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SCA ARMOUR
http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm
I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. JOAT A highbrow is a person educated beyond his intelligence. - Brander Matthews |
J T wrote:
http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. But how well would plywood work? Seems to me that it would be pretty brittle for that particular use. JOAT A highbrow is a person educated beyond his intelligence. - Brander Matthews -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
Well, speaking as a guy who has been fighting for 22 years, plywood
wouldn't hold up at all. A 3/4" plywood shield is pretty much disposable - it'll last *maybe* a season of fighting. We're really hitting each other - 12 gauge helmets dent eventually, 14 and 16 gauge dents pretty much immediately. 1/8" plywood wouldn't even last one practice. Also, the plastic is made (or at least it can be) to look like 'period' materials - that would mean laquered steel or leather that has been waxed or boiled for stiffness. Plywood would look terrible. Avraham huscarl, Calontir (that means I'm a "don't screw with him, it'll hurt" sort of fighter from the middle of the country) On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:49:44 -0400, (J T) wrote: http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. JOAT A highbrow is a person educated beyond his intelligence. - Brander Matthews |
Avraham wrote:
Well, speaking as a guy who has been fighting for 22 years, plywood wouldn't hold up at all. A 3/4" plywood shield is pretty much disposable - it'll last *maybe* a season of fighting. If you want something that is probably less than 1/2 the weight of a piece of 3/4" ply and can't be penetrated by a copper jacketed .357 mag, contact me off list. I'll tell you how to make one. Lew |
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:56:51 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote: Avraham wrote: Well, speaking as a guy who has been fighting for 22 years, plywood wouldn't hold up at all. A 3/4" plywood shield is pretty much disposable - it'll last *maybe* a season of fighting. If you want something that is probably less than 1/2 the weight of a piece of 3/4" ply and can't be penetrated by a copper jacketed .357 mag, contact me off list. I'll tell you how to make one. Lew Thanks, but that's OK. Most of our shields are made of T6 aluminum, and some of us (like me!) are moving to shields made of the same materials as originally used, which brings us back to the actual subject of the newsgroup. I bought a Grizzly 14" bandsaw and riser block so I could resaw basswood (pretty much the same as European Linwood, if not exact) and make a two-layer laminated shield. :) Avraham |
J T wrote:
Wed, Apr 27, 2005, 10:06pm (EDT-1) (Avraham) says: Well, speaking as a guy who has been fighting for 22 years, plywood wouldn't hold up at all. snip My Gods, I'm getting sucked back in the group, I post, then see a thread, and post a response. Aaach. Speaking as a guy who ain't about to go around letting people beat on me without trying to give them some serious damage in return, I never figured anyone would wear them to get beat on in. Personally, before I would run around letting people beat on me, I'd make myself some real armour, including a "real" helmet, out of good quality steel, stuff able to take repeated hits from a real sword, and hold up. While steel plate armor has its advantages, it's also heavy and unless it's very carefully crafted it impedes your motion. If you're not both in very good condition and practiced at performing acrobatics in armor, once they get you down you're done for. A good, fitted suit of plate armor today costs thousands of dollars. Making it yourself might be an interesting exercise, but if you get to where you can make some that you can actually fight in you may find that you can make more as an armorer than you do in your day job. Bear in mind that if it's not fitted right it can damage you all by itself when it takes a blow. And I think you'll find that lamellar armor works very nicely. The Samurai certainly seemed to think so. The plastic plates would be a viable substitute for boiled leather lamellae IMO, and boiled leather was surprisingly effective against "real swords". By the way, don't assume that the bokken is not a "real sword". How many swordmasters with steel swords did Musashi kill with one? Even better, would be standing back with a trusty catapult, and buckets of hot sand. Hehehe JOAT A highbrow is a person educated beyond his intelligence. - Brander Matthews -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
In article ,
Avraham wrote: Well, speaking as a guy who has been fighting for 22 years, I'll raise you a couple years, but agree with the below, plus 3/4 just plain weighs toooooo much. plywood wouldn't hold up at all. A 3/4" plywood shield is pretty much disposable - it'll last *maybe* a season of fighting. We're really hitting each other - 12 gauge helmets dent eventually, 14 and 16 gauge dents pretty much immediately. 1/8" plywood wouldn't even last one practice. Also, the plastic is made (or at least it can be) to look like 'period' materials - that would mean laquered steel or leather that has been waxed or boiled for stiffness. Plywood would look terrible. Avraham huscarl, Calontir (that means I'm a "don't screw with him, it'll hurt" sort of fighter from the middle of the country) I also know people that have bought/made this type of armor, the plastic plates cut the cord and it keeps falling apart. Repairable, but a pain in the, ah repair time. As for shields I have had excellent results from the following method. I take a sheet of 1/8 in door skin and attach (nail) it to a shield press. Then fiberglass the face. Once it is dry, remove and cut to shape. Then fiberglass the back and twice more on the face. Lastly round the edges and fiberglass that. The shield is lighter and lasts for years (5+ years very active) PS, I spent time with two of your ex-pats, Earl Cire and Countess Elizabeth -- -------------------------------------------------------- Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read RV and Camping FAQ can be found at http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv |
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 05:33:25 -0700, Ralph E Lindberg
wrote: In article , Avraham wrote: Well, speaking as a guy who has been fighting for 22 years, I'll raise you a couple years, but agree with the below, plus 3/4 just plain weighs toooooo much. plywood wouldn't hold up at all. A 3/4" plywood shield is pretty much disposable - it'll last *maybe* a season of fighting. We're really hitting each other - 12 gauge helmets dent eventually, 14 and 16 gauge dents pretty much immediately. 1/8" plywood wouldn't even last one practice. Also, the plastic is made (or at least it can be) to look like 'period' materials - that would mean laquered steel or leather that has been waxed or boiled for stiffness. Plywood would look terrible. Avraham huscarl, Calontir (that means I'm a "don't screw with him, it'll hurt" sort of fighter from the middle of the country) I also know people that have bought/made this type of armor, the plastic plates cut the cord and it keeps falling apart. Repairable, but a pain in the, ah repair time. As for shields I have had excellent results from the following method. I take a sheet of 1/8 in door skin and attach (nail) it to a shield press. Then fiberglass the face. Once it is dry, remove and cut to shape. Then fiberglass the back and twice more on the face. Lastly round the edges and fiberglass that. The shield is lighter and lasts for years (5+ years very active) PS, I spent time with two of your ex-pats, Earl Cire and Countess Elizabeth Are you still up in An Tir? I'm surprised even fiberglassed plywood stands up the blow strength there. My period-materials laminated shield does fine here, but I don't know how it would do out there. Avraham huscarl, Calontir |
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You guys want light weight, sword proof armour? Here's some that
pretty well guarantees the wearer isn't gonna get hurt by a sword. This is more along my type of thing. http://www.chainmail.com/chainmall/imagenew/ts7.jpg JOAT A highbrow is a person educated beyond his intelligence. - Brander Matthews |
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:49:44 -0400, (J T)
wrote: http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. Never was a member of the SCA, but I've met plenty of folks who were (or claimed to be, who really knows?) and the impression I got was that they were not allowed to use plastic armor in any case, as it was not availble during the periods of time they were re-enacting. Most of the abovementioned folks made armor from leather soaked in parafin wax or (if they were *really* into it) hand-hammered iron plates. But you're right in any case- plywood would be kinda neat. BTW, I thought you had left the group? :) Aut inveniam viam aut faciam |
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:14:03 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote: J T wrote: http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. But how well would plywood work? Seems to me that it would be pretty brittle for that particular use. IIRC, the SCA doesn't use actual swords for re-enactment, they use rattan sticks. Plywood might work okay for that. And, of course, it would work great for walking around Rennaisance fairs and the like. Aut inveniam viam aut faciam |
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 02:18:23 -0400, (J T)
wrote: Wed, Apr 27, 2005, 10:06pm (EDT-1) (Avraham) says: Well, speaking as a guy who has been fighting for 22 years, plywood wouldn't hold up at all. snip My Gods, I'm getting sucked back in the group, I post, then see a thread, and post a response. Aaach. Speaking as a guy who ain't about to go around letting people beat on me without trying to give them some serious damage in return, I never figured anyone would wear them to get beat on in. Personally, before I would run around letting people beat on me, I'd make myself some real armour, including a "real" helmet, out of good quality steel, stuff able to take repeated hits from a real sword, and hold up. Even better, would be standing back with a trusty catapult, and buckets of hot sand. Hehehe Heh, JOAT, I never appreciated you until just now. :) Aut inveniam viam aut faciam |
In article ,
(J T) wrote: Thu, Apr 28, 2005, 6:56am (EDT-1) (Avraham) claims: I *do* wear a real helmet, made of good quality steel. You can't (for a practical amount of money, anyway) make a helmet that won't dent eventually and still be able to wear it and move your head around. I'll admit, it's not a hobby for everyone. On the other hand, we're really trying NOT to hurt each other - the person on the other side of the field is a friend and opponent, not an enemy. Avraham Well, I won't try to prove it, but I've got an idea or two for a helmet that would hold up, and not be excessively heavy. Thing is, I'd be more worried about my brain churning around, from getting hit in the head, than the helmet denting. Ah, no Weight is required, at least in the helmet. The mass is part of what absorbs the energy -- -------------------------------------------------------- Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read RV and Camping FAQ can be found at http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv |
In article ,
Avraham wrote: .... Are you still up in An Tir? I'm surprised even fiberglassed plywood stands up the blow strength there. My period-materials laminated shield does fine here, but I don't know how it would do out there. Avraham huscarl, Calontir Yup, actually there as been some effort to reduce the level of blows. When Cire came back from a Gulf War, having gotten in trouble for what they thought was an excessive blow we all had a little laugh. Cire is not known for real hard hits, just solid firm ones. BTW, do you know about the Yahoo-Group for period/sca/medieval wood-working? TTFN Ralph (aka Ralg, insert alphabet soup here) -- -------------------------------------------------------- Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read RV and Camping FAQ can be found at http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv |
Prometheus wrote:
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:14:03 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: J T wrote: http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. But how well would plywood work? Seems to me that it would be pretty brittle for that particular use. IIRC, the SCA doesn't use actual swords for re-enactment, they use rattan sticks. Plywood might work okay for that. And, of course, it would work great for walking around Rennaisance fairs and the like. Aut inveniam viam aut faciam And you were on about how making a door header too strong would cause high point stresses? Take a hammer, wang on a piece of 1/8" ply supported by string tied to holes in the corners for a while, let us know how you make out. Talk about high point stresses. If you study the history of Japan you will find that those rattan sticks properly handled are quite dangerous. It's becoming clear that you just like to argue. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
Prometheus wrote:
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:49:44 -0400, (J T) wrote: http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. Never was a member of the SCA, but I've met plenty of folks who were (or claimed to be, who really knows?) and the impression I got was that they were not allowed to use plastic armor in any case, as it was not availble during the periods of time they were re-enacting. Most of the abovementioned folks made armor from leather soaked in parafin wax or (if they were *really* into it) hand-hammered iron plates. But you're right in any case- plywood would be kinda neat. There are plenty of SCA sites on the Web that discuss this. Plastic is a bit controversial but not in general prohibited. Safety first--if it's the only way you can afford to engage in combat without getting hurt then so be it. There are some other kinds of combat sport that require authenticity, but SCA isn't all about combat, that's just one of their activities, and they are not the "Society for Maintaining Historically Accurate Anachronism", they are the "Society for _Creative_ Anachronism". You might be confusing SCA with reenactment groups, which are much pickier about such things. BTW, I thought you had left the group? :) Aut inveniam viam aut faciam -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:21:35 -0700, Ralph E Lindberg
wrote: In article , (J T) wrote: Thu, Apr 28, 2005, 6:56am (EDT-1) (Avraham) claims: I *do* wear a real helmet, made of good quality steel. You can't (for a practical amount of money, anyway) make a helmet that won't dent eventually and still be able to wear it and move your head around. I'll admit, it's not a hobby for everyone. On the other hand, we're really trying NOT to hurt each other - the person on the other side of the field is a friend and opponent, not an enemy. Avraham Well, I won't try to prove it, but I've got an idea or two for a helmet that would hold up, and not be excessively heavy. Thing is, I'd be more worried about my brain churning around, from getting hit in the head, than the helmet denting. Ah, no Weight is required, at least in the helmet. The mass is part of what absorbs the energy Add a comma there, please! G That would be "Ah, no, weight is required..." There actually isn't a minimum by rule, but practially the helmets weight about 12+ pounds. Avraham |
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:25:39 -0700, Ralph E Lindberg
wrote: In article , Avraham wrote: ... Are you still up in An Tir? I'm surprised even fiberglassed plywood stands up the blow strength there. My period-materials laminated shield does fine here, but I don't know how it would do out there. Avraham huscarl, Calontir Yup, actually there as been some effort to reduce the level of blows. When Cire came back from a Gulf War, having gotten in trouble for what they thought was an excessive blow we all had a little laugh. Cire is not known for real hard hits, just solid firm ones. BTW, do you know about the Yahoo-Group for period/sca/medieval wood-working? TTFN Ralph (aka Ralg, insert alphabet soup here) No, I didn't know about it. I'm really, really on enough Yahoo groups, though, and I don't do much period work, just period things with modern tools. Avraham |
In article ,
