I'm starting assembly of my workbench top. For the dog hole strip I
already have 3/4"x3/4" dadoes run through at 2 degrees. I have to
decide whether it's worth the effort of cutting out the ledges for
storing the dogs.

The way I see it, it's a heck of a lot of work for not much pay off.
For one thing, what are the odds that the next time I need it it's
going to be the same hole, unless I make a dog for every hole which
seems like overkill. And did I mention the whole lot of work?

And on a tangent, on the dogs I have seen the spring on the front and
I have seen them on the side. I usually see them on the front with
square dogs, but it would seem to make more sense to have it on the
side.


-Leuf

"Leuf" wrote in message
I'm starting assembly of my workbench top. For the dog hole strip I
already have 3/4"x3/4" dadoes run through at 2 degrees. I have to
decide whether it's worth the effort of cutting out the ledges for
storing the dogs.

May it not be easier to use round dogs and then all you need to is to drill
properly sized holes (if and when needed) after the bench is completed?

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/Search.aspx?c=1&action=n

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 01:23:14 -0400, Leuf
wrote:

I have to
decide whether it's worth the effort of cutting out the ledges for
storing the dogs.

Oh yes !

The "ledge" isn't for storage - it's to allow the dogs to be placed
and used with only half of their height protruding. Pretty much
essential for planing over the top of them.

I did mine with the router and a simple sliding jig (adjustable
framing square with a stop block clamped to it). Doing the ledges was
only moments of extra work. If you're doing them on the tablesaw then
I guess it could be more effort, but it's still worth having them.

As a general rule, it's _always_ worth doing it "right" on a
workbench. You have to live with it a long time.

Oh yes !

The "ledge" isn't for storage - it's to allow the dogs to be placed
and used with only half of their height protruding. Pretty much
essential for planing over the top of them.


Andy I *have* square dogs with a ledge and I don't follow you. Could you
clarify?

When I "store" a bench dog I just push it down below the surface of the
table. The ledge keeps the dog from continuing through bench top if I were
to give it more of a push than necessary. The mating ledge in the hole is
about 1/8" lower than necessary to accomodate the inevitable dust that drops
in there.

I've got square dogs too. I out a ledge in the top (Bad ascii art):

| |
| |
| |
| |

side view of doghole - the ledge in the top is supposed to catch the pad
that you glue to the face of the dog to prevent it from marking your stock.

Here's what I've found: all of my "nice" dogs (the ones with pads on the
face) seem to wander off when I need them. The dogs I use are just strips of
random stock ripped off of hunks of scrap wood (my holes area fat 3/4 x
3/4, so its easy to find stock). On the spring placement - if you make your
dogs (and holes) square, and don't bother with a pad (I haven't had any
problems not having one) it doesn't matter what side the spring is on - just
turn it around until its the way you want it....

-JD



"Leuf" wrote in message
...
I'm starting assembly of my workbench top. For the dog hole strip I
already have 3/4"x3/4" dadoes run through at 2 degrees. I have to
decide whether it's worth the effort of cutting out the ledges for
storing the dogs.

The way I see it, it's a heck of a lot of work for not much pay off.
For one thing, what are the odds that the next time I need it it's
going to be the same hole, unless I make a dog for every hole which
seems like overkill. And did I mention the whole lot of work?

And on a tangent, on the dogs I have seen the spring on the front and
I have seen them on the side. I usually see them on the front with
square dogs, but it would seem to make more sense to have it on the
side.


-Leuf

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:38:09 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 01:23:14 -0400, Leuf
wrote:

I have to
decide whether it's worth the effort of cutting out the ledges for
storing the dogs.

Oh yes !

The "ledge" isn't for storage - it's to allow the dogs to be placed
and used with only half of their height protruding. Pretty much
essential for planing over the top of them.

Yes, but if I make the top of the dog 3/4" instead of having the extra
bit in front then it can slide down as far as I need, there's just
nothing to stop it from falling through. I presume that the spring is
enough to hold it in place while working with it, but not enough to
hold it while in storage and the bench is being worked on.

