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Roughing
I've been turning some dry ash branches (firewood), about 4-5 inches in
diameter, for between-centers practice. And I was curious: what do you experienced turners use to rough out such stock? I have a 1/2" bowl gouge with what could best be described as an Ellsworth-type grind, and I also have a couple of more traditional shallow roughing gouges. Oddly enough the Ellsworth bowl gouge does a far better job of roughing the bark and knots off the branch sections than the roughing gouges. The answer seems obvious, but I was curious--why, if an Ellsworth-type gouge is superior for roughing, do the traditional shallow roughing gouges even exist? Apparently the answer is not quite so simple. I'd love to hear from others on this. Jeff |
In article t,
"Jeff" wrote: if an Ellsworth-type gouge is superior for roughing, do the traditional shallow roughing gouges even exist? Are you sure what you're calling a "shallow roughing gouge" is a true roughing gouge? My 3/4" roughing gouge has about 3/4" flute depth - not shallow to in my mind. Here's a true roughing gouge: http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cg...ction&key=161- 4466 These are generally sharpened with a fairly steep bevel - on the order of 45 degrees or steeper. I'm thinking you're really using a spindle-type gouge which usually has a much longer bevel - like 30 degrees: http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cg...ction&key=161- 1150 You are likely getting a superior cut with the bowl gouge because the bevel ground on the nose is pretty steep at 50-60 degrees. Due to the angle of the bevel, you are making a cutting action with the bowl gouge rather than more of a scraping action the spindle gouge yields - unless you use the two tool types at very different angles on the tool rest. (Holding the spindle gouge with the handle much, much lower so the bevel is more tangential to the wood surface.) -- Owen Lowe Northwest Woodturners, Cascade Woodturners, Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild ___ Safety Tip'o'th'week: Never grind aluminum and steel or iron on the same machine or workstation - Thermite. http://www.hanford.gov/lessons/sitell/ll01/2001-36.htm |
what do you
experienced turners use to rough out such stock? I almost always use the roughing gouge that Owen shows on his first link if I am roughing down an actual log/branch. In fact, I use that exact one. Ground correctly, I can make very short work or rounding out a really nasty log, and it has the blade mass to chew through knots, bark inclusions, etc. with no problem. Actually, when it is cutting well, I am reluctant to put it down. Once you get your grind established, you can turn off some pretty nice curlies with it. Robert |
"Jeff" wrote in message k.net... I've been turning some dry ash branches (firewood), about 4-5 inches in diameter, for between-centers practice. And I was curious: what do you experienced turners use to rough out such stock? I have a 1/2" bowl gouge with what could best be described as an Ellsworth-type grind, and I also have a couple of more traditional shallow roughing gouges. Oddly enough the Ellsworth bowl gouge does a far better job of roughing the bark and knots off the branch sections than the roughing gouges. The answer seems obvious, but I was curious--why, if an Ellsworth-type gouge is superior for roughing, do the traditional shallow roughing gouges even exist? Apparently the answer is not quite so simple. I'd love to hear from others on this. Answer is you know how to work the one, but not the other. Shallow forged gouges exist because a large-radius gouge can get more bevel to guide on the work for the same depth of cut than a small radius. What most people do by turning their bowl gouges up on their tails and leaning them against the rest, the shallow types do while fully supported at near 90 degrees. Almost impossible to get a catch in a bowl with that much bevel guiding, and a constant bevel angle as well. Everyone develops favorite tools for an operation. Matter of style and preference, but try other patterns as you turn to learn how they work. Might just avoid one of those "why is it I never thought of that" (head slap) moments down the road when someone teaches you another way. |
I think you have discovered one of the attractions of the Ellsworth Gouge
(and other side grind gouges)..........they are very versatile and can be used very successfully for many, many different cuts. If I had to give up all my gouges save one, I'd hang on to the Ellsworth. Barry "Jeff" wrote in message k.net... I've been turning some dry ash branches (firewood), about 4-5 inches in diameter, for between-centers practice. And I was curious: what do you experienced turners use to rough out such stock? I have a 1/2" bowl gouge with what could best be described as an Ellsworth-type grind, and I also have a couple of more traditional shallow roughing gouges. Oddly enough the Ellsworth bowl gouge does a far better job of roughing the bark and knots off the branch sections than the roughing gouges. The answer seems obvious, but I was curious--why, if an Ellsworth-type gouge is superior for roughing, do the traditional shallow roughing gouges even exist? Apparently the answer is not quite so simple. I'd love to hear from others on this. Jeff |
"Owen Lowe" wrote in message ... In article t, "Jeff" wrote: if an Ellsworth-type gouge is superior for roughing, do the traditional shallow roughing gouges even exist? Are you sure what you're calling a "shallow roughing gouge" is a true roughing gouge? My 3/4" roughing gouge has about 3/4" flute depth - not shallow to in my mind. Here's a true roughing gouge: http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cg...ction&key=161- 4466 These are generally sharpened with a fairly steep bevel - on the order of 45 degrees or steeper. I'm thinking you're really using a spindle-type gouge which usually has a much longer bevel - like 30 degrees: http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cg...ction&key=161- 1150 You are likely getting a superior cut with the bowl gouge because the bevel ground on the nose is pretty steep at 50-60 degrees. Due to the angle of the bevel, you are making a cutting action with the bowl gouge rather than more of a scraping action the spindle gouge yields - unless you use the two tool types at very different angles on the tool rest. (Holding the spindle gouge with the handle much, much lower so the bevel is more tangential to the wood surface.) Owen, I couldn't get the pages on the links to come up (my security is probably set too stringently), but I looked them up in the catalog nonetheless. My roughing gouge is about the same: a 1 1/2" gouge with a 3/4" flute depth and ground to about 45 to 50 degrees. This geometry is, IMHO, rather a shallow gouge when compared with the deep profile of the Ellsworth-type. My Ellsworth gouge is ground with about the same angle, or slightly steeper, maybe about 60 degrees. I'm using either gouge with the bevel rubbing as much as possible. Ellsworth, in his DVD, likes to rough out stock with the gouge level, in other words with something between a scraping cut and a bevel-rubbing cut. I tried this but with somewhat less success than bevel rubbing, ie--dropping the handle somewhat. Does this info help? Jeff |
