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#1
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
First things first: Yes I have googled this group for these answers,
and no this is neither a troll nor flame bait. Many of the opinions I read are from people who don't post here regularly anymore, so I'd love to get some new ones. I am still very new to hand planes, owning only a LV low-angle block and an old Stanley/Bailey which I've found is just too damn beat-up to get to work right. I would like to be able to cut out sanding as much as possible, and I've been told by some that hand-planing will either (a) achieve this with even better results, or (b) simply shorten the time spent sanding. So three questions: 1. What are the opinions of everyone regarding whether or not a well-planed surface will *still* need some sanding? 2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4 roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which does people prefer? 3. The LN #4 also comes with a high-angle frog option to give it a 50-deg pitch. Any thoughts on this? I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an issue. Thanks in advance, and NO FIGHTING!! ;-) |
#2
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
If you want to replace sanding with planing, then consider a scraping plane like the Veritas 112: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,48945 I'm not doing it yet, but I will. Supposedly you can get wood to be like glass by scraping properly. You'd also need a burnisher for the blade too: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,310&p=41070 Look at all your price options with this, including that coupon. You can also learn how to fettle an old plane to a tuned state so it works well, and get it a new blade and chip breaker that is thicker, like a Hock set. Lots of that lesson out on the 'net. -- Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ |
#3
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
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#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
There was an article in Fine woodworking, I believe it was December
issue, that said there is no significant difference between sanding, planing and scraping. I've never done a comparison. Sure cuts a whole lot of time off the job when you knock off planer marks with a nice LN bench plane. My favorite method, whether there is a diffrence I have no idea, is using a hand scraper. I really enjoy using a hand scraper, probably because of its simplicity. I would still sand with a flat sanding pad. That being said if your going to have any kind of plane in the shop a block plane and a #4 are great choices. LN and LV both make great products. I think LV would save you some cash without much. if any, drop in quality. The shiny brass on LN sure looks good. Either way your still going to have to tune that baby up. No plane , untuned, is worth a poop. You might check the Fine woodworking website for the article comparing the methods. Whatever you decide, think FLAT. Thats what your going for , unless your making a chair. Then think NOT BUMPY. Also remember sanding = saw dust = clogged pores= bad finish penetration. Too much information...very complicated hobby...why would anyone want to be a woodworker. My motto...keep it simple or the tool salesmen will screw you. wrote: First things first: Yes I have googled this group for these answers, and no this is neither a troll nor flame bait. Many of the opinions I read are from people who don't post here regularly anymore, so I'd love to get some new ones. I am still very new to hand planes, owning only a LV low-angle block and an old Stanley/Bailey which I've found is just too damn beat-up to get to work right. I would like to be able to cut out sanding as much as possible, and I've been told by some that hand-planing will either (a) achieve this with even better results, or (b) simply shorten the time spent sanding. So three questions: 1. What are the opinions of everyone regarding whether or not a well-planed surface will *still* need some sanding? 2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4 roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which does people prefer? 3. The LN #4 also comes with a high-angle frog option to give it a 50-deg pitch. Any thoughts on this? I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an issue. Thanks in advance, and NO FIGHTING!! ;-) |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
Personally, I would ditch the whole idea of using hand planes for anything
except clean up work. You can buy a good quality 8" jointer and 13" electric planner for the cost of 3 or 4 good quality hand planes. And if you were going to use hand planes exclusively it would probably require more than 4. Good ones are NOT cheap and cheap ones are.....well....cheap. Not to mention you will get more precise and smoother results then hand planes are capable of.......and in about 1/10th the time. If my calculations are correct that is a win win win win situation. Just my two cents Paul wrote in message oups.com... First things first: Yes I have googled this group for these answers, and no this is neither a troll nor flame bait. Many of the opinions I read are from people who don't post here regularly anymore, so I'd love to get some new ones. I am still very new to hand planes, owning only a LV low-angle block and an old Stanley/Bailey which I've found is just too damn beat-up to get to work right. I would like to be able to cut out sanding as much as possible, and I've been told by some that hand-planing will either (a) achieve this with even better results, or (b) simply shorten the time spent sanding. So three questions: 1. What are the opinions of everyone regarding whether or not a well-planed surface will *still* need some sanding? 2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4 roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which does people prefer? 3. The LN #4 also comes with a high-angle frog option to give it a 50-deg pitch. Any thoughts on this? I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an issue. Thanks in advance, and NO FIGHTING!! ;-) |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
