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"Upscale" wrote in
: The only saw apparatus that I've seen on the LV site that might produce cuts suitable for flooring is the mitre trimmer. It doesn't exactly say, but viewing it online suggests to me that it's capable of 90° cuts. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...22&cat=1,42884 Check out the miter boxes: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...27&cat=1,42884 (standard) http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...26&cat=1,42884 (professional) BOTH of these should be able to produce square, smooth ends similar to a quality (power) chop saw. They have up to 32 tpi blades available. The work can be clamped on the "bed" of the saw. The saw is "captive" in the guides. Assuming that the saw is accurate and not defective (same assumption for any equipment), there is no reason these would not make quick, quits, accurate cuts. They *are* manual saws, and if you do much cutting, you will get tired and sweaty. You'll make more noise huffing and puffing than the saw will make. |
"Upscale" wrote in message ... "Prometheus" wrote in message Yeah, give a nice handsaw a try- you can't really get a good one at the local borg these days, but you can order them from any of the mail-order companies that cater to woodworkers. Using hand tools only seems hard until you get a good one, and then it's a real eye-opener. Got a brand recommendation? Whatever I consider buying will have to be available somewhere in the Canadian market. Lie-Nielson has a variety of back saws available now and will have panel saws in the not too distant future... I've got a couple L-N back saws (rip and cross-cut) and some Diston and Sandvik panel saws (again rip and various cross-cut). The Diston and Sandvik saws didn't come into their own until they had been sharpened. From the factory they cut OK but not nearly as good as after a professional sharpening. John |
"Upscale" wrote in message ... "Dave in Fairfax" wrote in message inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV. It's ok, I'm not upset. I'm just keeping in mind the OP's request for a quiet way to produce cuts (night time operation) that are suitable for laying laminate flooring. Aside from the shearing method, or the edge planing method (which I feel is much too slow for production speed professional work) I can't envision anything else that would meet his noise concerns. Even if a Dozuki saw and some specialized usage can produce the type of 90° cuts obtained by a properly set up chop saw, I refuse to believe that it can be done nearly fast enough to be worthwhile using for production work. I joined this thread late... If the OP marked his cuts fairly deep with a knife and then used a good sharp handsaw I don't see any reason for him to not get acceptable cuts for flooring. He'd probably do better than he would with a mediocre CMS and mediocre blade... If he's doing this at night and noise is a concern it doesn't sound like he's looking for production speed. John |
"Dan Major" wrote in message .6... "Upscale" wrote in : The only saw apparatus that I've seen on the LV site that might produce cuts suitable for flooring is the mitre trimmer. It doesn't exactly say, but viewing it online suggests to me that it's capable of 90° cuts. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...22&cat=1,42884 Check out the miter boxes: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...27&cat=1,42884 (standard) http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...26&cat=1,42884 (professional) BOTH of these should be able to produce square, smooth ends similar to a quality (power) chop saw. They have up to 32 tpi blades available. The work can be clamped on the "bed" of the saw. The saw is "captive" in the guides. Assuming that the saw is accurate and not defective (same assumption for any equipment), there is no reason these would not make quick, quits, accurate cuts. They *are* manual saws, and if you do much cutting, you will get tired and sweaty. You'll make more noise huffing and puffing than the saw will make. Way back when I was in eighth grade shop, we cut everyting on a miter box like the ones shown above. And we did nice precise cuts too. Everything was square. Our shop teacher was very particular about that. If the project wasn't square or had bad joints, out grades would suffer. As for ripping, we had handsaws for that. We would cut close to a line. thenplane the board to the line. We did pretty good as a group of beginners. |
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:38:36 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote: "Prometheus" wrote in message Yeah, give a nice handsaw a try- you can't really get a good one at the local borg these days, but you can order them from any of the mail-order companies that cater to woodworkers. Using hand tools only seems hard until you get a good one, and then it's a real eye-opener. Got a brand recommendation? Whatever I consider buying will have to be available somewhere in the Canadian market. Take a look at Lee Valley. (http://www.leevalley.com/) and the Japan Woodworker (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/page.asp?content_id=2896) I hesitate to make a recommendation, as everyone has a slightly different preference, but each of these companies has good solid products that work well. For what you're up to, I'd use something like this (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/produ...ept _id=13085) Because I like cutting on the pull stroke, and the spine on the back of the saw will keep it ridgid when making straight cuts in a miter box. If you prefer the western-style saws, it's just a matter of finding one that works for you. I favor a gent's saw with a crosscut set over a dovetail saw (for instance) because of the handle style, but as stated above, that's going to depend on you. A cheap pull saw from a local borg will work as well, but will not last nearly as long, and I've never seen one with a still brace on the back of the blade. |