wrote in message oups.com... what do you experienced turners use to rough out such stock? I almost always use the roughing gouge that Owen shows on his first link if I am roughing down an actual log/branch. In fact, I use that exact one. Ground correctly, I can make very short work or rounding out a really nasty log, and it has the blade mass to chew through knots, bark inclusions, etc. with no problem. Actually, when it is cutting well, I am reluctant to put it down. Once you get your grind established, you can turn off some pretty nice curlies with it. Robert, Mine is a Henry Taylor 1.5" roughing gouge, which has fair mass and probably has been reground somewhat more steeply than it was from the factory. I bought it second hand with about 1" of the original flute missing due to years of sharpening by the previous owner. Still it is a good tool and worth keeping. I just wish I got better results with it than with my Ellsworth-type bowl gouge. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong. I try to keep the bevel rubbing as much as possible. Is this an improper way to use this tool? Jeff |
"George" George@least wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message k.net... I've been turning some dry ash branches (firewood), about 4-5 inches in diameter, for between-centers practice. And I was curious: what do you experienced turners use to rough out such stock? I have a 1/2" bowl gouge with what could best be described as an Ellsworth-type grind, and I also have a couple of more traditional shallow roughing gouges. Oddly enough the Ellsworth bowl gouge does a far better job of roughing the bark and knots off the branch sections than the roughing gouges. The answer seems obvious, but I was curious--why, if an Ellsworth-type gouge is superior for roughing, do the traditional shallow roughing gouges even exist? Apparently the answer is not quite so simple. I'd love to hear from others on this. Answer is you know how to work the one, but not the other. Shallow forged gouges exist because a large-radius gouge can get more bevel to guide on the work for the same depth of cut than a small radius. What most people do by turning their bowl gouges up on their tails and leaning them against the rest, the shallow types do while fully supported at near 90 degrees. Almost impossible to get a catch in a bowl with that much bevel guiding, and a constant bevel angle as well. Everyone develops favorite tools for an operation. Matter of style and preference, but try other patterns as you turn to learn how they work. Might just avoid one of those "why is it I never thought of that" (head slap) moments down the road when someone teaches you another way. I'm not exactly sure what you're implying, but I will try some other angles and approaches to the stock. I guess my redundant question is: should I rub the bevel of a roughing gouge, or approach the work with the tool horizontal to the spindle center? Thanks, Jeff |
"Barry N. Turner" wrote in message . .. I think you have discovered one of the attractions of the Ellsworth Gouge (and other side grind gouges)..........they are very versatile and can be used very successfully for many, many different cuts. If I had to give up all my gouges save one, I'd hang on to the Ellsworth. At this point that would be my position as well, Barry. Others have suggested some changes to my technique with the roughing gouge, which I hope will improve my performance. But the Ellsworth grind is hard to fault for a great many things. After watching Ellsworth's DVD I've learned to scrape, shear scrape, do something not unlike skew cutting, and of course using the tool as a typical bowl gouge. It's a shear joy (no pun intended) to watch long ribbons of shavings fly off wet wood. I love the thing. Jeff |
"Jeff" wrote in message .net... I'm not exactly sure what you're implying, but I will try some other angles and approaches to the stock. I guess my redundant question is: should I rub the bevel of a roughing gouge, or approach the work with the tool horizontal to the spindle center? Yes. Some like to use the wing of the U as a tenon-sizer, hugging the toolrest and entering above centerline with a bit of handle-down angle which effectively rubs the bevel along the axis of rotation. Think of your parting tool. Others use the standard cutting method just at or above centerline which goes A-B-C. Anchor the tool to the rest. Bevel to the work - heel to toe. Cut by moving the handle to lift the rear of the bevel as the tool is moved along the axis to enter and remove a curl. With a roughing gouge you can tilt the "ear" to follow the cut, making a surface as smooth as any made by a skew. Note, that the presence of the curl is what tells you you're cutting rather than scraping. That, and minimal lift on the handle of the gouge. |
In article . net,
"Jeff" wrote: I couldn't get the pages on the links to come up (my security is probably set too stringently), but I looked them up in the catalog nonetheless. My roughing gouge is about the same: a 1 1/2" gouge with a 3/4" flute depth and ground to about 45 to 50 degrees. This geometry is, IMHO, rather a shallow gouge when compared with the deep profile of the Ellsworth-type. My Ellsworth gouge is ground with about the same angle, or slightly steeper, maybe about 60 degrees. I'm using either gouge with the bevel rubbing as much as possible. Ellsworth, in his DVD, likes to rough out stock with the gouge level, in other words with something between a scraping cut and a bevel-rubbing cut. I tried this but with somewhat less success than bevel rubbing, ie--dropping the handle somewhat. Hi Jeff. It sounds like you know a roughing gouge from a spindle gouge so I'll just offer a couple additional comments. I'd try reshaping the roughing gouge to a steeper bevel - like 60 degrees and see if that changes things. There's absolutely no reason you can't or shouldn't use your bowl gouge to rough out though it does mean more sharpenings on a more expensive tool. I've used my swept-back gouge for this purpose too, but there are advantages to using a true roughing gouge for this type of work. The longer cutting edge offers a longer time between sharpenings removing the very abrasive bark and hard knot stumps as one can roll the tool one way or the other to get a fresh edge. Along the lines of what Robert (nailshooter) mentioned, once the wood is trued you can also more easily use the roughing gouge to quickly and fluidly reduce the bulk of the wood to the form you're after. The bowl gouge's comparatively small nose and swept-back geometry doesn't lend itself to that as well. In comparing the cut quality of the two tools, you may be seeing the effects of the smaller bite of the bowl gouge which likely leads to less tear out of the rough, irregular surface. Once the circumference is trued though, the roughing gouge can yield a very smooth and cleanly cut surface. -- Owen Lowe Northwest Woodturners, Cascade Woodturners, Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild ___ Safety Tip'o'th'week: Never grind aluminum and steel or iron on the same machine or workstation - Thermite. http://www.hanford.gov/lessons/sitell/ll01/2001-36.htm |
