Hi all,

I've been working with wood slowing over the last couple years. Most of
the work I have done was with screws for joinery and very poor
finishing techniques such as no sanding and staining only.

Last summer I worked on a new albeit small entertainment stand. I
sanded and poly'd the finish with sanding after each coat followed by
wax. It turned out fairly nice, but not showroom quality.

So I have tons of questions(but keep in mind I only have Home Depot as
my supplier):

1. Which is preferable: dowels or biscuits for joining? Plus glue
correct?

2. How do I get a mirror finish with stain or paint?

I use pine because it's so cheap and easily available. My technique
involves sanding with 100 grit and then with something around 200 grit
or higher to get the wood to feel like silk, next I apply a wood
conditioner (I use all minwax products I should add), then after the
recommended wait time I apply stain (regular stain not the stain and
poly together mix), I wipe that down after I get the tone I like and
wait 24 hours to dry. Then I apply the Minwax Polyurethane with a foam
brush and dry for 24 hours, sometimes, I will admit, that spots are
still tacky to the touch. I sand this with steel wool (I think it's 00
might be 000), and apply another coat. I do this 3 times then apply the
Minwax paste wax following the directions. Now after all this work when
you look at the piece in the sun you can still see very fine/small
valleys in the piece.

Should I be waiting longer between coats? I'm very impatient should I
use the Minwax Polycrylic instead? Also what about paint? I want to
learn how to get a painted finished that looks like is was baked on
like the finish on a car.

3. How do the other finishing products work? All the oils for example,
I've only used the above poly and stain, plus I used the One Step a few
times ( I know some people don't like the One Step, but I thought the
finish was much richer and had more depth, but still had the same
problems "little valleys."

4. What is proper technique for cleaning brushes? I have stayed away
from them and wonder if this is part of my problem. I use rags for
stain and foam brushes for the poly and pitch them after each use.

5. On to joinery, I've been looking at biscuit cutters and I understand
how cuts are made in the edge of boards (say a shelf of a book shelf)
but how do you cut biscuits in say the upright parts of the bookshelf?
Does the metal "guide" thing on a biscuit cutter rotate 90 degrees up
so the front of the cutter is almost completely flush with the board
face?

I'm making a new dining room table that I want to have a very thick
top. Which one of these is more sound:

Using a planer on 2x10's and jointing them with biscuits to make the
top OR using 2x4's on a jointer then jointing them with biscuits?

I own most of the woodworkers tools although they were passed on to me
from my grandfather, the one thing I don't own is a planer or biscuit
cutter. I'm getting the biscuit cutter for Christmas and will probably
buy the planar in the spring if I can afford it (moneys tight as I'm in
college)

Eventually I want to get into making solid front doors:

6. What types of wood are these usually made from? Oak? How are they
jointed together? Same as above with biscuits and glue?

7. Glueing-- What do you use to remove the excess overflow? I tried
just a rag but the glue doesn't completely come away, and then screws
up the evenness of the stain being applied after.

Lastly,

8. I did some painting over wood and eventually some spots started to
"leak" through it was white paint and these spots were turning yellow.
Any cure for this?

Thanks in advance,

Matt

snipe of a long post........
"Matt S" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hi all,

I've been working with wood slowing over the last couple years. Most of
the work I have done was with screws for joinery and very poor
finishing techniques such as no sanding and staining only.


Matt,

I think you may have asked to many questions in a single post to get a good
response. Perhaps someone will take the time to address each one but since
the questions are all over the place, the best I'll offer for now is - find
your local library and start reading.

You may want to consider grouping your questions in different posts and see
how that approach works.

Bob S.

"Matt S" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hi all,

I've been working with wood slowing over the last couple years. Most of
the work I have done was with screws for joinery and very poor
finishing techniques such as no sanding and staining only.

Last summer I worked on a new albeit small entertainment stand. I
sanded and poly'd the finish with sanding after each coat followed by
wax. It turned out fairly nice, but not showroom quality.

So I have tons of questions(but keep in mind I only have Home Depot as
my supplier):

Check out the mail order suppliers of everything from dowel buttons to S4S
hardwood, including
about every tool ever imagined.

