Hi all. My electric shower has recently broken (water squirts out of the
unit and the heater cuts out) and I have been advised that I need a
replacement (the shower was old and is obsolete now, I think i.e. Triton
T60). However, I read on the Plumbworld website that electric showers
cannot be run off of combination boilers. Then, on contacting various
plumbers, I have been told that this is wrong i.e. that if I had an electric
installed without problems previously, then I must be able to have one
again. However, the combination boiler I now have was installed just prior
to the shower breaking - which has added to my concern that Plumbworld may
indeed be correct in stating that electric showers cannot run with
combi-boilers.
Can someone please clarify for me? I don't want to buy a shower only to
find that it is unsuitable for my system.
John.

"JR." wrote in message
...
Hi all. My electric shower has recently broken (water squirts out of the
unit and the heater cuts out) and I have been advised that I need a
replacement (the shower was old and is obsolete now, I think i.e. Triton
T60). However, I read on the Plumbworld website that electric showers
cannot be run off of combination boilers. Then, on contacting various
plumbers, I have been told that this is wrong i.e. that if I had an
electric
installed without problems previously, then I must be able to have one
again. However, the combination boiler I now have was installed just
prior
to the shower breaking - which has added to my concern that Plumbworld may
indeed be correct in stating that electric showers cannot run with
combi-boilers.
Can someone please clarify for me? I don't want to buy a shower only to
find that it is unsuitable for my system.
John.



The Triton T60 is an instantaneous electric shower that runs off the cold
water main. It has no connection with the boiler in the house, whatever that
is, so you can replace it at will**. There is often confusion because of
poor terminology. A "power shower" normally refers to something that is
electrically pumped, but does not heat the water - it gets its hot water
from the domestic hot water system and would not be suitable for use on a
combi boiler system. An "instantaneous electric shower" (like the Triton
T60) just heats water taken at high pressure from the cold water main. These
are generally crap BUT provide a good backup shower in case of failure of
the primary system.

** "Part P regulations will not allow you to change the shower, as the work
would be classed as being in a bathroom, without having it inspected and
certified or done by a recognized person". You should take care if you are
tempted to up the power rating, as it is quite possible the existing
electrical supply arrangements would be inadequate at the higher rating.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

However, I read on the Plumbworld website that electric showers cannot
be run off of combination boilers.

It is power showers that can't be run off combination boilers, not electric
showers. Power showers don't heat the water, they pump low pressure water
from tanks to provide a good shower.

A combination boiler is generally fitted to the mains, which is not allowed
to be pumped. However, the mains is usually high pressure, so doesn't need
pumping.

Then, on contacting various plumbers, I have been told that this is wrong
i.e. that if I had an electric installed without problems previously, then
I must be able to have one again.

This is probably the case.

Can someone please clarify for me? I don't want to buy a shower only to
find that it is unsuitable for my system.

Personally, I think electric showers are the spawn of satan and would not be
looking to replace it. Now that you have a new combination boiler, dump the
horrible piece of cr*p and install a pressure balanced thermostatic mixer
valve shower run off the cold and hot mains water. Ensure that the valve
claims combi compatibility.

It will provide double or even triple the flow rate whilst actually costing
less to run and looking damn fine to boot, particularly if you manage to
shoe horn a flush mounted model in. Nothing looks worse than an electric
shower.

Christian.

In message , JR.
writes
Hi all. My electric shower has recently broken (water squirts out of the
unit and the heater cuts out) and I have been advised that I need a
replacement (the shower was old and is obsolete now, I think i.e. Triton
T60). However, I read on the Plumbworld website that electric showers
cannot be run off of combination boilers. Then, on contacting various
plumbers, I have been told that this is wrong i.e. that if I had an electric
installed without problems previously, then I must be able to have one
again.

Electric showers just run of the cold water supply they do not have hot
supply. The type of HW system should therefore not make a jot of
difference.


--
Chris French, Leeds

In article , Jr. wrote:
My electric shower has recently broken (water squirts out of the
unit and the heater cuts out) and I have been advised that I need
a replacement (the shower was old and is obsolete now, I think
i.e. Triton T60).

Triton showers website is http://www.tritonshowers.co.uk

From the FAQ "If water is leaking from a clear plastic tube at the
bottom of the unit, then the Pressure Relief Device (PRD) has been
activated. A replacement can be ordered from the Triton Spares
department (024 76372222)."

There are a number of T60 variants some of which still have parts
available.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article ,
says...

