Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.

What about the "chatter" on the Veritas planes, Tom? Ever considered
ordering a beaut of a plane from Lee Valley?

Dave

Tom Banes wrote:

Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.

The fine woodworking May/June 2005 issue evaluated no. 4 metal
smoothing planes including L-N and Cliffton. The Clifton has a dished
sole that "made for erratic performance". They lapped the sole for 30
minutes and corrected it, but did not rate it as high as the L-N. L-N
and Veritas tied as Best Overall.

Having to lap the sole on a $250-$300 plane is totally unacceptable in
my book.

Personnally, I would spend my money on the Veritas. But then I place no
value in how "pretty" a plane is. If that's important, the L-N wins
hands down.

Bob

MAYBE a LN is prettier, but isn't a Veritas pretty ENOUGH? Even my wife
thinks my Veritas planes are tres cool. I'll check out their web site
to see what you mean about "pretty".

Dave

wrote:

The fine woodworking May/June 2005 issue evaluated no. 4 metal
smoothing planes including L-N and Cliffton. The Clifton has a dished
sole that "made for erratic performance". They lapped the sole for 30
minutes and corrected it, but did not rate it as high as the L-N. L-N
and Veritas tied as Best Overall.

Having to lap the sole on a $250-$300 plane is totally unacceptable in
my book.

Personnally, I would spend my money on the Veritas. But then I place no
value in how "pretty" a plane is. If that's important, the L-N wins
hands down.

Bob

I just looked at LN. I fail to see the improvement in esthetics over a
Veritas. I looked at the LA Jack.

Dave

wrote:

The fine woodworking May/June 2005 issue evaluated no. 4 metal
smoothing planes including L-N and Cliffton. The Clifton has a dished
sole that "made for erratic performance". They lapped the sole for 30
minutes and corrected it, but did not rate it as high as the L-N. L-N
and Veritas tied as Best Overall.

Having to lap the sole on a $250-$300 plane is totally unacceptable in
my book.

Personnally, I would spend my money on the Veritas. But then I place no
value in how "pretty" a plane is. If that's important, the L-N wins
hands down.

Bob

The question is do you know how to tune up a plane? If you don't and
don't want to bother to learn beyond a quick honeing of the blade the
only answer is Lie-Nielsen. The others mentioned will require a fair
amount of rework to get them into shape.

I've owned a couple of Veritas planes and they needed a lot of tuning
but worked well after they were tuned up. Personally, I feel they are
probably worth the money but I wouldn't buy another.

I have recently been in class with someone who tuned up a new Clifton
after giving up on another cheap plane. It also required some tuning
but worked very well afterwards. I seemed very well made and I would
consider buying one.

If you want to learn who to tune up a plane and get something decent
in the bargain I would look for a used older Stanley in fairly good
shape and learn how to tune it up. You will wind up with a very good
plane, gained a lot of useful knowledge and not have spent a lot of
money.

I currently have 4 or 5 different Lie-Nielson and 3 or 4 Older
Stanley's and have recently ordered a Steve Knight plane. Although I
got rid of my Veritas planes they would be a very acceptable
alternative. I have had an opportunity to try several others but I
haven't seen anything else worth the money (of course there are some
REALLY expensive planes I haven't seen that are probably very good).

Additionally your would have to take any plane purchase decision on a
case by case basis as I'm sure LN, Veritas and Clifton all have some
models better then others. I can only go by my experience for what I
have owned and directly had experience using. Others my have a
different experience.


On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:59:28 -0500, Tom Banes
wrote:

Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.

wrote in news:1119496248.463238.81580
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

snip
Personally, I would spend my money on the Veritas. But then I place no
value in how "pretty" a plane is. If that's important, the L-N wins
hands down.

Bob


In a 'pretty contest', you need to add in Steve Knight's and Wayne
Anderson's work.

I own a couple of Steve's, and aspire to owning one of Wayne's.

Steve's designs work exceptionally well. So do the Veritas designs, of
which I have a LA Smoother, with the high angle blade.