"Owen Lowe" wrote in message Hi Jeff. It sounds like you know a roughing gouge from a spindle gouge so I'll just offer a couple additional comments. I'd try reshaping the roughing gouge to a steeper bevel - like 60 degrees and see if that changes things. There's absolutely no reason you can't or shouldn't use your bowl gouge to rough out though it does mean more sharpenings on a more expensive tool. I've used my swept-back gouge for this purpose too, but there are advantages to using a true roughing gouge for this type of work. The longer cutting edge offers a longer time between sharpenings removing the very abrasive bark and hard knot stumps as one can roll the tool one way or the other to get a fresh edge. Along the lines of what Robert (nailshooter) mentioned, once the wood is trued you can also more easily use the roughing gouge to quickly and fluidly reduce the bulk of the wood to the form you're after. The bowl gouge's comparatively small nose and swept-back geometry doesn't lend itself to that as well. In comparing the cut quality of the two tools, you may be seeing the effects of the smaller bite of the bowl gouge which likely leads to less tear out of the rough, irregular surface. Once the circumference is trued though, the roughing gouge can yield a very smooth and cleanly cut surface. I spent a couple of hours this afternoon roughing out a couple of ash branch sections. While I didn't immediately notice any improvement in the speed of roughing the stock to cylinder form with the roughing gouge used as recommended by you and others, you are absolutely correct in the surface quality differences between the bowl gouge and the roughing gouge. I took a little additional time to see what level of surface I could obtain with some judicious use of the roughing gouge after a quick honing, and liked the results. My roughing gouge is an older one, bought second hand, and missing about an inch of the flute, having been ground away by its previous owner over the years. Perhaps the one thing I'd like to have is a newer, longer roughing gouge with a bit more mass to dampen the roughing process a bit more. I think this might be one reason I tended to prefer the Ellsworth gouge--it is long, relatively massive, and takes a smaller bite, thus lessening the tendency to bounce on the rest despite an under-the-rest-and-over-the-tool grip. Thanks to Owen and the rest of you for your advice. The learning curve is fairly steep at this stage, and every detail helps. Jeff |
"Jeff" wrote in message nk.net... Perhaps the one thing I'd like to have is a newer, longer roughing gouge with a bit more mass to dampen the roughing process a bit more. I think this might be one reason I tended to prefer the Ellsworth gouge--it is long, relatively massive, and takes a smaller bite, thus lessening the tendency to bounce on the rest despite an under-the-rest-and-over-the-tool grip. Thanks to Owen and the rest of you for your advice. The learning curve is fairly steep at this stage, and every detail helps. Would you like a picture of how to approach an irregular shape with a roughing gouge? It should _never_ bounce on the rest, and once the piece is pretty well round, you should be able to lift one hand - either one - and continue the cut. It's in the angles. |
Heh, heh, heh.........addictive.....ain't it???
Barry "Jeff" wrote in message k.net... "Barry N. Turner" wrote in message . .. I think you have discovered one of the attractions of the Ellsworth Gouge (and other side grind gouges)..........they are very versatile and can be used very successfully for many, many different cuts. If I had to give up all my gouges save one, I'd hang on to the Ellsworth. At this point that would be my position as well, Barry. Others have suggested some changes to my technique with the roughing gouge, which I hope will improve my performance. But the Ellsworth grind is hard to fault for a great many things. After watching Ellsworth's DVD I've learned to scrape, shear scrape, do something not unlike skew cutting, and of course using the tool as a typical bowl gouge. It's a shear joy (no pun intended) to watch long ribbons of shavings fly off wet wood. I love the thing. Jeff |
"George" George@least wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message nk.net... Perhaps the one thing I'd like to have is a newer, longer roughing gouge with a bit more mass to dampen the roughing process a bit more. I think this might be one reason I tended to prefer the Ellsworth gouge--it is long, relatively massive, and takes a smaller bite, thus lessening the tendency to bounce on the rest despite an under-the-rest-and-over-the-tool grip. Thanks to Owen and the rest of you for your advice. The learning curve is fairly steep at this stage, and every detail helps. Would you like a picture of how to approach an irregular shape with a roughing gouge? It should _never_ bounce on the rest, and once the piece is pretty well round, you should be able to lift one hand - either one - and continue the cut. It's in the angles. A photo would be appreciated and helpful. Perhaps "bouncing isn't quite the right term. It's probably more like pulsing in and out across the rest as the irregular shape pushes the gouge away and then my grip pushes it back. Even when the stock is fairly round I still get some "pulsing." Jeff |
"Barry N. Turner" wrote in message . .. "Jeff" wrote in message k.net... "Barry N. Turner" wrote in message . .. I think you have discovered one of the attractions of the Ellsworth Gouge (and other side grind gouges)..........they are very versatile and can be used very successfully for many, many different cuts. If I had to give up all my gouges save one, I'd hang on to the Ellsworth. At this point that would be my position as well, Barry. Others have suggested some changes to my technique with the roughing gouge, which I hope will improve my performance. But the Ellsworth grind is hard to fault for a great many things. After watching Ellsworth's DVD I've learned to scrape, shear scrape, do something not unlike skew cutting, and of course using the tool as a typical bowl gouge. It's a shear joy (no pun intended) to watch long ribbons of shavings fly off wet wood. I love the thing. Jeff Heh, heh, heh.........addictive.....ain't it??? Barry The Ellsworth grind is not radically different from other side grinds I've tried, but it certainly does function differently. I've produced enough wet pine shavings over the past month to become a serious supplier of stall bedding for a couple of friends with horses. There is something therapeutic about watching long tendrils of pine streaking away at high velocity from the flute in that gouge. My wife has accused me of making shavings, not turnings. Mea culpa, I suppose. Jeff |
In article . net,
"Jeff" wrote: A photo would be appreciated and helpful. Perhaps "bouncing isn't quite the right term. It's probably more like pulsing in and out across the rest as the irregular shape pushes the gouge away and then my grip pushes it back. Even when the stock is fairly round I still get some "pulsing." I'm likely going to catch hell from some for suggesting this... Make sure the wood is secure on the lathe and then turn the speed up a bit more. It sounds like you're going a bit slow and the tool is advancing into the voids of the irregular surface, resulting in a forceful impact when the void passes and you're back into wood. This will inevitably cause a bigger bite than intended and a more torn surface. Although you can feel this sort of thing with most speeds if you're pushing in too much and not allowing the tool to cut at its own rate, it's very noticeable when in the slower RPM ranges. Just to give an idea of what speed I'm talking about, for a 3"-4", bark-on piece I'd be in the 1200-1800 range. (If your lathe is walking around your shop from the unbalanced wood or if it just feels like too much vibration to hold the tool steady and controllably, back off the RPMs a tad until things smooth out to a reasonable degree.) Do you glance at the top of the spinning wood to watch the cut proceed? If not, with practice you'll find it's a good place to judge the progress of the tool and the developing form. If you do already, then try to only take off about 1/16" - 1/8" of wood per traversing pass. Especially with roughing, you want the cut to be shallow until you almost eliminate all the high spots and the piece is trued. -- Owen Lowe Northwest Woodturners, Cascade Woodturners, Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild ___ Safety Tip'o'th'week: Never grind aluminum and steel or iron on the same machine or workstation - Thermite. http://www.hanford.gov/lessons/sitell/ll01/2001-36.htm |
