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  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.woodworking
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

First things first: Yes I have googled this group for these answers,
and no this is neither a troll nor flame bait. Many of the opinions I
read are from people who don't post here regularly anymore, so I'd love
to get some new ones.

I am still very new to hand planes, owning only a LV low-angle block
and an old Stanley/Bailey which I've found is just too damn beat-up to
get to work right.

I would like to be able to cut out sanding as much as possible, and
I've been told by some that hand-planing will either (a) achieve this
with even better results, or (b) simply shorten the time spent sanding.

So three questions:

1. What are the opinions of everyone regarding whether or not a
well-planed surface will *still* need some sanding?

2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4
roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which
does people prefer?

3. The LN #4 also comes with a high-angle frog option to give it a
50-deg pitch. Any thoughts on this?

I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the
tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an
issue.

Thanks in advance, and NO FIGHTING!! ;-)

  #2   Report Post  
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AAvK
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?


If you want to replace sanding with planing, then consider a scraping plane like the
Veritas 112:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,48945
I'm not doing it yet, but I will. Supposedly you can get wood to be like glass by
scraping properly. You'd also need a burnisher for the blade too:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,310&p=41070
Look at all your price options with this, including that coupon.

You can also learn how to fettle an old plane to a tuned state so it works well, and
get it a new blade and chip breaker that is thicker, like a Hock set. Lots of that lesson
out on the 'net.

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/


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Mark & Juanita
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

On 28 Dec 2005 16:46:00 -0800, wrote:

First things first: Yes I have googled this group for these answers,
and no this is neither a troll nor flame bait. Many of the opinions I
read are from people who don't post here regularly anymore, so I'd love
to get some new ones.

I am still very new to hand planes, owning only a LV low-angle block
and an old Stanley/Bailey which I've found is just too damn beat-up to
get to work right.

I would like to be able to cut out sanding as much as possible, and
I've been told by some that hand-planing will either (a) achieve this
with even better results, or (b) simply shorten the time spent sanding.

So three questions:

1. What are the opinions of everyone regarding whether or not a
well-planed surface will *still* need some sanding?


Depends on the wood and grain. Some wood just will not plane well and
even causes problems for scrapers. Also, I've found that I still need to
sand corners where rail meets stile and the grain directions are
orthogonal. However, I have eliminated a significant amount of sanding
from my projects. IMO, planing and scraping actually go faster than
sanding because you aren't having to cycle through grits. In addition, the
wood really does look nicer, it doesn't get "muddied" up by the sanding
swarf. However, I have yet to get the same very smooth feel one gets from
sanding.

2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4
roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which
does people prefer?


That probably verges on a religious or political argument as few people
actually have both planes. I really like my #4 Lie Nielsen, others have
said good things about the LV #4.

3. The LN #4 also comes with a high-angle frog option to give it a
50-deg pitch. Any thoughts on this?


I looked at both, consider what you plan to do with it. I settled on the
high angle frog because I was mostly looking for something that would give
good results in difficult grains.


I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the
tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an
issue.


If you have reversing grain, that is going to be an issue. Setting for
very shallow cuts and a tight mouth will help. You may also want to look
at scraper planes. And scrapers.


Thanks in advance, and NO FIGHTING!! ;-)



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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rickluce
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

There was an article in Fine woodworking, I believe it was December
issue, that said there is no significant difference between sanding,
planing and scraping. I've never done a comparison. Sure cuts a whole
lot of time off the job when you knock off planer marks with a nice LN
bench plane. My favorite method, whether there is a diffrence I have no
idea, is using a hand scraper. I really enjoy using a hand scraper,
probably because of its simplicity. I would still sand with a flat
sanding pad. That being said if your going to have any kind of plane
in the shop a block plane and a #4 are great choices. LN and LV both
make great products. I think LV would save you some cash without much.
if any, drop in quality. The shiny brass on LN sure looks good. Either
way your still going to have to tune that baby up. No plane , untuned,
is worth a poop. You might check the Fine woodworking website for the
article comparing the methods. Whatever you decide, think FLAT. Thats
what your going for , unless your making a chair. Then think NOT BUMPY.
Also remember sanding = saw dust = clogged pores= bad finish
penetration. Too much information...very complicated hobby...why would
anyone want to be a woodworker. My motto...keep it simple or the tool
salesmen will screw you.
wrote:
First things first: Yes I have googled this group for these answers,
and no this is neither a troll nor flame bait. Many of the opinions I
read are from people who don't post here regularly anymore, so I'd love
to get some new ones.