Paul Stewart wrote:
Personally, I would ditch the whole idea of using hand planes for anything except clean up work. You can buy a good quality 8" jointer and 13" electric planner for the cost of 3 or 4 good quality hand planes. And if you were going to use hand planes exclusively it would probably require more than 4. Good ones are NOT cheap and cheap ones are.....well....cheap. Not to mention you will get more precise and smoother results then hand planes are capable of.......and in about 1/10th the time. If my calculations are correct that is a win win win win situation. Just my two cents You are forgetting that planers and jointers can leave a lot of tear out that can be minimized by the use of high angle blades and scrapers. A thickness sander will also prevent the tear out you'll get from a planer. Planers and jointers are fine when the wood you are working isn't tear out prone. otherwise... Also, I can get a smoother finish using a scraper than what comes out of a planer. dave |
#7
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
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#8
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
Mark & Juanita wrote:
I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an issue. If you have reversing grain, that is going to be an issue. Setting for very shallow cuts and a tight mouth will help. You may also want to look at scraper planes. And scrapers. You may also find you begin planning your glue-ups to avoid grain reversals (book-match glue-ups exceptedg). -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#9
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
On 28 Dec 2005 19:52:56 -0800, "rickluce" wrote:
.... snip if any, drop in quality. The shiny brass on LN sure looks good. Either way your still going to have to tune that baby up. No plane , untuned, is worth a poop. Gotta disagree there. When I got my LN, the only thing I did was slightly honed the blade, and I really don't think that was all that necessary. The only "tuning" was setting the blade depth. Same with my Knight smoother, Steve ships those suckers sharp and adjusted. I had to slightly adjust the depth because my humidity is different from where the plane was made, but no major tuning was required. .... snip +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |
#10
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
Just to add my comments, a plane needs 'tuning' and a SHARP blade to
make it work correctly. It will then yield a fine finish on most woods. My antique 24" wooden [Beech] plane is a joy to use. Scrapers are also great for finishing odd shapes. Violin backs & tops are finished with various cabinet scrapers. Freshly broken glass makes an instant scraper. My new Veritas scraper plane is also wonderful for difficult grain. The use of all these tools requires knowledge and practice to yield fine work. It's called . . . craftsmanship. Bugs |
#11
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
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#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
wrote in message oups.com... 1. What are the opinions of everyone regarding whether or not a well-planed surface will *still* need some sanding? Nope. Won't unless you decide that the things that others call "hand-friendly" marks have to go. Then scrape or sand as you prefer. 2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4 roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which does people prefer? Tough pick. I'd bypass both and get the low-angle. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=164 Wonderful plane. Does curly stock, softwood, and straight grain with the same ease. 3. The LN #4 also comes with a high-angle frog option to give it a 50-deg pitch. Any thoughts on this? Sure, read what LV has to say about sharpness angles, and buy another blade. Or just buy the LV http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,52515 I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an issue. Reversing grain can be an issue on opposite sides of the same board. Skew and take a fine shaving. If you're going to get a #4, get the LV with the easily adjustable frog and enough space to get a grip. |
#13
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
B a r r y wrote:
Card scrapers are also incredibly useful for fixing finishing mistakes, like drips and runs. They can shave off only the run, while sanding tools will deflect, clog, pill, etc... Just quoting this paragraph to make sure it appears twice for others' edification. Took me a while to come to this realization, but a card scraper is GREAT for that purpose! I'd only add that _very_ light pressure is needed--with a sharp scraper, you are almost letting the weight of the card scraper provide the down force as you pull accross a run. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#14
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
On 29 Dec 2005 03:08:00 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, "Bugs"
quickly quoth: Just to add my comments, a plane needs 'tuning' and a SHARP blade to make it work correctly. It will then yield a fine finish on most woods. EVERY tool, hand or power, needs tuning for best effect. ---------------------------------------------- CAUTION: Driver Legally B l o n d (e) http://www.diversify.com Web Database Development ================================================== ===== |
#15
