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#1
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New law in Washington: transporting wood
The following newspaper article was circulated around our chapter
meeting the other night. Since we're close to WA as well as have several members from southern Washington it was of importance to the membership. Anyone heard any more about this new law to take effect on July 1? Any idea on how this would even be enforced with firewood cutters, helping out a neighbor, roadside ditch scavenging, etc? Seems cumbersome and not very workable. If it's just targeting BL Maples, are deputies going to be schooled in recognizing pieces from the bark or green wood? Who determines what constitutes "specialty wood"? How much figure is too much? While I can see and understand the frustration and anger of those who have lost property to tree rustlers, it seems to me there could be a more workable solution addressing the wholesale and retail of such wood. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/226446_maplethieves31.html Tuesday, May 31, 2005 Poachers target maple trees for their 'figured' wood Law seeks to halt theft of timber used in fiddles, guitars THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Snip of the full article but take note of the last paragraphs: Officials hope a new law taking effect July 1 will help curtail illegal tree harvesters. The measure requires a permit for transporting "specialty wood," which includes logs of less than 8 feet, free of knots, which can be turned into musical instruments or ornamental boxes. The permit must be signed by the owner and identify the person's property. It also must be endorsed by the sheriff's office and kept with the wood during transport. When the law goes into effect, any person transporting specialty wood without a permit would be in immediate violation of the law. Officers may seize the wood along with the vehicle and tools. |
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"Owen Lowe" wrote in message news The following newspaper article was circulated around our chapter meeting the other night. Since we're close to WA as well as have several members from southern Washington it was of importance to the membership. Anyone heard any more about this new law to take effect on July 1? Any idea on how this would even be enforced with firewood cutters, helping out a neighbor, roadside ditch scavenging, etc? Seems cumbersome and not very workable. If it's just targeting BL Maples, are deputies going to be schooled in recognizing pieces from the bark or green wood? Who determines what constitutes "specialty wood"? How much figure is too much? While I can see and understand the frustration and anger of those who have lost property to tree rustlers, it seems to me there could be a more workable solution addressing the wholesale and retail of such wood. There is a much more workable solution - respect for the property of others. It's like the folks that come traipsing across my place - when asked, they answer "I didn't know who owned it." "You know _you_ don't. Should be enough." Instead we get laws and legalism like "who determines what constitutes 'specialty wood, '" and questions on the competence of those who will have to enforce the law the people's representatives have made. I sign Christmas tree transport permits as landowner every year. Not really a problem. |
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On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 06:53:37 -0400, "George" george@least wrote:
snip There is a much more workable solution - respect for the property of others. It's like the folks that come traipsing across my place - when asked, they answer "I didn't know who owned it." "You know _you_ don't. Should be enough." Instead we get laws and legalism like "who determines what constitutes 'specialty wood, '" and questions on the competence of those who will have to enforce the law the people's representatives have made. I sign Christmas tree transport permits as landowner every year. Not really a problem. IMHO, this is a case of making a new law because they aren't enforcing an old one... Sort of like "cracking down" on drivers with cell phones... I've seen folks that drive fine while on a cell.. others that shouldn't be allowed to drive at all... the point is that there are already several laws that can be enforced, such as reckless driving, etc... enforce the standing law and apply it to maps, radio tuning, makeup, newspapers, shavers, etc... YMMV mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
#4
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In article , "George" george@least