J. Clarke wrote: Prometheus wrote: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:49:44 -0400, (J T) wrote: http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. Never was a member of the SCA, but I've met plenty of folks who were (or claimed to be, who really knows?) and the impression I got was that they were not allowed to use plastic armor in any case, as it was not availble during the periods of time they were re-enacting. Most of the abovementioned folks made armor from leather soaked in parafin wax or (if they were *really* into it) hand-hammered iron plates. But you're right in any case- plywood would be kinda neat. There are plenty of SCA sites on the Web that discuss this. Plastic is a bit controversial but not in general prohibited. Safety first--if it's the only way you can afford to engage in combat without getting hurt then so be it. There are some other kinds of combat sport that require authenticity, but SCA isn't all about combat, that's just one of their activities, and they are not the "Society for Maintaining Historically Accurate Anachronism", they are the "Society for _Creative_ Anachronism". And, after all, what is *more* _anacronistic_ than using plastic for medieval armour? Except, maybe, "A Darth Vader in King Arthur's Court", with apologies to Mark Twain. grin |
Avraham wrote:
: Thanks, but that's OK. Most of our shields are made of T6 aluminum, : and some of us (like me!) are moving to shields made of the same : materials as originally used, which brings us back to the actual : subject of the newsgroup. I bought a Grizzly 14" bandsaw and riser : block so I could resaw basswood (pretty much the same as European : Linwood, if not exact) and make a two-layer laminated shield. :) : Avraham Doesn't basswood dent like crazy? It's a pretty soft wood. -- Andy Barss |
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:25:59 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote: Avraham wrote: : Thanks, but that's OK. Most of our shields are made of T6 aluminum, : and some of us (like me!) are moving to shields made of the same : materials as originally used, which brings us back to the actual : subject of the newsgroup. I bought a Grizzly 14" bandsaw and riser : block so I could resaw basswood (pretty much the same as European : Linwood, if not exact) and make a two-layer laminated shield. :) : Avraham Doesn't basswood dent like crazy? It's a pretty soft wood. -- Andy Barss Shields aren't really meant to be permanent, or at least they weren't 1100 years ago (the time the equipment I'm reproducing is from ). It actually holds up surprisingly well - the only problem my first one is having is the steel rim is coming off. I need to use a different style. Avraham |
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In article ,
Lee DeRaud wrote: On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:40:19 -0000, (Robert Bonomi) wrote: In article , J. Clarke wrote: There are some other kinds of combat sport that require authenticity, but SCA isn't all about combat, that's just one of their activities, and they are not the "Society for Maintaining Historically Accurate Anachronism", they are the "Society for _Creative_ Anachronism". And, after all, what is *more* _anacronistic_ than using plastic for medieval armour? Well, carbon-fiber armor and a titanium-edged composite sword to go with it might raise a few eyebrows... (thinking of those tuxes that are printed on tee-shirts) Chain-mail photo-printed on a long-sleeve shirt, worn over Kelvar undies? |
In article ,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote: ..... And, after all, what is *more* _anacronistic_ than using plastic for medieval armour? Except, maybe, "A Darth Vader in King Arthur's Court", with apologies to Mark Twain. grin Well, we've always figured we could build a Darth Vader style helm and make it combat legal too. After all it is based on an actual, real, medieval helm -- Personal email 's a SPAM trap) |
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In article ,
Avraham wrote: No, I didn't know about it. I'm really, really on enough Yahoo groups, though, and I don't do much period work, just period things with modern tools. Avraham There are a bunch-o-us that use power and/or hand, according to the best methods we know. Actually I would say the majority aren't Neander's. It's like costumers, how many of them hand sew everything? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/ -- Personal email 's a SPAM trap) |
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On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:28:14 -0700, Ralph Lindberg
wrote: In article , Avraham wrote: No, I didn't know about it. I'm really, really on enough Yahoo groups, though, and I don't do much period work, just period things with modern tools. Avraham There are a bunch-o-us that use power and/or hand, according to the best methods we know. Actually I would say the majority aren't Neander's. It's like costumers, how many of them hand sew everything? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/ I've applied, it should be interesting. Avraham |
