Need to find some 8 ft. garage/shop lights--any suggestions?
Thanks Chris

If you are looking for the fluorescent tubes, I think I have seen them
at Home Depot. If you are looking for the lamp assemblies, may I
suggest 2 - 4 footers? The 4 foot tubes are cheaper and more available.

"Christopher Shoenleben" wrote in message
Need to find some 8 ft. garage/shop lights--any suggestions?

A store perhaps?

In regards to Dvorak's rant about the dumbing down of North Americans, I
don't think it's anything of the sort. It's nothing more than sheer
laziness. Too lazy to look for themselves, so they ask a question like the
one above hoping that someone else will do the work for them.

Actually he's paying rec.woodworking member a compliment. The posting
should have read:

"Hey wreckers, I know I can go to Home Deport or Lowes and gets some 8
ft flourescent lights. But, I was wondering if you folks could give me
some tips, reassurances, or point me to the cheapest place (maybe on
the net)?"

Is that what you meant to say, Christopher?

If America is dumbing down it because of the zeal of educators to teach
to the lowest common denominator and the huge influx on non-English
speakers.

If American's are lazy, then it's because labor unions have driven
wages high while driving work low.

Now let's see how many flames those statements provoke.....

If you live in a cold climate you should make sure the ballast is
electrostaic, not magnetic.....or maybe I have that switched...Anyway,
one is better in the cold.

thanks for the advise--in regards to the other crap said I just thought
someone would have a online source that I could look at. Ignorance is in the
eye of the beholder--don't look in the mirror.
"Never Enough Money" wrote in message
oups.com...
If you live in a cold climate you should make sure the ballast is
electrostaic, not magnetic.....or maybe I have that switched...Anyway,
one is better in the cold.

"Christopher Shoenleben" wrote in message
link.net...
Need to find some 8 ft. garage/shop lights--any suggestions?
Thanks Chris



Chris, disregard the smart-ass comments from others. The question is not as
dumb as it might seem. First off, I much prefer 8' tubes over the 4's. The
stupid little pins on the 4's are a PITA. The fixtures tend to be junk
compared to the more expensive 8's as well. Yes, the 8's cost more for the
tubes, but they last many times longer than the 4's and cost less in the
long run. I've got 4 years, and a shop relocation, on these tubes and have
not burned one out yet. There is a reason why commercial buildings use the
8's, where labor to change tubes is a big factor.

As for finding them, I outfitted my whole shop with discards from store
remodeling. Cost me nothing for 8 fixtures which I mounted in 4 rows of 2
each. In California, and I assume other locales as well, remodeling
requires code upgrade to energy efficient fixtures. Find someone doing
remodels of commercial buildings and you can probably get all the old
fixtures for free. They will end up in a dumpster anyway.

--
Bill Pounds
http://www.billpounds.com/woodshop

"Christopher Shoenleben" wrote in message
thanks for the advise--in regards to the other crap said I just thought
someone would have a online source that I could look at. Ignorance is in
the
eye of the beholder--don't look in the mirror.

No, ignorance is not making the least bit of effort to explain yourself
properly. As well as being a critical SOB once in awhile, I do go out of my
way to help someone with a suggestion when I can. Instead of saying that you
need to find some 8ft. shop lights, you could just as well have said that
you need to find some water. Next time, state what type of water, what grade
of quality you're looking for and if anyone has a replacement suggestion for
the water. If you can't at least do that, then expect the smart-ass
comments.

Agree with Pounds on Wood, I got 8 4' fixtures and tubes when a local
office had to remodel. While I would prefer 8's, I can't complain about
the price(free), and I got a couple dozen extra tubes with the
fixtures. Much improves the shop to spread the light around, and I
installed pull chain switches on those I would not be needing on a
regular basis.
My father was a mechanical engineer for the state (CA), and his answer
as to how to light a work space was, if you can hold your hand out flat
over the work surface at 12" high and see a shadow, you don't have the
lights positioned right. Another factor is avoiding glare off shiny
tool surfaces.

Smart ass-comments, who needs 'em? Oh wait, did I just make a smart-ass
comment?

Lighten up, Upscale.

