Ran a test with #10 biscuits on a right angle butt joint. End grain to long
grain. Two biscuits in the joint. 24 hours later, pulled the joint apart,
took less force then I expected. The biscuits pulled apart, some left in
each piece.
So my question is, does anyone make solid wood biscuits? Google didn't seem
to have anything.
Thanks, by the way, there is much info to be gathered here. Thanks for that
too.

In article , "Rick Samuel" wrote:
Ran a test with #10 biscuits on a right angle butt joint. End grain to long
grain. Two biscuits in the joint. 24 hours later, pulled the joint apart,
took less force then I expected. The biscuits pulled apart, some left in
each piece.
So my question is, does anyone make solid wood biscuits? Google didn't seem
to have anything.

My questions a
a) What kind of biscuits are you using, anyway? AFAIK, they're *all* solid
wood.
b) Presumably, this was done as a test, a prototype for a project. Is there
some reason you couldn't use a mortise and tenon, or at least #20 biscuits?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Rick Samuel" wrote:
Ran a test with #10 biscuits on a right angle butt joint. End grain to long
grain. Two biscuits in the joint. 24 hours later, pulled the joint apart,
took less force then I expected. The biscuits pulled apart, some left in
each piece.
So my question is, does anyone make solid wood biscuits? Google didn't seem
to have anything.

My questions a
a) What kind of biscuits are you using, anyway? AFAIK, they're *all* solid
wood.
b) Presumably, this was done as a test, a prototype for a project. Is there
some reason you couldn't use a mortise and tenon, or at least #20 biscuits?


Biscuits are usually compressed birch or beech, IIRC. Biscuits are
primarily alignment devices, adding only a tiny bit to strength in a
joint. You're right: M&T would have been better, and far stronger, but
larger biscuits, and even two biscuits, one atop the other (with at
least 1/4" between slots, would have been better.

Too, there's the question of glue. What kind, what kind of clamping and
for how long?

Actually, they are comprised of BITS of compressed wood. Usually birch.

Doug Miller wrote:


a) What kind of biscuits are you using, anyway? AFAIK, they're *all* solid
wood.

"David" wrote in message
...
Actually, they are comprised of BITS of compressed wood. Usually birch.


Actually mine are solid wood. You can see streaks in the grain run all the
way across the biscuit. Breaking it exposes a straight line break along the
grain. Looking closely however reveals that the biscuits are stamped out so
that the end grain of the wood is rough for better glue absorption

"Rick Samuel" wrote in message
...
Ran a test with #10 biscuits on a right angle butt joint. End grain to
long grain. Two biscuits in the joint. 24 hours later, pulled the joint
apart, took less force then I expected. The biscuits pulled apart, some
left in each piece.
So my question is, does anyone make solid wood biscuits? Google didn't
seem to have anything.
Thanks, by the way, there is much info to be gathered here. Thanks for
that too.

I have never seen a biscuit that is not solid wood. If you had pieces left
in each half it most likely broke along the grain. If any pulled out of the
slot revealing the original slot surface you may not have had enough glue in
the slot.

David wrote:
Actually, they are comprised of BITS of compressed wood. Usually birch.

Doug Miller wrote:


a) What kind of biscuits are you using, anyway? AFAIK, they're *all*
solid wood.



See the second paragraph in the article at:

http://www.woodcraft.com/articles.aspx?articleid=243

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

(Remove -SPAM- to send email)

Leon wrote:

I have never seen a biscuit that is not solid wood. If you had pieces left
in each half it most likely broke along the grain. If any pulled out of the
slot revealing the original slot surface you may not have had enough glue in
the slot.



Lamello has come out with a new biscuit called "Fibro". It's supposed
to give high omni-directional strength and it is not humidity sensitive.
See:

http://www.lamello.com/english/fibro_e.pdf

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

(Remove -SPAM- to send email)

Biscuits are Porter Cable brand. Glue is Titebond II. Clamped 3hrs, left
24 hrs. Biscuits are not solid wood, but some kind (?) of chipped wood
pressed together. The breaks were not along any grain. No grain visible.

Were the biscuits dry prior to gluing? They have to absorb some of the
glue and expand in the slot. If the biscuits were kept in a high humidity
area, their ability to absorb glue may have been reduced.

What brand are you using?
dave

Leon wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...

Actually, they are comprised of BITS of compressed wood. Usually birch.



Actually mine are solid wood. You can see streaks in the grain run all the
way across the biscuit. Breaking it exposes a straight line break along the
grain. Looking closely however reveals that the biscuits are stamped out so
that the end grain of the wood is rough for better glue absorption

My Take on biscuits ( and I have used them quite a bit
over 10 years or so - as a hobbyist) is that they provide
a lot of lateral "hold" but not necessarily a lot of
vertical load support left to their own "devices" so to
speak. I'm not sure about "alignment" because there is
quite a bit of "play" with biscuits IMHO.

I have not had joints separate when I used biscuits.

I use them for face frames and such (much like pocket
screws) which I would like to start using but hate to start
yet another "software" item in the shop.

Usually, I cut the FF, then cut the slots. After aligning everything
on a cabinet front, I glue up the biscuit then shoot a brad
into the cabinet which holds until the glue dries.

"Until the glue dries" gets you through a lot of
time just waiting for inspiration or whatever.

I have let glue dry for days at a time. Most projects are
better for that.

I know...get the Kreg 2,000,000 etc.

Ok, Ok...