I am still very new to hand planes, owning only a LV low-angle block
and an old Stanley/Bailey which I've found is just too damn beat-up to
get to work right.

I would like to be able to cut out sanding as much as possible, and
I've been told by some that hand-planing will either (a) achieve this
with even better results, or (b) simply shorten the time spent sanding.

So three questions:

1. What are the opinions of everyone regarding whether or not a
well-planed surface will *still* need some sanding?

2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4
roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which
does people prefer?

3. The LN #4 also comes with a high-angle frog option to give it a
50-deg pitch. Any thoughts on this?

I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the
tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an
issue.

Thanks in advance, and NO FIGHTING!! ;-)


  #5   Report Post  
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Paul Stewart
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

Personally, I would ditch the whole idea of using hand planes for anything
except clean up work. You can buy a good quality 8" jointer and 13" electric
planner for the cost of 3 or 4 good quality hand planes. And if you were
going to use hand planes exclusively it would probably require more than 4.
Good ones are NOT cheap and cheap ones are.....well....cheap. Not to mention
you will get more precise and smoother results then hand planes are capable
of.......and in about 1/10th the time. If my calculations are correct that
is a win win win win situation.



Just my two cents



Paul

wrote in message
oups.com...
First things first: Yes I have googled this group for these answers,
and no this is neither a troll nor flame bait. Many of the opinions I
read are from people who don't post here regularly anymore, so I'd love
to get some new ones.

I am still very new to hand planes, owning only a LV low-angle block
and an old Stanley/Bailey which I've found is just too damn beat-up to
get to work right.

I would like to be able to cut out sanding as much as possible, and
I've been told by some that hand-planing will either (a) achieve this
with even better results, or (b) simply shorten the time spent sanding.

So three questions:

1. What are the opinions of everyone regarding whether or not a
well-planed surface will *still* need some sanding?

2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4
roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which
does people prefer?

3. The LN #4 also comes with a high-angle frog option to give it a
50-deg pitch. Any thoughts on this?

I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the
tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an
issue.

Thanks in advance, and NO FIGHTING!! ;-)





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David
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

Paul Stewart wrote:

Personally, I would ditch the whole idea of using hand planes for anything
except clean up work. You can buy a good quality 8" jointer and 13" electric
planner for the cost of 3 or 4 good quality hand planes. And if you were
going to use hand planes exclusively it would probably require more than 4.
Good ones are NOT cheap and cheap ones are.....well....cheap. Not to mention
you will get more precise and smoother results then hand planes are capable
of.......and in about 1/10th the time. If my calculations are correct that
is a win win win win situation.



Just my two cents




You are forgetting that planers and jointers can leave a lot of tear out
that can be minimized by the use of high angle blades and scrapers. A
thickness sander will also prevent the tear out you'll get from a
planer. Planers and jointers are fine when the wood you are working
isn't tear out prone. otherwise...

Also, I can get a smoother finish using a scraper than what comes out of
a planer.

dave
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?


wrote:

I am still very new to hand planes, owning only a LV low-angle block
and an old Stanley/Bailey which I've found is just too damn beat-up to
get to work right.

I would like to be able to cut out sanding as much as possible, and
I've been told by some that hand-planing will either (a) achieve this
with even better results, or (b) simply shorten the time spent sanding.

I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the
tables, I inevitably have glue-ups,


****so reversing grain could be an issue.****

Thanks in advance, and NO FIGHTING!! ;-)


I personally would not use the plane you have now. A new plane would be
necessary for the application. BUT, a scraper is what you want for that
finish you seek. My experience has been that reversing grain is hardly
ever good when using a handplane. A scraper on the other hand, is not
as picky when the grain is wild. You still might have a rare moment
when a scraper will hang up on a snipe (soft wood in a burly like knot
situation). Curse heavily and move on. One thing I don't ever have luck
with is trying to sand spots after scraping. Do one or the other, or
after all of that planing and scraping, you will have to sand it all to
blend it all in.

Planing and scraping is an art. You won't have instantly perfect
results the first time you try. Practice will be necessary to aquire
the feel, the instinct to know when it's all coming together. And to
recognize when it's all about to go south.

Tom in KY, flying my plane blind. Feel it Man.

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alexy
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

Mark & Juanita wrote:


I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the
tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an
issue.