"Jeff" wrote in message ink.net... A photo would be appreciated and helpful. Perhaps "bouncing isn't quite the right term. It's probably more like pulsing in and out across the rest as the irregular shape pushes the gouge away and then my grip pushes it back. Even when the stock is fairly round I still get some "pulsing." Glad to hear it isn't bouncing. Contactus interruptus is of course always going to be there until the surface is round. Some folks never get to round because they keep trying to stuff the tool into the work instead of letting the work come to them. Your gouge doesn't need mass, in the proper cutting configuration it's laying on a fixed support with your hand on it for coarse control. The B step consists not in laying the bevel to the interrupted surface, but matching the bevel to the slope of the surface, making the same entry cut as you would on a round piece once you feel a bit of contact. That way you cut away most of what would make it bounce. I'm going to be down in the shop after eleven, so I'll try to pop a couple pictures of spindle rounding the way I teach it. Loss of drive took away most of my previous photos. |
You might also want to look at your technique. Your upper hand, the one
on the tool rest should act as a depth gauge while turning. It should be held against some part of the rest and not allow the tool to go where it wants to go. Some rests have a hollow on the back side which makes a perfect place to use an index finger for the purpose. Most rests, though, are mis-designed in my opinion. Also, use body English to move the tool, not your hands. Lock your elbows against your body. Also, I don't think 'traversing passes' is the way to go to get a blank round. It is more... (I'll describe it for right-handed) Take a small scoop from the left end of the blank, scooping to the left and with the gouge rolled to the left. Back up to the right a little and take another scoop, the same way. Work from the left end of the blank to the right. This speeds removal of the material and also if there is any grain which might lift out, it won't lift more than a short distance. With a little practice this motion will become natural even though it is not at first. When you are near round, then you can start traversing passes to finish. Bill Owen Lowe wrote: In article . net, "Jeff" wrote: A photo would be appreciated and helpful. Perhaps "bouncing isn't quite the right term. It's probably more like pulsing in and out across the rest as the irregular shape pushes the gouge away and then my grip pushes it back. Even when the stock is fairly round I still get some "pulsing." I'm likely going to catch hell from some for suggesting this... Make sure the wood is secure on the lathe and then turn the speed up a bit more. It sounds like you're going a bit slow and the tool is advancing into the voids of the irregular surface, resulting in a forceful impact when the void passes and you're back into wood. This will inevitably cause a bigger bite than intended and a more torn surface. Although you can feel this sort of thing with most speeds if you're pushing in too much and not allowing the tool to cut at its own rate, it's very noticeable when in the slower RPM ranges. Just to give an idea of what speed I'm talking about, for a 3"-4", bark-on piece I'd be in the 1200-1800 range. (If your lathe is walking around your shop from the unbalanced wood or if it just feels like too much vibration to hold the tool steady and controllably, back off the RPMs a tad until things smooth out to a reasonable degree.) Do you glance at the top of the spinning wood to watch the cut proceed? If not, with practice you'll find it's a good place to judge the progress of the tool and the developing form. If you do already, then try to only take off about 1/16" - 1/8" of wood per traversing pass. Especially with roughing, you want the cut to be shallow until you almost eliminate all the high spots and the piece is trued. |
"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message ... You might also want to look at your technique. Your upper hand, the one on the tool rest should act as a depth gauge while turning. It should be held against some part of the rest and not allow the tool to go where it wants to go. Some rests have a hollow on the back side which makes a perfect place to use an index finger for the purpose. Most rests, though, are mis-designed in my opinion. Also, use body English to move the tool, not your hands. Lock your elbows against your body. I rough out pretty much the way you've described above, index finger under the rest, thumb on top of the tool in a tight grip, handle against my torso just above the hip, lean my body away from the direction the gouge is progressing, but as Owen implied I am using about 400 to 600 rpm. His recommendation of higher speed will be worth a try. Also, I don't think 'traversing passes' is the way to go to get a blank round. It is more... (I'll describe it for right-handed) Take a small scoop from the left end of the blank, scooping to the left and with the gouge rolled to the left. Back up to the right a little and take another scoop, the same way. Work from the left end of the blank to the right. This speeds removal of the material and also if there is any grain which might lift out, it won't lift more than a short distance. With a little practice this motion will become natural even though it is not at first. I've tended to do the Raffan method, right end to left, but I'll give this a try. When you are near round, then you can start traversing passes to finish. Thanks, Bill. Jeff |