Never Enough Money wrote:
Actually he's paying rec.woodworking member a compliment. The posting
should have read:

"Hey wreckers, I know I can go to Home Deport or Lowes and gets some 8
ft flourescent lights. But, I was wondering if you folks could give me
some tips, reassurances, or point me to the cheapest place (maybe on
the net)?"

Is that what you meant to say, Christopher?

If America is dumbing down it because of the zeal of educators to teach
to the lowest common denominator and the huge influx on non-English
speakers.

If American's are lazy, then it's because labor unions have driven
wages high while driving work low.

Wrong. Not a flame but a first hand education. Many of my relatives are/were blue collar General
Motors employees & I was once employed by GM as a GMI (General Motors Institute) student. As a
student sponsored by GM Truck & Bus I was on the team to meet weekly with the plant manager of
Plant 2 in Pontiac, MI. where they used to make over the road Astro tractors. All of these
students were directly out of high school with the exception of myself. 22 years old due to
affirmative action quotas so I had been in the general work force for a few years. I asked the
plant manager directly (to the dismay of the sponsor liaison) - why doesn't GM get rid of the
lazys, drunks, druggies, etc. I know many hard workers that would gladly take their places. I
had tried myself for 4 years to get into GM after high school - it's not WHAT you know, it's WHO
you b__w. The plant manager proceeded to explain that it's far CHEAPER to keep these miscreants
on the payrolls than to employ better people. Reason being the good employees would have genuine
grievances at times & file them accordingly (ergonomics, dangerous working conditions, etc.). GM
knows these grievances are valid but very expensive to address so they negotiate with the union
to keep these losers if they are allowed to THROW AWAY many grievances. This manager seemed
almost PROUD to explain the facts of GM manufacturing life to me & the other students. Many
people don't know some union representatives (those in the office) are paid 7 days a week
regardless of what they actually work. Most unions are in the back pockets of corporate America.
Here's another great situation. A former boss of mine was once a Pontiac Motors engineer. Very
intelligent guy, parents were Phd's. He was given a task to design the rear deck lid hinges,
mechanicals, etc. for a Pontiac car. He submitted his design to his supervisor who studied the
design & asked him if he REALLY wanted to submit it. My boss reviewed his work & asked if there
was something wrong with his ideas. His boss said no, actually it was TOO good - he would not be
able to submit improvements later down the road & receive bonuses for these improvements.

I'm so sick of the unknowing blaming all the ills of the US workplace on unions, lazy workers,
etc. Start looking where you should, at the top - management. There are laws & rules in effect
that govern blue collar conduct, union or not. It is management's responsibility to enforce
these policies. Blue collar or white, it comes down to this - DO YOUR JOB!!!! I'm not in a union
nor do I feel I want to belong in one. When you see it first hand, you'll understand.

Now let's see how many flames those statements provoke.....

"Stephen Young" wrote in message

I'm so sick of the unknowing blaming all the ills of the US workplace on
unions, lazy workers, etc. Start looking where you should, at the top -
management. There are laws & rules in effect that govern blue collar
conduct, union or not. It is management's responsibility to enforce these
policies. Blue collar or white, it comes down to this - DO YOUR JOB!!!!
I'm not in a union nor do I feel I want to belong in one. When you see it
first hand, you'll understand.

Now let's see how many flames those statements provoke.....


Neither side is wearing a white hat here. Unions vary in quality but most
seem to no longer represent the worker, but only care about the union and
its officers. I've been in meetings with the union reps when the contract
was coming up. The rep laid out the entire scenario of what he was going to
ask for, what he would settle for and what he NEEDED for the union or he
could not agree to a contract. Negotiations were a farce. The workers
thought he was fighting for them, but it was a big show.

OTOH, before unions labor was often exploited by management and working
conditions were horrid. They turned the tables in many cases and went too
far, thus the featherbedding and inability to get rid of useless people on
the payroll.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Stephen Young" wrote in message

I'm so sick of the unknowing blaming all the ills of the US workplace on
unions, lazy workers, etc. Start looking where you should, at the top -
management. There are laws & rules in effect that govern blue collar
conduct, union or not. It is management's responsibility to enforce these
policies. Blue collar or white, it comes down to this - DO YOUR JOB!!!!
I'm not in a union nor do I feel I want to belong in one. When you see it
first hand, you'll understand.

Now let's see how many flames those statements provoke.....



