Is there a way to determine the esthetics of a turned table leg,
banister or spoke in a wheel? Is there a mathematical formula for
proportions or is it just in the eyeball of the woodworker and
experience? Do you determine how deep a cut can be by the minimum
strength needed by the part, cut to depth and then shape the rest of the
part?

I don't want to end up with something that looks like a stack of wooden
balls. Do some of you experienced turners start with a sketch on graph
paper or something?

If I am going to make a bunch of identical parts, is it better to grind
something like a half round in a piece of tool steel so I can use it to
make the same shape in the same place each time and the parts will
match?

DocFont

Doc Font wrote:
Is there a way to determine the esthetics of a turned table leg,
banister or spoke in a wheel? Is there a mathematical formula for
proportions or is it just in the eyeball of the woodworker and
experience? Do you determine how deep a cut can be by the minimum
strength needed by the part, cut to depth and then shape the rest of the
part?

I don't want to end up with something that looks like a stack of wooden
balls. Do some of you experienced turners start with a sketch on graph
paper or something?

If I am going to make a bunch of identical parts, is it better to grind
something like a half round in a piece of tool steel so I can use it to
make the same shape in the same place each time and the parts will
match?

DocFont

Some interesting questions. I'm glad you are thinking about these things
before commencing.

A sketch is a great start, and a more accurate measured drawing is the
next step. I often make a protoype in scrap wood and use that to make
final adjustments before starting the real thing.

Very often you can apply the rule of thirds, or the Golden Mean, either
to the whole spindle, or smaller elements within it. But at the end of
the day, the success of the final result will depend on getting the
right balance between the apparent masses of parts, and placing features
like beads in just the right spot to break large elements into smaller
ones. You would do well to study some spindles to determine all the
features that you are able to use in your design, like beads,
assymetrical beads, ogees, v cuts, shoulders etc.

You are right that mechanically the spindle must be sound. Typically a
table leg can be narrower at the bottom than the top.

Best way to do the work is with skew chisels and gouges. Your plan to
grind your own tool will result in scraping cuts which will most likely
leave a poor quality surface. That approach has limits to the crispness
of the edges and fine details you can achieve. You also have to be
pretty good with your grinder The result would be little better than a
mass produced turning.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/

"Doc Font" wrote in message
...
Is there a way to determine the esthetics of a turned table leg,
banister or spoke in a wheel? Is there a mathematical formula for
proportions or is it just in the eyeball of the woodworker and
experience? Do you determine how deep a cut can be by the minimum
strength needed by the part, cut to depth and then shape the rest of the
part?

I don't want to end up with something that looks like a stack of wooden
balls. Do some of you experienced turners start with a sketch on graph
paper or something?

If I am going to make a bunch of identical parts, is it better to grind
something like a half round in a piece of tool steel so I can use it to
make the same shape in the same place each time and the parts will
match?

Has to be good enough, or maybe a bit better to do the job it's intended
for, so that's the starting point.

Though they won't admit it, I bet most people start with someone else's
idea. I know I do. That's my "pleasing" to the eye. I make my changes in
pencil, then I take it to the house critic. If Susan approves, I'm good for
modification and turning.

As to duplicating tools, it's hardly worth the effort. There are a number
of techniques from caliper and parting tool to shadows and sightlines for
near-duplication. I'm a caliper and part type, others different.

Doc Font wrote in news:docfont-F50F5A.16421726062005
@corp.supernews.com:

Is there a way to determine the esthetics of a turned table leg,
banister or spoke in a wheel? Is there a mathematical formula for
proportions or is it just in the eyeball of the woodworker and
experience? Do you determine how deep a cut can be by the minimum
strength needed by the part, cut to depth and then shape the rest of the
part?


Samples. Prototypes. Models. Trial & error. Catalogs. Old style books.

It's woodWORK. Or practice. Doesn't have to be done with expensive stock.