"Owen Lowe" wrote in message ... In article . net, "Jeff" wrote: A photo would be appreciated and helpful. Perhaps "bouncing isn't quite the right term. It's probably more like pulsing in and out across the rest as the irregular shape pushes the gouge away and then my grip pushes it back. Even when the stock is fairly round I still get some "pulsing." I'm likely going to catch hell from some for suggesting this... Make sure the wood is secure on the lathe and then turn the speed up a bit more. It sounds like you're going a bit slow and the tool is advancing into the voids of the irregular surface, resulting in a forceful impact when the void passes and you're back into wood. This will inevitably cause a bigger bite than intended and a more torn surface. Although you can feel this sort of thing with most speeds if you're pushing in too much and not allowing the tool to cut at its own rate, it's very noticeable when in the slower RPM ranges. Just to give an idea of what speed I'm talking about, for a 3"-4", bark-on piece I'd be in the 1200-1800 range. (If your lathe is walking around your shop from the unbalanced wood or if it just feels like too much vibration to hold the tool steady and controllably, back off the RPMs a tad until things smooth out to a reasonable degree.) My lathe is a Jet 1442 with about 200 extra pounds of sand added to a plywood shelf between the legs. It pretty much stays put, the sole exception being when I attempted to rough out a 16" piece of wet hard maple bowl stock while the headstock was turned 45 degrees to the ways. Big mistake--I couldn't get to the off switch quickly enough before the lathe began to dance. Chastened, I won't attempt anything that large without it being between centers for roughing, meaning I'll need a larger lathe eventually. I will give the higher speed a try. I've thought about it, but never attempted it, knowing what the pros say about roughing at higher speeds. Anything, however, is worth a try, at least during the learning process. Do you glance at the top of the spinning wood to watch the cut proceed? If not, with practice you'll find it's a good place to judge the progress of the tool and the developing form. If you do already, then try to only take off about 1/16" - 1/8" of wood per traversing pass. Especially with roughing, you want the cut to be shallow until you almost eliminate all the high spots and the piece is trued. -- Owen Lowe I try to keep the cut as shallow as possible, mostly because I'm still a bit afraid to attempt deeper cuts, especially with very dry stock. With wet wood I seem to be able to apply more force toward the stock with impunity. I guess it seems intuitive to glance at the top of the wood to judge the process of roughing or even finer turning. I've always done that. Jeff |
"George" George@least wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message ink.net... A photo would be appreciated and helpful. Perhaps "bouncing isn't quite the right term. It's probably more like pulsing in and out across the rest as the irregular shape pushes the gouge away and then my grip pushes it back. Even when the stock is fairly round I still get some "pulsing." Glad to hear it isn't bouncing. Contactus interruptus is of course always going to be there until the surface is round. Some folks never get to round because they keep trying to stuff the tool into the work instead of letting the work come to them. Your gouge doesn't need mass, in the proper cutting configuration it's laying on a fixed support with your hand on it for coarse control. The B step consists not in laying the bevel to the interrupted surface, but matching the bevel to the slope of the surface, making the same entry cut as you would on a round piece once you feel a bit of contact. That way you cut away most of what would make it bounce. I'm going to be down in the shop after eleven, so I'll try to pop a couple pictures of spindle rounding the way I teach it. Loss of drive took away most of my previous photos. Thanks, George. A photo, as they say, is worth many words. And a DVD is almost like being there. :-) Jeff |
Actually, I turn left handed most of the time so I described the method
of taking small scoops out of the blank the opposite of the way I do it. The important part is the small scoops so that if you raise a piece of grain it won't split out to the end of the blank but will stop at the next 'scoop'. Bill Jeff wrote: "Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message ... You might also want to look at your technique. Your upper hand, the one on the tool rest should act as a depth gauge while turning. It should be held against some part of the rest and not allow the tool to go where it wants to go. Some rests have a hollow on the back side which makes a perfect place to use an index finger for the purpose. Most rests, though, are mis-designed in my opinion. Also, use body English to move the tool, not your hands. Lock your elbows against your body. I rough out pretty much the way you've described above, index finger under the rest, thumb on top of the tool in a tight grip, handle against my torso just above the hip, lean my body away from the direction the gouge is progressing, but as Owen implied I am using about 400 to 600 rpm. His recommendation of higher speed will be worth a try. Also, I don't think 'traversing passes' is the way to go to get a blank round. It is more... (I'll describe it for right-handed) Take a small scoop from the left end of the blank, scooping to the left and with the gouge rolled to the left. Back up to the right a little and take another scoop, the same way. Work from the left end of the blank to the right. This speeds removal of the material and also if there is any grain which might lift out, it won't lift more than a short distance. With a little practice this motion will become natural even though it is not at first. I've tended to do the Raffan method, right end to left, but I'll give this a try. When you are near round, then you can start traversing passes to finish. Thanks, Bill. Jeff |
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:08:45 GMT, "Jeff" wrote:
"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message . .. You might also want to look at your technique. Your upper hand, the one on the tool rest should act as a depth gauge while turning. It should be held against some part of the rest and not allow the tool to go where it wants to go. Some rests have a hollow on the back side which makes a perfect place to use an index finger for the purpose. Most rests, though, are mis-designed in my opinion. Also, use body English to move the tool, not your hands. Lock your elbows against your body. I rough out pretty much the way you've described above, index finger under the rest, thumb on top of the tool in a tight grip, handle against my torso just above the hip, lean my body away from the direction the gouge is progressing, but as Owen implied I am using about 400 to 600 rpm. His recommendation of higher speed will be worth a try. Also, I don't think 'traversing passes' is the way to go to get a blank round. It is more... (I'll describe it for right-handed) Take a small scoop from the left end of the blank, scooping to the left and with the gouge rolled to the left. Back up to the right a little and take another scoop, the same way. Work from the left end of the blank to the right. This speeds removal of the material and also if there is any grain which might lift out, it won't lift more than a short distance. With a little practice this motion will become natural even though it is not at first. I've tended to do the Raffan method, right end to left, but I'll give this a try. When you are near round, then you can start traversing passes to finish. Thanks, Bill. Jeff Very much like "nibbling" with a saber/jig saw.. I find myself doing it around the outside-bottom edge of bowl blanks that aren't quite round when you get to the edge.. sort of sneak up on them a little at a time.. *g* mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:18:20 GMT, "Jeff" wrote:
