I need to replace a long length of internal lead pipe to my water tanks in
the loft (main water tank and central heating header). The house dates from
1902.

The supply into the house is lead (which I will replace when funds allow)
which is first fused onto copper (15mm) with the stop cock within the short
copper length and then reverts to lead when it travels up to the loft - sunk
into the plaster as originally installed. This is probably why no-one in the
past has replaced it. But its only a matter of time till a leak occurs in
this ancient lead piping.

What's to stop me replacing the lead section to the loft with the blue
plastic water pipe - which is cheap, flexible and easier to deal with than
copper. I saw a length of it in B&Q the other day which I think was 15mm
bore 25m length for £19.99. I also suspect that it behaves better if the
pipe freezes than copper - i.e.. not bursting.

Any views on this.

Regards, Roy

What's to stop me replacing the lead section to the loft with the blue
plastic water pipe - which is cheap, flexible and easier to deal with than
copper. I saw a length of it in B&Q the other day which I think was 15mm
bore 25m length for £19.99. I also suspect that it behaves better if the
pipe freezes than copper - i.e.. not bursting.

The blue stuff is probably MDPE (medium density polyethylene), which would
be an excellent replacement for the lead pipework between the stopcock and
the street.

If you want to replace inside the house, you should use different stuff. PEX
(cross linked polyethylene) is the stuff you want.

When you replace it, replace with 22mm, not 15mm. When replacing the line to
the street, use minimum 25mm MDPE, preferably more.

Christian.

Roy wrote:
I need to replace a long length of internal lead pipe to my water tanks in
the loft (main water tank and central heating header). The house dates from
1902.

The supply into the house is lead (which I will replace when funds allow)
which is first fused onto copper (15mm) with the stop cock within the short
copper length and then reverts to lead when it travels up to the loft - sunk
into the plaster as originally installed. This is probably why no-one in the
past has replaced it. But its only a matter of time till a leak occurs in
this ancient lead piping.

What's to stop me replacing the lead section to the loft with the blue
plastic water pipe - which is cheap, flexible and easier to deal with than
copper. I saw a length of it in B&Q the other day which I think was 15mm
bore 25m length for £19.99. I also suspect that it behaves better if the
pipe freezes than copper - i.e.. not bursting.

Any views on this.

Regards, Roy


Its not normal to use the blue stuff after the stopcock.
Anyway you don't really need this wide a bore up to the roof tank.
I'd recommend plastic pipe but the usual internal stuff. Hep2O is my
usual 1st choice; Jewsons have it handier lengths than the likes of B&Q
e.g. 6M lengths ( very useful) or a complete coil if you need that much.
I think I pay around £1/Metre there.
I find that often you can shove it through gaps or pull with string, so
there are no joins on the hidden bits.
BTW cat is useful for getting string under floorboards, but thats
another story.

Anyway you don't really need this wide a bore up to the roof tank.

15mm is hardly an excessive bore for the rising main. In any case, I
wouldn't use less than 22mm, simply because it makes upgrading to mains
pressure supply so much easier in the future, and even with a tank, it gives
greater effective capacity due to more rapid replenishment.

Christian.

"Roy" wrote in message
...
I need to replace a long length of internal lead pipe to my water tanks in
the loft (main water tank and central heating header). The house dates
from
1902.

The supply into the house is lead (which I will replace when funds allow)
which is first fused onto copper (15mm) with the stop cock within the
short
copper length and then reverts to lead when it travels up to the loft -
sunk
into the plaster as originally installed. This is probably why no-one in
the
past has replaced it. But its only a matter of time till a leak occurs in
this ancient lead piping.

What's to stop me replacing the lead section to the loft with the blue
plastic water pipe - which is cheap, flexible and easier to deal with than
copper. I saw a length of it in B&Q the other day which I think was 15mm
bore 25m length for £19.99. I also suspect that it behaves better if the
pipe freezes than copper - i.e.. not bursting.

Blue plastic is for external underground only and only short lengths as it
enmerges from the ground. There is an external version, but mainly used for
agricultural uses.

You can use 22mm hot and cold plastic pipe. Marley Equator and Osma Gold
are the better brands. Take 22mm right to the cold water storage tank, Fit
a 22mm "full-bore" stop cock.



