One turner's reason for buying a pricy XYZ turning tool is often
another turner's reason not to buy it. This isn't necessarily a
contradiction. Some folks are sorry that there's not a gouge more
expensive than a XYZ so they can buy it. Others think the XYZ is way
over priced. Some folks are willing to pay a premium for eponymous
factory grinds on otherwise run of the mill gouges. Other folks figure
to grind their own version on a noname gouge.


There are many good reasons for buying a quality turning tool. Utility,
design, heat resistance, comfort in use, pretty handles and pride of
ownership come to mind, but I wonder a little about one of the most
hallowed reasons. I mean edge retention.


I know it must be an important reason because so many good writers say
so. I can understand that aggressive and/or too frequent sharpening
_could shorten a tool's life. True, but the many good turners I know are
competent sharpeners and they sharpen any gouge frequently while it's in
use regardless of how long it's said to hold its edge. That's every
gouge, whether it's hi carbon, hss, frozen, powdered or manicured steel
or cost ten bucks or two hundred.

How do we know when we need to resharpen a tool's edge? The only way I
know to assure that _any gouge in use is as sharp as it can be or ought
to be is to touch it up and see. Of course, there may be other ways that
I don't know about, but most good turners appear to sharpen their tools
often. Maybe it's worthwhile to find out that their powdered steel gouge
didn't really need to be resharpened yet.


And another thing. How many years does it take Ms. Average Turner to
wear down her frequently sharpened gouge to a useless length? Let's say
the gouge actually touches spinning wood for 3 hours a day for a 5 day
week for 40 weeks a year. Seems to me it would take many years to wear
down an 8 in. flute. No?

Just having fun musing with tongue in cheek and I know I'm wrong. Some
kind turner better set me straight so I don't keep anyone from buying an
XYZ.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Arch" wrote in message
...

And another thing. How many years does it take Ms. Average Turner to
wear down her frequently sharpened gouge to a useless length? Let's say
the gouge actually touches spinning wood for 3 hours a day for a 5 day
week for 40 weeks a year. Seems to me it would take many years to wear
down an 8 in. flute. No?


I'd say so. Now I also believe it's cheaper to sharpen for the final pass
than use the grits of paper that a sharp gouge saves, so maybe I sharpen too
much? I'll bet there's less than a penny worth of steel in a full 16" bowl
from start to finish, even if you get one of the name gouges.

Musing about anal retentive tool edges.


Arch, I know tools edges have flaws, but I didn't know they have character
flaws.

Dan

George wrote:


"Arch" wrote in message
...

And another thing. How many years does it take Ms. Average Turner to
wear down her frequently sharpened gouge to a useless length? Let's say
the gouge actually touches spinning wood for 3 hours a day for a 5 day
week for 40 weeks a year. Seems to me it would take many years to wear
down an 8 in. flute. No?


I'd say so. Now I also believe it's cheaper to sharpen for the final pass
than use the grits of paper that a sharp gouge saves, so maybe I sharpen too
much? I'll bet there's less than a penny worth of steel in a full 16" bowl
from start to finish, even if you get one of the name gouges.


Sorby came out with a tool called the Spindlemaster where you aren't supposed
to sharpen the bevel at all, just hone the top edge. IOW, the tool never
gets shortened. I wondered about this and asked the Sorby rep who was
demonstrating the tools at the local Woodcraft. He said he'd been giving
multiple demos of the tool each week for years and still using the same
Spindlemaster. So I guess they do wear down very slowly :-).


--
It's turtles, all the way down

Hello Arch,

Well, you can count me in the habitual sharpening crowd... I don't care if
its a $50.00 bowl bowl gouge, or a $200.00 one - I sharpen it when I get the
first indication that the edge is going... It could have been sharpened a
few seconds earlier, it really does not matter to me.

In the early days of my studio, I turned long past the point where I should
have re-sharpened the tool (in retrospect). Although I may have saved a bit
of steel (I was born in the year of the rat), I paid for it with sore arms
and sore hands at the end of the day. Sometimes, after along day of
production turning, my arm would be almost numb and I seriously considered
leaving the turning profession altogether.

Thankfully, I saw the light very quickly and I decided to become a habitual
sharpener. I can now turn for 16 -18 hours without getting sore. No sore
arms, no white finger or carpal tunnel and a significant decrease in sanding
time not to mention the savings in abrasives. :-) Maybe age does bring
wisdom!!! :-)

As for how long a gouge will last before it's used up, I can give you an
example from my studio. The last bowl gouge I wore out (ground all the way
up the flute) was 1/2" Henry Taylor (M2 HSS) deep fluted gouge. When it
received its last sharpening and I retired it, I had turned 7,345 bowls with
it over a four year period of time. That's a lot of wood and a lot of bowls.