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:04:30 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote: "Dave in Fairfax" wrote in message inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV. It's ok, I'm not upset. I'm just keeping in mind the OP's request for a quiet way to produce cuts (night time operation) that are suitable for laying laminate flooring. Aside from the shearing method, or the edge planing method (which I feel is much too slow for production speed professional work) I can't envision anything else that would meet his noise concerns. Even if a Dozuki saw and some specialized usage can produce the type of 90° cuts obtained by a properly set up chop saw, I refuse to believe that it can be done nearly fast enough to be worthwhile using for production work. Depends on what kind of production you're doing. As stated in my original post in this thread, I've done a whole pile of trim work with a dozuki and a coping saw, and it was all up to snuff. Which is to say, much nicer than 98% of the crap you see around you every day. There really, really is an arguement for hand tools being at least as, if not more, accurate than power tools in the hands of the right person. If you're lopping off crappy laminate to beat the next guy's lowest bid, then it's probably not worthwhile. If you're trying to make/maintain a reputation for quality over speed, then a handsaw will work beautifully. Especially when the job requires a special requirement, like the lowest amount of noise or dust possible, customers will often be willing to pay for real craftsmanship when it is availible. Also, a good dozuki will cut most trim (though I can't claim this for flooring, I imagine it it very similar) in 3-4 strokes- similar in time to lining up the cut on the power miter saw. Further evidence of the race to the bottom, I guess. Get yourself a nice handsaw, Upscale, and give it a whirl- you may be surprised to find that they actually do work. And, though it may seem unlikely, they're sometimes faster than the power versions, as they don't require special setups or jigs for some cuts. |
Something that impresses me during this discussion is that everyone is
concentrating on hand saws and planes when laminate flooring is to be cut. This stuff kills carbide rapidly, I don't see any carbon steel blade standing up to it for any length of time. wrote in message ups.com... Upscale wrote: "Dave in Fairfax" wrote in message inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV. I don't know if the pax saws are high quality or not. The Independence saws, now made by Lie Nielsen and the Adria saws both have a great reputation. Possibly these are as good as the best antiques you could find. It's ok, I'm not upset. I'm just keeping in mind the OP's request for a quiet way to produce cuts (night time operation) that are suitable for laying laminate flooring. Aside from the shearing method, or the edge planing method (which I feel is much too slow for production speed professional work) ... I don't see why shearing or edge planing would be too slow. It is one additonal step after cutting, but a quick one. Of course there is time needed to hone the blade once every night or so that's a quick job with the plane, don't know about the shear. -- FF |
CW wrote: Something that impresses me during this discussion is that everyone is concentrating on hand saws and planes when laminate flooring is to be cut. This stuff kills carbide rapidly, I don't see any carbon steel blade standing up to it for any length of time. wrote in message ups.com... Upscale wrote: "Dave in Fairfax" wrote in message inexperienced. I also wasn't saying that you'd get a sawcut that was smooth as a baby's butt. You asked about the availablity of high quality saws in Canada and I was suggesting LV. I don't know if the pax saws are high quality or not. The Independence saws, now made by Lie Nielsen and the Adria saws both have a great reputation. Possibly these are as good as the best antiques you could find. ... Of course there is time needed to hone the blade once every night or so that's a quick job with the plane, don't know about the shear. Of course we are, OP wanted a quiet saw. There are no quiet power saws. Honing the plane blade is a fast step. Resharpening a Western style crosscut backsaw takes about 2-3 minutes, the teeth do not need to be jointed or set each time it is sharpened. Replacement blades for the less expensive Japanese style saws are around $10, last I looked. A new blade should last for a few nights' work. -- FF |
Sharpening the saw every other cut would be a might bit slow.