wrote: There is a much more workable solution - respect for the property of others. It's like the folks that come traipsing across my place - when asked, they answer "I didn't know who owned it." "You know _you_ don't. Should be enough." Instead we get laws and legalism like "who determines what constitutes 'specialty wood, '" and questions on the competence of those who will have to enforce the law the people's representatives have made. I sign Christmas tree transport permits as landowner every year. Not really a problem. Consider a couple scenarios that might affect woodturners: 1) you own the tree parts that you are carting to a wood meeting to offer for raffle; 2) you "win" a chunkamapleburl in a raffle in Oregon and cart it home to Washington; 3) the Big Leaf Maple you have stacked up next to your garage was obtained long before this law went into effect - how do you prove it was obtained legally; 4) you come across a line crew removing growth from the vicinity of the electric lines. They are just going to chip it all up and would gladly give you what you wanted but you must first locate the property owner and then visit the county sheriff's office before carting off wood that has a use beyond the chipper. Granted all of these have a work-around but the law is creating criminals out of innocent activities. I can fully understand the desire to stop rustling but I think there's got to be a better way than to consider all who possess and/or transport Big Leaf Maple, Alder and other woods as criminals who rustled their stash from someone's property. Part of the law that has my boxers in a bunch is the requirement to obtain a sheriff's permit for each instance instead of a yearly permit from the state. I'm certain Washington is similar to Oregon and other states in that the sheriff is located at the county seat - not in every town - that would be a 40 mile round trip for me in just my county, not to mention the 4 or 5 other surrounding counties and their respective sheriff's offices. I'm sure there are those reading this who think it's much to do about nothing - after all, it would be pretty easy to conceal much of what we carry around. But is an officer allowed to search a vehicle he has stopped for a traffic violation if he spots a chainsaw or bark pieces on the floormat? Will the occifers be following the musical notes of a chainsaw to ensure the proper permits and permissions have been obtained? Will the woodturning club members be forced to the backroads to and from meetings in the vein of moonshiners? Laugh if you want but consider if your state put in a similar law covering Black Walnut, Cherry, Mesquite, Norfolk Is. Pine, etcetera. |
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On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:38:49 -0700, Owen Lowe
wrote: In article , "George" george@least wrote: Consider a couple scenarios that might affect woodturners: 1) you own the tree parts that you are carting to a wood meeting to offer for raffle; 2) you "win" a chunkamapleburl in a raffle in Oregon and cart it home to Washington; 3) the Big Leaf Maple you have stacked up next to your garage was obtained long before this law went into effect - how do you prove it was obtained legally; 4) you come across a line crew removing growth from the vicinity of the electric lines. They are just going to chip it all up and would gladly give you what you wanted but you must first locate the property owner and then visit the county sheriff's office before carting off wood that has a use beyond the chipper. Granted all of these have a work-around but the law is creating criminals out of innocent activities. I can fully understand the desire to stop rustling but I think there's got to be a better way than to consider all who possess and/or transport Big Leaf Maple, Alder and other woods as criminals who rustled their stash from someone's property. I agree, it's pretty horrendous. I'm not even entirely sure what a tree rustler is, but I can't imagine it's really that common a problem. I know I'd be in trouble if they passed a law of that type in Wisconsin- on weekends, especially after big storms, I like to go onto county land and either cut deadfall that is blocking the trails or pick up stuff the liscensed loggers leave behind for turning purposes (usually crotch wood and the like). I don't trespass on private property, and I never cut a live tree for any reason- but how would the sheriff know, if I were stopped and had no permit? Granted, it's not a law here yet, but it seems like once there's a precedent somewhere for just about anything, everyone wants to jump in eventually. Part of the law that has my boxers in a bunch is the requirement to obtain a sheriff's permit for each instance instead of a yearly permit from the state. I'm certain Washington is similar to Oregon and other states in that the sheriff is located at the county seat - not in every town - that would be a 40 mile round trip for me in just my county, not to mention the 4 or 5 other surrounding counties and their respective sheriff's offices. Yep, it'd be a 45 mile round trip for me as well. I'm sure there are those reading this who think it's much to do about nothing - after all, it would be pretty easy to conceal much of what we carry around. But is an officer allowed to search a vehicle he has stopped for a traffic violation if he spots a chainsaw or bark pieces on the floormat? Will the occifers be following the musical notes of a chainsaw to ensure the proper permits and permissions have been obtained? Will the woodturning club members be forced to the backroads to and from meetings in the vein of moonshiners? Laugh if you want but consider if your state put in a similar law covering Black Walnut, Cherry, Mesquite, Norfolk Is. Pine, etcetera. Agreed, it's not funny- especially the bit about them seizing the vehicle and tools. There are some other laws on the books that allow this (I can't remember the specific cases, but I believe that they generally involve suspected drug dealer and subversive groups) IIRC, the standard procedure is to auction siezed property, and if the trial is held after the auction occurs, the accused is just out of luck, even if they are cleared of all charges. Taking the wood is one thing, but essentially stealing tools and vehicles from a guy bringing a hunk of firewood home from a buddy's house is insane. |
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Hi Owen, We've all had a serious post diverted by 'humor', so I should
have known better and taken care not to appear to laugh at your problem. Some states can take your property by eminent domain then sell it to a private owner and here they can declare your property to be 'historical' and deny any changes thereafter, but not reduce taxes. Our legislature's intentions are often interpreted as they please and enforced or not by unelected staff, usually to the detriment of citizens. Not funny and no . Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#7
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Arch wrote:
Hi Owen, We've all had a serious post diverted by 'humor', so I should have known better and taken care not to appear to laugh at your problem. Some states can take your property by eminent domain then sell it to a private owner and here they can declare your property to be 'historical' and deny any changes thereafter, but not reduce taxes. Solution to that--forget to separate a bunch of oily rags sitting under the pile of lumber in the basement with a few gallon cans of naphtha and other flammable solvents sitting on top of it and go on vacation. Oops. You mean they'll _do_ that? Gee whiz, I never imagined . . . Our legislature's intentions are often interpreted as they please and enforced or not by unelected staff, usually to the detriment of citizens. Not funny and no . Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#8
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Owen, A property owner can protect their timber by letting it be known
that he plans to cut a tree down. The tree huggers will gather, lock arms. sing songs and protect his property, although not his right to use it. In the true spirit of net forums, I must caution you against posting political opinions about Washington's legislature, correct or not. Pertinence is no excuse. Of course, as a self appointed moderator, it's ok for me. "Peace in our time", eh? Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#9
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What's next? Permits required to transport more than $100 cash because it
MIGHT have been illegally obtained? This is a bogus law since it bypasses due-process, and makes a person engaging in free trade (or a hobby) a criminal. This is doubly horrible since there is a simpler solution, which is to have officers stop vehicles transporting timber and inquire about the log, just as they do with any other questionable situation. The best response to such a inquiry is to show the officer a bill of sale (even it is just for a token $1) signed by the former owner. Let's face it, it is a kneejerk law written to a apease voters. Dan http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/226446_maplethieves31.html Tuesday, May 31, 2005 Poachers target maple trees for their 'figured' wood Law seeks to halt theft of timber used in fiddles, guitars THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Snip of the full article but take note of the last paragraphs: Officials hope a new law taking effect July 1 will help curtail illegal tree harvesters. The measure requires a permit for transporting "specialty wood," which includes logs of less than 8 feet, free of knots, which can be turned into musical instruments or ornamental boxes. The permit must be signed by the owner and identify the person's property. It also must be endorsed by the sheriff's office and kept with the wood during transport. When the law goes into effect, any person transporting specialty wood without a permit would be in immediate violation of the law. Officers may seize the wood along with the vehicle and tools. |
#10
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"Dan Bollinger" wrote in This is a bogus law since it bypasses due-process, and makes a person engaging in free trade (or a hobby) a criminal. This is doubly horrible since there is a simpler solution, which is to have officers stop vehicles transporting timber and inquire about the log, just as they do with any other questionable situation. The best response to such a inquiry is to show the officer a bill of sale (even it is just for a token $1) signed by the former owner. Let's face it, it is a kneejerk law written to a apease voters. How do you feel about gypsy moth and emerald ash borer laws? |
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On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 19:20:23 -0400, "George" george@least wrote:
"Dan Bollinger" wrote in This is a bogus law since it bypasses due-process, and makes a person engaging in free trade (or a hobby) a criminal. This is doubly horrible since there is a simpler solution, which is to have officers stop vehicles transporting timber and inquire about the log, just as they do with any other questionable situation. The best response to such a inquiry is to show the officer a bill of sale (even it is just for a token $1) signed by the former owner. Let's face it, it is a kneejerk law written to a apease voters. How do you feel about gypsy moth and emerald ash borer laws? damn, I didn't even know that moths' and borer's had legislative branches... how many laws have they passed?? mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
#12
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"mac davis" wrote in message ... On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 19:20:23 -0400, "George" george@least wrote: How do you feel about gypsy moth and emerald ash borer laws? damn, I didn't even know that moths' and borer's had legislative branches... how many laws have they passed?? We have lived with the first for years, though the second is a relatively new problem. Outright ban now on moving ash from infected areas. Of course, like environmental law, they're really only enforced on large-scale operations. Periodically the DEQ will inspect firewood haulers of the individual type, just as they check and demand draining of your boat after pulling it from a zebra-mussel infested area. Don't want them in inland lakes and streams any faster than they can walk by themselves. Second-guessing legalism and police-bashing aside, it's aimed and will likely only be enforced against the guy hauling a trailer. Don't know that it would ever become a primary enforcement item. |
#13
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"George" george@least wrote in message ... "mac davis" wrote in message ... On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 19:20:23 -0400, "George" george@least wrote: How do you feel about gypsy moth and emerald ash borer laws? damn, I didn't even know that moths' and borer's had legislative branches... how many laws have they passed?? We have lived with the first for years, though the second is a relatively new problem. Outright ban now on moving ash from infected areas. Of course, like environmental law, they're really only enforced on large-scale operations. Periodically the DEQ will inspect firewood haulers of the individual type, just as they check and demand draining of your boat after pulling it from a zebra-mussel infested area. Don't want them in inland lakes and streams any faster than they can walk by themselves. Second-guessing legalism and police-bashing aside, it's aimed and will likely only be enforced against the guy hauling a trailer. Don't know that it would ever become a primary enforcement item. ==== What bothers me about this is the almost stealth-like passage of the legislation. Also, its shotgun application to all people who deal with wood either for personal firewood gathering, for turning purposes or even for carving (lots of cedar used for that in the chainsaw carving genre). Western Washington, where I live, lots of people use wood stoves and there is a cottage industry of chainsaw carving. I used to haul ten cords of wood that was sold off the University of Washington's demonstration forest per year. They issued sale receipts, but now, it appears that I would have to have a Sheriff's blessing on each load that I trucked out. It would take about 20 truckloads. I didn't use a trailer. Random enforcement is like traffic stops for a taillight out, but they ask to search your vehicle anyway. What is it about the politicians that they persist in trying to make criminals out of all of us. As stated above, I think the new law is a knee-jerk response to a few occasions and perhaps some influential ox was gored. I will be speaking with my State Senator about this. Leif |
#14
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Well Great. Another extremely critical problem for our already overburdened
law enforcement officers to worry about. |
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On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 01:25:32 -0700, Owen Lowe
wrote: The measure requires a permit for transporting "specialty wood," which includes logs of less than 8 feet, free of knots, which can be turned into musical instruments or ornamental boxes. Thank you "The Nanny State." Helmet laws, seatbelt laws, smoking laws, wood laws...how about they just enforce the ones they already have, shoot rustlers and let natural selection have half a chance. -- Chuck *#:^) chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply. September 11, 2001 - Never Forget ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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"Chuck" wrote in message ... On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 01:25:32 -0700, Owen Lowe wrote: The measure requires a permit for transporting "specialty wood," which includes logs of less than 8 feet, free of knots, which can be turned into musical instruments or ornamental boxes. Thank you "The Nanny State." Helmet laws, seatbelt laws, smoking laws, wood laws...how about they just enforce the ones they already have, shoot rustlers and let natural selection have half a chance. =======Here's the site where the law is set forth. I can't understand how this ever got through the legislature in such a form. I think the EU Constitution writers are moonlighting for the WA State Legislature. http://search.leg.wa.gov/pub/textsea...=605003108&p=1 Leif |
#17
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It is Washington house bill 1406S and requires a permit for transporting
specialized forest products. http://search.leg.wa.gov/pub/textsea...=606182744&p=1 Specialized forest products are defined as Christmas trees, native ornamental trees and shrubs, cut or picked evergreen foliage, cedar products, cedar salvage, processed cedar products, specialty wood, wild edible mushrooms, and Cascara bark. The law also includes specialty wood which includes western red cedar, Englemann spruce, Sitka spruce, big leaf maple, or western red alder. For specialty wood the log must meet specific requirements. There are limits to the amount of specialized forest products a person can have without a permit (I.e. you can transport 5 Christmas trees without a permit). The important part is that the law only affects the initial transporter of the wood. The law provides a means for tracing the sale of specific forest products back to the person transporting them out of the forest. If what you are transporting is below the limits set by the law, or if you are not selling the wood, than the law does not have much of an effect. I don't think that this law will bother us turners to a large degree. "Owen Lowe" wrote in message news The following newspaper article was circulated around our chapter meeting the other night. Since we're close to WA as well as have several members from southern Washington it was of importance to the membership. Anyone heard any more about this new law to take effect on July 1? |
#18
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In article r87pe.10615$ld3.3329@trnddc04,
"Henry" wrote: There are limits to the amount of specialized forest products a person can have without a permit (I.e. you can transport 5 Christmas trees without a permit). The important part is that the law only affects the initial transporter of the wood. The law provides a means for tracing the sale of specific forest products back to the person transporting them out of the forest. If what you are transporting is below the limits set by the law, or if you are not selling the wood, than the law does not have much of an effect. I don't think that this law will bother us turners to a large degree. Bill #1406, 2005: http://search.leg.wa.gov/pub/textsearch/ViewRoot.asp? Action=Html&Item=0&X=604221107&p=1 I didn't see any upper limits to the quantity or size or any stipulation about selling or not. The two parts that concerned me a (19) "Specialty wood" means wood that is: (a) In logs less than eight feet in length, chunks, slabs, stumps, or burls; and (b) One or more of the following: (i) Of the species western red cedar, Englemann spruce, Sitka spruce, big leaf maple, or western red alder; (ii) Without knots in a portion of the surface area at least twenty-one inches long and seven and a quarter inches wide when measured from the outer surface toward the center; or (iii) Suitable for the purposes of making musical instruments or ornamental boxes. Realize that (a) says "logs _less_ than 8' in length" and (b) says "One _or_ more..." It doesn't matter the size _if_ the wood is "suitable for purposes of making... ornamental boxes". It doesn't mean that as long as you don't make an ornamental box it's OK, it says if it's _suitable_ for making musical instruments or ornamental boxes. Who is to determine suitability? Sec. 4 RCW 76.48.070 and 1995 c 366 s 6 are each amended to read as follows: (2) It is unlawful for any person either (a) to possess, (b) to transport, or (c) to possess and transport within the state of Washington any cedar products ((or)), cedar salvage, or specialty wood without having in his or her possession a specialized forest products permit or a true copy thereof evidencing his or her title to or authority to have possession of the materials being so possessed or transported. The specialized forest products permit or true copy are valid to possess, transport, or possess and transport the cedar products, cedar salvage, or specialty wood from the harvest site to the first cedar or specialty wood processor or buyer. For purposes of this subsection, a true copy requires the actual signatures of both the permittee and the permittor for the execution of a true copy. You'll notice (2) states possession, transportation, and possession and transportation - mentions nothing about any act or intent to sell. I've read the bill a few times but not being a legal eagle some of the whereas's and heretofor's go beyond how much effort I desire to put into figuring it all out. Also, I'm an Oregonian so at the present this wouldn't affect me - I only offered it up for our Washington residents and others who might be interested. If you found some size, quantity or use limitations in the bill that might alleviate my concerns for woodturners then please post a folllow up. |