1. Which is preferable: dowels or biscuits for joining? Plus glue
correct?

Biscuits are easier.

2. How do I get a mirror finish with stain or paint?

I use pine because it's so cheap and easily available. My technique
involves sanding with 100 grit and then with something around 200 grit
or higher to get the wood to feel like silk, next I apply a wood
conditioner (I use all minwax products I should add), then after the
recommended wait time I apply stain (regular stain not the stain and
poly together mix), I wipe that down after I get the tone I like and
wait 24 hours to dry. Then I apply the Minwax Polyurethane with a foam
brush and dry for 24 hours, sometimes, I will admit, that spots are
still tacky to the touch. I sand this with steel wool (I think it's 00
might be 000), and apply another coat. I do this 3 times then apply the
Minwax paste wax following the directions. Now after all this work when
you look at the piece in the sun you can still see very fine/small
valleys in the piece.

Drop the sometimes for 24 hours, and add 24 if you want to be really sure.
Also,
check temperatures in the finishing room. Never sand or steel wool when the
preceding
coat is still tacky. And don't use OO or OOO steel wool with finish coats
unless
you're removing them. Spring for OOOO.

Should I be waiting longer between coats? I'm very impatient should I
use the Minwax Polycrylic instead? Also what about paint? I want to
learn how to get a painted finished that looks like is was baked on
like the finish on a car.

You want a baked on enamel/acrylic/lacquer finish, you need much more
experience,
and a lot more reading than can be done here.

3. How do the other finishing products work? All the oils for example,
I've only used the above poly and stain, plus I used the One Step a few
times ( I know some people don't like the One Step, but I thought the
finish was much richer and had more depth, but still had the same
problems "little valleys."

Try them. And follow directions.

4. What is proper technique for cleaning brushes? I have stayed away
from them and wonder if this is part of my problem. I use rags for
stain and foam brushes for the poly and pitch them after each use.

Good brushes help.

5. On to joinery, I've been looking at biscuit cutters and I understand
how cuts are made in the edge of boards (say a shelf of a book shelf)
but how do you cut biscuits in say the upright parts of the bookshelf?
Does the metal "guide" thing on a biscuit cutter rotate 90 degrees up
so the front of the cutter is almost completely flush with the board
face?

RTFM.

I'm making a new dining room table that I want to have a very thick
top. Which one of these is more sound:

Using a planer on 2x10's and jointing them with biscuits to make the
top OR using 2x4's on a jointer then jointing them with biscuits?

2x4s, but with construction grade pine, ain't nothing sound. It is too wet.

I own most of the woodworkers tools although they were passed on to me
from my grandfather, the one thing I don't own is a planer or biscuit
cutter. I'm getting the biscuit cutter for Christmas and will probably
buy the planar in the spring if I can afford it (moneys tight as I'm in
college)

Eventually I want to get into making solid front doors:

6. What types of wood are these usually made from? Oak? How are they
jointed together? Same as above with biscuits and glue?

Oak. Mahogany. You name it. Cheap ones use biscuits. M&T for the good ones.


7. Glueing-- What do you use to remove the excess overflow? I tried
just a rag but the glue doesn't completely come away, and then screws
up the evenness of the stain being applied after.

Don't let it overflow. Learn to control glue application. You're not
whitewashing
a barn with the stuff.

Lastly,

8. I did some painting over wood and eventually some spots started to
"leak" through it was white paint and these spots were turning yellow.
Any cure for this?

Sap/resin staining. Yeah. Coat the wood with shellac before painting. Likely
what you're
getting is a result of using construction grade lumber.

Get away from pine. If you can't find anything else, use poplar...tulip
poplar is lower
in cost in most places than is pine, but you won't believe that from looking
at big box wood
stocks. Even paying shipping, you'll save major money buying from a
reputable mill or dealer.

Enjoy.

..

2. How do I get a mirror finish with stain or paint?

Now after all this work when
you look at the piece in the sun you can still see very fine/small
valleys in the piece.

I assume those little valleys you refer to are the wood grain. You
either need to "fill the grain", there are products for this. Grain
fillers are a slurry of very fine particles, that you rub into the
wood. The fine particles fill the little valleys. Then you can apply a
finish.