Lou

In article , Rick Samuel
wrote:

Ran a test with #10 biscuits on a right angle butt joint. End grain to long
grain. Two biscuits in the joint. 24 hours later, pulled the joint apart,
took less force then I expected. The biscuits pulled apart, some left in
each piece.
So my question is, does anyone make solid wood biscuits? Google didn't seem
to have anything.
Thanks, by the way, there is much info to be gathered here. Thanks for that
too.

In article , David wrote:
Actually, they are comprised of BITS of compressed wood. Usually birch.

No biscuit I've ever seen. You might want to look again.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , David wrote:
What brand are you using?
dave

Yeah, really. I want to know too, so I don't buy them.

Leon wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...

Actually, they are comprised of BITS of compressed wood. Usually birch.



Actually mine are solid wood. You can see streaks in the grain run all the
way across the biscuit. Breaking it exposes a straight line break along the
grain. Looking closely however reveals that the biscuits are stamped out so
that the end grain of the wood is rough for better glue absorption



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , "Rick Samuel" wrote:
Biscuits are Porter Cable brand.

P-C biscuits are solid wood, with the grain running diagonally across the
biscuit. They're stamped and compressed, not machined, but they *are* solid
wood.

Glue is Titebond II. Clamped 3hrs, left
24 hrs. Biscuits are not solid wood, but some kind (?) of chipped wood
pressed together. The breaks were not along any grain. No grain visible.

Look again. You missed it the first time.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

I looked again. I see what you mean. I must have misunderstood a
description that I read online today. My PC biscuits are compressed (of
course), but appear to be from a single piece of wood. I'll sleep well
tonight knowing the truth of the matter.

Dave

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , David wrote:

Actually, they are comprised of BITS of compressed wood. Usually birch.


No biscuit I've ever seen. You might want to look again.

PC brand biscuits are of lower quality than is acceptable for a commercial
shop. You want Lamello.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Rick Samuel" wrote in message
...
Biscuits are Porter Cable brand. Glue is Titebond II. Clamped 3hrs, left
24 hrs. Biscuits are not solid wood, but some kind (?) of chipped wood
pressed together. The breaks were not along any grain. No grain visible.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:30:39 -0500, "Rick Samuel" wrote:

Ran a test with #10 biscuits on a right angle butt joint. End grain to long
grain. Two biscuits in the joint. 24 hours later, pulled the joint apart,
took less force then I expected. The biscuits pulled apart, some left in
each piece.
So my question is, does anyone make solid wood biscuits? Google didn't seem
to have anything.
Thanks, by the way, there is much info to be gathered here. Thanks for that
too.

most biscuits are very dry, very compressed wood fibers, usually beech..
the theory is, when the moisture in the glue hits them, they expand..
I can buy into this easily, after my one attempt at gluing one side of a joint
first, as I would do with dowels.. the biscuit didn't fit in the slot on the
other piece any more..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 20:55:42 -0700, David wrote:

I looked again. I see what you mean. I must have misunderstood a
description that I read online today. My PC biscuits are compressed (of
course), but appear to be from a single piece of wood. I'll sleep well
tonight knowing the truth of the matter.

Dave

maybe they have a bunch of elves running them through those food dehydrators
that they have infomercials for?



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

In article ,
Rick Samuel wrote:
Ran a test with #10 biscuits on a right angle butt joint. End grain to long
grain. Two biscuits in the joint. 24 hours later, pulled the joint apart,
took less force then I expected. The biscuits pulled apart, some left in
each piece.
So my question is, does anyone make solid wood biscuits? Google didn't seem
to have anything.
Thanks, by the way, there is much info to be gathered here. Thanks for that
too.



You didn't forget the glue, did you? (kidding) But, it does sound like
there was a problem with the glue or gluing technique used. BTW,
normal biscuits ARE made from solid wood, usually beech, that is
machine compressed so that they expand after absorbing moisture from
glue or surrounding wood.
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

In article ,
David wrote:
Actually, they are comprised of BITS of compressed wood. Usually birch.

Well, if you call a single bicuit-sized piece of solid wood a BIT...

But they ARE made from a single piece of wood, they are NOT made like
particle board or OSB if that is what you are asserting. And usually
from beech.





--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

To the OP, by any chance are you using a Ryobi biscuit joiner?



--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

see my later post

Dave

Lawrence Wasserman wrote:

In article ,
David wrote:

Actually, they are comprised of BITS of compressed wood. Usually birch.


Well, if you call a single bicuit-sized piece of solid wood a BIT...

But they ARE made from a single piece of wood, they are NOT made like
particle board or OSB if that is what you are asserting. And usually
from beech.

This does sound like a mechanical problem, IMO. Also PC biscuits are CRAP.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Lawrence Wasserman" wrote in message
...
To the OP, by any chance are you using a Ryobi biscuit joiner?



--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 19:07:49 GMT, (Lawrence
Wasserman) wrote:

To the OP, by any chance are you using a Ryobi biscuit joiner?

or a Harbor Freight special, like my first one.. rofl


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

In article , "Rumpty" wrote:
This does sound like a mechanical problem, IMO. Also PC biscuits are CRAP.

The only problem I've noticed with them is inconsistent thickness, which is
easily solved with a wastebasket. What other problems are you aware of?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Thickness as you say, imperfect cuts and Loose jagged edges. Lamellos are
all the same thickness and no jagged edges.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Rumpty"
wrote:
This does sound like a mechanical problem, IMO. Also PC biscuits are
CRAP.

The only problem I've noticed with them is inconsistent thickness, which
is
easily solved with a wastebasket. What other problems are you aware of?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , "Rumpty" wrote:
Thickness as you say, imperfect cuts and Loose jagged edges. Lamellos are
all the same thickness and no jagged edges.

I've observed the imperfect cuts and loose jagged edges too, but haven't found
them to be problems.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?