Neither side is wearing a white hat here. Unions vary in quality but most
seem to no longer represent the worker, but only care about the union and
its officers. I've been in meetings with the union reps when the contract
was coming up. The rep laid out the entire scenario of what he was going to
ask for, what he would settle for and what he NEEDED for the union or he
could not agree to a contract. Negotiations were a farce. The workers
thought he was fighting for them, but it was a big show.

OTOH, before unions labor was often exploited by management and working
conditions were horrid. They turned the tables in many cases and went too
far, thus the featherbedding and inability to get rid of useless people on
the payroll.


Not saying either side is faultless. Just asking why do so many people feel there isn't a way to
try to right the ship? Status quo is how we must go? Good employees see bad ones get away with
just about anything & maybe get a slap on the wrist. Now they are at fault for saying anything
negative about the workplace? I hear this constantly where I work - don't worry about problems
around you, just do your work and shut up. Try to help out to improve efficiencies &
productivity & you're the bad guy according to management. I like to think I'm trying to make my
workplace remain in business for another day. Workers don't get to change/enforce policies. The
emperor has no clothes.

I think you helped me make my case. Thanks!

Although labor unions once served a purpose, they have become greedy
selfish entities. Yes, CEO do get paid too much when compared to the
rank and file -- maybe. CEO are paid too little when compared to
professional atheletes. Just my opinion.

Unions are one of the major causes that jobs have gone overseas. Thye
continues to rachet up wages and benifits to unrealistic levels.

What makes you think I'm "unknowing". The fact that you worked at GM
and had some exposure to a union doesn't make you an expert.

Union's have the constant tiresome mantra -- look at top management.
Now there's where I have the same credientials you have. I'm part of
top management and it's not so easy.

Do you work in a union shop?

Never Enough Money wrote:
Do you work in a union shop?

No I don't. Many members of my family do however. I did work at a place for 6 months that was a
Teamsters plant - what a joke. Again, the union supported bottom feeders.

"Stephen Young" wrote in message
news
Never Enough Money wrote:
Do you work in a union shop?

No I don't. Many members of my family do however. I did work at a place
for 6 months that was a Teamsters plant - what a joke. Again, the union
supported bottom feeders.

One of the problems with present union rules (and many large non-union
businesses) is everyone is the job makes the same money. Hard to reward the
top producers as it is to get rid of the low end. Small shops have more
leeway and individuals are noticed more.

Stephen Young wrote:

Never Enough Money wrote:

I think you helped me make my case. Thanks!
Don't think so.

Although labor unions once served a purpose, they have become greedy
selfish entities. Yes, CEO do get paid too much when compared to the
rank and file -- maybe.
Ever hear of Enron, Worldcom, etc. NO CEO is worth what these jokers get.
CEO are paid too little when compared to
professional atheletes. Just my opinion.
Professional athletes? Poor analogy - entertainment industry = way
inflated $.

Unions are one of the major causes that jobs have gone overseas. Thye
continues to rachet up wages and benifits to unrealistic levels.


What makes you think I'm "unknowing".

You are obviously not aware of what goes on in a union today.
The fact that you worked at GM
and had some exposure to a union doesn't make you an expert.

Never said I was - telling of my experiences & many relatives'
experiences.

Union's have the constant tiresome mantra -- look at top management.

They constantly say it because it's true & they can't fire management.
Now there's where I have the same credientials you have. I'm part of
top management and it's not so easy.

All I keep hearing from management is "You have to do more in less time
with less supplies & hardly a thought of a pay raise - we have to "grow
the company"
You know, increase profit margins so my measurables show I'm worth that
big bonus".
Why do you "HAVE" to grow the company. You need to make it COMPETITIVE.
Have you ever given thought to the idea of "growing" the company down to
learn how to be competitive? No, you're looking at a 1 year time frame
max to sell your concepts to
get that bonus/raise. The company I'm at right now is being sold because
the
new (2 years service) COO bankrupt the 30 year owners/founders by
selling them an idea that
they could be a Tier 1 auto supplier. Through his contacts he got approx.
100 GM jobs launched
at the same time. 160 employee company was no where near prepared to do
this. I'll be the first to say the owners are not good businessmen. They
let this guy trash their company because he spoke of grand
increases/improvements. I guess that's what
the latest management gurus taught him. "If you believe it, it will
happen".