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:36:43 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote: Prometheus wrote: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:14:03 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: J T wrote: http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. But how well would plywood work? Seems to me that it would be pretty brittle for that particular use. IIRC, the SCA doesn't use actual swords for re-enactment, they use rattan sticks. Plywood might work okay for that. And, of course, it would work great for walking around Rennaisance fairs and the like. Aut inveniam viam aut faciam And you were on about how making a door header too strong would cause high point stresses? That wasn't me, fella. I missed a part about the application because I was skimming, but I was the guy that said the OP should make sure he had the right material, as he didn't seem sure what he was doing. All I saw was the bit about making a "beam" and I somehow got it into my head that he might be trying to make a hoist. FWIW, a building collapsing becuase of poor engineering is liable to kill a guy- a piece of plywood splintering on your chest (or other body part) because you intentionally let someone hit you with a stick is likely to just hurt a lot and get somebody teased a bit. Different levels of caution certainly apply in my mind. Take a hammer, wang on a piece of 1/8" ply supported by string tied to holes in the corners for a while, let us know how you make out. Talk about high point stresses. If you study the history of Japan you will find that those rattan sticks properly handled are quite dangerous. Well sure, if a trained person is using one. Somehow I doubt that plastic would do a whole lot better in that case then anyhow. It's becoming clear that you just like to argue. Well, that *is* largely true. I do enjoy argument- but at least I try to keep things in context and on-topic, which is more than you can say for a lot of folks in a lot of venues. Aut inveniam viam aut faciam |
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:43:41 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote: Prometheus wrote: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:49:44 -0400, (J T) wrote: http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. Never was a member of the SCA, but I've met plenty of folks who were (or claimed to be, who really knows?) and the impression I got was that they were not allowed to use plastic armor in any case, as it was not availble during the periods of time they were re-enacting. Most of the abovementioned folks made armor from leather soaked in parafin wax or (if they were *really* into it) hand-hammered iron plates. But you're right in any case- plywood would be kinda neat. There are plenty of SCA sites on the Web that discuss this. Plastic is a bit controversial but not in general prohibited. Safety first--if it's the only way you can afford to engage in combat without getting hurt then so be it. There are some other kinds of combat sport that require authenticity, but SCA isn't all about combat, that's just one of their activities, and they are not the "Society for Maintaining Historically Accurate Anachronism", they are the "Society for _Creative_ Anachronism". You might be confusing SCA with reenactment groups, which are much pickier about such things. That's certainly possible. Like I said, I was never into that- I just knew a lot of folks who went on and on about it. I believe the event they liked to refer to most often was called "Pensic" (Sp?) Aut inveniam viam aut faciam |
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:39:20 -0500, Prometheus
wrote: On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:43:41 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: Prometheus wrote: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:49:44 -0400, (J T) wrote: http://www.brotherguido.com/armor/default.htm I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own out of maybe 1/8" plywood, they give the sizes, and looks like the lacing instructions are complete enough. Plastic? Bah. Never was a member of the SCA, but I've met plenty of folks who were (or claimed to be, who really knows?) and the impression I got was that they were not allowed to use plastic armor in any case, as it was not availble during the periods of time they were re-enacting. Most of the abovementioned folks made armor from leather soaked in parafin wax or (if they were *really* into it) hand-hammered iron plates. But you're right in any case- plywood would be kinda neat. There are plenty of SCA sites on the Web that discuss this. Plastic is a bit controversial but not in general prohibited. Safety first--if it's the only way you can afford to engage in combat without getting hurt then so be it. There are some other kinds of combat sport that require authenticity, but SCA isn't all about combat, that's just one of their activities, and they are not the "Society for Maintaining Historically Accurate Anachronism", they are the "Society for _Creative_ Anachronism". You might be confusing SCA with reenactment groups, which are much pickier about such things. That's certainly possible. Like I said, I was never into that- I just knew a lot of folks who went on and on about it. I believe the event they liked to refer to most often was called "Pensic" (Sp?) Aut inveniam viam aut faciam Pennsic. 12,000 or so of your closest friends camping for a week or three in the Pennsylvania summer. It's definitely an experience. Avraham |
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:08:31 -0500, the inscrutable Avraham
spake: --snip-- Pennsic. 12,000 or so of your closest friends camping for a week or three in the Pennsylvania summer. It's definitely an experience. So was the California Jam in 1974, with 200,000 of my closest friends. http://valseven.tripod.com/ladiesofthelake2/id28.html Emerson, Lake, and Palmer with QUAD sound and I was within 20' of dead center while watching Keith Emerson spin on his piano! What a trip THAT was! --== May The Angst Be With You! ==-- -Yoda, on a bad day -- http://diversify.com Ending Your Web Page Angst. |
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