Does one boring musing beat two trolls? oh no! not craft/art
 

My daughter is a professional artist and she is paid surprisingly high
(it seems to her dad 'G') prices for her paintings by international
clients. She seems to pay little attention to the 'tools of her trade'
while I spend hours thinking about, trying out and agonizing over
turning stock, equipment and turning techniques. She is a success as an
artist, I'm a journeyman.

Things concerned with the making seem more important to me than the
objects I make. I guess that means that woodturning is a hobby for me,
but is this also true for workers in other media where art resides in an
object? If art is in an object, craft must, of necessity, be involved.
Unlike music, poetry, and painting, wood art demands that an object be
made; Utilitarian or not; no object, no object of art.

Embellishing by adding something not natural to the wood and/or
ornamenting with coves, beads and such are part of crafting an object of
wood art. How much or if any, of each is a world class FAQ, but it has
no answer. The old adage: "Ornament the construction, don't construct
the ornament" is sound advice, but hard to follow in actual practice.

If I aspire to be a wood artist as well as a wood turner must I learn to
execute, in depth, all the techniques needed to turn wood before I
attempt to turn wood art? It seems obvious that there can be no mutual
exclusion of either, but to some extent does an excess of one endeavor
tend to diminish the other? Ain't I artful?

Yep, I know this is beating a dead art/craft horse, but one hasn't been
beaten on the ng all week and there are early signs of irritation and
other withdrawal symptoms on rcw. My musing is a bad tasting antidote,
but hopefully it's palliative. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

The post on potato chip bowls and the word "embellishing" remind me of a few
things I do as a matter of course to bowls intended for particular use.

A salad bowl needs to stand up with the serving utensils hanging out. This
means a broader base and/or heavier bottom than a display piece. A potato
chip bowl doesn't need such a firm footing, but it certainly could use a lip
extending either inward, where it would be in the way for salad, or outward,
which would reduce capacity if turning at the max throw of the lathe. The
lip acts as a thumbhold or a fingerhold as the bowl is passed, and can't
really be replaced by beads, though two/three "V" grooves might do.

Popcorn bowls are usually passed, but they also require thicker bottoms to
keep the heat isolated from your lap, and special consideration in finish
selection. Can't use a surface finish on a popcorn bowl. The old maids
hold a lot of heat, and even if you're using Orville, there will be enough
of them to blister the finish. Not to mention the obvious, that with salad
and popcorn both, the ultimate finish is the oil used in the contents. Even
chips are not _that_ oily.

Anyone else with considerations for either design or material selection?
It's an artistic choice just like bronze versus marble or fresco versus
mosaic, in my opinion.

"Arch" wrote in message
...


Embellishing by adding something not natural to the wood and/or
ornamenting with coves, beads and such are part of crafting an object of
wood art. How much or if any, of each is a world class FAQ, but it has
no answer. The old adage: "Ornament the construction, don't construct
the ornament" is sound advice, but hard to follow in actual practice.

Arch, which comes first the crafsman or the artist? Can you be one with
out the other or will one turn into the other. Are there natural born
artists and craftsman or does one start as the craftsman and turns into an
artist? What about us that are artistically challanged are we destend to be
coppiers and forgers? For myself I think I have no imagination. As a
painter I am looking at a blank canvas or writer with nothing on paper. I
have a hard time with language and music. I think the toutchy feely part of
my brain is small but the anyalitical side is much larger or is the more
dominant. I also tend to look at the tools and the process of turning and
I am delighted when something is completed and works. Could that be because
I am at the begining of my craftmanship where things do not tend to work
well. It is natural as skill develops one looks for the more difficult as
one needs the challange. Will the artisticlly challanged ever see the art
piece in the wood or must they depend on what others see. To the artist is
the carftmanship a means to the end. Do they care how they got there or
what shape their tools are in. I think the craftsman looks at the tools,
loveingly cares for them, loves the process of the work for it's own sake
and the product he makes is a bonus. As a craftsman I love being in my
garadge shop with my books and videos. It is fun to read and then see if I
can do that as a turner. I know I will never be an artist and I am happy at
my level of craftmanship because I know it will get better and my enjoyment
comes from the journey.

Bruce
"Arch" wrote in message
...
My daughter is a professional artist and she is paid surprisingly high
(it seems to her dad 'G') prices for her paintings by international
clients. She seems to pay little attention to the 'tools of her trade'
while I spend hours thinking about, trying out and agonizing over
turning stock, equipment and turning techniques. She is a success as an
artist, I'm a journeyman.

Things concerned with the making seem more important to me than the
objects I make. I guess that means that woodturning is a hobby for me,
but is this also true for workers in other media where art resides in an
object? If art is in an object, craft must, of necessity, be involved.
Unlike music, poetry, and painting, wood art demands that an object be
made; Utilitarian or not; no object, no object of art.