But an _old_ Stanley Sweetheart 4.5, well tuned, and with a slight back
bevel, is not too shabby, unless the grain is really nasty.

Patriarch,
wondering about the 12 steps...

Ron wrote

If you want to learn who to tune up a plane and get something decent
in the bargain I would look for a used older Stanley in fairly good
shape and learn how to tune it up. You will wind up with a very good
plane, gained a lot of useful knowledge and not have spent a lot of
money.

A visit to Planing Notes - Fettling a Cast Iron Plane will reveal some
information that supports Ron's view. Maybe you could spend the considerable
saving on some more tools?

Jeff G

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:59:28 -0500, Tom Banes
wrote:

a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site.

For a simple smoother, get a Veritas

For rare repros, get a Lie-Nielsen.

For crap English production quality, get a Clifton.

If you're in Europe, just stock up on cheap Lie-Nielsens, because the
dollar is in the toilet.


Cliftons are _supposed_ to be the best Stanley repro made. They have the
best irons, the materials are better chosen (bronze isn't the best
choice for a bench plane in the English climate). But they still can't
make the things reliably. If you get a good one, they're an excellent
plane - as good as anything. But you've only a 50:50 chance of getting
one that's made to an acceptable standard of quality for a plane at this
price level.

As someone who in the past has worked on trying to improve production
quality in English factories, this really annoys me. Clifton make
aerospace tooling (hopefully better than this) and they should have no
trouble at all making a mere plane. Yet they demonstrably can't. I don't
know whether it's poor machining, or that old favourite of letting the
accountants season the castings for too short a time beforehand -- but
at this price, they shoudl be _right_ and they're not.

If you don't like the Clifton bench plane, certainly don't waste your
money on their curved spokeshaves. These are an example of how
non-woodworking designers can foul up a tool by drawing it out and never
actually using one.

Lie-Niesen 4 1/2 is better than the Veritas, although Veritas has some
excellent planes.

For example, the Veritas Edge Trimming Block plane is better than the
LN one.

Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.


Tom, may I have that Clifton website link please?

I have a Clifton #6 (fore plane) that I really like, but probably wouldn't
have bought it if it weren't for the Woodcraft liquidation sale awhile ago
(got it for $175).

I also have several Lie-Nielsen planes including the 4 1/2, low-angle jack
and a couple specialty ones. I don't own a Veritas bench plane, but have
their LA block plane and several other tools made by them. I also have many
old Stanley planes, and 2 Steven Knight woodies. Planes are good

At any rate, the fit and finish of the clifton plane is very nice, but is
just a little lower in quality than the Lie-Nielsen. My particular #6 had a
very flat sole and was machined extremely well, but the adjuster has just
enough backlash (relative to the Lie-Nielsen) to be noticeable. The
Lie-Nielsen is definitely the way to go, even when compared to the Veritas
(for the 4.5 at any rate).

Mike

"Tom Banes" wrote in message
...
Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.

Hi Andy, Tom, et al,
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Andy Dingley wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:59:28 -0500, Tom Banes
wrote:

a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site.

For a simple smoother, get a Veritas

For rare repros, get a Lie-Nielsen.

For crap English production quality, get a Clifton.

Apparantly with Cliftons it's a bit of a crapshoot. I bought a #6
Clifton when Woodcraft was clearing them out for half price. I really
like that plane a lot. But, others' experiences that I've read about
have been different as Andy documents. The only complaint I might have
with mine is that the backlash adjustment is a little sloppy, but other
than that it's fine. I like the blade and chip-breaker...it's a lot
easier to sharpen than the A2 blades you often see with L-N and Veritas
planes.

Cliftons are _supposed_ to be the best Stanley repro made. They have the
best irons, the materials are better chosen (bronze isn't the best
choice for a bench plane in the English climate). But they still can't
make the things reliably. If you get a good one, they're an excellent
plane - as good as anything. But you've only a 50:50 chance of getting
one that's made to an acceptable standard of quality for a plane at this
price level.

I agree here...had mine been a bad one, I'd have been mightily ****ed
off.