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:14:00 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Paul Stewart" quickly quoth: Personally, I would ditch the whole idea of using hand planes for anything except clean up work. You can buy a good quality 8" jointer and 13" electric planner for the cost of 3 or 4 good quality hand planes. And if you were going to use hand planes exclusively it would probably require more than 4. Good ones are NOT cheap and cheap ones are.....well....cheap. Not to mention you will get more precise and smoother results then hand planes are capable of.......and in about 1/10th the time. If my calculations are correct that is a win win win win situation. What would you know, you top-posting, normite, heathen bastid? I meant that in a nice way. By 1/10th, you mean 0.0001", right? Most common thicknesses of woods _breathe_ more than 20x that amount every day; more when a cold rainy day turns sunny and hot. While it can be fun to try for, 'taint no reasonableness about it, son. I prefer a cabinetmaker's scraper to a sheet of sandpaper every time. They're less dusty, MUCH cheaper, easier to use, and leave a nicer surface IMHO. ---------------------------------------------- CAUTION: Driver Legally B l o n d (e) http://www.diversify.com Web Database Development ================================================== ===== |
#16
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
"Paul Stewart" wrote:
Personally, I would ditch the whole idea of using hand planes for anything except clean up work. You can buy a good quality 8" jointer and 13" electric planner for the cost of 3 or 4 good quality hand planes. Maybe if you compare harbor freight power tools to LN or better planes. But on a comparable quality basis, the planes would be a lot cheaper. Vintage Stanleys versus Griz or vintage Delta jointer and lunchbox planer. LV or LN planes versus new Delta/Jet/Powermatic. Or Holtey planes versus Oliver/Northfield machinery. And if you were going to use hand planes exclusively it would probably require more than 4. And take a LOT of time for work of any size. Machines are good at what apprentices used to do--the "grunt work" of getting things close to final. Good ones are NOT cheap and cheap ones are.....well....cheap. g Unfortunately true. Not to mention you will get more precise and smoother results then hand planes are capable of.......and in about 1/10th the time. In 1/10th of the time, you can get to pretty smooth, and maybe precise enough. But I certainly cannot get as precise or smooth with machines as I can with comparable quality planes. -- Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently. |
#17
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
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#18
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
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#19
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
If you would like to maximize the visual impact of the grain in your
wood, there is no doubt that hand planning by a skilled craftsman will yield the best result. At the last Wood show in the Detroit area, I asked the gentleman doing the Lie-Neilson demonstration when he thought scraping was appropriate and when he prefferred a planing as a final finish. He was terrific! He spent the next hour and a half demonstrating the difference between a hand planed finish and a hand scraped finish. I would not have believed the result if I had not seen it and touched it. His hand planed finish(highly figured maple) had significantly more depth and more snap to the grain. The scraped finish appeared duller with less depth. He explained that this was because when you use a hand plane you cut through the wood fibers as opposed to scraping them. He spent a long time demonstrating his method of blade sharpening and tuning the plane. he was able to consistantly achieve shavings of 1.5-2 thousanths on an inch. So thin you could see through them. Needless to say I'm a big Lie-Nielson fan. I have a #4 and when I bought it I also bought the high angle frog. I have yet to use it. |
#20
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
wrote in message ups.com... If you would like to maximize the visual impact of the grain in your wood, there is no doubt that hand planning by a skilled craftsman will yield the best result. At the last Wood show in the Detroit area, I asked the gentleman doing the Lie-Neilson demonstration when he thought scraping was appropriate and when he prefferred a planing as a final finish. He was terrific! He spent the next hour and a half demonstrating the difference between a hand planed finish and a hand scraped finish. I would not have believed the result if I had not seen it and touched it. His hand planed finish(highly figured maple) had significantly more depth and more snap to the grain. The scraped finish appeared duller with less depth. He explained that this was because when you use a hand plane you cut through the wood fibers as opposed to scraping them. He spent a long time demonstrating his method of blade sharpening and tuning the plane. he was able to consistantly achieve shavings of 1.5-2 thousanths on an inch. So thin you could see through them. Needless to say I'm a big Lie-Nielson fan. I have a #4 and when I bought it I also bought the high angle frog. I have yet to use it. He was doing his sales pitch. The fact that the surface was burnished by sole of the plane as opposed to merely cut - it is cutting - by the scraper made the difference. Scrape a surface, then burnish it with a nice piece of hardwood and you'll see. |
#21