Bear in mind that I also used other tools on the bowls, but the bulk of the
turning (roughing, hogging the exterior and interior, primary cuts and some
intermediate cuts) were done with the 1/2" gouge. I've worn out a few gouges
in the 11+ years of my studio, but I've turned more than 12,400 bowls, not
to mention all of the platters, hollow forms, small items and all of the
other things.

Any way you look at it, a good gouge will last the typical woodturner many
years, even if they sharpen it by what some would consider - excessively.
For someone like me, four years may be the life expectancy of a bowl gouge,
but that's a pretty good ROI for a $65.00 gouge! Thanks for your posting and
best wishes to you in all of your woodturning endeavours! Take care.

--
Better Woodturning and Finishing Through Chemistry...

Steven D. Russell
Eurowood Werks Woodturning Studio, The Woodlands, Texas
Machinery, Tool and Product Testing for the Woodworking and Woodturning
Industries

Website: http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com
Free Monthly Woodturning Newsletter * Your email is kept confidential
Sign up at: http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/lathe-talk.html



On 2/14/07 12:01 PM, in article
, "Arch"
wrote:

One turner's reason for buying a pricy XYZ turning tool is often
another turner's reason not to buy it. This isn't necessarily a
contradiction. Some folks are sorry that there's not a gouge more
expensive than a XYZ so they can buy it. Others think the XYZ is way
over priced. Some folks are willing to pay a premium for eponymous
factory grinds on otherwise run of the mill gouges. Other folks figure
to grind their own version on a noname gouge.


There are many good reasons for buying a quality turning tool. Utility,
design, heat resistance, comfort in use, pretty handles and pride of
ownership come to mind, but I wonder a little about one of the most
hallowed reasons. I mean edge retention.


I know it must be an important reason because so many good writers say
so. I can understand that aggressive and/or too frequent sharpening
_could shorten a tool's life. True, but the many good turners I know are
competent sharpeners and they sharpen any gouge frequently while it's in
use regardless of how long it's said to hold its edge. That's every
gouge, whether it's hi carbon, hss, frozen, powdered or manicured steel
or cost ten bucks or two hundred.

How do we know when we need to resharpen a tool's edge? The only way I
know to assure that _any gouge in use is as sharp as it can be or ought
to be is to touch it up and see. Of course, there may be other ways that
I don't know about, but most good turners appear to sharpen their tools
often. Maybe it's worthwhile to find out that their powdered steel gouge
didn't really need to be resharpened yet.


And another thing. How many years does it take Ms. Average Turner to
wear down her frequently sharpened gouge to a useless length? Let's say
the gouge actually touches spinning wood for 3 hours a day for a 5 day
week for 40 weeks a year. Seems to me it would take many years to wear
down an 8 in. flute. No?

Just having fun musing with tongue in cheek and I know I'm wrong. Some
kind turner better set me straight so I don't keep anyone from buying an
XYZ.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Well, you can count me in the habitual sharpening crowd...

UK turner Peter Child said he sharpened often, too. He kept a grindstone
attached to the outboard shaft of his lathe and touched up tools as he turned.
He said it also gave him a moment to ponder his next move. Dan

I sharpen a lot, too. It didn't take too long to figure out how much
better the tools perform when sharp, and how much less sanding the
project needed when finished with a sharp tool.

I look at it this way; I would never use a dull chisel (I have some, I
call them my "beaters") on a project, nor would I use a dull saw blade
or drill bit. So why would I use a dull turning tool?

I actually pick the tools I like to use by their feel and ease of use
from their design, not so much from what kind of steel they have.
Until I bought some HSS tools, I turned quite comfortably with a set
of carbon steel tools. I still use a couple out of that set now and
again simply because I like the way they feel.

Woodturning is my hobby. I have always thought that I will never wear
out any of my turning tools. Now, after reading Steve Russell's
mileage on his bowl gouge, I am sure of it. I won't turn in my
lifetime what he turns in a year.