Personally, I think electric showers are the spawn of satan and would not be
looking to replace it. Now that you have a new combination boiler, dump the
horrible piece of cr*p and install a pressure balanced thermostatic mixer
valve shower run off the cold and hot mains water. Ensure that the valve
claims combi compatibility.

Christian.

Well maybe - BUT

I have a combi system and a previously installed electric shower.

A recent pressure valve leak in the combi put us without hot water or
heating for 5 days until the engineer could call to fix.

The electric shower was then invaluable as a source of hot water.

--
Ziggur

"S'ils te mordent, mords-les"

A recent pressure valve leak in the combi put us without hot water or
heating for 5 days until the engineer could call to fix.

The electric shower was then invaluable as a source of hot water.

There's always the kettle.

I'd rather have a decent shower the whole year round, minus a couple of
days, than have to shower under a pathetic electric, even assuming that the
electrical shower will be any more reliable than the combi boiler in the
first place.

Christian.

Tony Bryer wrote:
In article , Jr. wrote:
My electric shower has recently broken (water squirts out of the
unit and the heater cuts out) and I have been advised that I need
a replacement (the shower was old and is obsolete now, I think
i.e. Triton T60).

Triton showers website is http://www.tritonshowers.co.uk

From the FAQ "If water is leaking from a clear plastic tube at the
bottom of the unit, then the Pressure Relief Device (PRD) has been
activated. A replacement can be ordered from the Triton Spares
department (024 76372222)."

There are a number of T60 variants some of which still have parts
available.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Nowt to do with electric showers, but my Triton thermostatic shower
mixer recently broke its plasic spindle, squirting water all over the
place until I found the isolating valve.

Could Triton supply this tiny part? Could they Buxton! Had to buy a
complete new mixer unit from them. Cost? =A3117!

Thanks for the responses but I'm still confused. I've enough intelligence
to wonder about stuff but not enough knowledge (of plumbing) to supply the
answers! Is it not possible for the mains cold water supply to be connected
first to the combi-boiler and _then_ to an electric shower i.e. the boiler
heats up the water and then the electric shower tries to heat it _again_
causing the shower to shut off/break down? Surely the layout of the current
piping dictates whether the water comes first to the shower or the boiler,
and yet I can well imagine a plumber laughing at my way of thinking and
correct me. (Bob) An electric shower is connected to the cold water mains,
and so is my boiler. Thus, surely they are connected to one another, no?

Also, the shower website states that one's water supply system must be known
before buying a shower e.g. is it 'mains pressurised', 'mains cold water',
'gravity fed', and also what the 'head distance' is. I wrote to my landlord
for this info and have been told that I have [quote] 'mains pressure fed
cold water supply feeding my kitchen and, possibly, wash hand basin and
gravity fed to the rest of the property. The head distance is, however,
unknown.'

On electric showers being 'spawn of Satan' , this may be true but all I
want is economy to buy and run, particularly the latter, not the last word
in showering experiences. Low energy use is my highest priority.

Thanks again guys,
John.

Thanks. I've been to the Triton website and its replacement guide doesn't
have the T60 on it! I wrote to them twice for further help and they ignored
me so I won't be buying Triton now. Maybe a spare part could be found but
I'm not particularly keen to stay with such an old model anyway.

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Jr. wrote:
My electric shower has recently broken (water squirts out of the
unit and the heater cuts out) and I have been advised that I need
a replacement (the shower was old and is obsolete now, I think
i.e. Triton T60).

Triton showers website is http://www.tritonshowers.co.uk

From the FAQ "If water is leaking from a clear plastic tube at the
bottom of the unit, then the Pressure Relief Device (PRD) has been
activated. A replacement can be ordered from the Triton Spares
department (024 76372222)."

There are a number of T60 variants some of which still have parts
available.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Bob Mannix wrote:
** "Part P regulations will not allow you to change the shower, as the work
would be classed as being in a bathroom, without having it inspected and
certified or done by a recognized person".

Guidance from the IEE (Wiring Matters, received today) says that:

Q. If I replace an existing electric shower with a new electric shower
connected to an existing shower circuit is this notifiable work?
A. No, provided the shower is a like for like replacement

Owain

JR. wrote:
Thanks for the responses but I'm still confused. I've enough intelligence
to wonder about stuff but not enough knowledge (of plumbing) to supply the
answers! Is it not possible for the mains cold water supply to be connected
first to the combi-boiler and _then_ to an electric shower i.e. the boiler
heats up the water and then the electric shower tries to heat it _again_
causing the shower to shut off/break down?