#19
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Owen Lowe wrote:
If you found some size, quantity or use limitations in the bill that might alleviate my concerns for woodturners then please post a folllow up. And if anyone needs some Big Leaf Maple, let me know and I'll give you some starters. It's practically a weed around here. Sheesh! |
#20
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In article oMlpe.14489$_w.7459@trnddc01,
Lobby Dosser wrote: And if anyone needs some Big Leaf Maple, let me know and I'll give you some starters. It's practically a weed around here. Sheesh! Yes Lobby I agree - AAMOF, my daughter and I started both an Oregon White Oak and a Big Leaf Maple early this spring from seeds that had sprouted in our yard - both now in a large pot in our kitchen window. Wow, the Maple is easily 2 or 3 times taller than the oak - now to just start nicking the little sucker to create some burls... Either that or attempt to banzai it - which seriously has crossed my mind. |
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Owen Lowe wrote:
In article oMlpe.14489$_w.7459@trnddc01, Lobby Dosser wrote: And if anyone needs some Big Leaf Maple, let me know and I'll give you some starters. It's practically a weed around here. Sheesh! Yes Lobby I agree - AAMOF, my daughter and I started both an Oregon White Oak and a Big Leaf Maple early this spring from seeds that had sprouted in our yard - both now in a large pot in our kitchen window. Wow, the Maple is easily 2 or 3 times taller than the oak - now to just start nicking the little sucker to create some burls... Either that or attempt to banzai it - which seriously has crossed my mind. I've got a volunteer in the front yard. It's about 5 years old now and the neighbor is still begging me to cut it down. I kinda like it, but I pull up all its offspring. |
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Henry wrote:
It is Washington house bill 1406S and requires a permit for transporting specialized forest products. http://search.leg.wa.gov/pub/textsea...=606182744&p=1 Specialized forest products are defined as Christmas trees, native ornamental trees and shrubs, cut or picked evergreen foliage, Now wait a minute--if I'm out four-wheeling and get a cedar twig caught in the body work I'm violating this law? These guys are _nuts_. snip -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#23
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"J. Clarke" wrote in message ... Henry wrote: It is Washington house bill 1406S and requires a permit for transporting specialized forest products. http://search.leg.wa.gov/pub/textsea...=606182744&p=1 Specialized forest products are defined as Christmas trees, native ornamental trees and shrubs, cut or picked evergreen foliage, Now wait a minute--if I'm out four-wheeling and get a cedar twig caught in the body work I'm violating this law? These guys are _nuts_. ==== It's ok as long as you keep it under five pounds of cedar twigs. Doesn't mean they can't stop you and weigh them and search your rig, (Probable cause, don't ya know -- If he's got one twig of cedar he must have more secreted in the vehicle!) They'll probably have to seize your rig and impound it while a more thorough search is made. Leif |
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"Leif Thorvaldson" wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message ... Henry wrote: It is Washington house bill 1406S and requires a permit for transporting specialized forest products. http://search.leg.wa.gov/pub/textsea...ion=Html&Item= 2&X=606182744&p=1 Specialized forest products are defined as Christmas trees, native ornamental trees and shrubs, cut or picked evergreen foliage, Now wait a minute--if I'm out four-wheeling and get a cedar twig caught in the body work I'm violating this law? These guys are _nuts_. ==== It's ok as long as you keep it under five pounds of cedar twigs. Doesn't mean they can't stop you and weigh them and search your rig, (Probable cause, don't ya know -- If he's got one twig of cedar he must have more secreted in the vehicle!) They'll probably have to seize your rig and impound it while a more thorough search is made. Leif Then they'll find the single marijuana seed and he'll go to a *Federal* Pen for 20 to Life!! |
#25
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Rank amateur woodturner, lurking here to learn anything about