"Owen Lowe" wrote in message ... In article . net, "Jeff" wrote: A photo would be appreciated and helpful. Perhaps "bouncing isn't quite the right term. It's probably more like pulsing in and out across the rest as the irregular shape pushes the gouge away and then my grip pushes it back. Even when the stock is fairly round I still get some "pulsing." I'm likely going to catch hell from some for suggesting this... Make sure the wood is secure on the lathe and then turn the speed up a bit more. It sounds like you're going a bit slow and the tool is advancing into the voids of the irregular surface, resulting in a forceful impact when the void passes and you're back into wood. This will inevitably cause a bigger bite than intended and a more torn surface. Although you can feel this sort of thing with most speeds if you're pushing in too much and not allowing the tool to cut at its own rate, it's very noticeable when in the slower RPM ranges. Just to give an idea of what speed I'm talking about, for a 3"-4", bark-on piece I'd be in the 1200-1800 range. (If your lathe is walking around your shop from the unbalanced wood or if it just feels like too much vibration to hold the tool steady and controllably, back off the RPMs a tad until things smooth out to a reasonable degree.) My lathe is a Jet 1442 with about 200 extra pounds of sand added to a plywood shelf between the legs. It pretty much stays put, the sole exception being when I attempted to rough out a 16" piece of wet hard maple bowl stock while the headstock was turned 45 degrees to the ways. Big mistake--I couldn't get to the off switch quickly enough before the lathe began to dance. Chastened, I won't attempt anything that large without it being between centers for roughing, meaning I'll need a larger lathe eventually. I will give the higher speed a try. I've thought about it, but never attempted it, knowing what the pros say about roughing at higher speeds. Anything, however, is worth a try, at least during the learning process. Jeff.. I have the same lathe and love it, though I wish it would turn a bit slower for some work... As to more speed, I tend to do this IF the rough blank or whatever is pretty balanced... as you said, it's hard to turn accurately when you're chasing the lathe all over the shop *g* I remember reading a section on Bill Grumbine's page about turning a natural edge bowl.. http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/naturaledge.html He mentioned that in some cases, he felt safer at higher speeds, because if he got a catch, the time his chisel was in contact with the wood was shorter... If anyone but Bill had said that, I'd be thinking "fuzzy logic", but since I want to be like him if I grow up, I'll believe it.. YMMV mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
"Jeff" wrote in message k.net... Glad to hear it isn't bouncing. Contactus interruptus is of course always going to be there until the surface is round. Some folks never get to round because they keep trying to stuff the tool into the work instead of letting the work come to them. Your gouge doesn't need mass, in the proper cutting configuration it's laying on a fixed support with your hand on it for coarse control. The B step consists not in laying the bevel to the interrupted surface, but matching the bevel to the slope of the surface, making the same entry cut as you would on a round piece once you feel a bit of contact. That way you cut away most of what would make it bounce. I'm going to be down in the shop after eleven, so I'll try to pop a couple pictures of spindle rounding the way I teach it. Loss of drive took away most of my previous photos. Thanks, George. A photo, as they say, is worth many words. And a DVD is almost like being there. :-) http://georgephoto.photosite.com/GeorgeTurns/ Had my Son-in-law take a series for me. He and the daughter are over so we can put together the doors for their downstairs display cabinet. Cut the cope/mold and glue up two more every 45 minutes. Only two sets of Besseys. Black ash, and quite handsome. I do not advocate increasing speed. It will make it easier to chop the wood, or saw off with a less-than sharp gouge, as you can see in pictures eight and nine, where I grabbed a medium-dull forged gouge to show that attack angle, since you mentioned it. Picture seven shows the side scrape, which is fine for sizing tenons and such, but produces a sad surface. All taken at 650 rpm, which is fine. I use 650 for the 1/8 icecicles on ornaments, and roughing 10" bowls too, because cutting wood doesn't take a lot of energy - if the tool's presented right. Picture five demonstrates the swing to make coves technique, and the obvious difficulty encountered when you find you're not running downhill any more. Of course, this is a chunk of red oak, which is going to show a tear if you get the slightest bit out of line. Other woods are friendlier on uphill cuts, though none of them like it.. So, look at one through four, captions come up when highlighted, and use the whittling method shown there. If you catch the guy on DiY, he gives the reasons for establishing and maintaining a downhill all along the blank. Just plain makes sense |
"mac davis" wrote in message Jeff.. I have the same lathe and love it, though I wish it would turn a bit slower for some work... I figure it will make buying the next lathe--one with an electronic VS drive--all that much sweeter. It's rather like a kid forced to drive a Yugo prior to getting his first real car. As to more speed, I tend to do this IF the rough blank or whatever is pretty balanced... as you said, it's hard to turn accurately when you're chasing the lathe all over the shop *g* I remember reading a section on Bill Grumbine's page about turning a natural edge bowl.. http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/naturaledge.html He mentioned that in some cases, he felt safer at higher speeds, because if he got a catch, the time his chisel was in contact with the wood was shorter... If anyone but Bill had said that, I'd be thinking "fuzzy logic", but since I want to be like him if I grow up, I'll believe it.. YMMV I tried roughing at about 850 rpm instead of 450, and voila ! it simply worked better in all respects. Less pulsing of the tool against the out-of-round stock, faster cutting, and less tendency to catch, which had been happening periodically at 450 rpm. That said, the branch chunks I've been roughing are not too out-of-round, or 850 might have been a bit too fast. I like the 1442 as well. For the money I think it's tough to beat. A great beginner's lathe with the ability to keep an experienced turner from complaining too loudly. Jeff |
"George" George@least wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message k.net... Glad to hear it isn't bouncing. Contactus interruptus is of course always going to be there until the surface is round. Some folks never get to round because they keep trying to stuff the tool into the work instead of letting the work come to them. Your gouge doesn't need mass, in the proper cutting configuration it's laying on a fixed support with your hand on it for coarse control. The B step consists not in laying the bevel to the interrupted surface, but matching the bevel to the slope of the surface, making the same entry cut as you would on a round piece once you feel a bit of contact. That way you cut away most of what would make it bounce. I'm going to be down in the shop after eleven, so I'll try to pop a couple pictures of spindle rounding the way I teach it. Loss of drive took away most of my previous photos. Thanks, George. A photo, as they say, is worth many words. And a DVD is almost like being there. :-) http://georgephoto.photosite.com/GeorgeTurns/ Had my Son-in-law take a series for me. He and the daughter are over so we can put together the doors for their downstairs