"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message news:F05Le.4691 I joined this thread late... If the OP marked his cuts fairly deep with a knife and then used a good sharp handsaw I don't see any reason for him to not get acceptable cuts for flooring. He'd probably do better than he would with a mediocre CMS and mediocre blade... If he's doing this at night and noise is a concern it doesn't sound like he's looking for production speed. John |
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wrote in message Of course we are, OP wanted a quiet saw. There are no quiet power saws. Honing the plane blade is a fast step. Resharpening a Western style crosscut backsaw takes about 2-3 minutes, the teeth do not need to be jointed or set each time it is sharpened. Replacement blades for the less expensive Japanese style saws are around $10, last I looked. A new blade should last for a few nights' work. Kidding right? You've never cut laminate flooring have you? Using a steel blade, I used two just to do a few stair treads. |
"CW" wrote in message nk.net... Sharpening the saw every other cut would be a might bit slow. Unless it is wide board, then it would be after every cut. |
Ever cut any laminate flooring? The substance used in the topcoat, this is
the stuff that gives it its wear resistance, is aluminum oxide. Talk to Norton about aluminum oxide. That's what they use to make oilstones from. I wouldn't touch a piece of laminate flooring with any plane or saw I cared about. wrote in message oups.com... Honing the plane blade is a fast step. Resharpening a Western style crosscut backsaw takes about 2-3 minutes, the teeth do not need to be jointed or set each time it is sharpened. Replacement blades for the less expensive Japanese style saws are around $10, last I looked. A new blade should last for a few nights' work. -- FF |
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"CW" wrote in message nk.net... Sharpening the saw every other cut would be a might bit slow. "John Grossbohlin" wrote in message news:F05Le.4691 I joined this thread late... If the OP marked his cuts fairly deep with a knife and then used a good sharp handsaw I don't see any reason for him to not get acceptable cuts for flooring. He'd probably do better than he would with a mediocre CMS and mediocre blade... If he's doing this at night and noise is a concern it doesn't sound like he's looking for production speed. John If you feel the finish is a concern than marking with the knife and then cutting a V-groove along the line (on the waste side) with the knife would eliminate the finish. The saw will track in the groove if some kind of saw guide is used (e.g., bench hook, 90 degree setting in a miter box, etc)... John |
CW wrote: Ever cut any laminate flooring? The substance used in the topcoat, this is the stuff that gives it its wear resistance, is aluminum oxide. Talk to Norton about aluminum oxide. That's what they use to make oilstones from. I wouldn't touch a piece of laminate flooring with any plane or saw I cared about. wrote in message oups.com... Honing the plane blade is a fast step. Resharpening a Western style crosscut backsaw takes about 2-3 minutes, the teeth do not need to be jointed or set each time it is sharpened. Replacement blades for the less expensive Japanese style saws are around $10, last I looked. A new blade should last for a few nights' work. No, I haven't cut laminate flooring. Sounds like he's SOL as far as finding a quiet saw that'll do the job. BTW, my oilstones are made from silicon carbide--harder than alundum. I've used both alundum and silicon carbide to grind glass and the silicon carbide in the same grit size is MUCH faster. Someday I'll try honing on ground glass. -- FF |
Silicon carbide stones do a great job on axes and shovels. Don't really do
much woodworking, do you? wrote in message oups.com... CW wrote: BTW, my oilstones are made from silicon carbide--harder than alundum. |
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David wrote:
I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is merely uninformed conjectures. Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think. |
Prometheus wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David wrote: I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is merely uninformed conjectures. Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think. What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up against walls. Any ideas? Dave Dave |
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CW wrote: Silicon carbide stones do a great job on axes and shovels. Don't really do much woodworking, do you? wrote in message oups.com... CW wrote: BTW, my oilstones are made from silicon carbide--harder than alundum. Not sure what your point is about axes and shovels. I mostly use waterstones for planes and chisels. The coarse or fine carborundum stones are good for grinding or repairing the bezel, much as one would use a file on a nicked axe. Never sharpened a shovel, have you and why? I don't do as much woodworking as I'd like to. -- FF |
David wrote:
Prometheus wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David wrote: I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is merely uninformed conjectures. Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think. What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up against walls. Any ideas? Router w/ uptwist bit and upper bearing guide if need really good finish edge--otherwise, just hog it out and use the shoe mould to cover it up... |
David wrote: ... What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up against walls. Any ideas? The same guy who used to go arouns to the woodworkign shows and sell the drill bits that drill through files etc, sold reciprocating saw blades (sawzall and saber saw) that were edged with silicon carbide abrasive. If you can find one of those or the equivalent, they might do the job. You could make a handle for one of those to make a pad saw for getting into really tight places. Does that company have an online presence? -- FF |
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:58:17 -0700, David wrote:
Is there a jig-saw-like tool that cuts flush and has a carbide edged bit available?? I could limit it's cutting depth by covering the laminate with a block of wood and the stroke of a jigsaw should be a lot less than my Sawzall. Dave fein multimaster. |
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:52:03 -0700, David wrote:
Prometheus wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David wrote: I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is merely uninformed conjectures. Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think. What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up against walls. Any ideas? Pergo. It seemed to cut fine to me, but YMMV. That's a sticky job you've got there... I don't know much about the Wilson Art flooring, but perhaps you could remove the trim and use a really cheap abrasive disc in a 4" angle grinder? That'd get you really close, and then you could knock out the rest with a sharp chisel (Use a cheap chisel, of course) |
Prometheus wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:52:03 -0700, David wrote: Prometheus wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:13:39 -0700, David wrote: I'd bet you've never cut laminate flooring! That stuff is so tough it's hard to cut with a brand new carbide tipped saw blade. Your post is merely uninformed conjectures. Well, David, you have to cut it with something. If you can't do it with a power saw because it's too noisy, then you have to do it with a handsaw. Might not be the way you'd like to see it done, and it may not be easy, but a saw is a saw. Sure, it'll wear out the blade, but that's true of the power saw blades as well. Either way, the flooring has to be cut, right? FWIW, I have cut laminate flooring with a dozuki, and continued to use it long after that project, until I cut a nail in half with it by mistake and broke a bunch of teeth. Yes, I did cut the nail in half- it's not hyperbole. Not the suggested use for that tool, but even the cheap ones are tougher than you may think. What brand of laminate did you cut? I use Wilson Art flooring which makes me cringe each time I bring the blade down on my carbide blade-equipped CMS. I'm still mulling over my options for cutting the already-installed flooring for some new cabinets. I've got a carbide blade for my 6-1/2" circular saw, but that will only do the long straight runs. I'll need another tool to cut into the corners and up against walls. Any ideas? Pergo. It seemed to cut fine to me, but YMMV. That's a sticky job you've got there... I don't know much about the Wilson Art flooring, but perhaps you could remove the trim and use a really cheap abrasive disc in a 4" angle grinder? That'd get you really close, and then you could knock out the rest with a sharp chisel (Use a cheap chisel, of course) I do have an air powered angle grinder (it never has much "oomph", but lots of RPM). I'll try it on some scrap laminate (and I could remove the trim...DUH! (light bulb moment!)...I will HAVE to cut the trim anyway, in order to install the wider cabinets. (And here I was thinking I'd found the perfect excuse for a new tool...but that's ok...I still need another Veritas plane [or 2]) Dave |
David wrote in
: s wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:58:17 -0700, David wrote: Is there a jig-saw-like tool that cuts flush and has a carbide edged bit available?? I could limit it's cutting depth by covering the laminate with a block of wood and the stroke of a jigsaw should be a lot less than my Sawzall. Dave fein multimaster. thanks. I'll check it out. It might be worth what I'd expect would be a hefty admission price, like my Fein shop vac. Dave Not too bad. The midrange kit is about $239, IIRC. Woodcraft has them, as well as some of the better builder supply yards. The carbide grout cutter tool is a life saver when, for example, a woodworker tiles a shower, and gets a little exhuberent with the thinset. Just to pick an entirely random for instance. But it is one sweet tool. Patriarch |
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