If you have reversing grain, that is going to be an issue. Setting for
very shallow cuts and a tight mouth will help. You may also want to look
at scraper planes. And scrapers.


You may also find you begin planning your glue-ups to avoid grain
reversals (book-match glue-ups exceptedg).
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
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Mark & Juanita
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

On 28 Dec 2005 19:52:56 -0800, "rickluce" wrote:

.... snip
if any, drop in quality. The shiny brass on LN sure looks good. Either
way your still going to have to tune that baby up. No plane , untuned,
is worth a poop.


Gotta disagree there. When I got my LN, the only thing I did was
slightly honed the blade, and I really don't think that was all that
necessary. The only "tuning" was setting the blade depth. Same with my
Knight smoother, Steve ships those suckers sharp and adjusted. I had to
slightly adjust the depth because my humidity is different from where the
plane was made, but no major tuning was required.

.... snip


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  #10   Report Post  
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Bugs
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

Just to add my comments, a plane needs 'tuning' and a SHARP blade to
make it work correctly. It will then yield a fine finish on most woods.
My antique 24" wooden [Beech] plane is a joy to use.
Scrapers are also great for finishing odd shapes. Violin backs & tops
are finished with various cabinet scrapers. Freshly broken glass makes
an instant scraper. My new Veritas scraper plane is also wonderful for
difficult grain.
The use of all these tools requires knowledge and practice to yield
fine work. It's called . . . craftsmanship.
Bugs



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George
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?


wrote in message
oups.com...

1. What are the opinions of everyone regarding whether or not a
well-planed surface will *still* need some sanding?


Nope. Won't unless you decide that the things that others call
"hand-friendly" marks have to go. Then scrape or sand as you prefer.

2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4
roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which
does people prefer?


Tough pick. I'd bypass both and get the low-angle.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=164 Wonderful plane. Does curly
stock, softwood, and straight grain with the same ease.

3. The LN #4 also comes with a high-angle frog option to give it a
50-deg pitch. Any thoughts on this?


Sure, read what LV has to say about sharpness angles, and buy another blade.
Or just buy the LV
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,52515

I am building mostly tables and case goods, usually cherry. With the
tables, I inevitably have glue-ups, so reversing grain could be an
issue.


Reversing grain can be an issue on opposite sides of the same board. Skew
and take a fine shaving.

If you're going to get a #4, get the LV with the easily adjustable frog and
enough space to get a grip.


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alexy
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

B a r r y wrote:


Card scrapers are also incredibly useful for fixing finishing mistakes,
like drips and runs. They can shave off only the run, while sanding
tools will deflect, clog, pill, etc...


Just quoting this paragraph to make sure it appears twice for others'
edification. Took me a while to come to this realization, but a card
scraper is GREAT for that purpose! I'd only add that _very_ light
pressure is needed--with a sharp scraper, you are almost letting the
weight of the card scraper provide the down force as you pull accross
a run.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
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Larry Jaques
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

On 29 Dec 2005 03:08:00 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, "Bugs"
quickly quoth:

Just to add my comments, a plane needs 'tuning' and a SHARP blade to
make it work correctly. It will then yield a fine finish on most woods.


EVERY tool, hand or power, needs tuning for best effect.


----------------------------------------------
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http://www.diversify.com Web Database Development
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Larry Jaques
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:14:00 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Paul Stewart" quickly quoth:

Personally, I would ditch the whole idea of using hand planes for anything
except clean up work. You can buy a good quality 8" jointer and 13" electric
planner for the cost of 3 or 4 good quality hand planes. And if you were
going to use hand planes exclusively it would probably require more than 4.
Good ones are NOT cheap and cheap ones are.....well....cheap. Not to mention
you will get more precise and smoother results then hand planes are capable
of.......and in about 1/10th the time. If my calculations are correct that
is a win win win win situation.


What would you know, you top-posting, normite, heathen bastid?
I meant that in a nice way.

By 1/10th, you mean 0.0001", right? Most common thicknesses of woods
_breathe_ more than 20x that amount every day; more when a cold rainy
day turns sunny and hot. While it can be fun to try for, 'taint no
reasonableness about it, son.

I prefer a cabinetmaker's scraper to a sheet of sandpaper every time.
They're less dusty, MUCH cheaper, easier to use, and leave a nicer
surface IMHO.