display cabinet. Cut the cope/mold and glue up two more every 45 minutes. Only two sets of Besseys. Black ash, and quite handsome. I do not advocate increasing speed. It will make it easier to chop the wood, or saw off with a less-than sharp gouge, as you can see in pictures eight and nine, where I grabbed a medium-dull forged gouge to show that attack angle, since you mentioned it. Picture seven shows the side scrape, which is fine for sizing tenons and such, but produces a sad surface. All taken at 650 rpm, which is fine. I use 650 for the 1/8 icecicles on ornaments, and roughing 10" bowls too, because cutting wood doesn't take a lot of energy - if the tool's presented right. Picture five demonstrates the swing to make coves technique, and the obvious difficulty encountered when you find you're not running downhill any more. Of course, this is a chunk of red oak, which is going to show a tear if you get the slightest bit out of line. Other woods are friendlier on uphill cuts, though none of them like it.. So, look at one through four, captions come up when highlighted, and use the whittling method shown there. If you catch the guy on DiY, he gives the reasons for establishing and maintaining a downhill all along the blank. Just plain makes sense Thanks, George. Great set of photos, and very helpful. As an aside, I tried 850 rpm instead of 450 today for roughing and everything went better. That said, my Ellsworth gouge still does a faster, better job of roughing than my 1.5" roughing gouge. I have no idea why, as I think I'm presenting each properly now, but that's just the way things seem to be. Now I have to figure out how to use a skew properly. Raffan makes it look so easy, and I'm struggling. Thanks again. Jeff |
"Jeff" wrote in
k.net: snip Now I have to figure out how to use a skew properly. Raffan makes it look so easy, and I'm struggling. Thanks again. Jeff See if you can find one or more of Alan Lacer's videos on the use of the skew... Patriarch |
"Patriarch" wrote in message . 97.136... "Jeff" wrote in k.net: snip Now I have to figure out how to use a skew properly. Raffan makes it look so easy, and I'm struggling. Thanks again. Jeff See if you can find one or more of Alan Lacer's videos on the use of the skew... Patriarch Both Packard and Craft Supplies sells them. Are they really that significantly better than Richard Raffan's treatise on the skew? Jeff |
In article t,
"Jeff" wrote: Both Packard and Craft Supplies sells them. Are they really that significantly better than Richard Raffan's treatise on the skew? A resounding YES! At least the first one, "The Skew Chisel". I haven't seen the second tape yet, "Son of Skew". -- Owen Lowe Northwest Woodturners, Cascade Woodturners, Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild ___ Safety Tip'o'th'week: Never grind aluminum and steel or iron on the same machine or workstation - Thermite. http://www.hanford.gov/lessons/sitell/ll01/2001-36.htm |
"Jeff" wrote in message k.net... See if you can find one or more of Alan Lacer's videos on the use of the skew... Patriarch Both Packard and Craft Supplies sells them. Are they really that significantly better than Richard Raffan's treatise on the skew? Better yet, find or make a good beading tool. Never could figure out why they aren't in the standard tool kit. Skew's a great planing tool, but at trims and beads, second-rate. |
"George" George@least wrote in message ... Better yet, find or make a good beading tool. Never could figure out why they aren't in the standard tool kit. Skew's a great planing tool, but at trims and beads, second-rate. Having spent only about half an hour with a skew, I'm convinced it is worthless. Of course this assessment can mean only one thing: I have no idea how to use a skew. I can get a reasonably smooth cylinder, but attempting to face endgrain or to make beads has been less than successful. Raffan makes it look sooo easy. Could my skew be ground wrong? It is very sharp, but has some hollow aspect to the bevels. Is it absolutely necessary to hone the bevels until you've got some flats on them? And would I be better off with a slightly curved edge, rather than a straight one? Sorry for all the questions. Jeff |
"Jeff" wrote in message k.net... "George" George@least wrote in message ... Better yet, find or make a good beading tool. Never could figure out why they aren't in the standard tool kit. Skew's a great planing tool, but at trims and beads, second-rate. Having spent only about half an hour with a skew, I'm convinced it is worthless. Of course this assessment can mean only one thing: I have no idea how to use a skew. I can get a reasonably smooth cylinder, but attempting to face endgrain or to make beads has been less than successful. Raffan makes it look sooo easy. Could my skew be ground wrong? It is very sharp, but has some hollow aspect to the bevels. Is it absolutely necessary to hone the bevels until you've got some flats on them? And would I be better off with a slightly curved edge, rather than a straight one? Nope, you've described the strengths and weaknesses of the skew to a "T". With that nose hanging over, you have to cut down _and _ in nearly simultaneously to avoid a spiral. When you use it nose up, of course, you get a rougher cut than nose down, because you're lifting the fibers. One of the things people do to protect themselves is to round the skew, providing some clearance for the otherwise unnoticed uninvolved edge. Makes it much less a planer, though, so unless you have a good roughing gouge technique, I'd tough out the learning process. After twenty or so years perhaps you'll be where I am, wondering why in the H*ll you bother. |
"George" George@least wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message k.net... "George" George@least wrote in message ... Better yet, find or make a good beading tool. Never could figure out why they aren't in the standard tool kit. Skew's a great planing tool, but at trims and beads, second-rate. Having spent only about half an hour with a skew, I'm convinced it is worthless. Of course this assessment can mean only one thing: I have no idea how to use a skew. I can get a reasonably smooth cylinder, but attempting to face endgrain or to make beads has been less than successful. Raffan makes it look sooo easy. Could my skew be ground wrong? It is very sharp, but has some hollow aspect to the bevels. Is it absolutely necessary to hone the bevels until you've got some flats on them? And would I be better off with a slightly curved edge, rather than a straight one? Nope, you've described the strengths and weaknesses of the skew to a "T". With that nose hanging over, you have to cut down _and _ in nearly simultaneously to avoid a spiral. When you use it nose up, of course, you get a rougher cut than nose down, because you're lifting the fibers. One of the things people do to protect themselves is to round the skew, providing some clearance for the otherwise unnoticed uninvolved edge. Makes it much less a planer, though, so unless you have a good roughing gouge technique, I'd tough out the learning process. After twenty or so years perhaps you'll be where I am, wondering why in the H*ll you bother. LOL. I believe I've already reached that point, rather from ignorance and frustration than from extensive experience. My primary interest is bowls, platters, and hollow forms, with which I've had some degree of success to date. But I decided that I'd better learn to do between-centers work if I ever aspire to be a complete woodturner. I've been attempting to learn the skew and roughing gouge on dry ash branches. I may see if I can collect some wet soft wood branches--we almost always have trees being trimmed or cut down in this area--for learning purposes. Overall I believe it is my *patience* that need the most work, however. Thanks for all your kind assistance, George. And to all the others as well. Jeff |