Embellishing by adding something not natural to the wood and/or
ornamenting with coves, beads and such are part of crafting an object of
wood art. How much or if any, of each is a world class FAQ, but it has
no answer. The old adage: "Ornament the construction, don't construct
the ornament" is sound advice, but hard to follow in actual practice.

If I aspire to be a wood artist as well as a wood turner must I learn to
execute, in depth, all the techniques needed to turn wood before I
attempt to turn wood art? It seems obvious that there can be no mutual
exclusion of either, but to some extent does an excess of one endeavor
tend to diminish the other? Ain't I artful?

Yep, I know this is beating a dead art/craft horse, but one hasn't been
beaten on the ng all week and there are early signs of irritation and
other withdrawal symptoms on rcw. My musing is a bad tasting antidote,
but hopefully it's palliative. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Yep.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

I'm not loafing. I work so fast I'm
always finished






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Arch

I tend to think of the Art/Craft battle in terms of how the person who is
performing the turning looks at what he does.

If one goes out to his shop and is taking a set of plans or the latest
project from "Woodturning Design" (no offense) with him/her and is having to
stop and check every measurement and every thickness and consult the warning
labels of the tools and finishes before using them and is always worried
about having a terrible catch, then that person is taking the craft approach
to woodturning.

If one goes out to his studio with an idea of something he/she wants to
make, but thinks that the process from getting from the lump of wood to the
final piece of work is not as important as the joy they felt in making the
shavings and arriving at the finished product with out someone elses input -
then that is the approach of an artist.

Whether the finished piece is art or crap that is the question that is
answered at the point of sale.

And that is all I have to say about that!

Ray

Arch

I tend to think of the Art/Craft battle in terms of how the person who is
performing the turning looks at what he does.

If one goes out to his shop and is taking a set of plans or the latest
project from "Woodturning Design" (no offense) with him/her and is having to
stop and check every measurement and every thickness and consult the warning
labels of the tools and finishes before using them and is always worried
about having a terrible catch, then that person is taking the craft approach
to woodturning.

If one goes out to his studio with an idea of something he/she wants to
make, but thinks that the process from getting from the lump of wood to the
final piece of work is not as important as the joy they felt in making the
shavings and arriving at the finished product with out someone elses input -
then that is the approach of an artist.

Whether the finished piece is art or crap that is the question that is
answered at the point of sale.

And that is all I have to say about that!

Ray

Arch,

I have many thoughts on this topic, but I'll share two.

A friend of mine and a fellow woodturner often gets his pieces
published in Fine Woodworking, Woodturning, and Woodworks magazines.
When I first started turning I thought to myself that he has reached
that "artist" plateau. I finally asked him about it and his comment
was refreshing and frank: You don't have to turn particularly
excellent pieces, but you do have to take good pictures. So is an
artist in the eye of the camera?

Christian Burchard was in San Diego a couple of weeks ago for a club
demo and a one-day class. I took the class and spent about an hour
with him discussing my work and my ideas for future pieces. For every
idea he asked my, "Why do you want to do that?" I have to admit that
my answer, more often than not was something like, "Because it looks
fun" or "Because I can." In other words, my motivation was about the
process, not the end result. Call that craft. On one idea, however,
he was really excited because I was talking in terms of what the
pieces might represent and what they meant to me. In so many words,
he told me that this was art.

Based upon this, I agree with Arch. Craft is more about process and
art is more about result. However, I believe that a good or great
artist makes the best use of process to accomplish their vision.

Joe Fleming - San Diego
proficient craftsman, emerging artist?
================================================


(Arch) wrote in message ...
My daughter is a professional artist and she is paid surprisingly high
(it seems to her dad 'G') prices for her paintings by international
clients. She seems to pay little attention to the 'tools of her trade'
while I spend hours thinking about, trying out and agonizing over
turning stock, equipment and turning techniques. She is a success as an
artist, I'm a journeyman.

Things concerned with the making seem more important to me than the
objects I make. I guess that means that woodturning is a hobby for me,
but is this also true for workers in other media where art resides in an
object? If art is in an object, craft must, of necessity, be involved.
Unlike music, poetry, and painting, wood art demands that an object be
made; Utilitarian or not; no object, no object of art.

Embellishing by adding something not natural to the wood and/or
ornamenting with coves, beads and such are part of crafting an object of
wood art. How much or if any, of each is a world class FAQ, but it has
no answer. The old adage: "Ornament the construction, don't construct
the ornament" is sound advice, but hard to follow in actual practice.

If I aspire to be a wood artist as well as a wood turner must I learn to
execute, in depth, all the techniques needed to turn wood before I
attempt to turn wood art? It seems obvious that there can be no mutual
exclusion of either, but to some extent does an excess of one endeavor
tend to diminish the other? Ain't I artful?

Yep, I know this is beating a dead art/craft horse, but one hasn't been
beaten on the ng all week and there are early signs of irritation and
other withdrawal symptoms on rcw. My musing is a bad tasting antidote,
but hopefully it's palliative. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Ray Sandusky" wrote in message
...
Arch

I tend to think of the Art/Craft battle in terms of how the person who is
performing the turning looks at what he does.

If one goes out to his shop and is taking a set of plans or the latest
project from "Woodturning Design" (no offense) with him/her and is having
to
stop and check every measurement and every thickness and consult the
warning
labels of the tools and finishes before using them and is always worried
about having a terrible catch, then that person is taking the craft
approach
to woodturning.

If one goes out to his studio with an idea of something he/she wants to
make, but thinks that the process from getting from the lump of wood to
the
final piece of work is not as important as the joy they felt in making the
shavings and arriving at the finished product with out someone elses
input -
then that is the approach of an artist.

Whether the finished piece is art or crap that is the question that is
answered at the point of sale.

And that is all I have to say about that!

Ray

====Jeez, Ray! Are you saying my paint-by-the-number oeuvres aren't art??
*G*

Leif

Leif

I do not point fingers - if I point at you I have 3 fingers pointed back at
me and that is enough of an indictment! However, I will suggest that you
not follow the numbers and see what you get!

Ray


"Leif Thorvaldson" wrote in message
...

====Jeez, Ray! Are you saying my paint-by-the-number oeuvres aren't art??
*G*

Leif

Everybody's a critic! *G*

"Ray Sandusky" wrote in message
...
Leif

I do not point fingers - if I point at you I have 3 fingers pointed back
at me and that is enough of an indictment! However, I will suggest that
you not follow the numbers and see what you get!

Ray


"Leif Thorvaldson" wrote in message
...

====Jeez, Ray! Are you saying my paint-by-the-number oeuvres aren't
art?? *G*

Leif

A craftsman and an artist are not mutually exclusive concepts except a
craftsman discounts the price of a work with mistakes and an artist
increases the price of a work with mistakes. (a little joke)

However an artist will never call it a mistake. (another little joke)

Then again is a perfect photograph the product of a craftsman or an
artist?

A craftsman would be able to take the picture again. An artist would
not want to.

Finally, art is in the eye of the beholder. It can be something as
discusting as a jar of urine or be a finely carved and polished statue
done hundreds of years ago. It can take minutes or years to create.
I bet you could not convince a parent that the 1st grade drawings on
their refridgerator are not art.

Is your salad bowl art? I helped a neighbor cut down a tree over the
weekend. While in the middle of cutting it up into sections long
enough to burn, the wife stopped me wanting the remaining part to use
in landscaping the yard. The husband questioned (twice) that she
wanted to put 'that' in the front yard. Is it art? To her it has a
shape she likes and wants to display. Was I an artist because I was
cutting up the tree? I didn't feel like one.

Don't know William but I think a arborist could be a artist? yes?

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


william kossack wrote:

A craftsman and an artist are not mutually exclusive concepts except a
craftsman discounts the price of a work with mistakes and an artist
increases the price of a work with mistakes. (a little joke)

However an artist will never call it a mistake. (another little joke)

Then again is a perfect photograph the product of a craftsman or an
artist?

A craftsman would be able to take the picture again. An artist would
not want to.

Finally, art is in the eye of the beholder. It can be something as
discusting as a jar of urine or be a finely carved and polished statue
done hundreds of years ago. It can take minutes or years to create.
I bet you could not convince a parent that the 1st grade drawings on
their refridgerator are not art.

Is your salad bowl art? I helped a neighbor cut down a tree over the
weekend. While in the middle of cutting it up into sections long
enough to burn, the wife stopped me wanting the remaining part to use
in landscaping the yard. The husband questioned (twice) that she
wanted to put 'that' in the front yard. Is it art? To her it has a
shape she likes and wants to display. Was I an artist because I was
cutting up the tree? I didn't feel like one.

you bet

Leo Van Der Loo wrote in message ...
Don't know William but I think a arborist could be a artist? yes?

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


william kossack wrote:

A craftsman and an artist are not mutually exclusive concepts except a
craftsman discounts the price of a work with mistakes and an artist
increases the price of a work with mistakes. (a little joke)

However an artist will never call it a mistake. (another little joke)

Then again is a perfect photograph the product of a craftsman or an
artist?

A craftsman would be able to take the picture again. An artist would
not want to.

Finally, art is in the eye of the beholder. It can be something as
discusting as a jar of urine or be a finely carved and polished statue
done hundreds of years ago. It can take minutes or years to create.
I bet you could not convince a parent that the 1st grade drawings on
their refridgerator are not art.

Is your salad bowl art? I helped a neighbor cut down a tree over the
weekend. While in the middle of cutting it up into sections long
enough to burn, the wife stopped me wanting the remaining part to use
in landscaping the yard. The husband questioned (twice) that she
wanted to put 'that' in the front yard. Is it art? To her it has a
shape she likes and wants to display. Was I an artist because I was
cutting up the tree? I didn't feel like one.