----------------------------------------------
CAUTION: Driver Legally B l o n d (e)
http://www.diversify.com Web Database Development
================================================== =====


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alexy
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

"Paul Stewart" wrote:

Personally, I would ditch the whole idea of using hand planes for anything
except clean up work. You can buy a good quality 8" jointer and 13" electric
planner for the cost of 3 or 4 good quality hand planes.

Maybe if you compare harbor freight power tools to LN or better
planes. But on a comparable quality basis, the planes would be a lot
cheaper. Vintage Stanleys versus Griz or vintage Delta jointer and
lunchbox planer. LV or LN planes versus new Delta/Jet/Powermatic. Or
Holtey planes versus Oliver/Northfield machinery.

And if you were
going to use hand planes exclusively it would probably require more than 4.

And take a LOT of time for work of any size. Machines are good at what
apprentices used to do--the "grunt work" of getting things close to
final.

Good ones are NOT cheap and cheap ones are.....well....cheap.

g Unfortunately true.

Not to mention
you will get more precise and smoother results then hand planes are capable
of.......and in about 1/10th the time.

In 1/10th of the time, you can get to pretty smooth, and maybe precise
enough. But I certainly cannot get as precise or smooth with machines
as I can with comparable quality planes.

--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
  #19   Report Post  
Posted to rec.woodworking
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

If you would like to maximize the visual impact of the grain in your
wood, there is no doubt that hand planning by a skilled craftsman will
yield the best result. At the last Wood show in the Detroit area, I
asked the gentleman doing the Lie-Neilson demonstration when he thought
scraping was appropriate and when he prefferred a planing as a final
finish. He was terrific! He spent the next hour and a half
demonstrating the difference between a hand planed finish and a hand
scraped finish. I would not have believed the result if I had not seen
it and touched it. His hand planed finish(highly figured maple) had
significantly more depth and more snap to the grain. The scraped
finish appeared duller with less depth. He explained that this was
because when you use a hand plane you cut through the wood fibers as
opposed to scraping them. He spent a long time demonstrating his
method of blade sharpening and tuning the plane. he was able to
consistantly achieve shavings of 1.5-2 thousanths on an inch. So thin
you could see through them. Needless to say I'm a big Lie-Nielson fan.
I have a #4 and when I bought it I also bought the high angle frog. I
have yet to use it.

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George
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?


wrote in message
ups.com...
If you would like to maximize the visual impact of the grain in your
wood, there is no doubt that hand planning by a skilled craftsman will
yield the best result. At the last Wood show in the Detroit area, I
asked the gentleman doing the Lie-Neilson demonstration when he thought
scraping was appropriate and when he prefferred a planing as a final
finish. He was terrific! He spent the next hour and a half
demonstrating the difference between a hand planed finish and a hand
scraped finish. I would not have believed the result if I had not seen
it and touched it. His hand planed finish(highly figured maple) had
significantly more depth and more snap to the grain. The scraped
finish appeared duller with less depth. He explained that this was
because when you use a hand plane you cut through the wood fibers as
opposed to scraping them. He spent a long time demonstrating his
method of blade sharpening and tuning the plane. he was able to
consistantly achieve shavings of 1.5-2 thousanths on an inch. So thin
you could see through them. Needless to say I'm a big Lie-Nielson fan.
I have a #4 and when I bought it I also bought the high angle frog. I
have yet to use it.


He was doing his sales pitch. The fact that the surface was burnished by
sole of the plane as opposed to merely cut - it is cutting - by the scraper
made the difference. Scrape a surface, then burnish it with a nice piece of
hardwood and you'll see.




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Gordon Airporte
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?


2. I have a 25%-off coupon at Woodcraft, which would make a LN #4
roughly the same price as a LV #4. So price now being no object, which
does people prefer?


Tough pick. I'd bypass both and get the low-angle.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=164 Wonderful plane. Does curly
stock, softwood, and straight grain with the same ease.


I was struck by the same thing - are you discounting the low angle plane
for any particular reason? Seem like changing the blade to change the
cut is easier than changing the frog.

  #22   Report Post  
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Greg G.
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

alexy said:

B a r r y wrote:


Card scrapers are also incredibly useful for fixing finishing mistakes,
like drips and runs. They can shave off only the run, while sanding
tools will deflect, clog, pill, etc...


Just quoting this paragraph to make sure it appears twice for others'
edification. Took me a while to come to this realization, but a card
scraper is GREAT for that purpose! I'd only add that _very_ light
pressure is needed--with a sharp scraper, you are almost letting the
weight of the card scraper provide the down force as you pull accross
a run.