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4 roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which does people prefer? Tough pick. I'd bypass both and get the low-angle. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=164 Wonderful plane. Does curly stock, softwood, and straight grain with the same ease. I was struck by the same thing - are you discounting the low angle plane for any particular reason? Seem like changing the blade to change the cut is easier than changing the frog. |
#22
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
alexy said:
B a r r y wrote: Card scrapers are also incredibly useful for fixing finishing mistakes, like drips and runs. They can shave off only the run, while sanding tools will deflect, clog, pill, etc... Just quoting this paragraph to make sure it appears twice for others' edification. Took me a while to come to this realization, but a card scraper is GREAT for that purpose! I'd only add that _very_ light pressure is needed--with a sharp scraper, you are almost letting the weight of the card scraper provide the down force as you pull accross a run. I'll quote it again. Excepting sandpaper, a card scraper is one of the first "neander" finishing tools I obtained - that and a good file and HSS burnishing rod. Properly prepared, a scraper is an amazing thing. The hook can be adapted somewhat to deal with varying conditions. And unlike sandpaper, it doesn't dig into soft spots or glaze over glue drips. But (to me) the best thing is the quite hiss of the tool and the relative lack of dust flying through the air and lungs. And while my thumbs may get cramped, it beats your whole hand vibrating for an hour after a "power sanding" session. Even a well set up $10 palm plane can do some impressive things. (I wouldn't know about high-dollar planes, 'cause I can't afford 'em.) And as much as I love and depend on power planers and jointers, there is no way they leave a surface "ready to finish". The characteristic pattern of "cuts-per-inch" leaves a telltale indicator behind. FWIW, Greg G. |
#23
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
I'm inclined to believe that the demo was rigged. A proprly sharpened
scraper cuts chips, same as a plane. If he was getting dust (bet he was), something was not right. wrote in message ups.com... If you would like to maximize the visual impact of the grain in your wood, there is no doubt that hand planning by a skilled craftsman will yield the best result. At the last Wood show in the Detroit area, I asked the gentleman doing the Lie-Neilson demonstration when he thought scraping was appropriate and when he prefferred a planing as a final finish. He was terrific! He spent the next hour and a half demonstrating the difference between a hand planed finish and a hand scraped finish. I would not have believed the result if I had not seen it and touched it. His hand planed finish(highly figured maple) had significantly more depth and more snap to the grain. The scraped finish appeared duller with less depth. He explained that this was because when you use a hand plane you cut through the wood fibers as opposed to scraping them. He spent a long time demonstrating his method of blade sharpening and tuning the plane. he was able to consistantly achieve shavings of 1.5-2 thousanths on an inch. So thin you could see through them. Needless to say I'm a big Lie-Nielson fan. I have a #4 and when I bought it I also bought the high angle frog. I have yet to use it. |
#24
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
You can eliminate quite a bit of sanding. but curves and such are
easier to sand. but depending on the woods one plane may not do it all. you may need higher angled planes. plus the key thing is your ability to tune and use the plane. this is the biggest key factor in the whole idea. Knight-Toolworks http://www.knight-toolworks.com affordable handmade wooden planes |
#25
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
"Steve knight" wrote in message ... You can eliminate quite a bit of sanding. but curves and such are easier to sand. Where I can fit a spokeshave does not see sanding. |
#26
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
Yes they can. HOWEVER you need to have a very light cut on the blade,
have cambered the blade so as to not leave any plane tracks. Took a handtool class with Rob Cosman in Canada last summer. The finish off his pieces from the LN 5 1/2 he used was perfect. If you APPLY a finish, the difference becomes moot. Just completed and ready to finish a pair of floating shelves, I handplaned and scraped them for a bit, and then took a 1/4 sheet sander to them to fix my own errors of not cambering my blade enough. The amount of sanding was mere minutes total and I likely over did the time necessary. With the planed/scrapped surfaces, there was no need to sand out knicks or tearout from the planer. Just remove a couple of raised ridges from a knicked planer knife. |
#27
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
arw01 wrote: Yes they can. HOWEVER you need to have a very light cut on the blade, have cambered the blade so as to not leave any plane tracks. Took a handtool class with Rob Cosman in Canada last summer. The finish off his pieces from the LN 5 1/2 he used was perfect. If you APPLY a finish, the difference becomes moot. Just completed and ready to finish a pair of floating shelves, I handplaned and scraped them for a bit, and then took a 1/4 sheet sander to them to fix my own errors of not cambering my blade enough. The amount of sanding was mere minutes total and I likely over did the time necessary. With the planed/scrapped surfaces, there was no need to sand out knicks or tearout from the planer. Just remove a couple of raised ridges from a knicked planer knife. May I ask: How are you planning to attach the shelves to the wall? |
#28
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Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?
May i ask, how are you planning to attach the shelves to the wall?
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