To get a really flat. glossy finish you will need to "rub out" the
finish. A lot of elbow grease and increasingly finer and finer
abrasives. The supper high gloss requires automative wet or dry
sandpapers (1000+ grit) and rubbing and polishing compounds

Go to barnes and nobles, buy a cup of coffee, and read some of the
books on finishing. There are a couple of good comprehensive books. I
think an author named Jewitt has written a couple.


8. I did some painting over wood and eventually some spots started to
"leak" through it was white paint and these spots were turning yellow.
Any cure for this?

Sound like those are the knots. You need to seal them some how. Home
depot has several product. One is called "Kilz"

BTW, you may only have a home depot nearby, but there are tons of
online sources for finishing and tools. Woodcraft, and lee valley are
popular

Mitch

Thanks in advance,

Matt

Matt S wrote:

Then I apply the Minwax Polyurethane with a foam
brush and dry for 24 hours, sometimes, I will admit, that spots are
still tacky to the touch. I sand this with steel wool (I think it's 00
might be 000), and apply another coat. I do this 3 times then apply the

Minwax paste wax following the directions.

Tacky after 24 hours almost always means green wood. To be blunt, you
are screwed. I use Minwax poly on lathe tool handles, and if it is
sticky for a couple of weeks, then I know the wood was a lot greener
than I thought it was. When the wood is no longer sticky and the
MinWax had dried, the wood is ready for a second coat. But that is a
task for my old poly on tool handles. Not furniture.

You only distress the finish of your work when you try to sand wet
spots. Even if you can mash enough catalysed powder from the
surrounding areas of finish into the area to make it seem like it had
"dried" it has not cured. There really aren't any shortcuts to a good
finish, and certainly lack of patience or improper application (over
green wood) will keep you from your goal.

Poly is not well liked for mirror finishes. It is plastic, and it is a
film finish. So when you put on more than one coat, you are putting on
multiple layers of plastic. As plastic, it may not be hard enough to
make into a mirror finish. I have seen lots of shiny work out there
that has been finshed with multiple coats of poly, but no "mirror"
finish like you would find on a piano.

I have made some custom desks for a client that insisted on poly as
they were afraid of water/ink/coffee problems that usually come with
desks. I used Minwax thinned to 80% and applied with a bristle pad.
After 5 coats (one every 24 hours), it really looked great. Of course,
I had put on a home made conditioner first to highlight the grain and
to seal the surface so I wouldn't be dealing with high and low spots of
absorbtion to screw up the finish. After final finish I let is sit for
a week before handling.

I am surprised no one here has said this, but maybe later on in this
thread. There aren't any shortcuts to good woodwork, and the finishing
aspect is no exception. But I think finishing is where a many screw
up, since they consider themselves "woodworkers", not "painters" or
"finishers".

A painter that worked for me many years ago told me "the finish is only
as good as the prep". That has driven my sanding/prep regimen ever
since.

I agree with the "go to the library" and "go to B&N" advice. I have
bought almost all of my finishing books at our local half priced
outlet. Right now hobby woodworking is more popular than ever, and
with the advent of the Asian micropress, there are more books out there
than you could imagine that cover everything imaginable.

One last thing, as advised SEARCH this group for info before taking the
time to post. If the questions you pose seem too pedestrian to some
here they will get nasty fast. There is more info here than on every
aspect of woodworking than you can possibly imagine.

Robert

Matt S wrote:
Hi all,

I've been working with wood slowing over the last couple years. Most of
the work I have done was with screws for joinery and very poor
finishing techniques such as no sanding and staining only.

Last summer I worked on a new albeit small entertainment stand. I
sanded and poly'd the finish with sanding after each coat followed by
wax. It turned out fairly nice, but not showroom quality.

So I have tons of questions(but keep in mind I only have Home Depot as
my supplier):

Too many questions...

Get the Bob Flexner book on finishing..
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,190,43047

There are other good ones as well.

Look through the Lee Valley site.
http://www.leevalley.com


Lee Valley has lots of good books -- buy a few...

Check some other suppliers. Many give good info for a simple reason --
they want your business.

Start with my links page and go from there.
http://woodwork.pmccl.com/Business/linksbusiness.htm


Sharp chisel and a light touch to remove glue -- once it is rubbery.

Sand up through the grades -- 100 (if needed) 120 to 180...

I like biscuits -- simpler for us beginners.


1. Which is preferable: dowels or biscuits for joining? Plus glue
correct?

2. How do I get a mirror finish with stain or paint?

I use pine because it's so cheap and easily available. My technique
involves sanding with 100 grit and then with something around 200 grit
or higher to get the wood to feel like silk, next I apply a wood
conditioner (I use all minwax products I should add), then after the
recommended wait time I apply stain (regular stain not the stain and
poly together mix), I wipe that down after I get the tone I like and
wait 24 hours to dry. Then I apply the Minwax Polyurethane with a foam
brush and dry for 24 hours, sometimes, I will admit, that spots are
still tacky to the touch. I sand this with steel wool (I think it's 00
might be 000), and apply another coat. I do this 3 times then apply the
Minwax paste wax following the directions. Now after all this work when
you look at the piece in the sun you can still see very fine/small
valleys in the piece.

Should I be waiting longer between coats? I'm very impatient should I
use the Minwax Polycrylic instead? Also what about paint? I want to
learn how to get a painted finished that looks like is was baked on
like the finish on a car.

3. How do the other finishing products work? All the oils for example,
I've only used the above poly and stain, plus I used the One Step a few
times ( I know some people don't like the One Step, but I thought the
finish was much richer and had more depth, but still had the same
problems "little valleys."

4. What is proper technique for cleaning brushes? I have stayed away
from them and wonder if this is part of my problem. I use rags for
stain and foam brushes for the poly and pitch them after each use.

5. On to joinery, I've been looking at biscuit cutters and I understand
how cuts are made in the edge of boards (say a shelf of a book shelf)
but how do you cut biscuits in say the upright parts of the bookshelf?
Does the metal "guide" thing on a biscuit cutter rotate 90 degrees up
so the front of the cutter is almost completely flush with the board
face?

I'm making a new dining room table that I want to have a very thick
top. Which one of these is more sound:

Using a planer on 2x10's and jointing them with biscuits to make the
top OR using 2x4's on a jointer then jointing them with biscuits?

I own most of the woodworkers tools although they were passed on to me
from my grandfather, the one thing I don't own is a planer or biscuit
cutter. I'm getting the biscuit cutter for Christmas and will probably
buy the planar in the spring if I can afford it (moneys tight as I'm in
college)

Eventually I want to get into making solid front doors:

6. What types of wood are these usually made from? Oak? How are they
jointed together? Same as above with biscuits and glue?

7. Glueing-- What do you use to remove the excess overflow? I tried
just a rag but the glue doesn't completely come away, and then screws
up the evenness of the stain being applied after.

Lastly,

8. I did some painting over wood and eventually some spots started to
"leak" through it was white paint and these spots were turning yellow.
Any cure for this?

Thanks in advance,

Matt



--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.” George Bernard Shaw

Cool thanks for the replies guys. I'll check into those books. Thanks
for the links as well.

I wasn't looking for any one person to answer all the questions, just
some quick and dirty answers or for someone with more experience to hit
one question with a very good explaination, I should have said that in
my original post, but didn't think of it. Sorry for that. But you guys
gave me pretty much everything I wanted to know. I'll check out Borders
tomorrow to see if they have anything.

I'm going to check out the links right now.

Thanks again,

Matt

Jeff Jewitt, refinisher/author/teacher has a site with several forums
and has a search capability that is very useful.
www.homesteadfinishing.com I find his books and video very
informative.

On 3 Dec 2005 16:08:12 -0800, "Matt S" wrote:

Cool thanks for the replies guys. I'll check into those books. Thanks
for the links as well.

I wasn't looking for any one person to answer all the questions, just
some quick and dirty answers or for someone with more experience to hit
one question with a very good explaination, I should have said that in
my original post, but didn't think of it. Sorry for that. But you guys
gave me pretty much everything I wanted to know. I'll check out Borders
tomorrow to see if they have anything.

I'm going to check out the links right now.

Thanks again,

Matt