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:34:22 GMT, "Jeff" wrote:
"George" George@least wrote in message ... "Jeff" wrote in message k.net... "George" George@least wrote in message ... Better yet, find or make a good beading tool. Never could figure out why they aren't in the standard tool kit. Skew's a great planing tool, but at trims and beads, second-rate. Having spent only about half an hour with a skew, I'm convinced it is worthless. Of course this assessment can mean only one thing: I have no idea how to use a skew. I can get a reasonably smooth cylinder, but attempting to face endgrain or to make beads has been less than successful. Raffan makes it look sooo easy. Could my skew be ground wrong? It is very sharp, but has some hollow aspect to the bevels. Is it absolutely necessary to hone the bevels until you've got some flats on them? And would I be better off with a slightly curved edge, rather than a straight one? Nope, you've described the strengths and weaknesses of the skew to a "T". With that nose hanging over, you have to cut down _and _ in nearly simultaneously to avoid a spiral. When you use it nose up, of course, you get a rougher cut than nose down, because you're lifting the fibers. One of the things people do to protect themselves is to round the skew, providing some clearance for the otherwise unnoticed uninvolved edge. Makes it much less a planer, though, so unless you have a good roughing gouge technique, I'd tough out the learning process. After twenty or so years perhaps you'll be where I am, wondering why in the H*ll you bother. LOL. I believe I've already reached that point, rather from ignorance and frustration than from extensive experience. My primary interest is bowls, platters, and hollow forms, with which I've had some degree of success to date. But I decided that I'd better learn to do between-centers work if I ever aspire to be a complete woodturner. I've been attempting to learn the skew and roughing gouge on dry ash branches. I may see if I can collect some wet soft wood branches--we almost always have trees being trimmed or cut down in this area--for learning purposes. Overall I believe it is my *patience* that need the most work, however. Thanks for all your kind assistance, George. And to all the others as well. Jeff Jeff... I can't tell you about technique, but I have a lot of experience with impatience... It's taken me years to learn to do 2 things: When it stops being fun, go do something else for an hour or so.. your subconscious will be working on it and will bring you back to the project with a better mind set.. When I was "younger", I was always in a hurry to finish things.. if a step involved waiting for something, I'd skip it.. Now, when I'm up against something like glue setting or a finish drying, I go play on the computer, mow the lawn, beat the grand kids, whatever.. just to force myself to wait... as a reformed control freak, it's been an uphill battle.. lol I really haven't learned patience as much as the ability to recognize my impatience and deal with it.. group hugs help, too.. *g* mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
Jeff wrote:
I've been attempting to learn the skew and roughing gouge on dry ash branches. I may see if I can collect some wet soft wood branches--we almost always have trees being trimmed or cut down in this area--for learning purposes. Dry ash is about the worst choice you could make, being quite hard and of coarse texture. Wet softwood will be easier to cut. There will be less force on the tool, so it should be easier for you to control the tools and to get a feel of what is going on at the cutting edge and gain some empathy with the cut. If you find that the softwood has a tendency to tear, which it might, you could also look for some green fruit woods, such as apple or cherry. They are a good compromise between being soft enough to cut easily, but dense enough to take a reasonable finish. Moreover, their density is quite uniform, whereas many softwoods have quite distinct early and late growth. -- Derek Andrews, woodturner http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com http://chipshop.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/ |
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"mac davis" wrote in message Jeff... I can't tell you about technique, but I have a lot of experience with impatience... It's taken me years to learn to do 2 things: When it stops being fun, go do something else for an hour or so.. your subconscious will be working on it and will bring you back to the project with a better mind set.. When I was "younger", I was always in a hurry to finish things.. if a step involved waiting for something, I'd skip it.. Now, when I'm up against something like glue setting or a finish drying, I go play on the computer, mow the lawn, beat the grand kids, whatever.. just to force myself to wait... as a reformed control freak, it's been an uphill battle.. lol I really haven't learned patience as much as the ability to recognize my impatience and deal with it.. group hugs help, too.. *g* My impatience is innate, and I, too, struggle with it. Skew chisels have become my nemesis. They leave such a lovely surface when used correctly, and catch all too frequently. I've even put a slight radius on my larger skew--I'll try that for a while and see if it eliminates some of the catches. If not I'll straighten it out again. It's difficult to see DVDs of pro turners using skews with the same skill I possess with a fork when feeding my face and not get impatient. I too recognize my impatience while being generally unable to eliminate it. (sigh) Jeff |
"Derek Andrews" wrote in message ... Jeff wrote: I've been attempting to learn the skew and roughing gouge on dry ash branches. I may see if I can collect some wet soft wood branches--we almost always have trees being trimmed or cut down in this area--for learning purposes. Dry ash is about the worst choice you could make, being quite hard and of coarse texture. Wet softwood will be easier to cut. There will be less force on the tool, so it should be easier for you to control the tools and to get a feel of what is going on at the cutting edge and gain some empathy with the cut. If you find that the softwood has a tendency to tear, which it might, you could also look for some green fruit woods, such as apple or cherry. They are a good compromise between being soft enough to cut easily, but dense enough to take a reasonable finish. Moreover, their density is quite uniform, whereas many softwoods have quite distinct early and late growth. I've suspected that ash is probably not the best wood on which to learn the skew. But I have so darned much of it, and I also concluded that if I could master the skew on dry ash I could use it on almost anything. Faulty reasoning, probably. Sadly I chose to forego taking some branches from my neighbor's apple tree, which he just cut down last week. Jeff |
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