Hi folks,

I recently bought a bargain priced one bedroom flat. The building appears
to have been converted from a 4-storey house into 4 separate flats in the
mid-80s. Unfortunately during the conversion it would appear that several
shortcuts were taken.

I have been doing little bits n pieces of DIY around the place, in the
majority I have been decorating, but I have also replaced a couple of the
pendant lights. It was when I noticed the rubber insulation around the
cables and the lack of an Earth wire I got worried.

Does anyone know how old my wiring is likely to be? What is the legal
position on earth wires in lighting circuits?

BTW, I checked the power circuits and they seem to have been rewired
recently (in the last 20 years at any rate).

--
Fishter
unhook to email me | http://www.fishter.org.uk/
I'll bet your hobby is Taxidermy

Hi Doctor D.
In you wrote:

Does anyone know how old my wiring is likely to be? What is the legal
position on earth wires in lighting circuits?

I suspect your wiring dates from the early 1960's. AFAIK rubber insulation
was coming to an end in the 60's.
No earth on the lighting circuits was normal for this period. It is now
mandatory.
It needs replacing urgently I suspect.

I was afraid of that. Any ideas on the cost to rewire 5 light fittings, 7
double sockets, a cooker and a 3kW shower?

Another problem is access. I expect that to do the ceiling lights I would
need to gain access underneath my upstairs neighbours floor. That isn't
likely to come easily.... :-(

--
Fishter
unhook to email me | http://www.fishter.org.uk/
How about never? Is never good for you?

Fishter wrote:

Hi Doctor D.
In you wrote:


Does anyone know how old my wiring is likely to be? What is the legal
position on earth wires in lighting circuits?


I suspect your wiring dates from the early 1960's. AFAIK rubber insulation
was coming to an end in the 60's.
No earth on the lighting circuits was normal for this period. It is now
mandatory.
It needs replacing urgently I suspect.


I was afraid of that. Any ideas on the cost to rewire 5 light fittings, 7
double sockets, a cooker and a 3kW shower?

Another problem is access. I expect that to do the ceiling lights I would
need to gain access underneath my upstairs neighbours floor. That isn't
likely to come easily.... :-(


Sounds like the freeholder's responsibility to me. The funding would
probably come from whatever maintenance fund you and the other flats
pay into.

--
jc

Hi Jeremy Collins
In you wrote:

I was afraid of that. Any ideas on the cost to rewire 5 light fittings, 7
double sockets, a cooker and a 3kW shower?

Another problem is access. I expect that to do the ceiling lights I would
need to gain access underneath my upstairs neighbours floor. That isn't
likely to come easily.... :-(
Sounds like the freeholder's responsibility to me. The funding would
probably come from whatever maintenance fund you and the other flats
pay into.

Given my recent experience of writing 4 times in as many months, before
getting a response, I don't think this will be a very productive route.
Worth a go I suppose!

--
Fishter
unhook to email me | http://www.fishter.org.uk/
Dangling participle!

Jeremy Collins wrote:
Fishter wrote:

Hi Doctor D.
In you wrote:


Does anyone know how old my wiring is likely to be? What is the
legal position on earth wires in lighting circuits?


I suspect your wiring dates from the early 1960's. AFAIK rubber
insulation was coming to an end in the 60's.
No earth on the lighting circuits was normal for this period. It is
now mandatory.
It needs replacing urgently I suspect.


I was afraid of that. Any ideas on the cost to rewire 5 light
fittings, 7 double sockets, a cooker and a 3kW shower?

Another problem is access. I expect that to do the ceiling lights I
would need to gain access underneath my upstairs neighbours floor.
That isn't likely to come easily.... :-(


Sounds like the freeholder's responsibility to me. The funding would
probably come from whatever maintenance fund you and the other flats
pay into.

Surely the re-wiring for a particular flat should be paid for by that
resident?
Suppose the boiler needed replacing? the sinking fund wouldn't pay for that.
Many of these conversions have no sinking fund anyway.
Regarding access, there probably is a clause in the lease allowing you
access for such services.

In article ,
Paul Hewish wrote:
You may have cut some holes in your ceiling to aid drawing
the cables but you could combine these holes with downlights
which may need holes anyway.

Please not in a conversion flat unless you want to compromise
fire safety and sound insulation.

Depending on what the existing ceilings are like one could
consider fixing battens below the existing ceiling and
replasterboarding after installing the necessary wiring. This
would improve both the above.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Hi BillR
In you wrote:

Sounds like the freeholder's responsibility to me. The funding would
probably come from whatever maintenance fund you and the other flats
pay into.

Surely the re-wiring for a particular flat should be paid for by that
resident?

I think it is my responsibility. The only things that the freeholder is
responsible for is the communal areas and the fabric of the building.

Suppose the boiler needed replacing? the sinking fund wouldn't pay for that.
Many of these conversions have no sinking fund anyway.

Apparently there is some kind of a fund, but I have little doubt that it is
drained dry with the exorbitant management fees and insurance.

Regarding access, there probably is a clause in the lease allowing you
access for such services.

I'm not too worried about my legal rights to access, just the upheaval it
may cause my neighbour.

--
Fishter
unhook to email me | http://www.fishter.org.uk/
Do you stretch out on the floor while you fill out a job application?

BillR wrote:


Surely the re-wiring for a particular flat should be paid for by that
resident?
Suppose the boiler needed replacing? the sinking fund wouldn't pay for that.
Many of these conversions have no sinking fund anyway.

You may very well be right - but what if the wiring in the whole
freehold is unsound / unsafe?

--
jc

Hi Tony
An interesting observation, and generally correct standard to follow.
However, I got the impression from Fishter's original posting, that his may
be an 'old' conversion where the installation of acoustic treatment would
have been unusual. If there are any sound insulation measures in place they
are likely to be of the 'acoustic' quilt variety - laid on the floor above
and then a 'floating' floor (generally ply or chipboard) laid on top of the
quilt and not being allowed to touch any part of the building structure (to
reduce impact sound). The building regs of the time required this type of
insulation above bedrooms and living rooms only, kitchens, bathrooms,
hallways, etc. escaped the requirements. It was very unusual for acoustic
granuals to be used in the ceiling voids at that time (to reduce air
transmitted sound).

The Fire Safety regs of that time were affected be the thickness of any
existing ceiling mass, so a lath & plaster ceiling with, say 1" (it was
imperial measure in those days!) of thickness passed the standard (the Local
Authority Surveyer would visit and poke holes in opposite corners of a
room's ceiling and measure the thickness). If it didn't meet the standard
you had a choice: fit a suspended ceiling of the appropriate standard, or
fix plasterboard directly to the original ceiling to make-up the acceptable
thickness; this was always the preferred method when decorative mouldings,
etc. wanted to be retained. We did dozens of conversions like this in the
'old' GLC area (London).

There are currently downlights on the market specifically designed for
maintaining fire safety requirements in situations like those above.
Suppliers details are available.

Regards

Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Bryer"
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 7:50 PM
Subject: Rewiring of 1 bed flat


In article ,
Paul Hewish wrote:
You may have cut some holes in your ceiling to aid drawing
the cables but you could combine these holes with downlights
which may need holes anyway.

Please not in a conversion flat unless you want to compromise
fire safety and sound insulation.

Depending on what the existing ceilings are like one could
consider fixing battens below the existing ceiling and
replasterboarding after installing the necessary wiring. This
would improve both the above.

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Paul Hewish wrote:
You may have cut some holes in your ceiling to aid drawing
the cables but you could combine these holes with downlights
which may need holes anyway.

Please not in a conversion flat unless you want to compromise
fire safety and sound insulation.

Depending on what the existing ceilings are like one could
consider fixing battens below the existing ceiling and
replasterboarding after installing the necessary wiring. This
would improve both the above.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Fishter wrote in message ...
Hi folks,

I recently bought a bargain priced one bedroom flat. The building appears
to have been converted from a 4-storey house into 4 separate flats in the
mid-80s. Unfortunately during the conversion it would appear that several
shortcuts were taken.

I have been doing little bits n pieces of DIY around the place, in the
majority I have been decorating, but I have also replaced a couple of the
pendant lights. It was when I noticed the rubber insulation around the
cables and the lack of an Earth wire I got worried.

Does anyone know how old my wiring is likely to be? What is the legal
position on earth wires in lighting circuits?

BTW, I checked the power circuits and they seem to have been rewired
recently (in the last 20 years at any rate).

Hi.

My first question would be what condition is the rubber in? If its
shot, falling apart, it needs doing asap. OTOH?


Regards, NT

Does anyone know how old my wiring is likely to be? What is the
legal position on earth wires in lighting circuits?

The lack of earth isn't much of an issue, especially if you avoid metal
fixtures. The rubber issue is much more serious. It has an expected 25 year
life and hasn't been installed for 40 years. Obviously, it lasts better in
some cases and worse in others, but it should need replacing by now. How
urgent it is might be determined by an insulation resistance test, although
even if it passes, it should really be replaced. You could always install
wall lighting in every room. ;-)

Christian.