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Christian McArdle wrote:

If you want to replace inside the house, you should use different stuff. PEX
(cross linked polyethylene) is the stuff you want.

Or polypropylene (e.g. Hep2O) which is what Christian has used :-)

There are 101 plastic piping systems on the market, but apart from
obsolete solvent-weld PVC they're either PEX or PP. Speedfit is the main
brand of PEX, Hep2O the main PP. PEX is springier and harder to thread
through holes or small gaps, especially in 22mm size. PP is easier to
handle. It is sometimes available in non-barrier form but barrier or
non-barrier are equally suitable for water. The non-barrier type is
slightly easier to handle than the barrier type. BES (www.bes.ltd.uk)
are a good online source of several types, as well as fittings and much
else besides. Worth getting their paper catalogue though as their
website is hard work.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...

15mm is hardly an excessive bore for the rising main. In any case, I
wouldn't use less than 22mm, simply because it makes upgrading to mains
pressure supply so much easier in the future, and even with a tank, it
gives
greater effective capacity due to more rapid replenishment.


I know of more than one person who has experienced a flood when a fault has
developed in a header tank, and water is admitted faster than the overflow /
warning pipe can carry it away. This should be considered if you are
arranging for rapid replenishment of a tank.

James


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What is the reason for not using the blue plastic pipe after the
stopcock.?

I am proposing to use ( already bought with fittings) it to run from
the stopcock in the kitchen to the garage, under the floorboards, to
feed the boiler. I was going to wrap some insulation to stop freezing.





Doctor Evile wrote:
"Roy" wrote in message
...
I need to replace a long length of internal lead pipe to my water
tanks in
the loft (main water tank and central heating header). The house
dates
from
1902.

The supply into the house is lead (which I will replace when funds
allow)
which is first fused onto copper (15mm) with the stop cock within
the
short
copper length and then reverts to lead when it travels up to the
loft -
sunk
into the plaster as originally installed. This is probably why
no-one in
the
past has replaced it. But its only a matter of time till a leak
occurs in
this ancient lead piping.

What's to stop me replacing the lead section to the loft with the
blue
plastic water pipe - which is cheap, flexible and easier to deal
with than
copper. I saw a length of it in B&Q the other day which I think was
15mm
bore 25m length for =A319.99. I also suspect that it behaves better
if the
pipe freezes than copper - i.e.. not bursting.

Blue plastic is for external underground only and only short lengths
as it
enmerges from the ground. There is an external version, but mainly
used for
agricultural uses.

You can use 22mm hot and cold plastic pipe. Marley Equator and Osma
Gold
are the better brands. Take 22mm right to the cold water storage
tank, Fit
a 22mm "full-bore" stop cock.



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"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
Christian McArdle wrote:

If you want to replace inside the house, you should use different stuff.
PEX
(cross linked polyethylene) is the stuff you want.

Or polypropylene (e.g. Hep2O) which is what Christian has used :-)

It is Polybutylene.

There are 101 plastic piping systems on the market, but apart from
obsolete solvent-weld PVC they're either PEX or PP.

No. Pex or Plybuyt'



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"James" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...

15mm is hardly an excessive bore for the rising main. In any case, I
wouldn't use less than 22mm, simply because it makes upgrading to mains
pressure supply so much easier in the future, and even with a tank, it
gives
greater effective capacity due to more rapid replenishment.


I know of more than one person who has experienced a flood when a fault
has
developed in a header tank, and water is admitted faster than the overflow
/
warning pipe can carry it away. This should be considered if you are
arranging for rapid replenishment of a tank.

James

Good point. A 22mm pipe to the tank and a two "Torbeck" ball-cocks will
fill up pronto. The Torbeck is either on or off, so very rapid fills and no
water noises as the common brass ball-cocks slowly shut off. You may need a
couple of large 1" plastic overflow pipes. Not expensive or difficult to
fit.

You can also fit an anti-flood device on the line. When the flow gets over
a certain rate it shuts off. It usually requires a manual re-set.



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"cubicsupport" wrote in message
ups.com...

What is the reason for not using
the blue plastic pipe after the
stopcock.?

It is made of different materials MDPE is Medium Density PolyEthelyne. It
is is not designed for excterior use.

I am proposing to use ( already bought with
fittings) it to run from the stopcock in the
kitchen to the garage, under the floorboards, to
feed the boiler. I was going to wrap some
insulation to stop freezing.