Best job I ever had, good work environment, good people, as long as the work
got done they didn't really care too much about when and where you did it,
stock was at 50 bucks a share and we were _going_ places. Well, while the
guy that was taking us there was off in Europe drumming up 50 million
dollars in new business some yahoo who came to be known as "The Green Rat"
to the employees was in New York sucking up to the majority shareholder.
So he replaced the guy who was in Europe as CEO. 5 years later I decided
just for jollies to buy a block of stock (that's 100 shares). It was
either that or a hamburger and I wasn't all that hungry that day. Besides,
the stock was cheaper. Came across the certificate the other day.

Simple fact is that a business in a mature market isn't going to grow very
much unless it can come up with some way to take share from the
competition, find a way to make the market larger, or find a new and
untapped niche.

I like the folks who say "just do it". No wasteful preliminaries like
planning and costing.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Never Enough Money wrote:

I think you helped me make my case. Thanks!
Don't think so.

Although labor unions once served a purpose, they have become greedy
selfish entities. Yes, CEO do get paid too much when compared to the
rank and file -- maybe.
Ever hear of Enron, Worldcom, etc. NO CEO is worth what these jokers get.
CEO are paid too little when compared to
professional atheletes. Just my opinion.
Professional athletes? Poor analogy - entertainment industry = way inflated $.

Unions are one of the major causes that jobs have gone overseas. Thye
continues to rachet up wages and benifits to unrealistic levels.


What makes you think I'm "unknowing".

You are obviously not aware of what goes on in a union today.
The fact that you worked at GM
and had some exposure to a union doesn't make you an expert.

Never said I was - telling of my experiences & many relatives' experiences.

Union's have the constant tiresome mantra -- look at top management.

They constantly say it because it's true & they can't fire management.
Now there's where I have the same credientials you have. I'm part of
top management and it's not so easy.

All I keep hearing from management is "You have to do more in less time with
less supplies & hardly a thought of a pay raise - we have to "grow the company"
You know, increase profit margins so my measurables show I'm worth that big bonus".
Why do you "HAVE" to grow the company. You need to make it COMPETITIVE.
Have you ever given thought to the idea of "growing" the company down to learn
how to be competitive? No, you're looking at a 1 year time frame max to sell your concepts to
get that bonus/raise. The company I'm at right now is being sold because the
new (2 years service) COO bankrupt the 30 year owners/founders by selling them an idea that
they could be a Tier 1 auto supplier. Through his contacts he got approx. 100 GM jobs launched
at the same time. 160 employee company was no where near prepared to do this.
I'll be the first to say the owners are not good businessmen. They let this
guy trash their company because he spoke of grand increases/improvements. I guess that's what
the latest management gurus taught him. "If you believe it, it will happen".

Ever hear of Enron, Worldcom, etc. NO CEO is worth what these jokers
get.

I agree. However, they were criminals and not the average CEO.

Top management jobs are far less secure than union jobs. They get
fired all the time. That's why they get these hige severance clauses --
they know their job may be short lived.


Your whole last section needs some serious rethinking on your part.

You have provoked me into violating a principle of never going
off-topic in the woodworking group. My sincere apologies to those of
you coming here for woodworking only to find these OT posts.

You said: "You are obviously not aware of what goes on in a union
today. "

So dazzle me with how unions are making life better.....I'm all ears.

Never Enough Money wrote:
You said: "You are obviously not aware of what goes on in a union
today. "

So dazzle me with how unions are making life better.....I'm all ears.

They aren't & never said they were - I don't like them.

Never Enough Money wrote:

Ever hear of Enron, Worldcom, etc. NO CEO is worth what these jokers
get.

I agree. However, they were criminals and not the average CEO.

Top management jobs are far less secure than union jobs. They get
fired all the time. That's why they get these hige severance clauses --
they know their job may be short lived.


Your whole last section needs some serious rethinking on your part.
I don't think so. However I just realized that your signature pretty much sums
up the problems with management today...

You have provoked me into violating a principle of never going
off-topic in the woodworking group. My sincere apologies to those of
you coming here for woodworking only to find these OT posts.