Robert

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:01:32 -0500, (Arch) wrote:

One turner's reason for buying a pricy XYZ turning tool is often
another turner's reason not to buy it. This isn't necessarily a
contradiction. Some folks are sorry that there's not a gouge more
expensive than a XYZ so they can buy it. Others think the XYZ is way
over priced. Some folks are willing to pay a premium for eponymous
factory grinds on otherwise run of the mill gouges. Other folks figure
to grind their own version on a noname gouge.

I'm the extreme minority vote- I went as far as finding a blacksmith
to teach me how to make them out of bar stock properly. So take my
input with a grain of salt, of course...

There are many good reasons for buying a quality turning tool. Utility,
design, heat resistance, comfort in use, pretty handles and pride of
ownership come to mind, but I wonder a little about one of the most
hallowed reasons. I mean edge retention.

As far as edge retention goes, I have this to say... *pffft*. Give me
a tool that gets sharper than a stright razor and needs a touchup
every five minutes, and I'll pick that one over the alloy tool that
will hold a mediocre edge forever every time (well, *almost* every
time- there is something to be said for decent edge retention in a
roughing gouge.)

That being said, I have come around a little in my thinking- the
gouge-like tool I ground out of used M2 punch tooling seems to
represent the best of both worlds. It gets very sharp, and holds that
edge for quite a while. For the price I paid (nothing but an hour's
work,) it is a worthwhile tool. If I had to pay $100 for it, I'd do
without it.

I know it must be an important reason because so many good writers say
so. I can understand that aggressive and/or too frequent sharpening
_could shorten a tool's life. True, but the many good turners I know are
competent sharpeners and they sharpen any gouge frequently while it's in
use regardless of how long it's said to hold its edge. That's every
gouge, whether it's hi carbon, hss, frozen, powdered or manicured steel
or cost ten bucks or two hundred.

That's right. Once again, we have the good being eclipsed by "the
best." Longer edge retention becomes hugely important when it is
measured on an industrial scale. One less trip to the grinder per 8
hour shift might add up to huge cost savings over the years if you are
doing production runs. But if you're one guy making a bowl or two a
day for fun (and that's far more prolific than I am,) justifying the
added expense of a high-end tool based on edge retention is a tough
sell.

And another thing. How many years does it take Ms. Average Turner to
wear down her frequently sharpened gouge to a useless length? Let's say
the gouge actually touches spinning wood for 3 hours a day for a 5 day
week for 40 weeks a year. Seems to me it would take many years to wear
down an 8 in. flute. No?

Yep. I will be absolutely stunned if I ever need to replace *any* of
my tools within the next 20 years because they have been ground too
far. So far, I've removed about 3/16" of an inch, tops, off my
gouges- and that's been over the course of a couple of years, and
included learning to sharpen them in the first place, which probably
accounted for about half of that.

Of course there are other reasons to aquire new tools- and it's often
as simple as "because I can."

Just having fun musing with tongue in cheek and I know I'm wrong. Some
kind turner better set me straight so I don't keep anyone from buying an
XYZ.

I don't know that you're wrong. In fact, I think you're spot-on. We
get sold a lot of things in our society, and many of the ideas behind
them are complete nonsense from an objective standpoint. A lot of
consumerism is based more on emotion than any fact.

A small and unrelated case in point- today before work, I stopped in
at the grocery store to get a six-pack of Coke. Last week, I paid
$2.75 for one at the regular price- but today, the same thing went for
$3.75. *But,* the display was covered with signs that said "sale
price." If that isn't Orwellian, I don't know what is- and it happens
with everything from socks to psychology. We live under an extremely
sophisticated multi-headed propiganda machine that is hard to even see
unless you're looking at it very hard.

Another case in point- in my neck of the woods, there is a problem
with homebrewed methamphetamine labs. To combat the problem, the
state passed a law stating that allergy medicine containing
psuedoephedrine could only be dispensed by a pharmacist. As a counter
move, Sudifed released an alternate version of the chemical
(phenylephrine) that presumably can't be turned into a recreational
drug and can be displayed on the shelf where the old stuff was. The
new stuff barely works at all- but they've recently been airing
commercials on the radio with an amazingly subtle slight-of-hand that
makes it sound like the best thing ever. Evidently, they have put the
stuff that does not work in a "quick-dissolve" strip that makes it not
work even faster. So how do they describe it?

"Nothing has been proven to deliver the relief of Sudifed PE faster
than..."

That is a classic, to be sure. If you don't see it, mull it over for
a bit and check for the nullifying constructions in that statement.
It's an amazing way to say absolutely nothing while appearing to
present a solid fact.