Return the stuff ASAP and get the right pipe, either pex recommended (Marley
Equator) or Polybuytlene (Osma Gold or Hep20). The none barrier
Polybuytelene is much more supple than MDPE.






Doctor Evile wrote:
"Roy" wrote in message
...
I need to replace a long length of internal lead pipe to my water
tanks in
the loft (main water tank and central heating header). The house
dates
from
1902.

The supply into the house is lead (which I will replace when funds
allow)
which is first fused onto copper (15mm) with the stop cock within
the
short
copper length and then reverts to lead when it travels up to the
loft -
sunk
into the plaster as originally installed. This is probably why
no-one in
the
past has replaced it. But its only a matter of time till a leak
occurs in
this ancient lead piping.

What's to stop me replacing the lead section to the loft with the
blue
plastic water pipe - which is cheap, flexible and easier to deal
with than
copper. I saw a length of it in B&Q the other day which I think was
15mm
bore 25m length for £19.99. I also suspect that it behaves better
if the
pipe freezes than copper - i.e.. not bursting.

Blue plastic is for external underground only and only short lengths
as it
enmerges from the ground. There is an external version, but mainly
used for
agricultural uses.

You can use 22mm hot and cold plastic pipe. Marley Equator and Osma
Gold
are the better brands. Take 22mm right to the cold water storage
tank, Fit
a 22mm "full-bore" stop cock.



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What will happen if I install the blue MDPE pipe?
Is there a technical reason for not using it



?
Doctor Evil wrote:
"cubicsupport" wrote in message
ups.com...

What is the reason for not using
the blue plastic pipe after the
stopcock.?

It is made of different materials MDPE is Medium Density
PolyEthelyne. It
is is not designed for excterior use.

I am proposing to use ( already bought with
fittings) it to run from the stopcock in the
kitchen to the garage, under the floorboards, to
feed the boiler. I was going to wrap some
insulation to stop freezing.

Return the stuff ASAP and get the right pipe, either pex recommended
(Marley
Equator) or Polybuytlene (Osma Gold or Hep20). The none barrier
Polybuytelene is much more supple than MDPE.







_________________________________________

"cubicsupport" wrote in message
oups.com...

What will happen if I install the blue MDPE pipe?
Is there a technical reason for not using it

Yes, it is meant to be supported all around as the earth does. You should
have done some research before buying. Now you know, take it back and
exchange it, and do the job properly. DIY does not mean taking short cuts.

Please do not top post.






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cubicsupport wrote:
What is the reason for not using the blue plastic pipe after the
stopcock.?

Look, you just don't, OK? ;-)

Actually - now he mentions it: why *can't* you use an exterior grade
pipe indoors? Other than the lack of range of fittings etc to go with
it, what's the difference? And 25mm MDPE is a lot cheaper than 22mm
Speedfit, innit?

David

Doctor Evil wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

Christian McArdle wrote:


If you want to replace inside the house, you should use different stuff.

PEX

(cross linked polyethylene) is the stuff you want.

Or polypropylene (e.g. Hep2O) which is what Christian has used :-)


It is Polybutylene.

D'oh! Knew PP sounded wrong, but couldn't think of the right name.

Doctor Evil wrote:

You can also fit an anti-flood device on the line. When the flow gets over
a certain rate it shuts off. It usually requires a manual re-set.

I don't think that would help: when fill valves go they usually do so by
not shutting off but don't let water through at a greater rate, so you'd
have the same rate under fault condition as refilling normally.

In article , "Lobster"
says...
cubicsupport wrote:
What is the reason for not using the blue plastic pipe after the
stopcock.?

Look, you just don't, OK? ;-)

Actually - now he mentions it: why *can't* you use an exterior grade
pipe indoors?

Heat resistance?

Doctor Evil wrote:
"cubicsupport" wrote in message
oups.com...


What will happen if I install the blue MDPE pipe?
Is there a technical reason for not using it


Yes, it is meant to be supported all around as the earth does. You should
have done some research before buying. Now you know, take it back and
exchange it, and do the job properly. DIY does not mean taking short cuts.