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:49:11 -0400, Stephen Young
wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Stephen Young" wrote in message

I'm so sick of the unknowing blaming all the ills of the US workplace on
unions, lazy workers, etc. Start looking where you should, at the top -
management. There are laws & rules in effect that govern blue collar
conduct, union or not. It is management's responsibility to enforce these
policies. Blue collar or white, it comes down to this - DO YOUR JOB!!!!
I'm not in a union nor do I feel I want to belong in one. When you see it
first hand, you'll understand.

Not saying either side is faultless. Just asking why do so many people feel there isn't a way to
try to right the ship? Status quo is how we must go? Good employees see bad ones get away with
just about anything & maybe get a slap on the wrist. Now they are at fault for saying anything
negative about the workplace? I hear this constantly where I work - don't worry about problems
around you, just do your work and shut up. Try to help out to improve efficiencies &
productivity & you're the bad guy according to management. I like to think I'm trying to make my
workplace remain in business for another day. Workers don't get to change/enforce policies. The
emperor has no clothes.

You need to find another place to work, perhaps. I won't work in a
union shop because they place more value on senority than
productivity and stifle innovation by preventing cross-training (this
may depend on the union, but it's true for a lot of them). The bad
employees get to stick around, and the good ones don't get paid a
nickel extra in most cases. The place I work has got it's problems-
and some of them could be addressed by a union that is not corrupt,
but I am one of the highest paid employees on the shop floor even
though I've been there less than a year. I do more work than my
peers, and my employer has the ability to give raises to me based on
merit because there is no union to say no.

The problems get larger with the companies. I've worked for large
corporations, and I've worked with small shops. When you've got a
top-down corporate style of management in a gigantic company, then
things work exactly as stated above- but in a smaller company there is
often more of a collegial approach that allows the workers who are
actually doing the job to rethink and accordingly modify their
processes, rather than wasting their time searching for some mythical
overloard in a Kafka-esque bureaucracy. There are still guys that
won't stick their necks out to improve the system in those
enviroments, but at least the opportunity is there.

The workplace works the same as the marketplace- if you don't like
what's going on, vote with your feet. Find a place that allows you
to fulfill your personal function- that is to say, not just to "shut
up and do your job" but to actively work to improve your productivity
and skill. You're right- innovation *is* helping your employer stay
in business another day. It is also making local manfacturing a more
attractive option for everyone by allowing your employer to pay you
more, while maintaining a competative price-point. If you're in an
environment where that is not understood, then it's likely that you
are in the wrong environment altogether. There is no virtue in making
a martyr of one's self by "sticking it out" with a place which does
not have the ability to change for the better.

Many times, management can be convinced of the value of innovation by
making the numbers work for them. They have bosses just like you, and
they have to answer for the actions they take in the workplace. Your
manager may pass over a very good idea because you failed to make a
compelling case for it. Numbers help- graphs are often even better.
When you can break down the amount of money saved by performing an
activity in a different manner, it not only lends you credibility, but
it gives them something to take to their superiors. Everybody wins
when you lay it out properly.

Bad employees get the bum's rush. Forget getting management to fire
them- they don't want to pay the unemployment. It's not that hard to
talk the guys who *are* doing their work into making the workplace a
very hostile place for those who are not. Better to convince them to
quit on their own than trying to get your HR dept. to build a case
against them. I know where I'm at, the useless guys are always
claiming fake injuries, so we like to make them special "safety"
posters. A guy can't take being lampooned for too long before he
heads for greener pastures.

Anyhow, sorry about the long rant, but this is one of those things
that is rather near and dear to me. I worry that if things continue
the way they are in most places, the US will be a third-world country
by the end of my lifetime.

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

"Prometheus" wrote in message

Bad employees get the bum's rush. Forget getting management to fire
them- they don't want to pay the unemployment. It's not that hard to
talk the guys who *are* doing their work into making the workplace a
very hostile place for those who are not.

So you're advocating a group presence to force out an employee who some may
see as being a bad employee? And what about the very real possibility of the
process being subverted by people or persons who have a grudge against a
fellow employee? What about the possibility of prejudice (which we all have
to varying degrees) as the motivation to enjoin the group to 'talk' someone
into leaving? What you're saying is that office politics (and that's exactly
what you're talking about) will rule the day.