As to the minimum scale, I have an inbred tendency to overbuild. Being a
well-fed American of Northern European stock, I tend to build sturdily.
The esthetics sometimes suffer.

"It ain't pretty, but it's hell for strong" was learned at my father's
side. I suspect he learned it from his father, a Danish immigrant
blacksmith.

Windsor chairs seem to survive. Carriage wheels often looked too slender
to survive. Using the right woods correctly seems to help. That takes
research, since few of us trained as chairmakers or wheelwrights in our
youth.

Good luck. Take pictures. Ask for opinions of those whose opinion you
value.

Patriarch

[--snip--]
If I am going to make a bunch of identical parts, is it better to grind
something like a half round in a piece of tool steel so I can use it to
make the same shape in the same place each time and the parts will
match?

Aesthetics being in the eye of the beholder, I'll leave that part for others
to argue about. ;]

But when duplicating parts I've found formed scrapers such as you mention to
be of little use. True, they'll reproduce the intial shape alright but
scrapers tend to cause tear-out and by the time you've trimmed everything up
you'll find they're no longer "identical."

I, and most turners I know, use job-sticks... although everyone seems to
have different methods for using them.

Personally I'll turn one item that I'm happy with then I lay a ply off-cut
about 1" wide (and as long as the job) beside it and mark on it each major
change of thickness of the turning. I then use calipers to measure the job
dia at each mark and also note that down at the appropriate marks.

Mount the next blank, lay the stick alongside and transfer the marks back
over, turn down at each mark to the required dimensions using calipers,
frequently referring back to the job-stick and completed item. Finally I
work on blending the curves together, usually by eye but sometimes with a
cardboard template.

It works for me, hope it gives you some ideas of how to make it work for
you.
--
- Andy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Even with an IQ of 6000 it's still brown trousers time." - Holly.

Patriarch wrote:
Windsor chairs seem to survive. Carriage wheels often looked too slender
to survive. Using the right woods correctly seems to help. That takes
research, since few of us trained as chairmakers or wheelwrights in our
youth.

Straight grained wood that has been split rather than sawn is a good
start for making a strong component.


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/

I start looking at other peoples work. I seach the net for table legs or
whatever.

Some I like, some I don't. When I find something I like I move to graph
paper and sketch something similar, adding or subtracting details as I find
appropriate.


Personally I'll turn one item that I'm happy with then I lay a ply off-cut
about 1" wide (and as long as the job) beside it and mark on it each major
change of thickness of the turning. I then use calipers to measure the
job
dia at each mark and also note that down at the appropriate marks.

Mount the next blank, lay the stick alongside and transfer the marks back
over, turn down at each mark to the required dimensions using calipers,
frequently referring back to the job-stick and completed item. Finally I
work on blending the curves together, usually by eye but sometimes with a
cardboard template.

I am *not* a really experienced turner, but this is essentially my process
and it works better than you would imagine.

Make a prototype. After your second spindle no one will be able to tell the
difference between them unless you hold them right up against one another.


-Steve

Doc Font wrote:
Is there a way to determine the esthetics of a turned table leg,
banister or spoke in a wheel? Is there a mathematical formula for
proportions or is it just in the eyeball of the woodworker and
experience? Do you determine how deep a cut can be by the minimum
strength needed by the part, cut to depth and then shape the rest of the
part?

I don't want to end up with something that looks like a stack of wooden
balls. Do some of you experienced turners start with a sketch on graph
paper or something?

If I am going to make a bunch of identical parts, is it better to grind
something like a half round in a piece of tool steel so I can use it to
make the same shape in the same place each time and the parts will
match?

DocFont


Someone mentioned the Golden Mean, and the Golden Ratio...

(See Greek style architecture)

Some proportions that work well are

First: 1:2:3 Classic for boxes

Second: Root two.. Multiply (or divide) one of the elements by 1.41 or
..707 and see if it works and looks good. Adjust either the first
proportion so the second works... You will find a lot of furniture can
be done like this -- I have even found country style in these proportions...