Well if you look at just about any farm you'll find blue MDPE running
overground and doing all sorts of contortions, much of which has been
there since the Lord created water. Same on any building site or
festival or show ground (though obviously temporary). The stuff's
amazingly tough and will stand up to all sorts of abuse. That's probably
why it's OK for direct burial in the ground where PEX and PB are too
wimpy and could be cut by sharp flints etc in the ground (it's amazingly
easy to nick PB and PEX with a craft knife and then crack it open by
bending it). So if you've already installed MDPE in your house I
wouldn't lose any sleep over it provided it's terminated correctly[1] -
it'll more than do the job. However if you haven't it'd be kosher to do
it with PEX or PB.


[1] One of our lecturers at tech regaled us with the story of when he'd
been asked to connect up to a stopcock on an MDPE incoming mains feed in
the foyer of a posh golf club being built: as soon as he got hold of the
valve it came off the pipe because whoever had fitted it hadn't used an
insert on the pipe. He's a big strong guy and he was wrestling with this
mains pipe trying to get a fitting onto it to close it off (with water
spraying all around over the lovely solid hardwood panelling etc in the
place) but couldn't do it: had to find where the main cock was and get
that turned off.

In article , Lobster
writes
cubicsupport wrote:
What is the reason for not using the blue plastic pipe after the
stopcock.?

Look, you just don't, OK? ;-)

Actually - now he mentions it: why *can't* you use an exterior grade
pipe indoors? Other than the lack of range of fittings etc to go with
it, what's the difference? And 25mm MDPE is a lot cheaper than 22mm
Speedfit, innit?

I think it's more likely because it is such a b'trd to work with compared with
the indoor grades, also, but not relevant to hidden indoor use, it doesn't
have extended resistance to UV for which you use the carbon loaded
(black) MDPE. I've used it indoors where I needed to interface to lead as
there's a really wide range of adaptor sets available to connect up to just
about any kind of pipe.

My suggestion to the O/P would be to use an interior grade if the interface
to lead is available but if not don't worry about using MDPE but use 25mm.
A wide range of fittings are available from http://www.bes.ltd.uk
--
fred

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:11:25 GMT, Lobster
strung together this:

cubicsupport wrote:
What is the reason for not using the blue plastic pipe after the
stopcock.?

Look, you just don't, OK? ;-)

Actually - now he mentions it: why *can't* you use an exterior grade
pipe indoors?

Some mistake Shirley? MDPE isn't UV protected AFAIK so it isn't
external, it's intended for direct burial.

I think some rereading of this thread is in order.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:11:25 GMT, Lobster
strung together this:

cubicsupport wrote:
What is the reason for not using the blue plastic pipe after the
stopcock.?

Look, you just don't, OK? ;-)

Actually - now he mentions it: why *can't* you use an exterior grade
pipe indoors?

Some mistake Shirley? MDPE isn't UV protected AFAIK so it isn't
external, it's intended for direct burial.


Not much UV under floorboards or in the roof is there ?

Nick

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:47:48 GMT, "nick smith"
strung together this:

Actually - now he mentions it: why *can't* you use an exterior grade
pipe indoors?

Some mistake Shirley? MDPE isn't UV protected AFAIK so it isn't
external, it's intended for direct burial.

Not much UV under floorboards or in the roof is there ?

As I said, some rereading of the thread is needed as there is some
thread drift going on. I personally don't realy care and no, there
isn't much UV in enclosed spaces so there probably won't be a problem.
However, if it were me I would use some pipe designed for the jo in
hand specifically, e.g. Hep2o.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

I don't think that would help: when fill valves go they usually do so by
not shutting off but don't let water through at a greater rate, so you'd
have the same rate under fault condition as refilling normally.

It could work on timing. A flow switch, timing device and valve next to the
stopcock. If the water flows for 20 minutes (30 minutes if any teenage
children), cut the water.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...

I don't think that would help: when fill valves go they usually do so by
not shutting off but don't let water through at a greater rate, so you'd
have the same rate under fault condition as refilling normally.

This is a strange assumption. I have known ball valves that have failed
fully open.

It could work on timing. A flow switch, timing device and valve next to
the
stopcock. If the water flows for 20 minutes (30 minutes if any teenage
children), cut the water.



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In article , "Doctor Evil"
says...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...

I don't think that would help: when fill valves go they usually do so by
not shutting off but don't let water through at a greater rate, so you'd
have the same rate under fault condition as refilling normally.

This is a strange assumption. I have known ball valves that have failed
fully open.