While I see the point (barely) that you're trying to make, it's fraught with
too many places where it becomes nothing more than mob rule. Tension and
contained fear is what you get in an job site like that. That's not the
atmosphere I'd want to work in even if I was popular and my job was secure.

Upscale wrote:

"Prometheus" wrote in message

Bad employees get the bum's rush. Forget getting management to fire
them- they don't want to pay the unemployment. It's not that hard to
talk the guys who *are* doing their work into making the workplace a
very hostile place for those who are not.

So you're advocating a group presence to force out an employee who some
may see as being a bad employee? And what about the very real possibility
of the process being subverted by people or persons who have a grudge
against a fellow employee? What about the possibility of prejudice (which
we all have to varying degrees) as the motivation to enjoin the group to
'talk' someone into leaving? What you're saying is that office politics
(and that's exactly what you're talking about) will rule the day.

While I see the point (barely) that you're trying to make, it's fraught
with too many places where it becomes nothing more than mob rule. Tension
and contained fear is what you get in an job site like that. That's not
the atmosphere I'd want to work in even if I was popular and my job was
secure.

I take it you don't like democracy as a system of government then.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
So you're advocating a group presence to force out an employee who some
may
see as being a bad employee? And what about the very real possibility of
the
process being subverted by people or persons who have a grudge against a
fellow employee? What about the possibility of prejudice (which we all
have
to varying degrees) as the motivation to enjoin the group to 'talk'
someone
into leaving? What you're saying is that office politics (and that's
exactly
what you're talking about) will rule the day.

While I see the point (barely) that you're trying to make, it's fraught
with
too many places where it becomes nothing more than mob rule. Tension and
contained fear is what you get in an job site like that. That's not the
atmosphere I'd want to work in even if I was popular and my job was
secure.



Sadly, you're describing what often happens in a union shop. **** off the
foreman? No problem. **** off the committeeman? Stand by for a knee
replacement.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message

I take it you don't like democracy as a system of government then.

There's quite a difference between the concept of company employees forcing
someone out and the governments we elect to power. While people in our
governments aren't above playing dirty politics when it suits them, they're
under much higher scrutiny by the general public and our media industries
than any that would happen in a small company.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

In my garage (that's attached to the house) I put in nine used 4'
fixtures that I got from a demolition. When it's cold the bulbs hum
and flicker until they warm up but other than that they seem to work
fine.

Last summer I built a 26' x28' shop out back. I live in a cold
climate and only heat the shop when I'm working out there. I
installed nine of the high output 8' fixtures. Lots of light with no
hum and flicker. No bulbs have burned out yet. The fixtures are
about twice as expensive and the bulbs are three times as expensive.
The 8' bulbs are much easier to replace than the 4'.

I was able to build this shop because of my good union wages and I'll
be able to retire in two years at age 60 because I will be able to
live well on my good union pension.

Not all unions are alike just as all companies are not alike. I work
in a building trades union. I went through a five year apprenticeship
to learn my trade. We compete (myself and my union brothers) with the
non-union every day and have done so all of my working lifetime. We
compete because we work hard and are well trained. We have no
seniority clauses in our contracts. If you don't work, you don't keep
your job.

Yes, there are corrupt union officials, just as there are corrupt
management officials, corrupt bankers, corrupt politicians, and
corrupt clergymen. Just because some are bad does not mean that they
all are.

Tom



On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:58:45 GMT, "Christopher Shoenleben"
wrote:

Need to find some 8 ft. garage/shop lights--any suggestions?
Thanks Chris

Big T wrote in message on
Monday 25 April 2005 11:47 am:


I was able to build this shop because of my good union wages and I'll
be able to retire in two years at age 60 because I will be able to
live well on my good union pension.

Not all unions are alike just as all companies are not alike. I work
in a building trades union. I went through a five year apprenticeship
to learn my trade. We compete (myself and my union brothers) with the
non-union every day and have done so all of my working lifetime. We
compete because we work hard and are well trained. We have no
seniority clauses in our contracts. If you don't work, you don't keep
your job.

Yes, there are corrupt union officials, just as there are corrupt
management officials, corrupt bankers, corrupt politicians, and
corrupt clergymen. Just because some are bad does not mean that they
all are.

Tom


Whoa ... who stepped on your gopher?