It's possible but wrong (ie shower would shut off as you say). I've
lived in a flat where that happened. We had a choice of hot water /or/
mediocre shower :-(

On electric showers being 'spawn of Satan' , this may be true but all I
want is economy to buy and run, particularly the latter, not the last word
in showering experiences. Low energy use is my highest priority.

If you have a combi boiler you probably have mains pressure hot and cold
water. You might also have cold water from a tank to washbasins etc. You
probably want a mains pressure thermostatic shower, plumbed to the
mains pressure cold water and to mains pressure hot water (combi
output). On the assumption that you have reasonable mains pressure and
flow, that will give you a reasonably good shower (three-four times
better than an instant electric one) and be economical to run (gas is a
lot cheaper than electricity).

Owain

JR. wrote:

Thanks for the responses but I'm still confused. I've enough intelligence
to wonder about stuff but not enough knowledge (of plumbing) to supply the
answers! Is it not possible for the mains cold water supply to be connected
first to the combi-boiler and _then_ to an electric shower i.e. the boiler
heats up the water and then the electric shower tries to heat it _again_
causing the shower to shut off/break down? Surely the layout of the current

That would be a pretty unusual way of plumbing it...

The cold mains feed will should indeed be connevted to both - but in
parallel not series:

Cold Main _______ Hot water to rest of house
============| Combi |=============================
# | |
# |_______|
# ________
#=====| Shower | Hot water to shower head
| |============================
|________|


piping dictates whether the water comes first to the shower or the boiler,
and yet I can well imagine a plumber laughing at my way of thinking and
correct me. (Bob) An electric shower is connected to the cold water mains,
and so is my boiler. Thus, surely they are connected to one another, no?

Yes - but as above - the hot water output from the boiuler does not feed
the shower - even though the shower and the boiler share a cold water input.

Also, the shower website states that one's water supply system must be known
before buying a shower e.g. is it 'mains pressurised', 'mains cold water',
'gravity fed', and also what the 'head distance' is. I wrote to my landlord
for this info and have been told that I have [quote] 'mains pressure fed
cold water supply feeding my kitchen and, possibly, wash hand basin and
gravity fed to the rest of the property. The head distance is, however,
unknown.'

Not really that important if your shower is a mains pressure one...

On electric showers being 'spawn of Satan' , this may be true but all I
want is economy to buy and run, particularly the latter, not the last word
in showering experiences. Low energy use is my highest priority.

Given that energy from gas will be a quarter of the cost of that from
electricity, you could switch to a mixer shower run from your combi, get
a shower twice as good and pay half as much. A cheap thermostatic mixer
shower will cost no more than a replacement electric one. However you
will need to plumb hot water to the shower as well (since it probably
only has cold mains at the moment), and you will lose the backup option
of having an alternative water heating source should the boiler go titsup.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:21:09 GMT, "JR." wrote:

Thanks for the responses but I'm still confused. I've enough intelligence
to wonder about stuff but not enough knowledge (of plumbing) to supply the
answers! Is it not possible for the mains cold water supply to be connected
first to the combi-boiler and _then_ to an electric shower i.e. the boiler
heats up the water and then the electric shower tries to heat it _again_
causing the shower to shut off/break down? Surely the layout of the current
piping dictates whether the water comes first to the shower or the boiler,
and yet I can well imagine a plumber laughing at my way of thinking and
correct me. (Bob) An electric shower is connected to the cold water mains,
and so is my boiler. Thus, surely they are connected to one another, no?

Also, the shower website states that one's water supply system must be known
before buying a shower e.g. is it 'mains pressurised', 'mains cold water',
'gravity fed', and also what the 'head distance' is. I wrote to my landlord
for this info and have been told that I have [quote] 'mains pressure fed
cold water supply feeding my kitchen and, possibly, wash hand basin and
gravity fed to the rest of the property. The head distance is, however,
unknown.'

On electric showers being 'spawn of Satan' , this may be true but all I
want is economy to buy and run, particularly the latter, not the last word
in showering experiences. Low energy use is my highest priority.

Thanks again guys,
John.

Hi,

If the combi does not fire and the shower's cold water INLET pipe
always stays cold when you are showering then it is probably connected
straight to the main water supply like it should be.