So the flow is the same as when it's working normally ...

This is a strange assumption. I have known ball valves that have failed
fully open.

So the flow is the same as when it's working normally ...

Not necessarily. Sometimes they can disintegrate sufficiently that they
provide much greater flow than is usually provided in the normally
functioning open state.

Christian.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
What will happen if I install the blue MDPE pipe?
Is there a technical reason for not using it

Yes, it is meant to be supported all around as the earth does.

Have you ever actually handled the stuff? It's stronger than any internal
plastic pipe. Perhaps someone knows the true reason?

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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
What will happen if I install the blue MDPE pipe?
Is there a technical reason for not using it

Yes, it is meant to be supported all around as the earth does.

Have you ever actually handled the stuff?

Oh my God, here he goes again. Duh!



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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
What will happen if I install the blue MDPE pipe?
Is there a technical reason for not using it

Yes, it is meant to be supported all around as the earth does.

Have you ever actually handled the stuff?

Oh my God, here he goes again. Duh!

So that's a no then? You really need to get some practical experience.

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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
What will happen if I install the blue MDPE pipe?
Is there a technical reason for not using it

Yes, it is meant to be supported all around as the earth does.

Have you ever actually handled the stuff?

Oh my God, here he goes again. Duh!

So that's a no

The babbling continues.....he never stops....


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Lurch wrote:

Some mistake Shirley? MDPE isn't UV protected AFAIK so it isn't
external, it's intended for direct burial.

tHE SHOP NEXT TO US HAS (BUgger) has had a length of "blue" stuff
running across the yard wall to the garage. Clipped to the wall by 3 or
4 clips it wiggles its way through unadulterated bright south facing
summer sun and the coldest of cold frosts & freezing nights.

It's now faded to a pastey light blue. Been there for well over 6 years.
not sprung a leak yet. Even though not "supported all around" or hidden
from the killer U.V.

I might go out and give it a "bend" over the next few days to check it's
state (as the shop is un-inhabited) :¬)

"GymRatZ" wrote in message
. ..
Lurch wrote:

Some mistake Shirley? MDPE isn't UV protected AFAIK so it isn't
external, it's intended for direct burial.

tHE SHOP NEXT TO US HAS (BUgger) has had a length of "blue" stuff
running across the yard wall to the garage. Clipped to the wall by 3 or
4 clips it wiggles its way through unadulterated bright south facing
summer sun and the coldest of cold frosts & freezing nights.

It's now faded to a pastey light blue. Been there for well over 6 years.
not sprung a leak yet. Even though not "supported all around" or hidden
from the killer U.V.

I might go out and give it a "bend" over the next few days to check it's
state (as the shop is un-inhabited) :¬)

A graphic example of why it should not be overground. Underground it should
in theory last 100s of years. Overground? You can see.




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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
It's now faded to a pastey light blue. Been there for well over 6
years. not sprung a leak yet. Even though not "supported all around"
or hidden from the killer U.V.

I might go out and give it a "bend" over the next few days to check
it's state (as the shop is un-inhabited) :¬)

A graphic example of why it should not be overground. Underground it
should in theory last 100s of years. Overground? You can see.

So now it suddenly doesn't have to be 'supported all round by earth' but
merely underground?

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
It's now faded to a pastey light blue. Been there for well over 6
years. not sprung a leak yet. Even though not "supported all around"
or hidden from the killer U.V.

I might go out and give it a "bend" over the next few days to check
it's state (as the shop is un-inhabited) :¬)

A graphic example of why it should not be overground. Underground it
should in theory last 100s of years. Overground? You can see.

So now it suddenly doesn't have to be 'supported all round by earth' but
merely underground?

......what is he on about? The confused one rambles again.


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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
So now it suddenly doesn't have to be 'supported all round by earth'
but merely underground?

.....what is he on about? The confused one rambles again.

Perhaps one day you'll remember what you post? Or perhaps even you don't
understand some of that nonsense?

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Doctor Evil wrote:
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...


I don't think that would help: when fill valves go they usually do so by
not shutting off but don't let water through at a greater rate, so you'd
have the same rate under fault condition as refilling normally.


This is a strange assumption. I have known ball valves that have failed
fully open.

I've seen one go like this, as against dozens just not stopping when the
tank is full. I did say _usually_.