each
shelf pressing against the sides of the dadoes.

If you had (for example) 2" deep dadoes this could contribute a fair bit
of racking strength. However with your basic 3/4" thick uprights you
can't get enough dado depth to contribute any serious amount of
mechanical strength.

Chris
I've never seen a 2" dado, so I don't see the relevance, but yes, a
deeper dado would provide additional resistance to racking. Having
actually built cabinets, I know that until the back goes on, they have
little stability, even with multiple dadoed shelves.

dave

Josh wrote:
I put some pictures on line showing what I mean. This is moot to the
OP, of course, but for dnoyeB who's doing this tomorrow, it's something
to consider.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcaron2...gs:television/

Pictures 973 and 974 at the bottom of the page show the detail of the
dado.

Josh

Nice stuff! Thanks for the photos...I wasn't quite sure what you had
meant by stopping the dadoes...these 'splain it nicely.

And that's a technique I'm definitely going to copy.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:08:50 -0500, Bill Waller wrote:

I am working on a small shelf unit for storing CDs, DVDs, and video tapes.

The unit that is presently sitting in clamps is 32" high and 23" wide. The
shelves are 6 ¼" deep. The wood is ash. The shelves are set in dados across the
uprights.

The question:
I am using Titebond II, applied to the inside of the dados and the ends of the
shelf boards. Each of the four shelves fit well and I used four bar or pipe
clamps per shelf on the outside of the uprights to keep everything together
while the glue set. There was a small amount of "cup" in the uprights that I
was able to draw in with the clamps. The joints are tight enough that I got a
little ooze on each of them. After curing for 24 hours, can I expect the bond
to hold, or will I get a nasty surprise when I remove the clamps?

I have not used any mechanical fasteners.


Thanks for any illumination into what to expect when I pull the clamps.

Okay, the clamps have come off and nothing moved. I am happy. The second
section is sitting in the clamps,, even as I type.

Thanks for all of the input, including pointing out my 32' typo.

The design does include a back which will be set in a rabbet on the back of the
uprights. The back piece will probably get attached with my little HF brad
nailer.

Considering the anticipated loading for the shelf (see above) I do not
anticipate any problem with overloading. The second section will also be
attached at a 90º angle forming a corner shelf unit configuration. Racking
should not be a problem, once everything is assembled.

I have used this construction method before with softer woods than ash which
was my primary concern.

Thanks for the help.
____________________
Bill Waller
New Eagle, PA

I've never seen a 2" dado, so I don't see the relevance, but yes, a
deeper dado would provide additional resistance to racking. Having
actually built cabinets, I know that until the back goes on, they have
little stability, even with multiple dadoed shelves.

dave


Hmm. This would seem to imply that while my box is curing after
glueing, I should get to work on the back. Then I should glue the back
on before I even move the box too much?

im forseeing sitting this thing on its corner in order to get clamps all
around the back. Is that how folks put backs on boxen?


--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

dnoyeB wrote:


I've never seen a 2" dado, so I don't see the relevance, but yes, a
deeper dado would provide additional resistance to racking. Having
actually built cabinets, I know that until the back goes on, they have
little stability, even with multiple dadoed shelves.

dave



Hmm. This would seem to imply that while my box is curing after
glueing, I should get to work on the back. Then I should glue the back
on before I even move the box too much?

im forseeing sitting this thing on its corner in order to get clamps all
around the back. Is that how folks put backs on boxen?


I put the back on to help ensure the box is squared up. others don't
like spraying finish into a cabinet that has a back (because of annoying
blow back), so they build without the back, do the finishing, and
finally, install the back. There really isn't a right and wrong way to
assembly as long as the results are ok. If the cabinet is melamine, of
course there's no interior spraying to be done, so the back could during
final assembly to assist in keeping it square. Of course that only
works well if the back is a tight fit in the rabbets.

I use a crown stapler to install the back unless it might need to come
off in the future.

Dave

"dnoyeB" wrote in message

Hmm. This would seem to imply that while my box is curing after
glueing, I should get to work on the back. Then I should glue the back
on before I even move the box too much?

im forseeing sitting this thing on its corner in order to get clamps all
around the back. Is that how folks put backs on boxen?

Make, or buy, some 90 degree angle clamp assists. You can make them easily
of the factory edges of sheets of plywood. Clamp two to opposite corners of
your casework during glue-up and they'll keep your assembly square. Leave
them on while you put the back on.

Rockler sells some like this called Clampits:

http://tinyurl.com/8e2on

.... but they are very easy to make by cutting a factory corner at a 45
degree angle, then notching the sides for clamps. Clamp them in the right
place and you can keep them there until you get the back on.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

Bill Waller wrote:

The question:
I am using Titebond II, applied to the inside of the dados and the
ends of the shelf boards. Each of the four shelves fit well and I
used four bar or pipe clamps per shelf on the outside of the uprights
to keep everything together while the glue set. There was a small
amount of "cup" in the uprights that I was able to draw in with the
clamps. The joints are tight enough that I got a little ooze on each
of them. After curing for 24 hours, can I expect the bond to hold, or
will I get a nasty surprise when I remove the clamps?

Uhhh...take the clamps off and see? (Should be fine)


--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

David wrote in
:

I've never seen a 2" dado, so I don't see the relevance, but yes, a
deeper dado would provide additional resistance to racking.

At 2" deep I think you'd be calling it a bridle joint or something
like that :-)

John