Now just to clear this up, I am not particularly paranoid about this
phenominon, and I'm not convinced that it isn't even sort of necessary
to keep things rolling along. At the end of the day, it's just people
trying to sell you what they make so that they can pay their own way,
and there's nothing inherantly wrong with that.

But that doesn't make all the things we are told true. And, just like
anything else, fancy turning tools come with an opportunity cost- it
all just depends on where your particular priorities are.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:09:21 GMT, "George" wrote:


"Arch" wrote in message
...

And another thing. How many years does it take Ms. Average Turner to
wear down her frequently sharpened gouge to a useless length? Let's say
the gouge actually touches spinning wood for 3 hours a day for a 5 day
week for 40 weeks a year. Seems to me it would take many years to wear
down an 8 in. flute. No?


I'd say so. Now I also believe it's cheaper to sharpen for the final pass
than use the grits of paper that a sharp gouge saves, so maybe I sharpen too
much? I'll bet there's less than a penny worth of steel in a full 16" bowl
from start to finish, even if you get one of the name gouges.

Nah, it's more than a penny. But it is definately less than the
asking price. Enough 1095 (also known as [W1] water-hardening tool
steel) for about 12 turning tools cost me $6 (retail) last week- so I
figure that puts a gouge's raw steel value at about 50-80 cents.

Of course, you're not just paying for the material- you're paying for
every cost incurred by the company that made it, plus their profit
margin, as well as the costs incurred by the seller, plus their
profit. Everybody who touches it gets a nickel (probably much more)
per unit, and pretty soon it adds up to real money.

Well, being one who has discovered that I have to experiment for
myself to see what works best for me, I have some of the $200 and $60
gouges. I do like the handles that I made better because I like big
and heavy (many years of concrete construction), and they fit MY
hands. As far as the edge holding ability, the fancy steels do hold a
workable (I can still hog more stuff off) edge longer, but don't hold
the 'finish cut edge' any longer. I have ground one Ellsworth gouge
down to a triangle tool, and now have 4 gouges I am working on. They
are all getting shorter by the day, and will need to be replaced in a
year or two. What will I replace them with? I don't know, it depends
on what is new out there that I don't have yet. I don't have a 'tool'
problem, it is all research. I do use a 320 grit wheel for my gouges,
and that has greatly extended their lives.
robo hippy


On Feb 15, 4:05 am, Prometheus wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:09:21 GMT, "George" wrote:

"Arch" wrote in message
...

And another thing. How many years does it take Ms. Average Turner to
wear down her frequently sharpened gouge to a useless length? Let's say
the gouge actually touches spinning wood for 3 hours a day for a 5 day
week for 40 weeks a year. Seems to me it would take many years to wear
down an 8 in. flute. No?

I'd say so. Now I also believe it's cheaper to sharpen for the final pass
than use the grits of paper that a sharp gouge saves, so maybe I sharpen too
much? I'll bet there's less than a penny worth of steel in a full 16" bowl
from start to finish, even if you get one of the name gouges.

Nah, it's more than a penny. But it is definately less than the
asking price. Enough 1095 (also known as [W1] water-hardening tool
steel) for about 12 turning tools cost me $6 (retail) last week- so I
figure that puts a gouge's raw steel value at about 50-80 cents.

Of course, you're not just paying for the material- you're paying for
every cost incurred by the company that made it, plus their profit
margin, as well as the costs incurred by the seller, plus their
profit. Everybody who touches it gets a nickel (probably much more)
per unit, and pretty soon it adds up to real money.

I for one, was taught to be in the group that a 80 grit wheel brought
an edge to a reasonable enough point that it was where I should be,
and "someday" if I wanted to I could probably see the cutting
differences between that and a 120 grit wheel. Then I watched Alan
Lacers video and thought what a nut, stroping a skew. That edge should
simply dull faster. (thats what I was told) I had no reason not to
believe the man who taught me turning, he is well respected and well
thought of (still so in my mind too) However, once I saw a partial
explanation in Mike Darlow's sharpening video, it hit me. I was not
open enough to the science of what was happening. A 80 or 120 grit
wheel still leaves a fairly serated edge, in comparison to a plane or
hand chisel blade, it's visible to the naked eye. Take that edge and
hone it, heck yesterday I took my skew to a natural japanese water
stone. Those serations are far smaller and get far better support from
the surrounding steel. So starts the arguement that the sharper edge
will last longer. The coarser serations from an 80 or 120 grit wheel
should break off faster.
I doubt that there would be any real noticable difference in the cut
or finish either tool makes, but the concept of a longer lasting edge
from this perspective is interesting.

Consider this.......... If you are turning a 3"D blank at 2000 rpm (a
reasonable speed for a piece that size), the tool is traveling a mile
in about 3.5 minutes. It seems to me that the edge will dull way
before the quarter mile mark. This means that I need to touch up my
edge every minute or so to continue using a sharp edge. Does edge
retention matter? YES!

Stuart Batty made a sharpening presentation at the Desert Roundup in
Mesa, Arizona a couple of weeks ago. He explained the edge retention
differences between carbon steel, M2, M4, 2030, 2060, V10 (A11), and
V15. He also explained the differences in the metal's matrix and how
sharpening affects that. For the really hard steels, he advocates
honing.

His conclusion is that a really hard metal is best because you can
barely take one pass on the outside of an 8" bowl before the edge
dulls too much. It is difficult to get a flowing curve if you have to
stop in the middle of a pass to touch up the edge.

Joe Fleming
San Diego

On Feb 14, 10:01 am, (Arch) wrote:
One turner's reason for buying a pricy XYZ turning tool is often
another turner's reason not to buy it. This isn't necessarily a
contradiction. Some folks are sorry that there's not a gouge more
expensive than a XYZ so they can buy it. Others think the XYZ is way
over priced. Some folks are willing to pay a premium for eponymous
factory grinds on otherwise run of the mill gouges. Other folks figure
to grind their own version on a noname gouge.

There are many good reasons for buying a quality turning tool. Utility,
design, heat resistance, comfort in use, pretty handles and pride of
ownership come to mind, but I wonder a little about one of the most
hallowed reasons. I mean edge retention.

I know it must be an important reason because so many good writers say
so. I can understand that aggressive and/or too frequent sharpening
_could shorten a tool's life. True, but the many good turners I know are
competent sharpeners and they sharpen any gouge frequently while it's in
use regardless of how long it's said to hold its edge. That's every
gouge, whether it's hi carbon, hss, frozen, powdered or manicured steel
or cost ten bucks or two hundred.

How do we know when we need to resharpen a tool's edge? The only way I
know to assure that _any gouge in use is as sharp as it can be or ought
to be is to touch it up and see. Of course, there may be other ways that
I don't know about, but most good turners appear to sharpen their tools
often. Maybe it's worthwhile to find out that their powdered steel gouge
didn't really need to be resharpened yet.

And another thing. How many years does it take Ms. Average Turner to
wear down her frequently sharpened gouge to a useless length? Let's say
the gouge actually touches spinning wood for 3 hours a day for a 5 day
week for 40 weeks a year. Seems to me it would take many years to wear
down an 8 in. flute. No?

Just having fun musing with tongue in cheek and I know I'm wrong. Some
kind turner better set me straight so I don't keep anyone from buying an
XYZ.

Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Joe Fleming wrote:
: Stuart Batty made a sharpening presentation at the Desert Roundup in
: Mesa, Arizona a couple of weeks ago. He explained the edge retention
: differences between carbon steel, M2, M4, 2030, 2060, V10 (A11), and
: V15. He also explained the differences in the metal's matrix and how
: sharpening affects that. For the really hard steels, he advocates
: honing.

: His conclusion is that a really hard metal is best because you can
: barely take one pass on the outside of an 8" bowl before the edge
: dulls too much.

Did he have a recommendation (out of the ones you mention above) as to
which is best? And was there one that's a good price/performance option?

-- Andy Barss

Andy,

I think he plans to introduce tools in the V15 range of hardness. Of
course, you will need to hone them to get them really sharp. Price
performance? He didn't really recommend one, but I kind of picked out
the 2030, 2060 and A11 as my choices given cost and performance.

Joe


On Feb 24, 10:11 am, Andrew Barss wrote:
Joe Fleming wrote:

: Stuart Batty made a sharpening presentation at the Desert Roundup in
: Mesa, Arizona a couple of weeks ago. He explained the edge retention
: differences between carbon steel, M2, M4, 2030, 2060, V10 (A11), and
: V15. He also explained the differences in the metal's matrix and how
: sharpening affects that. For the really hard steels, he advocates
: honing.

: His conclusion is that a really hard metal is best because you can
: barely take one pass on the outside of an 8" bowl before the edge
: dulls too much.

Did he have a recommendation (out of the ones you mention above) as to
which is best? And was there one that's a good price/performance option?

-- Andy Barss