Best to call Triton for an answer to the problem though, you'd get a
reply much quicker.

cheers,
Pete.

"Owain" wrote in message
. ..
Bob Mannix wrote:
** "Part P regulations will not allow you to change the shower, as the
work
would be classed as being in a bathroom, without having it inspected and
certified or done by a recognized person".

Guidance from the IEE (Wiring Matters, received today) says that:

Q. If I replace an existing electric shower with a new electric shower
connected to an existing shower circuit is this notifiable work?
A. No, provided the shower is a like for like replacement

Owain


Hmmm, interesting.

Wonder if swapping a CU with a like-for-like replacement would be similarly
non-notifiable?

In which case, proving any non-compliance at sale time would be a complete
non-starter.



--
Richard Sampson

mail me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"JR." wrote in message
...
Thanks for the responses but I'm still confused. I've enough intelligence
to wonder about stuff but not enough knowledge (of plumbing) to supply the
answers! Is it not possible for the mains cold water supply to be
connected
first to the combi-boiler and _then_ to an electric shower i.e. the boiler
heats up the water and then the electric shower tries to heat it _again_
causing the shower to shut off/break down?

Not unless someone has been very bad, as a combi boiler should not be used
with a shower in this manner.

Surely the layout of the current
piping dictates whether the water comes first to the shower or the boiler,
and yet I can well imagine a plumber laughing at my way of thinking and
correct me.

Ha, ha )) The mains water will *feed* the boiler and then the feed pipe
will travel on elsewhere feeding other things (like a kitchen tap, or your
shower). Thoe *output* from the boiler will only go to the hot taps
(ignoring heating).

Bob) An electric shower is connected to the cold water mains,
and so is my boiler. Thus, surely they are connected to one another, no?

Well, next door's shower (if they have a similar) is also connected to the
mains, as is the one ten doors down the road, but one wouldn't generally say
they were connected together! Literally they are, of course and usage of one
will affect another in terms of pressure, but that wasn't really the topic.


Also, the shower website states that one's water supply system must be
known
before buying a shower e.g. is it 'mains pressurised', 'mains cold water',
'gravity fed', and also what the 'head distance' is. I wrote to my
landlord
for this info and have been told that I have [quote] 'mains pressure fed
cold water supply feeding my kitchen and, possibly, wash hand basin and
gravity fed to the rest of the property. The head distance is, however,
unknown.'

Unless someone has done something wrong, the shower installer will have
taken another feed off this main to add "electric shower" to the list your
landlord gave.


On electric showers being 'spawn of Satan' , this may be true but all I
want is economy to buy and run, particularly the latter, not the last word
in showering experiences. Low energy use is my highest priority.

Well that's good! Electric showers (like the Triton T60) are, by universal
agreement, even on a ng, NOT the last word in showering experiences! They
are efficient, in that all the energy goes into the water you use (which
isn't much). A short shower under a Triton T60 would be an unpleasant but
cheap experience.

Although (decent) combi boiler systems can provide an adequate to good
showering experience, the last word can only be achieved with a big hot
water tank and a pump.

--
Bob Mannix

"RichardS" wrote in message
...

"Owain" wrote in message
. ..
Bob Mannix wrote:
** "Part P regulations will not allow you to change the shower, as the
work
would be classed as being in a bathroom, without having it inspected
and
certified or done by a recognized person".

Guidance from the IEE (Wiring Matters, received today) says that:

Q. If I replace an existing electric shower with a new electric shower
connected to an existing shower circuit is this notifiable work?
A. No, provided the shower is a like for like replacement

Owain


Hmmm, interesting.

Wonder if swapping a CU with a like-for-like replacement would be
similarly
non-notifiable?

In which case, proving any non-compliance at sale time would be a complete
non-starter.



Did you really expect anything but a total balls up from ODPM?
Lets hope this piece of garbage goes the same way as the poll tax when the
public FINALLY wake up to what has been foisted on them.

Owain wrote:

Guidance from the IEE (Wiring Matters, received today) says that:

Q. If I replace an existing electric shower with a new electric shower
connected to an existing shower circuit is this notifiable work?
A. No, provided the shower is a like for like replacement

I was surprised to see that too (my copy also arrived yesterday).
Trouble is that "like for like" will get stretched a bit. "The old
shower was 6.5 kW and this one's 10.5 kW, but they look similar and it's
still a Tr***n so it must be OK. What do you mean 4mm^2 cable might not
be quite enough, it was OK before... "

*****

Also of interest is the NAPIT advert on the back for their "just 8"
limited Part P scheme, aimed at people working on their own property or
doing jobs for friends and relations. This allows you to self-certify
up to eight notifications per year for a reduced membership fee (GBP 185
pa, from memory, plus 55 quid for the initial assessment). This still
seems expensive though, unless you can use up all eight goes. There
don't appear to be any details of it on their web site yet, but I do
intend to e-mail them for info.