woodturning, never posted until now...... I'm old enough to have become cynical about anything, any level of any Govt. imposes on honest people. I do believe the mental level of bearucrats & crooks are about equal, perhaps a little higher on the crooked side. I was stopped a year ago by a small town cop for him to determine the intent of hauling 10 bags of straight nitrogen in my pickup. The only knowledge he possessed about nitrogen was that he'd learned in a 2 week cop training school was that it could be used in making an explosive device. Perhaps your protectors out there are hopefully getting some training on wood species identification. Sometimes a good idea gets muddled with all the ink it takes to say something simple. And it is easier to hassle the honest than work at prosecuting to crooks. Thank you for letting me vent. |
#26
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"Scott Altman" wrote in message ... I was stopped a year ago by a small town cop for him to determine the intent of hauling 10 bags of straight nitrogen in my pickup. The only knowledge he possessed about nitrogen was that he'd learned in a 2 week cop training school was that it could be used in making an explosive device. Perhaps your protectors out there are hopefully getting some training on wood species identification. Folks in OK City probably feel a bit different about it than you do. Citizens elect representatives, representatives make the laws. Enforcement has to give their best guess on what the public wants at the moment. Lots of laws, rules and ordinances never get enforced, but get stopped with a radar detector, hops on your breath, or an attitude, and you'd best be prepared for some creative writing.... |
#27
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"George" wrote in message ... "Scott Altman" wrote in message ... I was stopped a year ago by a small town cop for him to determine the intent of hauling 10 bags of straight nitrogen in my pickup. The only knowledge he possessed about nitrogen was that he'd learned in a 2 week cop training school was that it could be used in making an explosive device. Perhaps your protectors out there are hopefully getting some training on wood species identification. Folks in OK City probably feel a bit different about it than you do. Citizens elect representatives, representatives make the laws. Enforcement has to give their best guess on what the public wants at the moment. Lots of laws, rules and ordinances never get enforced, but get stopped with a radar detector, hops on your breath, or an attitude, and you'd best be prepared for some creative writing.... Not mention where can you get "bags" of nitrogen? Are you referring to nitrogen based fertilizer? Leif |
#28
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"George" wrote in :
snip Folks in OK City probably feel a bit different about it than you do. Citizens elect representatives, representatives make the laws. Enforcement has to give their best guess on what the public wants at the moment. Lots of laws, rules and ordinances never get enforced, but get stopped with a radar detector, hops on your breath, or an attitude, and you'd best be prepared for some creative writing.... There are exceptions to every generalization, but I have been fortunate to experience, for the most part, people in law enforcement and other public service agencies are interested in the public good. We citizens and inhabitants often make it difficult for them to balance the sometimes conflicting goals we ask them to meet. Our goals change over time. We protect sometimes conflicting interest in the law. For this reason we have courts, to decide rationality and resolve conflict. We can live without all of these things, but not in a well organized society. Just check your newspapers for almost any week of any of the last decades for places trying to reorganize themselves. Thank whatever deity you belive in for the places and societies in which most of us reside and create our fancy bits. We will figure out how to legally acquire and transport turning materials, firewood and instrument grade lumber, because it is in the best interests of society to work this out. Other things may get done *first*, however. ;-) Patriarch, thinking that Oregon Bigleaf Maple may be the ticket for now... |
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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:48:40 -0500, (Scott Altman)
wrote: Sometimes a good idea gets muddled with all the ink it takes to say something simple. And it is easier to hassle the honest than work at prosecuting to crooks. Hmmm, lemme see...."Thou shalt not steal." Would that work? Nope, too controversial. -- Chuck *#:^) chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply. September 11, 2001 - Never Forget ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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Chuck wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:48:40 -0500, (Scott Altman) wrote: Sometimes a good idea gets muddled with all the ink it takes to say something simple. And it is easier to hassle the honest than work at prosecuting to crooks. Hmmm, lemme see...."Thou shalt not steal." Would that work? Nope, too controversial. Run that past a contracts lawyer and see how he words it to close all the loopholes. -- Chuck *#:^) chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply. September 11, 2001 - Never Forget ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
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