As someone who in the past has worked on trying to improve production
quality in English factories, this really annoys me. Clifton make
aerospace tooling (hopefully better than this) and they should have no
trouble at all making a mere plane. Yet they demonstrably can't. I don't
know whether it's poor machining, or that old favourite of letting the
accountants season the castings for too short a time beforehand -- but
at this price, they shoudl be _right_ and they're not.

It would be interesting to know whether English, not Scottish, planes
have historically been really high quality. We have a different
perspective on precision in the 21st century than was common back in the
day, don't you think?

--
Joseph Crowe

Lost the one I was reading, but here's another.
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/clifton.htm

Regards.


On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:49:31 -0700, "AAvK" wrote:


Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.


Tom, may I have that Clifton website link please?

Many thanks to all for the feedback. I hadn't even considered an LV
plane, so it's back to the drawing board! The seemingly random quality
of Clifton is not what I'm looking for.

In response to a couple of questions, I've tuned up several old
Stanley bench planes (#3, #5, #8) and a small Stanley block plane (9
1/2) that I scarffed up on Ebay when no one was looking. A bit of
electrolysis, a bunch of lapping, even more iron fixing and honing
(why do folks WANT to cut nails with a plane?), and they all perform
to my satisfaction. I have an LN scrub plane that is great, though a
pain to hone, and an LN rabbet plane that I'm still learning to use
(not many rabbets will sit still long enough to shave!). So I'm no
expert, just ham fisted learner.

I do appreciate the input as the best learning is:

1. Personal experience
2. Others' personal experience

and I haven't had time to learn everything about being a woodie, not
by a long shot.

Regards.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:59:28 -0500, Tom Banes
wrote:

Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:25:16 -0500, Joseph Crowe wrote:

It would be interesting to know whether English, not Scottish, planes
have historically been really high quality.

There doesn't seem to be any quality difference between English and
Scottish. Sheffield was the mass market and somewhat built down to a
price. The better makers (Scotland, Bristol or Norris in London) were
aiming at a higher market, so took more care.

I imagine Cliftons are the best planes Sheffield has ever produced. But
old Record or Footprint aren't the target here - Lie-Nielsen is. Old
planes had easier clients than modern ones too. A journeyman would have
bought a Stanley just to make packing cases or window boxes with - but
these days that work is done with power tools, and anyone buying L-N is
using it for fine cabinetry (actual or aspirational).


--
Smert' spamionam

"Tom Banes" wrote in message snip On
Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:59:28 -0500, Tom Banes
wrote:

Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.


Woodcraft has the LN 4 1/2 on sale for $270 in a sale brochure that came
today.

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:16:02 GMT, "Lowell Holmes"
wrote:

Checking online as I pen this - thanks!

Regards.

Woodcraft has the LN 4 1/2 on sale for $270 in a sale brochure that came
today.

Tom Banes wrote in
:

Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.

Greetings....

After reading the other replies, it looks like cliftons quality is
becoming an issue, I got mine a few years ago and it has been a wonderful
plane (a #3 smoother), seeing quite a bit of use, so I must have gotten a
good one, I also have a L-N, and its been a good one as well...IMO you
should look at several planes of either brand before you drop that kind
of cash, and pick out the one you want...

If you want to look at this a different way, you may consider making a
smoother yourself, I made a japanese(...ish...:) style smoother
featuring a Steve Knight Iron for a whooooole lot less cash than either
metal plane... the kicker is once you learn how to adjust it...( there is
a learning curve ) they work just as well (if not better) than most metal
planes...they do need a little more tuning....but they feel good and are
a pleasure to use...

For those interested you can see how my smoother is made but going to:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/c/dchaynie...ake_your_own_p
lane_page.htm

Sorry for the word wrap..it should be all on one line...its really not
that hard to make a nice smoother...hope this helps...

Regards...