One of the problems with present union rules (and many large non-union
businesses) is everyone is the job makes the same money. Hard to reward
the
top producers as it is to get rid of the low end. Small shops have more
leeway and individuals are noticed more.

Where I work, my employers have placed me in the top category they can, but,
due to the contract with the Teamsters, they can not give me a merit raise.
And I definitely warrant one.

So I'm booking outta there. They blame the union but I can see that reps
from both sides signed that contract. Sorry, but $10.50 / hr. for BEING the
entire maintenance department for 200,000 sq ft of packaging plant doesn't
cut it. When arrived, there were always a couple of machines in my work
area. When I took over, there was seldom more than one machine down. That
is, there was always at least one production line idled. Commencing with a
few months after my predecessor left, there is probably no more than an
hour or so per week of accumulated downtime for the entire plant.

Anybody who can pull that off is worth a heck of a lot more than $10.50.

Bill

Stephen Young says...

All I keep hearing from management is "You have to do more in less time with
less supplies & hardly a thought of a pay raise - we have to "grow the company"
You know, increase profit margins so my measurables show I'm worth that big bonus".
Why do you "HAVE" to grow the company. You need to make it COMPETITIVE.
Have you ever given thought to the idea of "growing" the company down to learn
how to be competitive? No, you're looking at a 1 year time frame max to sell your concepts to
get that bonus/raise. The company I'm at right now is being sold because the
new (2 years service) COO bankrupt the 30 year owners/founders by selling them an idea that
they could be a Tier 1 auto supplier. Through his contacts he got approx. 100 GM jobs launched
at the same time. 160 employee company was no where near prepared to do this.
I'll be the first to say the owners are not good businessmen. They let this
guy trash their company because he spoke of grand increases/improvements. I guess that's what
the latest management gurus taught him. "If you believe it, it will happen".

I couldn't agree more. It's the biggest scam ever perpetuated how these
clowns get promoted to the highest positions and get paid so much. I've
watched them give totally unrealistic revenue forecasts to make
themselves look good. Then when the numbers inevitably don't come
through, they get unceremoniously fired. But in the meantime, they made
in that year what I made in three years and probably got another two
years worth of severance pay. And all for doing less than nothing.
Then when they are gone, they are hardly missed at all. If you look at
them, they are all the same. It's just a boy's club where the right
socioeconomic background is what makes the whole thing go around.
Intelligence, creativity or good intentions are unnecessary, if not
despised.

Bill C. says...

Anybody who can pull that off is worth a heck of a lot more than $10.50.

Bill

Dude, you could make $10.50 with your woodworking.

Hax Planx wrote in message
on Monday 25 April 2005
08:58 pm:

Bill C. says...

Anybody who can pull that off is worth a heck of a lot more than $10.50.

Bill

Dude, you could make $10.50 with your woodworking.

I intend to make $40. More, if I can find a steady supply of fools with
money.

Bill

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:45:59 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

"Prometheus" wrote in message

Bad employees get the bum's rush. Forget getting management to fire
them- they don't want to pay the unemployment. It's not that hard to
talk the guys who *are* doing their work into making the workplace a
very hostile place for those who are not.

So you're advocating a group presence to force out an employee who some may
see as being a bad employee? And what about the very real possibility of the
process being subverted by people or persons who have a grudge against a
fellow employee? What about the possibility of prejudice (which we all have
to varying degrees) as the motivation to enjoin the group to 'talk' someone
into leaving? What you're saying is that office politics (and that's exactly
what you're talking about) will rule the day.

While I see the point (barely) that you're trying to make, it's fraught with
too many places where it becomes nothing more than mob rule. Tension and
contained fear is what you get in an job site like that. That's not the
atmosphere I'd want to work in even if I was popular and my job was secure.

I guess it may depend on the industry you're in- There's only a very
few that get that treatment, and it is because they are obviously and
blatently disregarding all the policies of the company. When a guy is
causing others to get injured or refusing to work *at all* (and we've
had a few of each- usually it's the same guy doing both) it's not ok
to wait 6 months for HR to build a file against them. The last guy it
happened to managed to snap a bandsaw blade into the face of one of my
co-workers, and gave him a scar he'll carry for the rest of his life.
I shudder to think of what would have happened had he been allowed to
operate the overhead crane. In a dangerous environment, screwing
around and general incompetance can be the difference between life and
death, and in that case- yes, I do advocate pushing the offenders out
the door.