I did mine with the router and a simple sliding jig (adjustable
framing square with a stop block clamped to it). Doing the ledges was
only moments of extra work. If you're doing them on the tablesaw then
I guess it could be more effort, but it's still worth having them.

The only way I can think to do it with what I have is to start it with
a hand saw and then chisel. How deep is the ledge supposed to be?
1/2" ?

As a general rule, it's _always_ worth doing it "right" on a
workbench. You have to live with it a long time.

Well it's hard to know how to build it right without having used it
before. I've seen enough workbenches with stuff that was more about
demonstrating the skill of the maker than doing it right that I
question *everything* I see in them. I'm more on the "good, fast,
cheap" side of the scale than ultimate bench with this one.

Maybe I should make a mockup dog hole in a 2x4 to play with before I
go any further.


-Leuf

Leuf wrote:

I'm starting assembly of my workbench top. For the dog hole strip I
already have 3/4"x3/4" dadoes run through at 2 degrees. I have to
decide whether it's worth the effort of cutting out the ledges for
storing the dogs.
I think so. Just finished my own "intermediate" bench, which it sounds
like you are doing, and have the ledges. Not pretty--I cut the dog
holes with the RAS, and the extra width with a stopped cut of the RAS
to remove most of the material, and a chisel to square up.

In another message, you said "I'm more on the "good, fast,
cheap" side of the scale than ultimate bench with this one." Given
that, consider that your ledge doesn't have to be neat, perfectly
square, etc.

The way I see it, it's a heck of a lot of work for not much pay off.
For one thing, what are the odds that the next time I need it it's
going to be the same hole,
The relevant question is "without the ledge, what are the odds that
the dog will be in any of your dog holes, versus on the floor under
your bench.

And on a tangent, on the dogs I have seen the spring on the front and
I have seen them on the side. I usually see them on the front with
square dogs, but it would seem to make more sense to have it on the
side.
I agree with you, and did them that way. With the spring on the side,
you have good unimpeded mating surfaces on the front and the back,
where force is applied.


--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

"Upscale" wrote:

"Leuf" wrote in message
I'm starting assembly of my workbench top. For the dog hole strip I
already have 3/4"x3/4" dadoes run through at 2 degrees. I have to
decide whether it's worth the effort of cutting out the ledges for
storing the dogs.

May it not be easier to use round dogs and then all you need to is to drill
properly sized holes (if and when needed) after the bench is completed?

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/Search.aspx?c=1&action=n

Definitely easier to use round holes in a completed bench, and that is
one of the big pluses of round dogs. And there are other tradeoffs
between the two shapes. I have a bench with round dog holes and just
built one with square dog holes. For irregular-shaped objects, the
round are easier to use. But for holding rectangular wood for planing,
give me the square ones every time--can be used as a planing stop,
without worrying that the wood will twist violently to one side when
you hit that gnarly grain that is 1/2" to the side of perfectly in
line with the direction of your stroke and the center of the round
dog.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

"Andy Dingley" said
Oh yes !

The "ledge" isn't for storage - it's to allow the dogs to be placed
and used with only half of their height protruding. Pretty much
essential for planing over the top of them.

I did mine with the router and a simple sliding jig (adjustable
framing square with a stop block clamped to it). Doing the ledges was
only moments of extra work. If you're doing them on the tablesaw then
I guess it could be more effort, but it's still worth having them.

As a general rule, it's _always_ worth doing it "right" on a
workbench. You have to live with it a long time.


Well said Andy. I can always use round dogs in my square holes, harder the
other way around!

Dave



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On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 11:02:07 -0400, Leuf
wrote:

The "ledge" isn't for storage

Of course it's for storage - I should have said "not just for
storage".

Yes, but if I make the top of the dog 3/4" instead of having the extra
bit in front then it can slide down as far as I need,

Yes, you could do this - if you're making your own dogs. I sized my
dog holes to suit the commercial square metal dogs. Then I realised
just how much I'd over-paid on a pair of these dogs, so the ones I
added later were home-made and wooden.

The spring should be adequate to hold them in place through all but
the heaviest pounding.

The only way I can think to do it with what I have is to start it with
a hand saw and then chisel.