DCH

If you choose to go the LN route you might consider purchasing an
additional high angle frog or an additional blade that you can grind
to a different angle.This can sometimes be a great help if you wind up
planning some difficult figured wood. LN also has Toothed Blades
available for their number 4 and number 5 bench planes. I don't think
they have this blade available for the 4 1/2. This blade also can be
of some help on difficult woods. The combination of the high angle
frog and a toothed blade gives quite a few additional options for one
plane. I have used both the high angle frog and a toothed blade on
occasions and it was very helpful. There is also a toothed blade
available for the low angle jack which I have used to good effect on
some curly maple and curly cherry. To bad the planes are so expensive
but I guess you get what you pay for.

Glad to hear you like the scrub plane as it's probably my next
purchase. Don't know who's plane just yet but the LN is up near the
top of the list.


On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:29:05 -0500, Tom Banes
wrote:

Many thanks to all for the feedback. I hadn't even considered an LV
plane, so it's back to the drawing board! The seemingly random quality
of Clifton is not what I'm looking for.

In response to a couple of questions, I've tuned up several old
Stanley bench planes (#3, #5, #8) and a small Stanley block plane (9
1/2) that I scarffed up on Ebay when no one was looking. A bit of
electrolysis, a bunch of lapping, even more iron fixing and honing
(why do folks WANT to cut nails with a plane?), and they all perform
to my satisfaction. I have an LN scrub plane that is great, though a
pain to hone, and an LN rabbet plane that I'm still learning to use
(not many rabbets will sit still long enough to shave!). So I'm no
expert, just ham fisted learner.

I do appreciate the input as the best learning is:

1. Personal experience
2. Others' personal experience

and I haven't had time to learn everything about being a woodie, not
by a long shot.

Regards.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:59:28 -0500, Tom Banes
wrote:

Just about ready to break down, spend some $ and order a Lie-Nielsen 4
1/2 smoothing plane when I wandered across Clifton's web site. Price
is too close to matter much (LN = $300, Clifton $310) but all the
chatter here is on LN. Anyone used both, have an opinion?

Regards.

Ron, is the toothed blade for roughing up a substrate for veneering?
any other use?

Dave

Ron wrote:
The combination of the high angle
frog and a toothed blade gives quite a few additional options for one
plane.

Patriarch wrote in
7.136:


In a 'pretty contest', you need to add in Steve Knight's and Wayne
Anderson's work.

No offense to Steve's fine planes, but I think that Wayne's are in a
different league (as far as the 'pretty contest' goes, anyway).
Prettier than L-N even. But I think if you really want to see pretty,
check out Karl Holtey. You can buy a Norris A13 repro for the low low
price of only $6500. (Hmm, might take a while to formulate a strategy
for the missus on that one).

I own a couple of Steve's, and aspire to owning one of Wayne's.

Steve's designs work exceptionally well. So do the Veritas designs,
of which I have a LA Smoother, with the high angle blade.

But an _old_ Stanley Sweetheart 4.5, well tuned, and with a slight
back bevel, is not too shabby, unless the grain is really nasty.

I agree with you. I think a replacement iron, like the Hock blades, are
pretty important too. After final tweaking on my #3 it is handling all
the woods I throw at it, including curly and birdseye. The only
downside to it is that it doesn't really have enough weight, which makes
it sort of slide unevenly as the figure density changes in the wood. I
think a heavier plane like a 4.5 would be better, but lately I'm
fascinated with the idea of infill smoothers. I'm working on an A13
repro (not as pretty as Holtey of course!) and the sole and sides are
coming along well. Believe it or not one of the hardest things to make
is the lever cap. #@$^% bronze is just so darned hard to cut.

Patriarch,
wondering about the 12 steps...

12 steps? Naw, you don't have any problem ;-)

There are two different styles of toothed blades. They are made with a
different patterns. The toothed blade made for the scraper is used for
veneering. The blade made for the bench plane is configured
differently. I believe somewhere on the LN site they discuss this and
show what the difference is.

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:56:43 -0700, David wrote:

Ron, is the toothed blade for roughing up a substrate for veneering?
any other use?

Dave

Ron wrote:
The combination of the high angle
frog and a toothed blade gives quite a few additional options for one
plane.