Third: Golden ratio (approx) 13/8 = 1.62 make elements in that
proportion -- multiply or divide by that number... 13:8:5 can work --
depends on number of elements...

Otherwise known as...
Golden Mean, Golden Section, Golden Ratio
http://community.middlebury.edu/~har...oldenMean.html

This section introduces you to some of the occurrences of the Fibonacci
series and the Golden Ratio in architecture, art and music.
http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal.../fibInArt.html

Squiggles in the math -- for those that like them...
http://www.mathsoft.com/mathresource...,,1941,00.html

Weird stuff and good stuff g
http://goldennumber.net/goldsect.htm


Nice demo on unfolding the rectangle -- and you get nicely formed spirals...
http://www.vashti.net/mceinc/golden.htm


Golden Ratio (This one shows the Fibonacci Squares)
http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.golden.ratio.html



The google search...
http://www.google.ca/search?client=f...oog le+Search


Hope you like fiddling with numbers...

If you like this stuff get a "consumer edition" book on number theory
and a good math dictionary. Lots of ideas there if you are into it.

(You will know it is a consumer edition book if there are not too many
squiggles, and they stick to stuff you can follow with good arithmetic
skills. e.g. Excursions in Number theory -- Oxford press - out of print
-- but similar would do...)


I rework a lot of the pieces I do so that they are consistent with these
ratios. Many people who make plans don't seem to know (or apply
maybe...) this stuff and sometimes the designs look "off".

Hope that helps...

There is a country style clock on my web site in "Root 2" proportions.

There is a classical style box -- originally published in one ratio in a
Basic Jewel Box book. A subtle alteration of the ratios... and it has a
slightly oriental feel.

That's what makes this stuff fun.

See if you can find a reference that ties together a tree (growing),
Fibonacci, and the golden mean/ratio section. Then you too will be
allowed to visit area 51 and theorize on aliens, life and the fate of
the universe -- as soon as you understand the relationship that is... :-)



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
http://woodwork.pmccl.com

If you do a sort of "Story Board" with the widths of all of the elements of
your turning, that is the beads, the coves, the shoulders, etc., you'll be
amazed at how well you can eyeball the beads, coves, etc.

Barry


"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
Doc Font wrote:
Is there a way to determine the esthetics of a turned table leg,
banister or spoke in a wheel? Is there a mathematical formula for
proportions or is it just in the eyeball of the woodworker and
experience? Do you determine how deep a cut can be by the minimum
strength needed by the part, cut to depth and then shape the rest of the
part?

I don't want to end up with something that looks like a stack of wooden
balls. Do some of you experienced turners start with a sketch on graph
paper or something?

If I am going to make a bunch of identical parts, is it better to grind
something like a half round in a piece of tool steel so I can use it to
make the same shape in the same place each time and the parts will
match?

DocFont

Some interesting questions. I'm glad you are thinking about these things
before commencing.

A sketch is a great start, and a more accurate measured drawing is the
next step. I often make a protoype in scrap wood and use that to make
final adjustments before starting the real thing.

Very often you can apply the rule of thirds, or the Golden Mean, either
to the whole spindle, or smaller elements within it. But at the end of
the day, the success of the final result will depend on getting the
right balance between the apparent masses of parts, and placing features
like beads in just the right spot to break large elements into smaller
ones. You would do well to study some spindles to determine all the
features that you are able to use in your design, like beads,
assymetrical beads, ogees, v cuts, shoulders etc.

You are right that mechanically the spindle must be sound. Typically a
table leg can be narrower at the bottom than the top.

Best way to do the work is with skew chisels and gouges. Your plan to
grind your own tool will result in scraping cuts which will most likely
leave a poor quality surface. That approach has limits to the crispness
of the edges and fine details you can achieve. You also have to be
pretty good with your grinder The result would be little better than a
mass produced turning.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/