Of course, if you're in an office and you don't like the way someone
files papers it may be an entirely different story. Ditto for many
other forms of lighter work where the problem may be that they are
causing someone inconvenience, rather than actively endangering
others. I should have been a little more clear there the first time
around- I was talking about shop enviroments and heavy industry.


Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:58:21 -0500, Hax Planx
wrote:

Bill C. says...

Anybody who can pull that off is worth a heck of a lot more than $10.50.

Bill

Dude, you could make $10.50 with your woodworking.

That *is* a sad wage- especially for maintenance. I think starting
wage for any maintenance around here is at least $15/hr, if the
classifieds are anything to go by. $10.50 has got to be hard to live
on.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

"Prometheus" wrote in message
blatently disregarding all the policies of the company. When a guy is
causing others to get injured or refusing to work *at all* (and we've
had a few of each- usually it's the same guy doing both) it's not ok

Ok, I can't object to something like that. Causing injury due to negligence
or laziness isn't to be tolerated under any circumstances.

others. I should have been a little more clear there the first time
around- I was talking about shop enviroments and heavy industry.

And from a little experience, I can sympathize. A number of years ago when I
was 18 and working ground crew at Toronto airport, there was one guy
especially that was usually drunk or well on his way to getting there. He'd
raid the bar trolleys on the planes every chance he could got. One day, I
witnessed him falling 15 feet off one of the mobile stair ramps. He wasn't
seriously hurt that I can recall, but after that, I refused to work on his
crew citing personality differences. The union reps brushed the whole thing
over as a simple accident. A week later, he ran a luggage jeep into the wing
of a 737. There was quite a bit of damage. I'm not sure about 737s and wing
tanks, but there could have been a hell of an explosion under worse
circumstances. This time there was a more serious inquiry, but again the
union protected him enough to keep his job.

Prometheus says...

That *is* a sad wage- especially for maintenance. I think starting
wage for any maintenance around here is at least $15/hr, if the
classifieds are anything to go by. $10.50 has got to be hard to live
on.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

It takes a minimum of $15/hr to live like an American.

Upscale wrote in message on Tuesday 26
April 2005 09:16 am:


circumstances. This time there was a more serious inquiry, but again the
union protected him enough to keep his job.

And that, in my opinion, is where the unions totally fumble the ball and
fully lose my respect. I AM a union member. I work in a closed shop and I
had to chose between paying dues or finding other work.

Job protection should only come up when a guy is actually trying to do the
job in some serious sort of way. It's a much more constructive hammer if
you only swing it when there's a nail to be hit.

Where I work, if you have an accident, with or without an injury, you can
either go to to the clinic and pee in the jar / blow in the straw or you
can go home and stay there. If you go to the clinic, the union will try to
keep you employed. But you are no longer an equipment operator. That's the
trade off. The company (through no fault of its own) loses the training
they have invested in you and you lose your pay premium ... dropping back
to just about a buck an hour more than the temps make and kissing off your
'benefits' for 90 days. After a year (AFAIK), you can reapply for your old
job. If sent to a rehab program, it must have been completed per the
original agreement.

The union helps people kill themselves when they shield them from the job
consequences of their drug problems. That's a shame. What's a crime is that
they often help them kill others on their way out.


DAMHIKT, but I do.

Prometheus wrote in message on
Tuesday 26 April 2005 06:33 am:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:58:21 -0500, Hax Planx
wrote:

Bill C. says...

Anybody who can pull that off is worth a heck of a lot more than $10.50.

Bill

Dude, you could make $10.50 with your woodworking.

That *is* a sad wage- especially for maintenance. I think starting
wage for any maintenance around here is at least $15/hr, if the
classifieds are anything to go by. $10.50 has got to be hard to live
on.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam


Thank goodness I'm a proud Teamsters union member, eh?

I'm getting paid on the low side of janitorial wages.

No problem. I've almost got my basement workshop up to snuff and my skills
improve weekly. I'm turning out bowls thin enough to be translucent, strong
enough to be useful and pretty enough to gather dust.

The financial situation is actually quite a bit worse than I wrote. But I'd
rather not write more. It is enough to say that this is definitely a
'bootstraps' operation. ;-)