I'll quote it again. Excepting sandpaper, a card scraper is one of the
first "neander" finishing tools I obtained - that and a good file and
HSS burnishing rod. Properly prepared, a scraper is an amazing thing.
The hook can be adapted somewhat to deal with varying conditions.

And unlike sandpaper, it doesn't dig into soft spots or glaze over
glue drips. But (to me) the best thing is the quite hiss of the tool
and the relative lack of dust flying through the air and lungs. And
while my thumbs may get cramped, it beats your whole hand vibrating
for an hour after a "power sanding" session.

Even a well set up $10 palm plane can do some impressive things.
(I wouldn't know about high-dollar planes, 'cause I can't afford 'em.)

And as much as I love and depend on power planers and jointers, there
is no way they leave a surface "ready to finish". The characteristic
pattern of "cuts-per-inch" leaves a telltale indicator behind.

FWIW,

Greg G.
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CW
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

I'm inclined to believe that the demo was rigged. A proprly sharpened
scraper cuts chips, same as a plane. If he was getting dust (bet he was),
something was not right.

wrote in message
ups.com...
If you would like to maximize the visual impact of the grain in your
wood, there is no doubt that hand planning by a skilled craftsman will
yield the best result. At the last Wood show in the Detroit area, I
asked the gentleman doing the Lie-Neilson demonstration when he thought
scraping was appropriate and when he prefferred a planing as a final
finish. He was terrific! He spent the next hour and a half
demonstrating the difference between a hand planed finish and a hand
scraped finish. I would not have believed the result if I had not seen
it and touched it. His hand planed finish(highly figured maple) had
significantly more depth and more snap to the grain. The scraped
finish appeared duller with less depth. He explained that this was
because when you use a hand plane you cut through the wood fibers as
opposed to scraping them. He spent a long time demonstrating his
method of blade sharpening and tuning the plane. he was able to
consistantly achieve shavings of 1.5-2 thousanths on an inch. So thin
you could see through them. Needless to say I'm a big Lie-Nielson fan.
I have a #4 and when I bought it I also bought the high angle frog. I
have yet to use it.



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Steve knight
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

You can eliminate quite a bit of sanding. but curves and such are
easier to sand. but depending on the woods one plane may not do it
all. you may need higher angled planes. plus the key thing is your
ability to tune and use the plane. this is the biggest key factor in
the whole idea.
Knight-Toolworks
http://www.knight-toolworks.com
affordable handmade wooden planes
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George
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?


"Steve knight" wrote in message
...
You can eliminate quite a bit of sanding. but curves and such are
easier to sand.


Where I can fit a spokeshave does not see sanding.




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arw01
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

Yes they can. HOWEVER you need to have a very light cut on the blade,
have cambered the blade so as to not leave any plane tracks.

Took a handtool class with Rob Cosman in Canada last summer. The
finish off his pieces from the LN 5 1/2 he used was perfect. If you
APPLY a finish, the difference becomes moot.

Just completed and ready to finish a pair of floating shelves, I
handplaned and scraped them for a bit, and then took a 1/4 sheet sander
to them to fix my own errors of not cambering my blade enough. The
amount of sanding was mere minutes total and I likely over did the time
necessary. With the planed/scrapped surfaces, there was no need to
sand out knicks or tearout from the planer. Just remove a couple of
raised ridges from a knicked planer knife.

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lizarddude
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?


arw01 wrote:
Yes they can. HOWEVER you need to have a very light cut on the blade,
have cambered the blade so as to not leave any plane tracks.

Took a handtool class with Rob Cosman in Canada last summer. The
finish off his pieces from the LN 5 1/2 he used was perfect. If you
APPLY a finish, the difference becomes moot.

Just completed and ready to finish a pair of floating shelves, I
handplaned and scraped them for a bit, and then took a 1/4 sheet sander
to them to fix my own errors of not cambering my blade enough. The
amount of sanding was mere minutes total and I likely over did the time
necessary. With the planed/scrapped surfaces, there was no need to
sand out knicks or tearout from the planer. Just remove a couple of
raised ridges from a knicked planer knife.


May I ask: How are you planning to attach the shelves to the wall?

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lizarddude
 
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Default Can a plane *really* replace sanding, and which one?

May i ask, how are you planning to attach the shelves to the wall?

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