I'd cut the dog holes as dados on the table saw, making up a simple
MDF angled sliding carriage as a cutting jig. Then I'd do the ledges
with a chisel.

How deep is the ledge supposed to be?
1/2" ?

Mine are 1 1/4" deep ledges, in a 4" deep apron strip. The bench top
is 2" oak, ripped into narrow strips, but the apron strip is turned
vertically. There's a 1/2" thick cover strip on the outside.

My only wish is that I'd put a second row of dog holes in, about 6" or
9" in from the others.



Well it's hard to know how to build it right without having used it
before.

Indeed. I'd put a Klausz-style vice on the left rather than my Frid
style, if I did it again.

Maybe I should make a mockup dog hole in a 2x4 to play with before I
go any further.

I wouldn't bother - you really need to jig for batch production when
cutting these. It would be a faff to do this for the prototype.

Upscale:
For irregular-shaped objects, the round are easier to use.

That all may be, but why not put a swiveling square top
piece on a square dog? That would catch any shape and
hold it. Dogs come in all shapes and sizes and designs.

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

I built my own bench with square dog holes. The bench just wouldn't
be as useful without the "ledges" the bench dogs rest on while under
the surface and unused. I just pop them up when I need them. Without
the ledges they would fall through or I'd need to find somewhere else
to store them. You should definitely take the time to put the ledges
in.

I built my own bench with square dog holes. The bench just wouldn't
be as useful without the "ledges" the bench dogs rest on while under
the surface and unused. I just pop them up when I need them. Without
the ledges they would fall through or I'd need to find somewhere else
to store them. You should definitely take the time to put the ledges
in.


Are your dog's springs made of wood? If so over time they'll warp_to_flatten I
should think... ?

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 01:23:14 -0400, Leuf
wrote:

I'm starting assembly of my workbench top. For the dog hole strip I
already have 3/4"x3/4" dadoes run through at 2 degrees. I have to
decide whether it's worth the effort of cutting out the ledges for
storing the dogs.

The way I see it, it's a heck of a lot of work for not much pay off.
For one thing, what are the odds that the next time I need it it's
going to be the same hole, unless I make a dog for every hole which
seems like overkill. And did I mention the whole lot of work?

And on a tangent, on the dogs I have seen the spring on the front and
I have seen them on the side. I usually see them on the front with
square dogs, but it would seem to make more sense to have it on the
side.

Don't over-analize it- they're just bits of scrap to hold your
workpiece. I used square dog holes for my bench, and then made the
"dogs" by ripping a piece of 4/4 beech to size and chopping a bunch of
little square dogs out of it on the miter saw. Then I threw all of
them in a cardboard box, and presto- more dogs than I will ever need.
The don't have any springs on them at all, but they still work just
fine. The pressure from the vise keeps everything in place no
problem.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it the "correct" way, but it's
certainly nothing to get too worked up over. Enjoy your new bench!




Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

Definitely easier to use round holes in a completed bench, and that is
one of the big pluses of round dogs. And there are other tradeoffs
between the two shapes. I have a bench with round dog holes and just
built one with square dog holes. For irregular-shaped objects, the
round are easier to use. But for holding rectangular wood for planing,
give me the square ones every time--can be used as a planing stop,
without worrying that the wood will twist violently to one side when
you hit that gnarly grain that is 1/2" to the side of perfectly in
line with the direction of your stroke and the center of the round
dog.

Assuming you are using the standard two rows of dog holes, why not
just drill a couple of holes in a piece of scrap to slide over two
round dogs when planing rectangular stock? I usually do that with the
square ones anyhow, and it works really well.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:m7d6e.35375$Xs.8084@fed1read03...

I built my own bench with square dog holes. The bench just wouldn't
be as useful without the "ledges" the bench dogs rest on while under
the surface and unused. I just pop them up when I need them. Without
the ledges they would fall through or I'd need to find somewhere else
to store them. You should definitely take the time to put the ledges
in.


Are your dog's springs made of wood? If so over time they'll
warp_to_flatten I
should think... ?


That has not been my experience. Mine have been in use for over 3 years and
have not list their elasticity.

Even so, I can always make more.

