Not tool rental, but a place do do wood working. It seems that to have
a very good shop, you need to spend between 5K and 10K on power tools,
plus the space.

I could see a good business model for someone to open up something like
this. Put a lot of good equipment in it and charge people by the hour
to use them. I realize there would be a lot of wear and tear on blades
etc, but it could be factored in. You would be responsible for your
own hand tools, or could rent a set for extra $$ as part of the
service.

The business could even sell stock items such as decent lumber and
hardware. Of course, there would need to be adequate room for people
to store their project stuff (large lockers / storage closets?).

Yes, insurance would be pricy and you would have to worry about people
abusing the equipment, but employees that monitor the progress and
verify that proper safety wear is being worn as well as safety
practices are exercised can help reduce those costs. If a vocational
school can do it with teenagers, surely insurance for adults would be
affordable.

The business could even get a price break from an exclusive vendor, say
Grizzly and be a showroom for their equipment. It probably wouldn't
make sense to get top of the line equipment since most of your target
audience would be beginners to intermediate. The experts would own
their own equipment and probably wouldn't do as much business with the
place.

Plus, there would be opportunity to offer classes and the like.

Do these exist anywhere?

Jeff

(in
) said:

| Not tool rental, but a place do do wood working. It seems that to
| have a very good shop, you need to spend between 5K and 10K on
| power tools, plus the space.

| Do these exist anywhere?

I've thought about doing something like this on weekends. BYOW :-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

You're trolling, right? No?

Well, the model has always been interesting but
almost in every case such ventures have failed.

I think the biggest reason is that there aren't enough
people to try to keep it open. There are several
WoodCraft stores that allow you to rent time on
their equipment, but they are in the business of
having a retail shop FIRST. Not as a ed center.

I do know that several schools have "private lesson"
capability which is an open shop with an instructor
nearby, but it can be expensive. One in our area
is $75 per hour. If you are doing something simple,
then it might be worth it, but if you're doing anything
that requires a lot of different operations, you will
rack up the dough.

Here's something to consider. Woodworking is
a vast hobby. You can do it with simple hand tools
to immense powertools. Anything is possible.

I'd do the following:

1) Search out your local adult ed. Often there is woodshop
class. One HS near us has 3 nights open.

2) Look for a woodworking school and see if they
have private lessons.

3) Look for a community college, etc. and see if they
have furniture making or cabinet making course. Sometimes
under Industrial Arts.

4) Check your local woodworking club.

5) Buy what you can and see if you can work around
that. Perhaps all you need is just a circ. saw, and some
hand tools. Buy used equipment (Craigslist, local classified)
if you want some powertools. No - room - perhaps
a portable workbench with handtools might be the only
way to go for now.

If you live in BayArea (SF), there is a place "Sawdust'
(I think) that is trying this.

Good luck!

MJ Wallace

Not trolling; honest question.

You're probably right about the demand. I didn't know that people have
tried and failed with it. I guess it would have to be in a market
where there are a lot of wood workers. North Carolina would be a start
(furniture areas).

Thanks for the detail you listed in your response.

Jeff

wrote:
Do these exist anywhere?

Yup

http://www.woodworkersclubnorwalk.com/

In article .com,
wrote:

Do these exist anywhere?

We have one here in Saskatoon, Wood 'N Works. Last I checked it was
$25/hour to rent shop time except for their huge resaw bandsaw.

I took a turning class there a whaile back, they do regular seminars.

djb

--
------
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is:
Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can. -- Frank Zappa

In article .com,
wrote:

You're probably right about the demand. I didn't know that people have
tried and failed with it.

It's worth noting that Wooden 'N Works here in ToonTown also sells
tools and hardwood.

I've been here 11 years and they've been around all that time.

djb

--
------
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is:
Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can. -- Frank Zappa

Wow, thats perfect. I wish they had one here in Louisville. I hope
they continue to have good success.

They exist - heck, I teach at one. Check out
http://www.originalwoodwork.com/doit.asp . I teach in the Calgary
franchise, with 6,000 sq. feet of space. I traded teaching hours there
for do-it-yourself time, and have since moved on to a part-time paid
position.

Your observations (and most of those in the rest of the thread) are
spot on. Yes, it's difficult to make sure that everyone is safe. There
have been accidents (never on my watch). We have the students sign
waivers, as you would do for any other activity associated with risk. I
haven't heard of any of our franchises having legal issues in relation
to that, but that could be also due to being in a less-litigious
culture.

It's also difficult to keep up with tool maintenence. The tools get a
_huge_ workout. As someone who is slowly building my own workshop, it's
interesting to see the stress test that the machines go under, and
which components fail first - I've eliminated several possible personal
purchases based on observation alone.

On the whole, I think that the shop is successful and popular - the
Calgary franchise has been around for more than half-a-dozen years.

Dudley

On 16 Nov 2005 15:07:03 -0800, wrote:

You're trolling, right? No?

Well, the model has always been interesting but
almost in every case such ventures have failed.

I think the biggest reason is that there aren't enough
people to try to keep it open. There are several
WoodCraft stores that allow you to rent time on
their equipment, but they are in the business of
having a retail shop FIRST. Not as a ed center.

Woodcraft's headquarters store in Parkersburg WV recently closed their
membership shop that they rented out for users. Apparently even the
sales to the users and the fairly high fees couldn't justify the labor
and insurance costs. They had to keep an employee in the shop whenever
it was open and that employee had to stay in the shop, not also mind
the store. They still have the shop and equipment, but it is now only
used for "Woodcraft University" lessons and maybe some demo of some
equipment.

Dave Hall

In article . com,
Demosthenes wrote:

On the whole, I think that the shop is successful and popular - the
Calgary franchise has been around for more than half-a-dozen years.

I chatted wiith them at the wood show here in Saskatoon a couple of
years ago... they were looking for an investor to open here but it
hasn't happened yet.

--
"Let's just admit that public education is mediocre at best." -- Frank Zappa

"Demosthenes" wrote in message

spot on. Yes, it's difficult to make sure that everyone is safe. There
have been accidents (never on my watch). We have the students sign
waivers, as you would do for any other activity associated with risk. I
haven't heard of any of our franchises having legal issues in relation
to that, but that could be also due to being in a less-litigious
culture.

You're most likely right ... as "waivers" don't do much to contract away
liability down here. the cost of liability insurance would likely be a big
factor in the success of that type of venture.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

wrote:

Not tool rental, but a place do do wood working. It seems that to have
a very good shop, you need to spend between 5K and 10K on power tools,
plus the space.

I could see a good business model for someone to open up something like
this. Put a lot of good equipment in it and charge people by the hour
to use them. I realize there would be a lot of wear and tear on blades
etc, but it could be factored in. You would be responsible for your
own hand tools, or could rent a set for extra $$ as part of the
service.

The business could even sell stock items such as decent lumber and
hardware. Of course, there would need to be adequate room for people
to store their project stuff (large lockers / storage closets?).

Yes, insurance would be pricy and you would have to worry about people
abusing the equipment, but employees that monitor the progress and
verify that proper safety wear is being worn as well as safety
practices are exercised can help reduce those costs. If a vocational
school can do it with teenagers, surely insurance for adults would be
affordable.

The business could even get a price break from an exclusive vendor, say
Grizzly and be a showroom for their equipment. It probably wouldn't
make sense to get top of the line equipment since most of your target
audience would be beginners to intermediate. The experts would own
their own equipment and probably wouldn't do as much business with the
place.

Plus, there would be opportunity to offer classes and the like.

Do these exist anywhere?

Jeff

Yes, there is one about 30 minutes from me (I forget which town, but I
think it's Sunnyvale, CA). You have to join their club which kinda
sucks--you can't just rent by the hour. the shop IS nice though. for
those desperate to work some wood, it beats nothing at all. They also
have a store front with a few pieces of equipment and a bit of neander
tools, all over priced.

Dave

wrote in message
oups.com...
Not tool rental, but a place do do wood working. It seems that to have
a very good shop, you need to spend between 5K and 10K on power tools,
plus the space.

Do these exist anywhere?

Yes, anyone remember the guy in New Jersey that opened up about a year ago?
He had a web page about it. After the opening he has not posted so I have
no idea how it is going.

That's excellent, thanks! I didn't know they had one up here in Edmonton.
Although their hours kind of suck (10 am to 4 pm), but what the heck.

--
Clint
"Demosthenes" wrote in message
ups.com...
They exist - heck, I teach at one. Check out
http://www.originalwoodwork.com/doit.asp . I teach in the Calgary
franchise, with 6,000 sq. feet of space. I traded teaching hours there
for do-it-yourself time, and have since moved on to a part-time paid
position.

Your observations (and most of those in the rest of the thread) are
spot on. Yes, it's difficult to make sure that everyone is safe. There
have been accidents (never on my watch). We have the students sign
waivers, as you would do for any other activity associated with risk. I
haven't heard of any of our franchises having legal issues in relation
to that, but that could be also due to being in a less-litigious
culture.