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
Guidance from the IEE (Wiring Matters, received today) says that:
Q. If I replace an existing electric shower with a new electric shower
connected to an existing shower circuit is this notifiable work?
A. No, provided the shower is a like for like replacement
I was surprised to see that too (my copy also arrived yesterday).
Trouble is that "like for like" will get stretched a bit.

Exactly.

Also of interest is the NAPIT advert on the back for their "just 8"
limited Part P scheme, aimed at people working on their own property or
doing jobs for friends and relations. This allows you to self-certify
up to eight notifications per year for a reduced membership fee (GBP 185
pa, from memory, plus 55 quid for the initial assessment). This still
seems expensive though, unless you can use up all eight goes.

I wonder if there's a limit to how much work can go one one
'notification'. Would all the work have to be at the same address, for
example? Does the work have to be done by a named individual or could
eight householders join the scheme in partnership and put in one
notification for each household to cover a full rewiring over several years?

Of course, it will make a valuable contribution to safety :-)

Owain

In article ,
Andy Wade writes:

Also of interest is the NAPIT advert on the back for their "just 8"
limited Part P scheme, aimed at people working on their own property or
doing jobs for friends and relations. This allows you to self-certify
up to eight notifications per year for a reduced membership fee (GBP 185
pa, from memory, plus 55 quid for the initial assessment). This still
seems expensive though, unless you can use up all eight goes. There
don't appear to be any details of it on their web site yet, but I do
intend to e-mail them for info.

It would be interesting to know if you can point to some work you did
pre-Part P for the initial assessment. I would probably point to my
consumer unit replacement and outdoor socket provisioning I did a
couple of days after Christmas, specifically to beat the Part P deadline.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Owain wrote:

I wonder if there's a limit to how much work can go one one
'notification'. Would all the work have to be at the same address, for
example?

I'd guess it would cover anything that could be put on one electrical
installation certificate (or small works cert.) - definitely one client
at one address, surely?

Does the work have to be done by a named individual or could
eight householders join the scheme in partnership and put in one
notification for each household to cover a full rewiring over several
years?

Guessing again, it will will be for work done by the signed-up member.

Of course, it will make a valuable contribution to safety :-)

That's what we've been told, so it must be true.

--
Andy

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

It would be interesting to know if you can point to some work you did
pre-Part P for the initial assessment.

I'd hope so...

Also I wonder what the requirements with regard to test equipment (and
calibration thereof) will be. I do DIY calibration - sanity checks
really - using resistors checked on other instruments and comparing
three or more instruments against each other. I also have an old HP
meter calibrator which seems to provide pretty accurate voltages and
currents, but is not itself formally calibrated.

--
Andy

In article ,
Andy Wade writes:
Also I wonder what the requirements with regard to test equipment (and
calibration thereof) will be. I do DIY calibration - sanity checks
really - using resistors checked on other instruments and comparing
three or more instruments against each other. I also have an old HP
meter calibrator which seems to provide pretty accurate voltages and
currents, but is not itself formally calibrated.

Other than an RCD tester which I made myself, I've hired test equipment
when I've needed it, which is presumably a satisfactory answer as it
always comes with a calibration certificate.

Interestingly, the flue gas analyser I bought came with a calibration
certificate from the manufacturer (Kane), but it has no date on it.
The inference seems to be that it's valid for 2 years from the purchase
date.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:55:58 +0100, "RichardS"
wrote:

In which case, proving any non-compliance at sale time would be a complete
non-starter.

Proving non-compliance at sale time is going to be impossible anyway.
I just got a completion certificate for some building work, which
essentially says "there was lots of work done on this property in 2004/5
and it is all up to scratch".

As far as I can see, if I do anything else in the next year or so
(assuming I do it well, of course) then no-one will ever do the
detective work to find out exactly what the original building notice
covered.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

[...] calibration certificate [...]

In the meantime I've e-mailed NAPIT (last Thursday) asking for full
details of the just8 scheme, but have yet to receive any reply.

--
Andy