-Steve

Are your dog's springs made of wood? If so over time they'll
warp_to_flatten I
should think... ?


That has not been my experience. Mine have been in use for over 3 years and
have not list their elasticity.

Even so, I can always make more.

-Steve


Okay, so what wood is your springs?

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:59:41 -0700, "AAvK" wrote:

Okay, so what wood is your springs?

Mine are hickory - just sawn-down hammer shafts. The dogs themselves
are maple or elm

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:25:52 -0500, Prometheus
wrote:


Definitely easier to use round holes in a completed bench, and that is
one of the big pluses of round dogs. And there are other tradeoffs
between the two shapes. I have a bench with round dog holes and just
built one with square dog holes. For irregular-shaped objects, the
round are easier to use. But for holding rectangular wood for planing,
give me the square ones every time--can be used as a planing stop,
without worrying that the wood will twist violently to one side when
you hit that gnarly grain that is 1/2" to the side of perfectly in
line with the direction of your stroke and the center of the round
dog.

Assuming you are using the standard two rows of dog holes, why not
just drill a couple of holes in a piece of scrap to slide over two
round dogs when planing rectangular stock? I usually do that with the
square ones anyhow, and it works really well.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam


That's what I use as well. A length of 3 x 1 with 3 holes and a notch
in it, holds anything.

I built a simple workbench from a FWW design a while back and thought
long and hard about square vs round. Eventually, I drilled a few
round, and since then have added about another 12 holes where, and as
required. For the dogs I use short pieces of 16mm mild steel rod I
recovered from the dumpster.

This has worked out very well, and I don't see the need for the added
complexity of square dogs.

Barry Lennox

That's what I use as well. A length of 3 x 1 with 3 holes and a notch
in it, holds anything.

I built a simple workbench from a FWW design a while back and thought
long and hard about square vs round. Eventually, I drilled a few
round, and since then have added about another 12 holes where, and as
required. For the dogs I use short pieces of 16mm mild steel rod I
recovered from the dumpster.

This has worked out very well, and I don't see the need for the added
complexity of square dogs.

Barry Lennox


I bought lignum vitae pen blanks myself... ebay.

--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Okay, so what wood is your springs?

Mine are hickory - just sawn-down hammer shafts. The dogs themselves
are maple or elm


Ahh... hickory over here is stiff hard and chippy... sometimes I buy the chips
and smoke a corned beef or a chicken with it.

Do your springs flex good enough without breaking? I know our standard
white oak would work perfectly.

--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

That has not been my experience. Mine have been in use for over 3 years
and
have not list their elasticity.

Okay, so what wood is your springs?


The whole dog is cherry. Only because it was nice-looking scrap. I would
think anything harder than pine would work acceptably.

The springyness (tension?) of the spring is a function of thickness of the
slat. I just experimented to get what I felt worked well. I was happy with
the results of my second try.

-Steve

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:50:32 -0700, "AAvK" wrote:

hickory over here is stiff hard and chippy

So is hickory in England. We don't have any, it's imported from you.

It's stiff, but if you saw it thin it's springy enough. If I hadn't
had a broken hammer shaft and a bandsaw to hand, I'd have used riven
ash. (although our ash is much better than American ash)

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:55:13 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:

(although our ash is much better than American ash)

smartass
I've heard that about English ash.
/smartass
--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

smartass
I've heard that about English ash.
/smartass
--

****ed?

--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Assuming you are using the standard two rows of dog holes, why not
just drill a couple of holes in a piece of scrap to slide over two
round dogs when planing rectangular stock? I usually do that with the
square ones anyhow, and it works really well.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam


That's what I use as well. A length of 3 x 1 with 3 holes and a notch
in it, holds anything.

I built a simple workbench from a FWW design a while back and thought
long and hard about square vs round. Eventually, I drilled a few
round, and since then have added about another 12 holes where, and as
required. For the dogs I use short pieces of 16mm mild steel rod I
recovered from the dumpster.

This has worked out very well, and I don't see the need for the added
complexity of square dogs.

I kind of envy you that, actually. My square ones can be a real PITA
when the humidity changes. Not to mention all the useless work I
could have saved myself!
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam