I found an unidentified root in the road (it is light colored, but turns
yellow brown about a day after being cut; anything jump to mind?) and
decided to make my first vase. It is about 4" diameter and 8" high. I ran
into three problems.

1) I could only manage to hollow out about 5.5". And even then I left a
little uvula in the middle that I couldn't get out noway. I don't think I
can go deeper than 5.5", but how do you get the center part out?

2) I had to leave most of it rough inside because I couldn't manipulate a
tool in there, and certainly couldn't get sandpaper in. Any tricks here?

3) I nearly lost it because the bottom became extremely uneven when it
dried. I did the best I could to get it back on the chuck square, but it
wobbled and I had to take more off the outside to get it round than
anticipated. I almost ran out of material. How does one handle that
properly? I am not sure a chuck (if I had one) would have helped, because
the top probably wasn't square either.

On the whole it turned out nicely though.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~toller/vase.jpg

On Jul 16, 12:20 pm, "Toller" wrote:

1) I could only manage to hollow out about 5.5". And even then I left a little uvula in the middle that I couldn't get out noway. I don't think I can go deeper than 5.5", but how do you get the center part out?

You need a surprisingly substantial tool to hollow 5.5" deep in a
vase. You didn't say what type of tool you were using, or why it or
you wouldn't go past 5.5"

Are you end grain turning (grain parallel with the ways) or are you
bowl grain turning (grain at 90 degrees) to the ways? This would also
make a difference in the tool selection and capability.

Until I was comfortable (OK, sometimes even now...) with my gouges I
used to use my 1/2" X 1" round nose scraper to nibble off that little
cone.

2) I had to leave most of it rough inside because I couldn't manipulate a tool in there, and certainly couldn't get sandpaper in. Any tricks here?

If it is a vase, you should be able to hold sandpaper in your hands it
if it is 4" across and only 5.5" deep. If that isn't comfortable for
you, you can use differnet pliers (I use 12' curved brake pliers),
holders, and homemade gizmos to get the paper to the wood.

3) I nearly lost it because the bottom became extremely uneven when it dried. I did the best I could to get it back on the chuck square, but it wobbled and I had to take more off the outside to get it round than
anticipated.

Very typical. As the general rule of thumb goes, you want to cut to
about 10% of your final thickness. I am more generous than that, but
that 10% allows for radial movement which throws the piece off it axis
of balance when drying. I try to turn as closely as I can to the
final shape stopping at my 10% or so and cut the surface almost as
finely as I would before final sanding when finishing the piece.

But no matter what, when you dry, you should plan to rebalance the
piece when you re-mount.

But looking at your piece and reviewing your dimensions, you have some
other challenges that you will have to master to get things going in
the right direction.

First, a knotty piece of wood like you used, full of occlusions and
twisty grain will never dry perfectly. The more screwed up a piece of
wood actually is makes it more valuable to us woodturners, right? So
that will take some practice and experience from you to make the call
on how close to cut one of these pieces when taking it off the lathe
to further dry. This is one I would have stopped at about 25% of
final thickness and just let it dry longer.

Second, you created a recipe of hardship for yourself when you
hollowed 2/3 of the way down and quit. The wood will dry in a
drastically uneven fashion when parts of it are 1/4 thick (the sides)
and other parts (the base) is about 3" thick. It simply cannot dry
the same way, or react the same way with two huge differences like
that in thickness.

Think about this: The sides can expulse water from both sides making
them dry faster, and more evenly on a smaller thicknes of material
which will give smaller movement. On the solild mass you left on the
base, the water can only leave on the perimeter, leaving the inside
green until it finally dries from the outside in. This can take a
long time and since it is a greater mass of wood fiber and water
drying from one side only, the drying process with distort the wood
much more than an even, two sided drying.

That's my 0.02.

Robert

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 16, 12:20 pm, "Toller" wrote:

1) I could only manage to hollow out about 5.5". And even then I left a
little uvula in the middle that I couldn't get out noway. I don't think
I can go deeper than 5.5", but how do you get the center part out?

You need a surprisingly substantial tool to hollow 5.5" deep in a
vase. You didn't say what type of tool you were using, or why it or
you wouldn't go past 5.5"

Are you end grain turning (grain parallel with the ways) or are you
bowl grain turning (grain at 90 degrees) to the ways? This would also
make a difference in the tool selection and capability.

Until I was comfortable (OK, sometimes even now...) with my gouges I
used to use my 1/2" X 1" round nose scraper to nibble off that little
cone.


It is end grain, for the most part. I suppose the grain was really going
every which way.
I used the tool that has a little carbide disk on the end of it. Works
wonderfully; I don't think I could have gotten a gouge in half that far, but
it is only about 6" long, so there isn't anyway to go deeper.
I tried every tool I had; between not being able to see what I was doing,
and having the support 6" away, I just couldn't get any action on the little
cone.

2) I had to leave most of it rough inside because I couldn't manipulate
a tool in there, and certainly couldn't get sandpaper in. Any tricks
here?

If it is a vase, you should be able to hold sandpaper in your hands it
if it is 4" across and only 5.5" deep. If that isn't comfortable for
you, you can use differnet pliers (I use 12' curved brake pliers),
holders, and homemade gizmos to get the paper to the wood.

3) I nearly lost it because the bottom became extremely uneven when it
dried. I did the best I could to get it back on the chuck square, but
it wobbled and I had to take more off the outside to get it round than
anticipated.

Very typical. As the general rule of thumb goes, you want to cut to
about 10% of your final thickness. I am more generous than that, but
that 10% allows for radial movement which throws the piece off it axis
of balance when drying. I try to turn as closely as I can to the
final shape stopping at my 10% or so and cut the surface almost as
finely as I would before final sanding when finishing the piece.

But no matter what, when you dry, you should plan to rebalance the
piece when you re-mount.

But looking at your piece and reviewing your dimensions, you have some
other challenges that you will have to master to get things going in
the right direction.

First, a knotty piece of wood like you used, full of occlusions and
twisty grain will never dry perfectly. The more screwed up a piece of
wood actually is makes it more valuable to us woodturners, right? So
that will take some practice and experience from you to make the call
on how close to cut one of these pieces when taking it off the lathe
to further dry. This is one I would have stopped at about 25% of
final thickness and just let it dry longer.

Second, you created a recipe of hardship for yourself when you
hollowed 2/3 of the way down and quit. The wood will dry in a
drastically uneven fashion when parts of it are 1/4 thick (the sides)
and other parts (the base) is about 3" thick. It simply cannot dry
the same way, or react the same way with two huge differences like
that in thickness.

Think about this: The sides can expulse water from both sides making
them dry faster, and more evenly on a smaller thicknes of material
which will give smaller movement. On the solild mass you left on the
base, the water can only leave on the perimeter, leaving the inside
green until it finally dries from the outside in. This can take a
long time and since it is a greater mass of wood fiber and water
drying from one side only, the drying process with distort the wood
much more than an even, two sided drying.

That makes sense; the butt was considerably thicker after drying.
So, I should restrict myself to 6" vases until I get better tools?

On Jul 16, 12:14 pm, "Toller" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...



On Jul 16, 12:20 pm, "Toller" wrote:

1) I could only manage to hollow out about 5.5". And even then I left a
little uvula in the middle that I couldn't get out noway. I don't think
I can go deeper than 5.5", but how do you get the center part out?

You need a surprisingly substantial tool to hollow 5.5" deep in a
vase. You didn't say what type of tool you were using, or why it or
you wouldn't go past 5.5"

Are you end grain turning (grain parallel with the ways) or are you
bowl grain turning (grain at 90 degrees) to the ways? This would also
make a difference in the tool selection and capability.

Until I was comfortable (OK, sometimes even now...) with my gouges I
used to use my 1/2" X 1" round nose scraper to nibble off that little
cone.

It is end grain, for the most part. I suppose the grain was really going
every which way.
I used the tool that has a little carbide disk on the end of it. Works
wonderfully; I don't think I could have gotten a gouge in half that far, but
it is only about 6" long, so there isn't anyway to go deeper.
I tried every tool I had; between not being able to see what I was doing,
and having the support 6" away, I just couldn't get any action on the little
cone.



2) I had to leave most of it rough inside because I couldn't manipulate
a tool in there, and certainly couldn't get sandpaper in. Any tricks
here?

If it is a vase, you should be able to hold sandpaper in your hands it
if it is 4" across and only 5.5" deep. If that isn't comfortable for
you, you can use differnet pliers (I use 12' curved brake pliers),
holders, and homemade gizmos to get the paper to the wood.

3) I nearly lost it because the bottom became extremely uneven when it
dried. I did the best I could to get it back on the chuck square, but
it wobbled and I had to take more off the outside to get it round than
anticipated.

Very typical. As the general rule of thumb goes, you want to cut to
about 10% of your final thickness. I am more generous than that, but
that 10% allows for radial movement which throws the piece off it axis
of balance when drying. I try to turn as closely as I can to the
final shape stopping at my 10% or so and cut the surface almost as
finely as I would before final sanding when finishing the piece.

But no matter what, when you dry, you should plan to rebalance the
piece when you re-mount.

But looking at your piece and reviewing your dimensions, you have some
other challenges that you will have to master to get things going in
the right direction.

First, a knotty piece of wood like you used, full of occlusions and
twisty grain will never dry perfectly. The more screwed up a piece of
wood actually is makes it more valuable to us woodturners, right? So
that will take some practice and experience from you to make the call
on how close to cut one of these pieces when taking it off the lathe
to further dry. This is one I would have stopped at about 25% of
final thickness and just let it dry longer.

Second, you created a recipe of hardship for yourself when you
hollowed 2/3 of the way down and quit. The wood will dry in a
drastically uneven fashion when parts of it are 1/4 thick (the sides)
and other parts (the base) is about 3" thick. It simply cannot dry
the same way, or react the same way with two huge differences like
that in thickness.

Think about this: The sides can expulse water from both sides making
them dry faster, and more evenly on a smaller thicknes of material
which will give smaller movement. On the solild mass you left on the
base, the water can only leave on the perimeter, leaving the inside
green until it finally dries from the outside in. This can take a
long time and since it is a greater mass of wood fiber and water
drying from one side only, the drying process with distort the wood
much more than an even, two sided drying.

That makes sense; the butt was considerably thicker after drying.
So, I should restrict myself to 6" vases until I get better tools?


Hello Toller,

The rule of thumb for hollowing is not to extend the tool over the
tool rest more than 20 percent of its length. For the 5.5" of
hollowing you needed a tool that was almost 30 inches long.

If the tool you are using is the Hunter Tool with the carbide cutter,
you should be able to get rid of that little nub in the center by
bringing the tool up flat at the center and slowly slice away the nub
a bit at a time. Your tool will try to dodge one way or the other. But
tru to keep it on centr and below the end of the nub, then lever down
on your handle and slice off a bit. Repeat this again and again until
you've eliminated the nub.

Good luck and keep trying. Let every piece be an experience from which
you can learn something.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

The rule of thumb for hollowing is not to extend the tool over the
tool rest more than 20 percent of its length. For the 5.5" of
hollowing you needed a tool that was almost 30 inches long.

Then how do you do it? A 30" tool?!
I was able to get the hunter to work well, but couldn't get a scraper to
much of anything, to either clean up the sides or go after the center thing.

Just a thought, here. There are a lot of good books and videos out
there. Some in your local library, and some at Barnes and Noble.
There are even some interesting videos on turning at YouTube.

Best of all, if you have time, you should see if you have a local
turning club. For several years out club was a great place to learn
from each other about techniques and methods as well as hearing about
practical experience with certain tools.

A good club could really help you learn faster and better, and really
cut down on your frustration.

Hang in there, man.

Good luck and keep trying. Let every piece be an experience from which
you can learn something.

Ditto!

Robert

"Toller" wrote in message
...
The rule of thumb for hollowing is not to extend the tool over the
tool rest more than 20 percent of its length. For the 5.5" of
hollowing you needed a tool that was almost 30 inches long.

Then how do you do it? A 30" tool?!
I was able to get the hunter to work well, but couldn't get a scraper to
much of anything, to either clean up the sides or go after the center
thing.


Fred is speaking of overhang over the rest. Depending on the size of the
opening you may be able to angle your regular rest to get support inside the
box. There are also special rests for box scrapers which will extend inside
real well. As far as tool length, it should be as Lincoln's legs, long
enough to reach the ground (bottom). Leverage will tell you how aggressive
you can be.

For straight sides like you have in the picture, you can certainly use a
gouge or Darrell's favorite, an Oland tool, to shave the sides.

My "pointy" gouge is for practical purposes an Oland with a flute ground
from a "detail" gouge. it makes short work of interiors, sweeping in to out
and out to in, including shaving out the point. I use a termite to trim end
grain at the bottom, because I stink with a scraper.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e/a63b77ab.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e/725a28f2.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e/5fa71f2e.jpg

You can also bottom with a nice fingernailed gouge, setting up as if you
were boring with a D bit and curling the shavings out. At 6", you may find
that's not possible, because the ferrule's riding the rest.

Fred Holder wrote:
On Jul 16, 12:14 pm, "Toller" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...
Hello Toller,

The rule of thumb for hollowing is not to extend the tool over the
tool rest more than 20 percent of its length. For the 5.5" of
hollowing you needed a tool that was almost 30 inches long.

If the tool you are using is the Hunter Tool with the carbide cutter,
you should be able to get rid of that little nub in the center by
bringing the tool up flat at the center and slowly slice away the nub
a bit at a time. Your tool will try to dodge one way or the other. But
tru to keep it on centr and below the end of the nub, then lever down
on your handle and slice off a bit. Repeat this again and again until
you've eliminated the nub.

Good luck and keep trying. Let every piece be an experience from which
you can learn something.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com



a quick way to get that little nub out is a forstner bit mounted in your
tailstock with a drill chuck

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:24:29 -0600, william kossack
wrote:


a quick way to get that little nub out is a forstner bit mounted in your
tailstock with a drill chuck

Then, all you have to do is get the friggin' hole from the point of the forstner
bit smoothed out... BTDT got the t-shirt..

Being a devout coward, I use the largest, thickest round nose scraper that will
fit in the opening to smooth the bottom.. If I have to, I'll use my round
side-scraper, but a full round nose is a lot more stable and safer, IMO...

(Counting fingers and enjoying getting to 10)



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:20:23 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

I found an unidentified root in the road (it is light colored, but turns
yellow brown about a day after being cut; anything jump to mind?) and
decided to make my first vase. It is about 4" diameter and 8" high. I ran
into three problems.

1) I could only manage to hollow out about 5.5". And even then I left a
little uvula in the middle that I couldn't get out noway. I don't think I
can go deeper than 5.5", but how do you get the center part out?

I've hollowed a couple dozen vases (for some reason, I tend to like
them better than bowls, YMMV), and what I've found works pretty well
is a lathe tool spin-off of the forsner bit idea. I've got a smaller
round-nose scraper (about 1/2" x 3/16") that I set directly in the
center, and use like an auger bit to get to my depth. That
effectively "drills" a hole with a slightly concave bottom that I can
work down to with other tools, and there is no nub to remove at the
end. The other suggestion you've already gotten about levering the
tool up into the nub works well also, but that is what I do with
bowls, not vases, as there is more room to work.

2) I had to leave most of it rough inside because I couldn't manipulate a
tool in there, and certainly couldn't get sandpaper in. Any tricks here?

I had a rough time with this as well for quite a while, and tried all
sorts of things to get sandpaper in there. What I found was that a
combination of two scrapers gives me the best results. For the sides,
I ground a scraper out of used M2 punch tooling (basically just a 1/2"
round piece of HSS) with a profile similar to the end of a
butterknife, and slid it into the end of a 4' piece of black pipe.
The cutting edge is a little different than you might imagine, and I
confess I stumbled on it by accident- rather than being relieved on
the bottom, it is actually a slightly convex angle (about 93-95
degress when looking from the edge.) I use it freehand (without a
tool rest) and let the bevel ride slightly below the center line. If
you move smoothly at the waist, you can get a really, really smooth
inside face with this method.

The bottom is done with a regular fingernail-profile scraper. the
only thing that will help you blend the intersection between where the
two tools is practice, but once you get it, it will be plenty smooth
for the inside of a vase.

3) I nearly lost it because the bottom became extremely uneven when it
dried. I did the best I could to get it back on the chuck square, but it
wobbled and I had to take more off the outside to get it round than
anticipated. I almost ran out of material. How does one handle that
properly? I am not sure a chuck (if I had one) would have helped, because
the top probably wasn't square either.

The way I handle it is to turn from wet to finished in one session- I
can see the arguments for the turn-dry-turn method when it comes to
bowls, even though I don't do that myself, but with something like a
vase, every little distortion is magnified signifigantly in proportion
to it's length. You do risk distortion in the finished vase by
finishing from green wood, but that's not always a bad thing. The big
trick is to avoid getting the lip around the top too thin, which will
allow cracks to start and travel down the length of the piece (in the
case of end-grain vases, at least)

If you really feel that you need to dry before doing the final
finishing, and I'm certainly not going to tell you that there is
anything wrong with that, I would remount the dried vase between
centers before trying to stick it in the chuck. Hopefully, you have a
spur center mark in the foot from your original roughing before you
put it in the chuck to use a a reference, and on the open end, you'd
need to turn a cone that you can stick into the mouth of the vase to
have something to press the tailstock against.

Once you have it between centers, it should be pretty easy and
straightforward to true up the foot and the the rest of the vase with
good support in place before remounting it in the chuck. Doing it
that way would not only be safer, but will preserve more of the wood,
if that is what you're trying to accomplish.

On the whole it turned out nicely though.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~toller/vase.jpg