It's also difficult to keep up with tool maintenence. The tools get a
_huge_ workout. As someone who is slowly building my own workshop, it's
interesting to see the stress test that the machines go under, and
which components fail first - I've eliminated several possible personal
purchases based on observation alone.

On the whole, I think that the shop is successful and popular - the
Calgary franchise has been around for more than half-a-dozen years.

Dudley

Our local community college has some weekend non-credit
classes where the students get to work on their own
projects in the school's shop. Why not check if a school
in your area has a similar program?

--
-- Steve

I actually looked into this with someone that was thinking it was time
to do it. He has money, is a great businessman with two companies
going now. He clicked on the idea when he found out what was needed to
outfit a shop according to our local "experts".

The space wasn't a problem, but getting the sufficient electrical
service was, as was getting it wired correctly. The necessary A/C for
today's woodworker was enormous, as was the cost of designing and
implementing a good DC system. No hoses on the floor to trip over in a
classroom environment!

Found out a couple of distributors will sell direct if you are buying
three table saws, three drill presses, two industrial dust collectors,
a floor model board planer, a couple of jointers, 6 "high school" type
maple topped work tables with lockers underneath for peronal stuff,
about 40 sturdy metal stools for the tables, a couple of stationery
sanders, a couple of medium sized lathes, a couple of mini lathes,
about $3500 worth of clamps (don't snort... it isn't that many!), a
finishing booth with the correct VOC evacuation equipment, and on and
on and on. Came out to about $350,000 for all of it, including space
prep, tools, freight and shipping, and some incidentals.

Still didn't scare my buddy off.

Here's what did.

I took him to Woodcraft where they have a lot of his setup for
teaching, but not for walk in rentals, where they would need more of
everything in our local Woodcraft shop.
We talked to the franchise owner and the manager(s) which I know well.
(I have my next class to teach there scheduled for Dec. 1st) They
gave him the skinny: it is hard to fill a class with 5 -6 openings for
an all day class with a qualified instructor for a $150 fee which would
allow them to use pretty much all the tools. We talked about just
renting shop time, and our local Woodcraft never found that alone to be
profitable. They had to go to "classroom" format for insurance
purposes so that their carriers could be assured that a someone from
Woodcraft would be present at all times.

After that, I took him to our woodturning club, where we have some
fantastic turners. Everyone was enthusiastic, and we have thrown the
idea around of getting a really nice "club lathe" that would turn
something larger than most folks can on their lathes. No one in the
club wanted to spend the club money on it, even if it meant they could
schedule time on it and use it FREE. He was horrified. Everyone was
enthusiastic in lip service, but when the rubber met the road they
simply weren't that committed.

Then I told him that I had invited some of my old friends over to work
in my shop whenever they wanted, just bring the doughnuts or BBQ,
depending on what time and what day you come. In twenty two years of
having this shop... no takers. I have had folks come over with stuff
for me to fix while they watched and drank coffee, but no one has ever
come over and started a project from scratch and completed it. Not
even something little. He was seeing that attendance and interest
don't seem work out the same in the WW world.

The capper was the insurance. We found a carrier that could get us
going for a $25K up front premium, and depending on shop hours and
number of folks using equipment they would assess the second premium in
six months. For talking points, their rep said that we should plan on
about a $30K premium to cover instructors, overseers, and students.
Instructors would need formal training certification from a school,
college, or something that they could show the insurance guys that they
were qualified to operate and instuct on the machines in the shop.
They would not allow an experienced woodworker to baby sit. Qualified
personnel only.

In our investigations, we took my favorite corporate atty to lunch to
run this by him. He laughed his ass off at the idea of a signed,
notarized waiver protecting anyone from being sued. Literally laughed.
All the plaintiff has to do he said, was prove negligence of some
sort, or neglect of any type.

His example: An idiot cuts a cord on a tool and doesn't want to pay
for it so he quietly shuts the machine off and goes to work on
something else. No one sees it
since it is at the end of the rental day. So the next day, bright and
early someone walks to that machine and turns it on and shocks the crap
out of himself. Whose fault is it? Well, yours of course. You didn't
check out each machine for readiness before the start of the business
day.

A person is using a miter saw to cut small pieces. He wants to save on
wood, so he is cutting one that is really small, and he launches the
small piece into the guy working across the shop, giving him a ding
that requires a few stitches. Whose fault is that? Well yours of
course. You probably didn't tell the saw operator that it was unsafe
to cut small pieces of unsupported wood with a 10 amp saw. Even if you
managed to get this out in your miter saw speech, did he remember it?
Was he clear on this point? Did he understand what the ramifications
were if he actually did that? Would he admit it if it meant he had
some culpability?

And did the guy that got dinged know he was at risk from other users?
Did he know he was exposing himself to dangerous situations at the
hands of others? Did you explain to him when he signed up that he
might get hurt due to someone else's misuse or even an honest mistake
when using some of the tools?

As a contractor, I am used to this. Guys sue thinking that if they
win, and for them it is like hitting the lottery if they do. He was
not used to this and was on another track altogether. He was thinking
a group of like minded individuals could get together, talk, share tips
and techniques and work on their projects in harmony and fellowship.
He figured he wouldn't get it all right up front, but he would work on
improvement every day the doors were open.

And all the rivers would run with chocolate, and the trees were made
from candy canes.

As it was, he was literally nauseous, and couldn't get his near
disaster out of his mind.
It was my idea to meet with the attorney as he didn't feel it was
necessary. He felt like he just barely dodged a bullet. And in this
hugely sue-happy, "it wasn't my fault someone has to pay" society, he
probably did.

If you have an old shop rental organization that is set up and working
and is grandfathered in on some insurance, you are very lucky. I would
love something like that around here, but there is nothing like it.
And at the cost of starting something like that from scratch without a
track record for insurers to look at, I doubt there ever will.

Robert

If you live anywhere near a military base you can check there. Don't
know if you are eligible if you are not in the military, but some
bases have very nive shops. Worth a phone call if there is one in the
area.

Homer

On 16 Nov 2005 14:56:16 -0800, wrote:

Not tool rental, but a place do do wood working. It seems that to have
a very good shop, you need to spend between 5K and 10K on power tools,
plus the space.

I could see a good business model for someone to open up something like
this. Put a lot of good equipment in it and charge people by the hour
to use them. I realize there would be a lot of wear and tear on blades
etc, but it could be factored in. You would be responsible for your
own hand tools, or could rent a set for extra $$ as part of the
service.

The business could even sell stock items such as decent lumber and
hardware. Of course, there would need to be adequate room for people
to store their project stuff (large lockers / storage closets?).

Yes, insurance would be pricy and you would have to worry about people
abusing the equipment, but employees that monitor the progress and
verify that proper safety wear is being worn as well as safety
practices are exercised can help reduce those costs. If a vocational
school can do it with teenagers, surely insurance for adults would be
affordable.

The business could even get a price break from an exclusive vendor, say
Grizzly and be a showroom for their equipment. It probably wouldn't
make sense to get top of the line equipment since most of your target
audience would be beginners to intermediate. The experts would own
their own equipment and probably wouldn't do as much business with the
place.

Plus, there would be opportunity to offer classes and the like.

Do these exist anywhere?

Jeff

I had an idea along similar llines. In this case, I'd convert an old
warehouse or something like that into workshops. Sort of like indoor
storage units, but with light and power outlets. A variety of sizes too.
You rent a workshop on a lease basis, and fill it with your own tools.

Of course, the logistics would have been a nightmare...the variety of
rooms, the electrical and heating for each shop, access, security,
safety (flammable chemicals, welders, etc.). Talk about a nightmare!

John

We have a better model here in town. The park district and the high
school have a joint agreement where the public can use the high
school shop equipment. It's publicly subsidized, so it's
cheap, and they're very flexible about hours. A commercial venture
might have better equipment but would be far more expensive.

wrote:
Not tool rental, but a place do do wood working. It seems that to have
a very good shop, you need to spend between 5K and 10K on power tools,
plus the space.

I could see a good business model for someone to open up something like
this. Put a lot of good equipment in it and charge people by the hour
to use them. I realize there would be a lot of wear and tear on blades
etc, but it could be factored in. You would be responsible for your
own hand tools, or could rent a set for extra $$ as part of the
service.

The biggest problem with this sort of thing is getting insurance
coverage.

Try any local colleges or high schools that offer woodworking courses.
Often you can sign up for a course and with the teachers consent, work
on your own project. They mainly want to know you can use the tools
safely.

Where is this located?



Mike Berger wrote:
We have a better model here in town. The park district and the high
school have a joint agreement where the public can use the high
school shop equipment. It's publicly subsidized, so it's
cheap, and they're very flexible about hours. A commercial venture
might have better equipment but would be far more expensive.

wrote:

Not tool rental, but a place do do wood working. It seems that to have
a very good shop, you need to spend between 5K and 10K on power tools,
plus the space.

I could see a good business model for someone to open up something like
this. Put a lot of good equipment in it and charge people by the hour
to use them. I realize there would be a lot of wear and tear on blades
etc, but it could be factored in. You would be responsible for your
own hand tools, or could rent a set for extra $$ as part of the
service.


--
Joseph Connors
The New Golden Rule:
Those with the gold, make the rules!

Some company starting doing something similar here with cooking
equipment. They provide the space, recipes, and ingredients, all
chopped, sifted, minced, etc, and you prepare a week's worth of meals
at a time.

Was very popular for a while, but I understand it's struggling now. I
suspect the novelty wore off for the interested, and the market was
shallow to begin with.

Mike Berger writes:

We have a better model here in town. The park district and the high
school have a joint agreement where the public can use the high
school shop equipment. It's publicly subsidized, so it's
cheap, and they're very flexible about hours. A commercial venture
might have better equipment but would be far more expensive.

My high school shop had incredible equipment! I think it was pretty
much all Northfield, but I don't recall seeing any nameplates.
Northfield's plant is 40 miles away, so that would make sense.

The school had a 16" tablesaw, 20" planer, 8" or 12" jointer, at least 20"
bandsaw, and a big shaper. The RAS was a 14" or 16" Delta. They also had
a number of Delta lathes. There was a 14" Rockwell or Delta bandsaw. The
nicest thing they had was the huge Timesavers wide belt sander.

The only problem was no money to fix the machines if they broke. The RAS
was unusable for most of a semester due to a bearing that needed to be
replaced.

This was back in the late 80s. I'm not sure the high school even has a
woodshop today. The high school was expanded and remodeled top to bottom
a few years ago and I wouldn't be suprised if the shop was removed.

Brian Elfert

Very interesting post. Thanks for sharing your experience. You are
right about a sue happy jackpot society we live in. I wish congress
would pass some kind of tort reform, but with a building full of
lawyers, I doubt it would ever happen.

Jeff

If you live in BayArea (SF), there is a place "Sawdust'
(I think) that is trying this.

Could you provide any more details about this? I live in Oakland and
would love to check it out.

Damian

damian:

Could you provide any more details about this? I live in Oakland and
would love to check it out.


Always do a "Google" first (Sunnyvale, woodworking, school).

Popout - http://sawdustshop.com/

MJ Wallace

Military only. The best shops are in other countries.

wrote in message
...
If you live anywhere near a military base you can check there. Don't
know if you are eligible if you are not in the military, but some
bases have very nive shops. Worth a phone call if there is one in the
area.

wrote:

damian:


Could you provide any more details about this? I live in Oakland and
would love to check it out.



Always do a "Google" first (Sunnyvale, woodworking, school).

Popout - http://sawdustshop.com/

MJ Wallace

that's the shop I couldn't recall the name of...in Sunnyvale as I
mentioned a few days ago. Nice shop area.

Dave

On 16 Nov 2005 14:56:16 -0800, wrote:

Not tool rental, but a place do do wood working. It seems that to have
a very good shop, you need to spend between 5K and 10K on power tools,
plus the space.

I could see a good business model for someone to open up something like
this. Put a lot of good equipment in it and charge people by the hour
to use them. I realize there would be a lot of wear and tear on blades
etc, but it could be factored in. You would be responsible for your
own hand tools, or could rent a set for extra $$ as part of the
service.

The business could even sell stock items such as decent lumber and
hardware. Of course, there would need to be adequate room for people
to store their project stuff (large lockers / storage closets?).

Yes, insurance would be pricy and you would have to worry about people
abusing the equipment, but employees that monitor the progress and
verify that proper safety wear is being worn as well as safety
practices are exercised can help reduce those costs. If a vocational
school can do it with teenagers, surely insurance for adults would be
affordable.

The business could even get a price break from an exclusive vendor, say
Grizzly and be a showroom for their equipment. It probably wouldn't
make sense to get top of the line equipment since most of your target
audience would be beginners to intermediate. The experts would own
their own equipment and probably wouldn't do as much business with the
place.

Plus, there would be opportunity to offer classes and the like.

Do these exist anywhere?

Jeff


Yes. In my town (pop. 28,000) there is a business called "Your
WoodShop" where you pay a monthly fee to use shop space. They have
all the basic (large) tools. I'm fortunate that I have my own shop,
but I can imagine a rented shop is a huge liability concern.

wrote:
damian:

Could you provide any more details about this? I live in Oakland and
would love to check it out.


Always do a "Google" first (Sunnyvale, woodworking, school).

Popout - http://sawdustshop.com/

MJ Wallace

Well I did Google sawdust bay area, and sawdust san francisco.. anyway
thx.